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"Sgt. Manuel Loggins Jr. was shot to death during the predawn hours Tuesday under largely unexplained circumstances in a parking lot at San Clemente High School."
http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lano...ine-shot-.html
http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lano...fs-deputy.html
http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la...0,584000.story
I agree Dave, the thing that jumped out to me was the fact that it was his own children and he was unarmed. Really makes you wonder what the commands were. And how the kids were behaving. Screaming in fear or not? We'll probably never get the whole story on this one either.
We just had a similar event in Reading Pa. near me. Older guy riding his bike killed a kid. Turned out the GROUP of kids had mugged/ robbed another older person earlier that same day. Then thier luck ran out. Makes you wonder how the legal system finds time to go after the Ryan Jerome's of the world.Quote:
Originally Posted by USMC1963
The kids in particular Dave, and it seems form the report Sgt. Loggins kids were nearby when the shooting occured.
Waiting on the 'rest of the story' to come out on this one.
Yeah, this one has caught my eye,, I can't see how it was justified, but I'll wait for more info before i totally blow my lid. WTF? :mad:
RIP, Marine
This is an update (of sorts) on the shooting. The last one was posted just 3 hours ago.
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/n...,2549565.story
http://www.policeone.com/officer-sho...ay-itself-out/
:flag:
Justified the deputies killing of this MARINE???????????????????????????????????????????? Is this going to be a "Cover-Up"??????????????????????????????????????????????? ????????
One thing for sure...... Orange County SO is in the "cover my a** mode!" You can bet on that!
i hope you will keep us all posted on this,, because there are two different pictures being painted by both the police and Camp Pen..and i tend to go with the people who worked with him everyday they would be the first to see a change in him....
What would Chesty do? Would he load up the division and truck them to San Clemente? Just a thought.
Today's update - 7 hours ago...
http://www.bellinghamherald.com/2012...-deputies.html
Note this: "First, the Sheriff's Department explained the shooting by saying the deputy had feared for his life, but did not say why the veteran lawman believed he was in danger. Then, as outrage mounted, the department announced the deputy had feared - not for himself - but for the safety of Loggins' 14 and 9 year old children ???"
He fired into Loggins' white GMC Yukon, fatally wounding him as two of his young daughters sat in a back seat.
Really worrried about the kids, huh?
Attachment 9413
Can't wait to see what the next version, as to what happened out there, is!
Whitney "Who?" LOL
makes you wonder,,, you see in the dark,, a very large Man getting into his suv,, the police draws his gun and starts screaming to get out of the car and on the ground,, that gets the kids scared and screaming,, the deputy gets nervous and the whole thing spirals out of control,,, and if the gate was normally open he might have just been tooling through there and crashed the gate before he new what happened,, just saying something ain't right here
http://standupforamerica.files.wordp...s-bad-here.pngQuote:
Originally Posted by irpat54
well i'm just thinking,, cos it happened to me but with a little different spin,, when me and my first wife were home on leave,, in my Red and Black 69 fast back,, i had stopped cos i hear a noise in the front of my car,, so i got out to check it
as i was getting back in my car, one foot in and the other out,, there were two cop cars that pulled up front and back,, of us,, and one said freeze so i froze the other said get down,, so i started to do that and the other got who said freeze got nervous i guess, and i heard the hammer cock back,, my wife was yelling at the cops to calm down,, one cop yelling get down the other to freeze and no one could make since of the whole thing
after they had cuffed me and stuffed me,,( as sheriff coltrain would say) i found out that my car was just like the one used in a arm bank robbery,, but the confusion was unbelievable,, and could have easily gotten out of hand,, i mean what if they had thought that my wife was in danger,, messy at times,,,
and i am just saying maybe the officer made a mistake and thought he was a danger,, with all the confusion,, make me wonder a lot
I know i always try to give law Enforcement the benefit of the doubt,, but in this case as in the case with me and my first wife,, things just don't add up as to what the union is trying to portray and what the Corps is saying about the man,,,Quote:
Wouldn't it be great if this country of ours went back to operating by simple everyday plain old common sense?
