Sensitive Issue.....

[RiveraPMO]

Brothers and sisters, I would like an honest opinion from you all.

What do you think about a Marine who was discharged with an OTH and a re-enlistment code of 4?
A Marine who, although classified as an OTH Marine, has enough documentation that proves his innocence and also proves many irregularities on behalf on the Corps, that because of these improper, unsat irregularities, this Marine is unable to move forward with his life and at the very least upgrade his discharge.
A brother of mine has fell upon some very rough times. What do you guys think. Only serious responses please. Thank you.
Semper Fi-

[spotts]

I would say he should push for the upgrade in his discharge. Right now with an OTH he is barred from VA benefits (unless hurt while on active duty and is trying for compensation) and many companies in the private sector frown on an OTH.

[josephd]

I would have to know more details on what happened and how it went down to form an opinion. Based what I know of OTH's I would say the Marine made his/her own bed and now it is their time to sleep in it. I know the circumstances can be kind of shady on the Corps' part but it could have been avoided by the Marine going through the proper channels to take care of things on their own.

[RiveraPMO]

I would say he should push for the upgrade in his discharge. Right now with an OTH he is barred from VA benefits (unless hurt while on active duty and is trying for compensation) and many companies in the private sector frown on an OTH.

According to what I know and have seen, he has attempted not once, but twice to have his discharge upgraded. He's even contacted a congressman to help with the matter. Unlike him as he wasn't ever the center of attention and still does not want to feel like something is owed to him. He is diligently looking for ways to get his discharge upgraded and re-enlistment code changed so that he may re-enlist and feel proud of his service.
We served together as MP's and I'll be the first to say that he wasn't the most absolute perfect Marine, but he was always a high 1st class PFT'er, expert rifle and pistol, he was on the SRT, the swat team for the MP's, he's got LOA's and thank you letters, volunteer awards, even letters from other Marines he served with discussing the kind of Marine he was.
Even still, he recently received his second denial letter from the NDRB. I don't know what more advice to give him which are my reasons for reaching out to you guys, OUR fellow brothers and sister Marines.
Thanks in advance to all who respond.
Semper Fi-

[spotts]

So they have denied him twice now. What exactly did he do to deserve an OTH?

[RiveraPMO]

I would have to know more details on what happened and how it went down to form an opinion. Based what I know of OTH's I would say the Marine made his/her own bed and now it is their time to sleep in it. I know the circumstances can be kind of shady on the Corps' part but it could have been avoided by the Marine going through the proper channels to take care of things on their own.

Such is not always the case, little brother. When I was in, there was a whole lot of, "Do as I say and not as I do." I'm sure that still goes on.
If a junior Marine is constantly scrutinized and setup for failure by his chain of command, kept from the resources that would assist him most in his career, then brother, I can't imagine how one should lay in the rack that was made for him.
If you made a mistake, as simple or as large as it may be, you're humiliated, pay fines and then later on down the road, you're found to have been completely innocent of the "Mistake" you supposedly made, would you appreciate having to lie in that bed as well?
Or course not. I assure you these are the points in this matter. No false bravado and only sincere best wishes for a former Marine whom I know deserves a shot at clearing his name.
Please, only serious responses please, brothers and sisters.
Semper Fi-

[TunTvrnWarrior]

He needs a good attorney familiar with military issues. I would suggest BGEN Joseph Composto USMC Retired. I used to work for him. He was fair with his Marines and has strong integrity.

[josephd]

Such is not always the case, little brother. When I was in, there was a whole lot of, "Do as I say and not as I do." I'm sure that still goes on.
If a junior Marine is constantly scrutinized and setup for failure by his chain of command, kept from the resources that would assist him most in his career, then brother, I can't imagine how one should lay in the rack that was made for him.
If you made a mistake, as simple or as large as it may be, you're humiliated, pay fines and then later on down the road, you're found to have been completely innocent of the "Mistake" you supposedly made, would you appreciate having to lie in that bed as well?
Or course not. I assure you these are the points in this matter. No false bravado and only sincere best wishes for a former Marine whom I know deserves a shot at clearing his name.
Please, only serious responses please, brothers and sisters.
Semper Fi-

Obviously you didn't take my post as a serious response. I may be "young" to the Corps but I am not wet behind the years when it comes to knowledge, common sense, and how the Corps works/doesn't work.

I know of a Marine specifically that got an OTH for something he did. Was he guilty, yes but the OTH could have been avoided by him stepping up and taking care of the aftermath through the guidance given to him. He failed to do so and let the paperwork pile up, it finally came down to an ultimatum that he start taking care of it and save face or don't and get the OTH.

But if this Marine in fact was not given the opportunities to save himself and was put in a bad position by the Corps itself then no he does not deserve to have his whole life ruined by it. And should fight it as long as it takes.

You didn't disclose this info in your first post, hence the reason for mine.

[0351Griggs]

I made Private 4 times...I was active for 3 years and inactive 3 years...My actual scores were below 2.0 - 2.0 by a looong way.

When I got my discharge papers? I had a 4.9 and 5.0 (near perfect and perfect respectivly). That brought my average scores to a 2.0 and 2.0...Just enough for an Honorable. I did not earn a good conduct medal obviously. My re-enlistment code screamed "Don't come back, just go away"

However? I got an honorable discharge I felt I did not deserve. Well? Someone did think I deserved it and fudged the paperwork.

I am a living example that the Corps picks and chooses who gets what and who dose not get(fill in the blank)....

