PDA

View Full Version : Things that don't make sense...



MeierT
08-11-10, 10:08 PM
1) The PFT. Wars are not fought in a t-shirt, shorts, and sneakers. How is evaluating someone's performance in that scenario a good of evaluation of if they are prepared for the rigors of combat?

2) The CFT. A huge improvement over the PFT, but why is it done with no gear on?

3) Rifle Qualification. Is it relevant at all to modern combat? You will never exchange fire without gear on and with your arm in a sling like you do on the range.

4) Emphasis on Drill in Boot Camp. Drill is important for ceremonies and marching is the only acceptable way to move squads and larger units around without looking like a big cluster****. But why is there such a huge emphasis on Drill in Boot Camp instead of combat training or PT? I've read several things concerning Drill and most claim that learning Drill improves the morale of the unit and conditions Marines to instantly obey commands. The latter part I agree with, but in my experience, most of my platoon was only concerned about Drill because our SDI was really into it.

I'd greatly appreciate the insight of senior Marines, especially those who have done DI tours and/or have combat experience.

TunTvrnWarrior
08-11-10, 10:56 PM
1. PFT: To make evaluate if you are at a minimum physically fit
2. CFT: This appears to be something similar to the PRT. The PRT was in boots and Utes with your combat gear on in contrast to the CFT. I am unfamiliar with the complexeties of the CFT so I have no opinion on this.
3. Rifle Qual: To ensure you have basic marksmanship knowledge and reminders of the fundamentals of marksmanship. It's not real world training obviously, but Vince Lombardi always went over the fundamentals the Monday after the game and started from there.
4. Drill: to instill obedience to commands. One thing that was related to me from a Beirut Marine was that because one of his buddies thought he didnt need a helmet, his buddy took a permenant dirt nap.

I dont have combat experience, nor experience on the drill field. But as you age, you see the wisdom to some of the madness of the Corps.

firedog974
08-12-10, 03:16 AM
1) The PFT. Wars are not fought in a t-shirt, shorts, and sneakers. How is evaluating someone's performance in that scenario a good of evaluation of if they are prepared for the rigors of combat?

2) The CFT. A huge improvement over the PFT, but why is it done with no gear on?

3) Rifle Qualification. Is it relevant at all to modern combat? You will never exchange fire without gear on and with your arm in a sling like you do on the range.

4) Emphasis on Drill in Boot Camp. Drill is important for ceremonies and marching is the only acceptable way to move squads and larger units around without looking like a big cluster****. But why is there such a huge emphasis on Drill in Boot Camp instead of combat training or PT? I've read several things concerning Drill and most claim that learning Drill improves the morale of the unit and conditions Marines to instantly obey commands. The latter part I agree with, but in my experience, most of my platoon was only concerned about Drill because our SDI was really into it.

I'd greatly appreciate the insight of senior Marines, especially those who have done DI tours and/or have combat experience.




Are you seriously asking this ****?????

Did you go to boot under water and were physically unable to take in any info given out??

Seriously, WTF????

Quinbo
08-12-10, 03:58 AM
We don't go to combat wearing alphas either but we are taught how to properly wear them.

You really need to look up the purpose of close order drill.

Supersquishy
08-12-10, 05:07 AM
#1 Are you that hard core?
#2 Are you that Hard core?
#3 Are you that Hard core?

#4 cause if we didn't we would look like the Airforce (I guess you arent that hard core)

spotts
08-12-10, 06:36 AM
Do Marines still go through the Combat Conditioning Course? We did it yearly when I was in from 1989 to 1993.

Phantom Blooper
08-12-10, 07:26 AM
Things that don't make sense...

Your questions......posting as a Marine....but questioning like a poolee!:evilgrin:

rktect3j
08-12-10, 07:28 AM
I think he is just venting.

Otherwise, WTF.

BR34
08-12-10, 08:39 AM
Your questions......posting as a Marine....but questioning like a poolee!:evilgrin:

He didn't make it past MOS school. His lack of experience within the Marine Corps is showing-big time.

All of those "questions" could be answered by a civilian.

Garyius
08-12-10, 09:56 AM
PFT--If is it combat important that a man be able to pull himself up to a bar several times, why is it not important for a girl?

Officer's families--Different clubs, different beach areas, private marinas, private day care. Are their families nobility who are unable to mix with the scum?

The airforce is able to provide a very high level of comfort for their enlisted. Why are the Marine officers failures?

The army is able to give their troops time off after work and on weekends. Why are the Marine officers failures?

ALL the other branches push their troops to E-4 as quickly as possible so that their fmailies can live okayy--congress expects it an adjusts the pay scale to suit. Why are the Marine officers failures?

Quinbo
08-12-10, 10:16 AM
We are brothers through adversity. To complain of the oppulant life style of the other branches is just plain whining. You want the title without having undergone some of the most difficult training in the military?

You would be hard pressed to find a fly boy that can say he split a MRE cracker in a muddy hole with a fellow fly boy.

Sure they want to have the elite title .... just look at the recent uniform changes. Squids wearing charlies and airman wearing cammies. There is also that navy blue cammies with the embedded anchors.

