Pre-M16 Rifle Qual, how things have changed

[249gunner]

Lets stop with the obama complaints for a moment and talk about the basic skills of a Marine grunt.

So with the switch to 5.56, our marksmanship standards have been lowered by a 100 yds and targets were enlarged and simplified.
http://www.bobrohrer.com/sea_stories/service_rifle_qualification_courses.pdf

some people cant hit a B-MOD from the 500yd line, Imagine using a 1903 and aiming in on a 20in bullseye from the 600...

The concept behind the Skirmisher Course is truly interesting, Im suprised it didnt stick around. Our current Table 2 isnt too impressive. Sure it builds muscle memory like Tables 3 and 4 but no running is required. Loading the rifle and adjusting the sights accordingly while on the run is a challenge...

[kenrobg30]

I took the time, to read every word, GUNNER. I'll probably read it a few more times. That is the kind of info I like to see. (No politics) :marine: Sempre Fidelis !! Ken

[kenrobg30]

when are you going to get around to the M-1 Garand, and the M-1 & 2 Carbine. :evilgrin: S/F!! Ken

[Zulu 36]

when are you going to get around to the M-1 Garand, and the M-1 & 2 Carbine. :evilgrin: S/F!! Ken

Shot them all and I loved the M-1. Even shot a match with one as an Air Guardsman. I was an M-14 recruit though and did ITR with the M-16A1.

[Garyius]

I purchased an M-1 through the CMP program back when they charged $300 and let you request whatever you wanted. I asked for a NM H&R, and the sights and op rod are NM (not the barrel, though, but...

[249gunner]

Im leaning more towards the M14 eventough the Springfield/Garand nostalgia comes out on top for us Marines. The M14 is an impressive rifle in almost every way (except no pistol grip on reg stocks) but it didnt win us much glory. Offcourse it got cheated out of it's spotlight during Vietnam.

I remember hearing how grunts in love with the Springfields mucked up the mechanisms of the Garands during testing just so they could hang onto their 1903s. But ended up sleeping with the Garands on Guadalcanal without a complaint.

Slow fires with bolt actions are hard enough but nothing compares with having to reload your rifle during the 60-70 sec rapid fire with stripper clips and then literally sight in after every individual shot.

Glad you guys liked the article but I cant take credit for it, I just stumbled upon it.

[The DUKE]

Went through Boot with the M-14,
Qualified sharpshooter,
all the way to the Nam,
when they were saying I had to give it up,
I was ****ed as all get out,
what was I going to do with this little black rifle?
I got to keep my M-14,
through much haranguing and I guess you could say whining and having a tantrum,
but damn I qualified with this weapon and I didn't know squat about the new one and back in the day all I heard were bad things about the carbon, the gas tubes, the freeze on when in rapid fire mode,
I never let go of my M-14 and made it through with it still clutched in my grubby little mitts.
I have shot any and all military rifles all the way back to the 30-40 Krag ,
but I wouldn't trade that M-14 for nothing,
sentimental maybe,
if you recall, or have any photos of the M-16 when she first came out,
damn that thing was ugly and scrawny looking,
looked like it would break in two if you looked at it hard,
but that M-14 was what I felt the most at ease with and I knew in my hard heart that it would never let me down.

[kenrobg30]

The first Rifle I ever fired, was a .44/40 Winchester Saddle Gun (Carbine). That was when learned all about RECOIL !! That sucker killed on both ends ! I was 14 at the time, and had never handled anything but a .20g Shotgun. I learned to love the M-1, but I fired Sharp-Shooter with it. I just couldn't force myself to make Expert.It took me a long time, to decide whether or not I liked the Carbine, and I'm still not sure. My strong point was the Colt .45 semi-automatic wrist buster. I still like shooting the .03. :thumbup: S/F!! Ken

[249gunner]

anyone know what exact model of the 1903 the grunts at Bellau wood used?