I am forever thankful to my Battalion Commander and Base commander (a 2 star general)

So there's my story and it's factual to the letter.

[TMM54]

I think that enlisted Marines sometimes get bad deals and unwarranted les than honorable discharges. Last week I read a very sad tale of a lance corporal that went to the credit union to cash a check, and because of some very fast and underhanded dealing by the credit union manager, and the cashier, they made their books appear as if he stole $2,500.00. He was charged and put into the brig for six months, given a bad conduct discharge, and went on his way. Four years after the fact the Navy and Marine Corps Court of Appeals got to the bottom of what happened, overturned the man's discharge, etc. But what happened to the panel of officers that found him guilty?'What happened to the military judge that oversaw this travesty? What happened to the officer who convened the court martial and ruined this young Marine's life for many years? Nothing is what happened to them. They got their Legions of Merit and commendations for doing a great job. Sometimes this loyalty business does not go both ways, that is, the leadership forget about the enlisted Marines.

So I am all for helping your friend upgrade his discharge. Maybe he deserve dbetterin the first place.

Semper Fi, Tom

[RiveraPMO]

I made Private 4 times...I was active for 3 years and inactive 3 years...My actual scores were below 2.0 - 2.0 by a looong way.

When I got my discharge papers? I had a 4.9 and 5.0 (near perfect and perfect respectivly). That brought my average scores to a 2.0 and 2.0...Just enough for an Honorable. I did not earn a good conduct medal obviously. My re-enlistment code screamed "Don't come back, just go away"

However? I got an honorable discharge I felt I did not deserve. Well? Someone did think I deserved it and fudged the paperwork.

I am a living example that the Corps picks and chooses who gets what and who dose not get(fill in the blank)....

I am forever thankful to my Battalion Commander and Base commander (a 2 star general)

So there's my story and it's factual to the letter.

Thanks for sharing your story, brother.
It is definitely true to the letter when you say, the Corps picks and chooses. I'm sure we've all known a few SSgt and GySgt "Brownnose." Lol!

But, in all seriousness, the Corps is a great organization with no so great people. Sometimes, I'm surprised at how some Marines even passed boot camp. But, fact of the matter is Marines should never let a brother/sister Marine suffer the way he is which is why I have gone out of my way to help with whatever I can.
It's like the CMC says, "You may not be in uniform, but if you graduated Parris Island, San Diego or Quantico, you'll always be a Marine. Just in a different phase of your life." He may not be deployed to a battle field right now, but rest assured that he is definitely in a war zone.
Semper FI-

[RiveraPMO]

I think that enlisted Marines sometimes get bad deals and unwarranted les than honorable discharges. Last week I read a very sad tale of a lance corporal that went to the credit union to cash a check, and because of some very fast and underhanded dealing by the credit union manager, and the cashier, they made their books appear as if he stole $2,500.00. He was charged and put into the brig for six months, given a bad conduct discharge, and went on his way. Four years after the fact the Navy and Marine Corps Court of Appeals got to the bottom of what happened, overturned the man's discharge, etc. But what happened to the panel of officers that found him guilty?'What happened to the military judge that oversaw this travesty? What happened to the officer who convened the court martial and ruined this young Marine's life for many years? Nothing is what happened to them. They got their Legions of Merit and commendations for doing a great job. Sometimes this loyalty business does not go both ways, that is, the leadership forget about the enlisted Marines.

So I am all for helping your friend upgrade his discharge. Maybe he deserve dbetterin the first place.

Semper Fi, Tom

Tom-

When he stood before the Colonel to receive NJP, he was represented by a SNCOIC and OIC who were brand new to PMO. When the Colonel asked them if they would say anything on his behalf to help make the Colonel make his decision of punishment or lack of punishment, you know what these Marines (A GySgt and a Captain) said, "No sir. We have nothing positive to say about this Marine.)
Instead of giving him the benefit of the doubt and at the very least, have some integrity and say, they just checked into battalion a few days/weeks ago and they haven't really gotten to experience this Marines work ethic or personal personality. Why would they say that, right?? I mean, they got rockers and brass, right? Just forget that you once were a junior Marine looking for your Gunny or Captain to pull your ass out of the firing line. Even if it meant he's gonna kick your ass for it later.
I don't know, man. It just seems real screwed up.
Semper Fi-

[Sgt Leprechaun]

If he's been denied twice that is probably a done deal, then. The only way an OTH gets overturned, generally, is if there is material fact that warrants it. In other words, it was issued in error through some sort of screwup etc.

If he was convicted of something, (and unless it's overturned as above) there isn't much that he can do.

Just my worthless opinion.

[RiveraPMO]

If he's been denied twice that is probably a done deal, then. The only way an OTH gets overturned, generally, is if there is material fact that warrants it. In other words, it was issued in error through some sort of screwup etc.

If he was convicted of something, (and unless it's overturned as above) there isn't much that he can do.

Just my worthless opinion.

Never convicted of anything. And, as I mentioned previously, has more than enough evidence to prove that his NJP was completely unsat.

[0351Griggs]

If he's been denied twice that is probably a done deal, then. The only way an OTH gets overturned, generally, is if there is material fact that warrants it. In other words, it was issued in error through some sort of screwup etc.

If he was convicted of something, (and unless it's overturned as above) there isn't much that he can do.

Just my worthless opinion.

Your on the money...You can't retry the case from what I understand.

It basicly goes in front of some panel and they see if the judge ruled on fact of law. Don't give up, but, it's a done deal imo.