I think that's gone forever, though.
and yes those days are gone for good,, to bad
ya but two things,, why after all these years that the gate was open,, was it closed,, and why wasn't the cop cam in the car running,,,
Orange Co. SO is in "CYA" mode big-time! If this was a cut and dry "justified shoot," there would be nothing to hide! The biggest discrepancy is the lack of a police car video. If the situation went down like the officer has stated; ie: loud noise, early morning hours, behind a school, suspicious vehicle at the scene...... why was the video on the police car not activated? HELLO...... common sense should have told the officer to initiate the video! So far, there is absolutely no "reliable" reason there was not a video! There are two sides to every story, and I'm sure we'll never know the exact reason(s) this happened the way it did. The Marine was killed at the scene, so all we'll ever have is the officer's side of the story... and it's been changed at least twice since the initial reporting of the incident. This crap "I shot in fear of the lives of the children" doesn't cut it though! The kids were in the car... and shots were fired into the vehicle? That just "doesn't wash!" I've been in law enforcement for 30+ years and I am appalled at the actions taken by this officer to "stop the threat!"
i agree,, like i said in earlier post,, when my first wife and i were stopped while we were both home on leave the confusion from two cops telling us to do two different things was massive,,, i can see how the Cop must have felt,, dark area,, big guy in a dark area,, the stress level must have been off the chart,, with us back in Michigan in 76 there was a armed robbery and my car a 69 fast back was like the one used in it, but still it was a mass of confusion
You say you have 30+ years in law enforcement so I find your response somewhat confusing to me. First, are we even sure the vehicle was equipped with a video system? Even in this day not all police vehicles have video. Second, did you really turn on your video everytime you went to check something out or went on a call? There's usally video on traffic stops because it is automatically turned on with the lights. You can turn it on manually, but I really don't know of anywhere that does that for every call so I can easily see why there wouldn't be any available.Quote:
Originally Posted by SGT RED
Also I believe from what I've read that the deputy didn't know if the children were supposed to be with this suspect who was acting irrationally. Now I can see an argument being made for getting the children out when he was away from the car, but at the point where he is ignoring commands and putting the car in drive with them inside it's to late for the deputy at that point can't go back and fix that mistake. Also you say it like shooting into the car put the children at risk. It may very well have, but I don't believe any of us no the postioning of the children in the car, the suspect, and the deputy. It's very possible that the children were clear from the deputy's vantage point.
Now I'm not saying that the shooting was a good shoot or a bad shoot. I am just wondering why you seem so willing to just make all these assumptions that the officer was wrong when 1. the investigation isn't complete and 2. you weren't there and in that deputys shoes. As a cop you gotta know how everyone is always so willing to assume the officer is in the wrong. I personally find it disappointing that another officer just assumes the same without even waiting for the investigation to be completed.
Just food for thought. We recently had a case in my area where a father kidnapped his own children. The father is to have no contact with the mother or children, is known to be violent and mentally unstable. The mother calls the cops and they show up as the father is about to leave her home. He sees the cops, jumps in his truck, and against orders given by the officers on scene throws it in drive and takes off almost hitting someone as he does. The officers give chase and a pursuit ensues with speeds reaching above 100 mph. The father eventually wrecks out at over 100 mph with the children inside and not in any seatbelts. By the grace of God they survived, but the ending to that could have been very different. Now what if officers on scene would have had an oppritunity and had taken the suspect out before the chase even began?
Now just assuming what has been said by the deputy is true (again I am assuming, not saying it is), put yourself in this his shoes. This man is acting irrationally and not obeying commands given by you. He has just crashed his vehicle thru a closed fence into a school. There are children in the car that you don't know if they are supposed to be there and they are crying. The suspect igores your orders and puts his vehicle in drive and begins to leave.
My point is this. Let the investigation run its course before we tie this deputy (Who was also a Marine) to the stake and light the fire.
we have one account of him acting irrationally,,and when you see a vehicle and are going to confront a suspect, you always turn your camera on to cover you own butt,,i would find it very hare to believe that an officer alone would be in a vehicle without a cameraQuote:
supposed to be with this suspect who was acting irrationally
the police union started the weirdness by trying to demean the dead Marine,, which prompted something unheard of and that was the Commanding Officer for whom he was under to get involved,, to repudiate the claim made by the UnionQuote:
My point is this. Let the investigation run its course before we tie this deputy (Who was also a Marine) to the stake and light the fire.