[249gunner]

Some interesting info.

http://www.ww2gyrene.org/assets/campmatthews_3.jpg
Camp Mathews

"To qualify as an expert riflemen, the Marine had to shoot a score of 306 or better. 290 or better qualified the Marine as a rifle sharpshooter. The minimum qualifying score of 240 earned the Marine a marksman badge. Below that and the Marine was unqualified, called an "unq."

50 pts of difference in marksman and sharpshooter and 16 between sharpshooter and expert.



"Before World War II, each battalion-size unit was required by Marine Corps regulations to ensure that at least 95% of assigned troops attained a yearly qualification of marksman or higher. For the individual Marine, an expert rating meant an extra $5 per month, and sharpshooters received an extra $3 per month."

[R Landry]

We did it ass backwards at PISC in the summer of 1965. Booted and qualified (sharpshooter) with M-14 but they gave us M-1s for ITR. Loved both rifles.

When I was back home in my reserve unit, I gave a lesson to the troops on the M-16, even though our unit had never been issued M-16s. The Army Reserve unit in New Iberia, LA refused to loan me one. So I went to the National Guard unit next door (in Lafayette, LA) and they let me use one (I had to sign a bunch of forms). No knowing **** about the M-16, I just pointed out some features in the rifle, told them the history of the rifle, and held it up for the troops to see. It felt like a big toy to me compared to our M-14s. We had a regular Marine sergeant in our unit who actually used a M-16 in combat in 'Nam and I then turned over the M-16 to him for the conclusion of my talk. Then, I quickly returned it to the National Guard unit. From 1965 through 1971, my reserve unit stuck with the M-14.

[CommNav]

They use M-16's now? I can't imagine firing a Mattel for qual after firing the M-14! I only made Sharpshooter but I never got Maggie's drawers, either.

[R Landry]

I was on target to get expert. Day before qualification, someone knocked my rifle off the bench and my front sight got jarred off center. **** - my windage was shot. I called the PMI over and we spent about an hour doing some prone and sitting rapid fire to move my groups back on center. Never could get them quite right. Next day I shot a 217 -- three shy of expert. Rats!!!!

[BruneauJA]

Loved the M-14, shot Expert with it.
Never liked the M-16, could only qualify (just) as Sharpshooter with it.
Seems to me the 16 was more of a "spray and pray" weapon

[pocatellodave]

I qualified with the M-14 in Boot camp.Shot 216,and missed expert by 4 points.Near the end of my enlistment,I had to qualify with an M-1 as that's what we had for a rifle on the U.S.S. Kitty Hawk CVA 63.With no P.M.I. screaming at me,I relaxed and shot 240!We also had to qualify with the .45,and I shot expert with that as well.
In my opinion the M-14, and M-1 were better weapons than the Mickey Mouse 5.56 that replaced them.Probably going to get some heat for that statement,but that's how I feel.Could one actually hit anything at 500 yards with the new rifle?I can recall the "Dingers" hitting the bull at 1K yards with their .03's
Amazing how I can recall numbers like I do while in the Corps,but forget to pick up a loaf of bread at the grocery store.The wife says I have selective hearing and memory!I can reel off my service number w/o a hitch,but remembering my rifle number is a no go!
I'm sure many of the tactics and weaponry have changed over the years,so don't be to harsh on an old Marine recalling how we done things and for having opinions about better rifles.
LOL!
Semper Fi

[sparkie]

Qualled with the 14 and I miss it today. I do still shoot the round out of an Enfield 308, and still shoot at 500 yds. Enjoy it very much.

It was a rumor that the 16 stock was made by Matell,,, Was that true?

