Boot Camp Then and These Days?

[josephd]

I apologize for the rant style posts, I just refuse to sit back and see my Corps and my new Marines(while some are nasty and undisciplined) be talked down upon just because they didn't get their a$$es kicked in boot camp and need a little more attention once in the fleet or at their unit. I will gladly give it to them and trust me when is say it usually isn't pleasant

[Old Marine]

Old Marine, I see you retired in '73 also and went to work at the Depot. I'll bet a dollar to a donut you know Bill Paxton, old oorah himself. I see him every year at the annual Drill Instructor Reunion. He's a piece of work,huh?

1stSgt Mell: I do know Bill Paxton. I belong to the WCDIA also. I was on the field from 1966 until retirement in 1973. "E" Company and "G" Company then to 2d Bn. S-3, and then to RTR S-4 Chief. Used to stand many SNCO parades and I usually had Stanley Cheslock as CO of Troops and I would be Parade Adjutant. Got to move around quite a bit as Parade Adjutant.

Went to D.I. School with Bobby Biers when we were both Sgts. I also know SgtMaj. Lou and Ed Conradt. I was at the 2008 reunion and had a good time along with seeing some people I hadn't seen in years.

Semper Fi

[Covey_Rider]

Josephd, I think another void that we're having here is that you're not Active Duty. This issue is a major issue when it comes to day to day work. You may have some brighter ones in your reserve unit.

[josephd]

But have we really come so far as a society?

hahahahaha no absolutely not.

Like I said before I think the same discipline needs to be instilled, it just needs to be taught and instilled in a different way. Different how?...I really cant answer that but I do agree it needs to be changed again now because I to have noticed new Marines checking in and are all sorts of nasty. From customs and courtesies, to physical fitness, to appearance.

The main point I wanted to make in the original post was that we don't need all the "old salts"(i say this affectionately) coming in here(when I say here I mean this whole forum, not just this thread and topic) and talking down to the "new Corps" and my generation of Marines. I see it too often when another junior Marine makes a thread asking a question about something and all the older one can say/post is something about how much easier we have it now and "we did it this way back in my day".

[josephd]

Josephd, I think another void that we're having here is that you're not Active Duty. This issue is a major issue when it comes to day to day work. You may have some brighter ones in your reserve unit.

your right Sgt. but I don't know about some of them being brighter. Yes there is the handful of us that are college educated and current college students but for the most part it is a bunch of nasties that just wanna wear the uniform, claim title, play their part once a month. But have no business being a part of the tradition that most of us hold so dear.

[josephd]

JosephD, how did they get like that, though? Boot camp failed them.
Or did it?
Or it failed to adjust their pre-Corps attitude.

While boot camp may have not done what it is supposed to I don't think we can completely blame that alone. More of it comes down to the lack of respect most kids have now growing up. I hate to preach and sound like I am so much older than most but there is a huge generation gap between those of us who are in their mid to late twenties and those others who are 18-22ish.

I think we need to look more at parents, schools, and society failing most these kids/Marines now than the DI/boot camp. These kids come to boot camp with no concept of respect or even fearing someone for that matter.

[Old Marine]

Bottom line is this: Recruit Training has changed massively since I was a Recruit in 1953 to the present Recruit Training. When I was a young Pfc. I used to hear from the old salts about how rough it was back during WW II. All Marines will tell you how tough Recruit Training was in their day. SSgt. McKeon back in his day, was the blame for Recruit Training being what it is today. Before his famous incident at Pleasure Island Recruit Training was Recruit Training. There was also no such thing as a Red Flag condition because it got a little warm. If there was we sure never knew it. I was so scared as a recruit that I really didn't wake up and realize what I was doing until I graduated. Most of the time I was just doing what I was told and going through the motions.