Well, believe it. While all of our patrol cars do now have cameras. It wasn't very long ago that they didn't and we've always patrolled solo. I also still know of some places that have units w/o cameras. As for always turning it on, I can see the argument for doing it, but I don't and I'm not aware of anyplace that does require that. Different areas of the country do work differently though so I'm not arguing on wither it's a good idea. I'm just saying it's not that outlandish that there isn't video.We are required to have every contact recorded either on the on car camera or on our personal recorders. Somethimes things do happen so fast that the recorder isn't turned on. Also depending on the location there is no guarantee a in-car video would of even captured the event although it would capture the audio as long as the deputy was wearing the mic.
http://abclocal.go.com/kabc/story?se...nty&id=8539913Quote:
Originally Posted by boomer56328
Read the above article - Shortly after the incident, this story came out in the news. Go to paragraph 9 "The entire incident was caught on the patrol car's dashboard camera."
You've asked "Are we even sure the vehicle was equipped with a video system?" Who knows for sure? The stories have changed 2-3 times, but this article states there is a video! Your second question "Did you really turn on your video every time you went to check something out or went on a call? Absolutely! The camera was activated automatically whenever the blue lights were on, and my department's S.O.P. was to activate the camera system always where there were exigent circumstances. Even if we were out of view, the video would be recorded!
In reference to shooting inside the vehicle, you state "It's very possible that the children were clear from the deputy's vantage point?" Clear…? Is there such a thing as clear when you shoot into an area the size of a vehicle compartment when there are children inside? Ever hear of a ricochet?
Further, not once have I condemned the officer's actions, except for the fact that I have remarked about his ridiculous statement that he shot the driver out of fear for the lives for the children. If you remember, his first statement was that he was in fear for his own life! I have stated that Orange County SO is in a "CYA" (cover your a**) mode… and that's only because of the conflicting statements from them, the deputies, and the news articles. Incidentally, our S.O.P. mandates that a PIO (Public Information Officer) shall be the only representative from the agency to release information to the press. There should have been one, and only one, press release given until the facts were straight! Looks like there's a "dog and pony show" going on there now; that's why there is even more confusion as to the facts!
And, as you say: FOOD FOR THOUGHT: Your very last sentence is "Let the investigation run its course before we tie this deputy (Who was also a Marine) to the stake and light the fire. No matter what the deputy did, whether his actions were honorable or not, he is, and always will be a Marine!
The one question that keeps popping into my mind is this.
If the cop fired because he was worried about the screaming kids. What were the kids screaming?
"DADDY", "DADDY DON'T", "DADDY"... whatever is all I can think of.
And I have to wonder if shooting that close to the children was prudent or not.
It's just a crappy situation.
Agreed,, I hope things get cleared up soon,,, I feel for the family of the dead Marine and for the Deputy as well,, I can only imagine what is going through his head...Quote:
Originally Posted by SGT RED
An educational fund has been created for Loggins’ family by The Heritage of San Clemente Foundation and the San Clemente Chamber of Commerce. Contributions can be made through any branch of Farmer & Merchants Bank and donors can also mail their contributions directly to San Clemente Chamber of Commerce, c/o of Sgt. Loggins Childrens' Memorial Fund, 1100 North El Camino Real, San Clemente, Calif. 92672. Checks can be made out to: Sgt. Loggins Childrens' Memorial Fund. Contributions are not tax-deductible. For more information, email heritage@marinemoument.org.
Read more: San Clemente Times - Deputy in Shooting ID d Friends of Marine Tell of Christian Man
http://www.sanclementetimes.com/view...ance=eye_on_sc
see this is what is driving me nuts here,, how is it that one person (Deputy) says he (the dead Marine) was acting strange,, but the whole community and the Base says he was a completely different person,,, this is the stuff that make me crazy,,,,,, er
People do funny things.Quote:
Originally Posted by irpat54
My department had a shooting where officers responded on a prowler call. They found the prowler, who immediately attacked an officer with a knife. It turned out to be a big cake frosting knife.
Shots fired, the suspect ran down the street, turning with his hands together like he had a gun. More shots and the guy finally collapses, shot five times. He lived - barely. He had no gun.
When I interviewed him at the hospital a couple of days later, he admitted freely that he never intended to hurt a cop (hence the frosting knife), but was attempting suicide by cop. He was disappointed that they weren't better shots, but held no animosity. He admitted the same story to the court appointed shrinks. He was actually a friendly guy with a lot of problems.
All of his family and friends were shocked that he tried such a thing.
We had four citizen witnesses and four officers all telling essentially the same story as the shot guy told. He copped a plea to felonious assault and got court-ordered in-patient psychiatric treatment.