[kenrobg30]

I qualified with the M-14 in Boot camp.Shot 216,and missed expert by 4 points.Near the end of my enlistment,I had to qualify with an M-1 as that's what we had for a rifle on the U.S.S. Kitty Hawk CVA 63.With no P.M.I. screaming at me,I relaxed and shot 240!We also had to qualify with the .45,and I shot expert with that as well.
In my opinion the M-14, and M-1 were better weapons than the Mickey Mouse 5.56 that replaced them.Probably going to get some heat for that statement,but that's how I feel.Could one actually hit anything at 500 yards with the new rifle?I can recall the "Dingers" hitting the bull at 1K yards with their .03's
Amazing how I can recall numbers like I do while in the Corps,but forget to pick up a loaf of bread at the grocery store.The wife says I have selective hearing and memory!I can reel off my service number w/o a hitch,but remembering my rifle number is a no go!
I'm sure many of the tactics and weaponry have changed over the years,so don't be to harsh on an old Marine recalling how we done things and for having opinions about better rifles.
LOL!
Semper Fi

Any dedicated shooter I've ever talked to, has said, the only difference between the the M-1, and the .03, was, the M-1 was too noisy to be a good sniper rifle. The noise of the bolt Opening and closing, gives away the snipers position. Range and accuracy are almost identical. I wouldn;t know, I wasn't a sniper. I'll be back later, company just came in.
S/F!! Ken

[pocatellodave]

Gunner249 may I ask when you served in the Corps?The part about getting more pay for good shooting wasn't happening when I was in.If you didn't qualify....and we had one guy that didn't,your life became really miserable.The whole platoon paid for his inability to shoot well.Duck walking up a hill at camp Geiger was one of the punishments doled out.We didn't see a cigarette for a long time as well.I really felt sorry for Stringer,as he was a real decent type of guy.
You want to see some bad shooting?We had to pull butts for some Army units when we were at Fort Lewis,WA,and you talk about crappy shots.The targets were full of rock hits from missing low,and from what I seen no one could have qualified for a "toilet Bowel"!!!Give me a Marine with his rifle anytime!
Semper Fi

[kenrobg30]

We were working our way up to another ridge one sunny day in Korea. Iwas with the Battalion CO, as his radioman. One of the units, passing the Command Group, were two Sniper teams. One of the Snipers, was a Native American, who I knew, and had talked to frequently. He was carrying am M-1 with a scope. The other sniper was armed the same. The 'N,A." waved to me,With a big grin on his face, and gave me a thumbs up. It was his first combat mission, as a sniper. They went on their way, and we went on to our position. When the battle for the hill ended,and we had the real estate, the Command group moved up the hill. As we were going up the hill, I saw the two snipers again. They were sitting among the wounded, waiting to be carried to the rear. The "N.A." was hit by a 'Burp-gun', in both legs.He sat there in tears. The other sniper, was hit in his chest, arm and Leg. I've always wondered, why those two men were close enough to the fire-fight, to get hit with a 'Burp-gun. Just another memory. It seemed to fit the thread.:flag: S/F!! Ken

[249gunner]

Gunner249 may I ask when you served in the Corps?The part about getting more pay for good shooting wasn't happening when I was in.If you didn't qualify....and we had one guy that didn't,your life became really miserable.The whole platoon paid for his inability to shoot well.Duck walking up a hill at camp Geiger was one of the punishments doled out.We didn't see a cigarette for a long time as well.I really felt sorry for Stringer,as he was a real decent type of guy.
You want to see some bad shooting?We had to pull butts for some Army units when we were at Fort Lewis,WA,and you talk about crappy shots.The targets were full of rock hits from missing low,and from what I seen no one could have qualified for a "toilet Bowel"!!!Give me a Marine with his rifle anytime!
Semper Fi

I think you may have misunderstood me. The pre-WW2 era Marines were paid a couple bucks extra every month for shooting expert. Once WW2 kicked off the whole thing stopped I think. They figured that money could go towards making more ammunition for the PFC on a Pacific island, rather than in his wallet.

I totally believe you on the Army's marksmanship abilities.
We qualified on an army entry level sniper range at one time with our M4s.
What they need sandbags, hi power optics and a 7.62 bolt action rifle for, we can do with carbines.


Here's some more old Corps pictures (Parris Island)
http://cache1.asset-cache.net/xc/82502297.jpg?v=1&c=IWSAsset&k=2&d=B5384F3B2A5A98422F5E11BD919F4F16CF2CCD5210B3B7CB 71ED69EFE1048615E30A760B0D811297

http://www.ww2gyrene.org/assets/bootcamp_9.jpg

http://www.hq224usmc.com/resources/rifle+range.jpg

[249gunner]

Do any of you new Parris Island Marines remember what the farthest right range was called? I may be wrong but my guess is Inchon, closest to the infamous Ribbon Creek.