[Swampfox]

Is boot camp easy or hard? It's just a matter of perspective. I've long thought that boot camp has gotten a lot softer. There was a discovery channel show on that dealt with Recruit Training and I was horrified when I saw recruits crying after the crucible when the DIs were handing them their EGAs. If we would've cried like that in our platoon in boot camp...Well I don't know what would happen 'cause we were to scared to cry. That being said. Obviously what the Corps is doing to train todays Marines is working because our boys are kicking @ss and taking names in Afghanistan and Iraq.

[MarinesFTW]

I would like to put my imput in here. I believe that boot camp is defentially easier now days then in the past, I wont deney that. The problem that Ive really come to notice is the Marines who talk like it wasnt hard, or someones little sister could get through it, are normally the s**t bags. I wont lie, it was easier then I thought it was, but I can guarentee there are alot of physically fit people that could not make it through it. I would put money on that. I was one of those recruits that wasn't very well known. I never messed up, was always loud, and helped out where I could but I never wanted to take the responsibility of squad leader. Only thing I was ever known for was my knowledge, which actually pi$$ed alot of my fellow recruits off, just because they hated the fact I knew what I was talking about. I have kids from my platoon added on facebook, and when other people ask them how it was, they say it was easy as pie. They were the biggest turds in our platoon and half of them dont even know that it is spelled Marine Corps with a freaking s, they always spell Corp and when corrected they tell me Im a moron and that I need to learn how to spell. All of the good Marines that Ive had the honor of being with were those who were known because they excelled and were squad leaders or guide, or they were the ones like me, who did what they were told, to the best of there ability. Just my 2 cents...

[josephd]

I would like to put my imput in here. I believe that boot camp is defentially easier now days then in the past, I wont deney that. The problem that Ive really come to notice is the Marines who talk like it wasnt hard, or someones little sister could get through it, are normally the s**t bags. I wont lie, it was easier then I thought it was, but I can guarentee there are alot of physically fit people that could not make it through it. I would put money on that. I was one of those recruits that wasn't very well known. I never messed up, was always loud, and helped out where I could but I never wanted to take the responsibility of squad leader. Only thing I was ever known for was my knowledge, which actually pi$$ed alot of my fellow recruits off, just because they hated the fact I knew what I was talking about. I have kids from my platoon added on facebook, and when other people ask them how it was, they say it was easy as pie. They were the biggest turds in our platoon and half of them dont even know that it is spelled Marine Corps with a freaking s, they always spell Corp and when corrected they tell me Im a moron and that I need to learn how to spell. All of the good Marines that Ive had the honor of being with were those who were known because they excelled and were squad leaders or guide, or they were the ones like me, who did what they were told, to the best of there ability. Just my 2 cents...

great post...

this right here goes right into what I said before, these are the nasty Marines that were raised with no concept of respect to begin with so going to boot camp for them meant nothing. Even fear wasn't an option because they have no idea what discipline even is. Boot camp was just 13 weeks of yelling and moving fast for them, not learning the reasoning behind it. This again is why I say that I don't think we can blame the DI/boot camp but rather their parents, schools, and society for not instilling even the most basic respect for something.

[josephd]

Good posts by both of you-but, if they had the shock treatment at boot camp, they would KNOW what fear is and what discipline is. That would be an attitude-shaper, whereas the absence of it is not.
We can't blame boot camp for society's ills, but we can blame boot camp for not adjusting preexisting attitudes to what they should be, and it can be done, it used to be done.
This will be shocking to some, a kind of Nazi-like statement to many PC folks, and there are plenty of them---but I would advocate the harsh treatment we got, for these kinds of recruits we're talking about, because when they graduated they would leave the attitude behind them, chances are.
Without shock treatment and some hands-on contact, there is something missing, and we keep seeing it over and over again, and yet we just cannot bring ourselves to say, yes, in the olden days recruits learned to have good attitudes.
Like many on here, I have seen several, not most, not the majority, handled in such a way that the last thing they would do is have a bad attitude. It changed them. Out of our 81 people, 3 or 4 got their asses kicked daily, and I mean brutally, but so what? They were from inner city gangs and copped a 'tude from day one, so it was beaten out of them.
Great result.