Now, the funny thing was the four officers fired about 30 shots between them. A parked car got shot up some and a bullet hit a house, breaking a window and lodging in a door frame. The TV news people were going door-to-door trying to get people to bad mouth the cops for shooting so much. One guy told them he would be happy to buy the department ammunition to replace what they fired. The city was smart and was on top of getting damaged property repaired without quibble, and the whole neighborhood was on our side.
The media also tried to turn it into a racial issue as the shot prowler was black and the four cops white. Except the house he was prowling around was owned by a black family. Ooopsy. Then the suicide-by-cop story came out. Double-ooopsy.
Moral to this story is: Things aren't necessarily what they appear to be at first.
that may be true,, but in this case,, the police story changes,, then the union tries to bad mouth the dead Marine, and everyone and i mean everyone tells of a loving and very friendly Man,,,now i understand the Officers have a very different time as i noted earlier,, but why would he take his kids with him to commit suicidal,, and why would he take his Bibles one for him and two more for his kids,,it would seam to me that in this case, imo, it looks like they are dragging there feet over a mistake,,that is the impressions i am getting
"Was" was a poor word choice.Quote:
Originally Posted by SGT RED
Again, I'm not going to debate wither it is a good idea to turn your camera on every time you get out of the car. All I was saying is that it isn't a universal practice. It apprears that there is video anyway.
Also, I have heard of a ricochet. Bad things can happen wherever a shooting occurs. You have to weigh the risks involved with the shooting vs. letting the suspect escape and it has to be done in a split second. Perhaps the deputy made a poor choice, but just because there were kids in the car doesn't mean a shooting isn't justified.
It is also our policy to have our PIO or a representitive designated by command to do all the talking to the media. You're right and this should have been done here.
When I read your post the tone I was getting from it was that you were condemning the officer's actions. If I misunderstood your post then I do apologize. I was having a bad night and was feeling kinda ****y, so again I do apologize if I misinterperated.
It's not hard to let the "Press" influence our thoughts; sometimes they seem to enjoy doing that. Just reading the story of the shooting, and knowing that a Marine was shot and killed in front of his children, as well as finding out the Deputy who shot him is also a Marine, leaves us all with *****y feelings. The lives of the families of the fallen Marine and the Deputy are forevermore shattered whether the shooting was justified or not. But, I'm glad we as Marine brothers are on common ground, and at times can agree to disagree with each other in a tolerable manner. We'll probable never know the full story, and like the families involved we'll just have to deal with it in our own way.Quote:
Originally Posted by boomer56328
SEMPER FI! :flag:
The widow of Camp Pendleton Marine Sgt. Manuel Loggins Jr. has delivered a healthy baby girl named Hope, according to the Associated Press. It was a name the couple chose for the baby before Loggins’ death at the hands of an Orange County Sheriff’s deputy on February 7th.
Family friend James Webb told the AP that baby Hope was born 3:30 Sunday afternoon at Naval Hospital, Camp Pendleton.
Loggins family attorney Brian T. Dunn confirmed the baby’s birth to the Orange County Register:
http://homepost.kpbs.org/2012/03/sgt...-to-baby-hope/
And some more in this article:
http://sanclementetimes.com/view/ful...=guest_opinion
the press still don't sound to sympathetic to the Sheriff Dept do they,, i hope you keep us posted on this thanks,,,
Guys, from what I have heard, this Sgt drove his SUV thru a schools locked gate, was very upset? at his children, traffic stop/request b-up. they arrived, and removed the children from the SVU, this Sgt, was just out side the drivers door. became fxxking upset about his children being removed and away, separated, ( we all know the routine) when, ( keep in mind) this guys 6'3" 260 approx. Dep 5'9" approx 185, jumps into the truck side ways, as if going under the seat. Sad for everyone, the Sgt, for being as he was, the kids. being ****ed off at their Dad, the 4 officers, one who had to take a live, and still wondering why, is off for stress. Messed, his mine up. No guys, not taking sides, I retired from this Dept. And still have friendsworking. Bad, all the way, Loss a Marine brother, Losing a young man that had a very promiseing career. Children who will never forget, but, the 5 to 10 million they receive will help.
Semper Fi.
Cando
Amen Brother, Semper Fi.Quote:
Originally Posted by irpat54
Amen, Zulu 36,
Semper Fi.
Cando