[ChuckH]

Had the M-14 in boot and ITR... qualified expert, got to Nam and thought the M-16 was a toy. They sent me to NCO school in Oki and I'll be danged if I didnt set the range record with it. I think that was in 69...

[R Landry]

The first range is Inchon, followed by Starlite, Chosin, Hue City, and Khe Sanh. The pistol ranges are named Pusan and Mount Suribachi.

[pocatellodave]

249gunner I understand now,My mistake.Your right the "Doggies" couldn't hit the ground if they dropped the rifle!
Semper Fi

[LandsNGrooves]

http://www.valhallaarmory.com/v/vspfiles/assets/images/grippod-mounted.jpg


Just to stir the pot. . . .

this monday, the WPNS BN Co and Gunner,Stone Bay, approved the grippod bipod to be used in the prone during table 1.

http://videogum.com/img/thumbnails/photos/you_mad.jpg

[249gunner]

how fckn hard can it be??
way to bastardize what we take most pride in



http://bluejacket.com/usmc/images/ww2_marines_paris-is_c1942_loc.jpg

http://bluejacket.com/usmc/images/ww2_marine_m1.jpg

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/211/456771787_0886d3934e.jpg

[249gunner]

M16A4s at bootcamp, Its already happening

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash2/hs158.ash2/41233_421371072443_157348267443_5002620_3025847_n. jpg

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc4/hs383.snc4/44606_421371432443_157348267443_5002627_8175500_n. jpg

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash2/hs158.ash2/41233_421371052443_157348267443_5002616_7693558_n. jpg

WTF

[pocatellodave]

Gunner your pics really bring back the memories.I had forgot about blacking the sights.Thanks for the memories my friend!
Semper Fi

[249gunner]

Gunner your pics really bring back the memories.I had forgot about blacking the sights.Thanks for the memories my friend!
Semper Fi

you're welcome
hey now you old guys really cant complain about our rifles
Theyre 80% metal, only the stock is now fiberglass.
you and your wooden guns lol

[R Landry]

Ha ha! Old guys. You know what they say, "Old age & treachery shall overcome youth & skill."

[4thecorps]

This may be interesting to you. Went to ITR at Geiger in July '66. Our weapons issue was M-1, but somehow I wound up with a BAR. Maybe they thought it was good for me due to original MOS 0331. That sucker was heavy & unwieldy, but it made me special. When we had chance for slop shoot, guys even bought me beers to ask about it.

[R Landry]

I wonder how the BAR compared to the M-60, from service and maintainence standpoints. Wonder if any of our members has good familiarity with both - not just ITR use. Lots of M-60's poking out of Hueys.

Before my reserve unit converted to MPs, our rifle company had several 'automatic' M-16s with tripods. It was cool to empty a 20-shot mag in a second.

[dhuntington]

;) Alright you old farts! The truth is, everybody thinks their equipment is THE best. I love the M-16. I used the M-16A1. My son is going to PI in January for Security Forces. He bought an AR-15 and is already shooting 6" groups at 200 yards. He's a little sporadic at 300 so far, but getting better. We don't have a 500 yard range though. The M-16 is definitely NOT a "spray and pray" weapon. :flag:

[249gunner]

;) Alright you old farts! The truth is, everybody thinks their equipment is THE best. I love the M-16. I used the M-16A1. My son is going to PI in January for Security Forces. He bought an AR-15 and is already shooting 6" groups at 200 yards. He's a little sporadic at 300 so far, but getting better. We don't have a 500 yard range though. The M-16 is definitely NOT a "spray and pray" weapon. :flag:

6" from 200yds is impressive, that is if he really is shooting from all 3 of the 200yd stances. Tell him to really make the money on the 200 sitting and practice the kneeling and standing portions.
I find the 500yd line the easiest, for practice at home I shoot a 12 by 18inch B-MOD from 300 yds (same concept, scaled down target, except wind doesnt come into play all the way)