I have to disagree here, I see these kids at the recruiters office that are shipping out and the few new Marines checking in. How are you supposed to instill discipline in someone who has no concept of it to begin with. How are you supposed to shock/scare it into them when they take what they are doing as some sort of joke, and don't understand the reasoning/traditions behind why things are done a certain way.

[Old Marine]

Recruit Training is what it is and I would say that with all the information that is out there these days, young recruits can get on the computer and learn all about reccruit training, including what the Drill Instructor can and cannot do.

Used to be we did not have this information and when you joined, you did not know what was waiting for you when you got off the bus. All you did was report on the day you were told to and the Drill Instructors took it from there. We never had any yellow foot prints and I never heard anyone ask about their hair. Fact is I never heard a recruit ask about anything. We never knew what MOS we had until grad day or when we graduated from ITR, I really do not remember when we got it. When we got our MOS's they were basic MOS's.

Not one recruit that I knew in recruit training was guaranteed an MOS. What ever you got you didn't complain and you did the job in the MOS you were given. Needs of the
Corps folks.

[Mongoose]

I have to disagree here, I see these kids at the recruiters office that are shipping out and the few new Marines checking in. How are you supposed to instill discipline in someone who has no concept of it to begin with. How are you supposed to shock/scare it into them when they take what they are doing as some sort of joke, and don't understand the reasoning/traditions behind why things are done a certain way.

In my day, I can assure you, there were all types joining the Corps, or being drafted into the Corps. No one has a concept of dicipline until its instilled in him. I know that men from my time had their azzes whooped at home and at school when they screwed up. Not so today. Parents are afraid to lay their hands on their kids. In 67-68 if a boot thought it was a joke and didnt understand reasoning. And the beatings from the D.I.s didnt help. It was made plain the whole squad would suffer with him. So we also had to dish out some form of adjustment. If all failed, he went to motivation platoon, for a while. Then he recycled to a platoon just starting. If that didnt do it. He was dropped out of the Corps.

[tracs1833]

As far as how tough or lame today's boot camp is, I don't have a clue. I have heard pros and cons but I haven't seen it myself so I'll pass on how boot 'then' and 'now' compare. I graduated Parris Island 1 Apr 1969. It was physically tough. It was mentally tougher. And yes, the Drill Instructors did freely practice 'the laying on of the hands'. I personally experienced that as a fact. I know what it was like then. I was there, I experienced it first hand. I have not been to the Island since I left it, 2 Apr 1969. So, I have not seen nor experienced what is current policy. Thus, I personally prefer not to make any judgements on matters that I consider myself not up to speed on.
I will say this, however, regarding the Marines of today. They are getting the job done. They are taking the fight to the enemy. And they are still 'kicking a** and taking names'. I am proud of each and every one of them.

[josephd]

But so many folks were just now talking about how UNsquared away a lot of the newer guys are. That's where I got my info from. Why are they not squared away coming out of boot camp? That's a question for the Corps to answer, if they have one that explains it.

When you say they are "unsquared away" what do you mean?....uniform wise?...customs & courtesies?...knowledge?...physical fitness?...

The reason I ask is that I know a lot of the things that we as Marines are known for and what quite a few of the "old corps" Marines are used to have gone by the ways side for more focus on training and preparing for combat.

Field days, barracks inspections, uniform inspections, and the like while still done and are definitely a necessity have been cut back and are less strict now. Units/commands have become more concerned with getting their Marines ready for deployment and doing their job rather than be overly concerned about whether they have an unsat wall locker or their ribbons on their chucks are spaced incorrectly.

And before anyone calls me out on this info and how I know this is going on (because I am just a nasty reservist). My best friend from college is a 1st Lt. and talk with him frequently about these kinds of things.