Any platform that the Marine rifle team has trust in, I trust, regardless of the favoritism. I just hate how we dont have a Marine from the '30s era to bring up what a pain in the ass a rapid fire with a bolt action was, that would shut us semi auto guys up I think. lol

[ErikHeiker]

Loved the M-14, shot Expert with it.
Never liked the M-16, could only qualify (just) as Sharpshooter with it.
Seems to me the 16 was more of a "spray and pray" weapon

Same here. Expert with the M-14, but never better than Sharpshooter with the M-16.

[249gunner]

http://cache3.asset-cache.net/xc/52604210.jpg?v=1&c=IWSAsset&k=2&d=E41C9FE5C4AA0A14DD1ACF06D3282E622C19644333DEA870 E1FE0C375F8F5B74B01E70F2B3269972
"American Marine sharpshooter aims a 1903 Springfield rifle at opponents during the American intervention in the Mexican Revolution, Vera Cruz, Mexico, 1914. Note shell casings to his right."


One badass Spanish American war statue

http://ispyypsi.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/hiker1.jpg

http://www.alctpost2.org/DSC00974.JPG

[249gunner]

sorry couldnt size it down
I taught it was a cool example of the American rifleman.

http://sandstead.com/images/hiker/NEWMAN_Allen_Spanish_American_War_Memorial_copyrig hted_1904_installed_1916_staten_island_source_sand stead_d2h_24.jpg

[Zulu 36]

I wonder how the BAR compared to the M-60, from service and maintainence standpoints. Wonder if any of our members has good familiarity with both - not just ITR use. Lots of M-60's poking out of Hueys.

Before my reserve unit converted to MPs, our rifle company had several 'automatic' M-16s with tripods. It was cool to empty a 20-shot mag in a second.

I spent my whole military career with fully-automatic M-16s and variants (except boot camp). They could burn up a lot of ammo fast. Great when in real tight (room clearing), but not so great at a distance. That's one reason the Marine Corps forced the Army to go along with the 3-round burst feature on the M-16A2.

I have shot both the M-60 (of course) and the BAR. The BAR was fun to shoot, but I never had to muscle it around or to maintain it. I never did really like the M-60. Too many stoppages to make me happy. I had the chance to fire the British GPMG, essentially the M-240G used now by US forces. I really liked that gun. I fired over 1,000 rounds and no stoppages. I can't remember ever firing that much ammo with an M-60 and not having at least a few stoppages of some sort.

I once worked with a guy who had been with Fox/2/7 at Fox Hill during the Chosin campaign (his presence is verified, no sea story). He said the BARs they had, once night fell, froze solid. Worked fine in daytime, but they didn't need their firepower as badly in the daytime. He said the .30 cal Browning machine guns are what saved their asses at night.

[Wyoming]

I was on target to get expert. Day before qualification, someone knocked my rifle off the bench and my front sight got jarred off center. **** - my windage was shot. I called the PMI over and we spent about an hour doing some prone and sitting rapid fire to move my groups back on center. Never could get them quite right. Next day I shot a 217 -- three shy of expert. Rats!!!!

Same thing here, but this was qual day. Sights got knocked off center. Thankfully the PMI helped me out. Missed Expert by a few.

[249gunner]

So can anyone tell me when the B-Mod target came into service. I heard that the M1 Garand/Springfield generation shot at a 20in bullseye from the 600yd line.

[leprechaun9544]

Also qualified Expert with the M-14. Can anyone refresh my memory as to what was a "perfect" score at Camp Matthews back in 1962 ?

[R Landry]

Not sure about Camp Matthews, but in 1961, this was the scoring for the M-1 in 1961. Supposed to be the same for the M-14 & M-16 until the late '70s when the scoring was changed.

Marksman - 190-209
Sharpshooter - 210-219
Expert - 220-250

So I assume that 'perfect' is 250.

[249gunner]

anyone remember the target dimensions?