They want to be us ... not us wanting to be them.

Integrity57
08-12-10, 12:22 PM
[quote=Garyius;684013]
ALL the other branches push their troops to E-4 as quickly as possible so that their fmailies can live okayy.quote]

Have to disagree with this as far as the Navy is concerned at least. From E-1 to E-3 is 9, 9, 6, and they're automatic advancement. To be advanced to E-4 you have to have TIS, good Evals and pass your advancement exam for your specific rate, even if you pass you are not gaunteed advancement especially if your rate is over-manned at the E-4 level. The Air Force has automatic E-4 advancement as I understand and I don't how the Army does, maybe they pull straws?

Old Marine
08-12-10, 02:37 PM
1) The PFT. Wars are not fought in a t-shirt, shorts, and sneakers. How is evaluating someone's performance in that scenario a good of evaluation of if they are prepared for the rigors of combat?

2) The CFT. A huge improvement over the PFT, but why is it done with no gear on?

3) Rifle Qualification. Is it relevant at all to modern combat? You will never exchange fire without gear on and with your arm in a sling like you do on the range.

4) Emphasis on Drill in Boot Camp. Drill is important for ceremonies and marching is the only acceptable way to move squads and larger units around without looking like a big cluster****. But why is there such a huge emphasis on Drill in Boot Camp instead of combat training or PT? I've read several things concerning Drill and most claim that learning Drill improves the morale of the unit and conditions Marines to instantly obey commands. The latter part I agree with, but in my experience, most of my platoon was only concerned about Drill because our SDI was really into it.

I'd greatly appreciate the insight of senior Marines, especially those who have done DI tours and/or have combat experience.

Unbelivable..... Never ceases to amaze me.:evilgrin:

Danny C Smith
08-12-10, 02:48 PM
We are brothers through adversity. To complain of the oppulant life style of the other branches is just plain whining. You want the title without having undergone some of the most difficult training in the military?

You would be hard pressed to find a fly boy that can say he split a MRE cracker in a muddy hole with a fellow fly boy.

Sure they want to have the elite title .... just look at the recent uniform changes. Squids wearing charlies and airman wearing cammies. There is also that navy blue cammies with the embedded anchors.

They want to be us ... not us wanting to be them.

Dead on!
The "life style" of the Marine has always been "spartan" to say the least.
Some of the best and worst times I had in the Corps were times when
we would share gritty chow in the desert at the Stumps or wet, soggy,
cold chow in a freakin' mud hole in Thailand or where ever the heII we were.
They all want to be like us but not have to live like we do.
I don't know about now but we always built our hooches from the inside out.
Not the other way around. Natural elements be dammed.
The toughest part of survival, besides not getting iced is comfort.
I have found that being a Marine, I can get real comfortable, real fast.
The way we live, be it in the rear or in the field is intentional.
Anything that don't kill you just makes you stronger, tougher and by God
more focused to get the job done and get the fvck out of there.
I always found that there was nothing better than a hot shower, a couple
fingers of good whiskey and a fine cigar after being in the field for a few
weeks. So stop whining and be a Marine.
Just get some!

Semper Fi.

Wood1371
08-12-10, 03:11 PM
Dead on!
The "life style" of the Marine has always been "spartan" to say the least.
Some of the best and worst times I had in the Corps were times when
we would share gritty chow in the desert at the Stumps or wet, soggy,
cold chow in a freakin' mud hole in Thailand or where ever the heII we were.
They all want to be like us but not have to live like we do.
I don't know about now but we always built our hooches from the inside out.
Not the other way around. Natural elements be dammed.
The toughest part of survival, besides not getting iced is comfort.
I have found that being a Marine, I can get real comfortable, real fast.
The way we live, be it in the rear or in the field is intentional.
Anything that don't kill you just makes you stronger, tougher and by God
more focused to get the job done and get the fvck out of there.
I always found that there was nothing better than a hot shower, a couple
fingers of good whiskey and a fine cigar after being in the field for a few
weeks. So stop whining and be a Marine.
Just get some!

Semper Fi.



And that's all that needs to be said on this issue... if you wished we were more like the other branches, join them when you get out.

WXSgt
08-12-10, 03:17 PM
1) The PFT. Wars are not fought in a t-shirt, shorts, and sneakers. How is evaluating someone's performance in that scenario a good of evaluation of if they are prepared for the rigors of combat?

2) The CFT. A huge improvement over the PFT, but why is it done with no gear on?

3) Rifle Qualification. Is it relevant at all to modern combat? You will never exchange fire without gear on and with your arm in a sling like you do on the range.

4) Emphasis on Drill in Boot Camp. Drill is important for ceremonies and marching is the only acceptable way to move squads and larger units around without looking like a big cluster****. But why is there such a huge emphasis on Drill in Boot Camp instead of combat training or PT? I've read several things concerning Drill and most claim that learning Drill improves the morale of the unit and conditions Marines to instantly obey commands. The latter part I agree with, but in my experience, most of my platoon was only concerned about Drill because our SDI was really into it.

I'd greatly appreciate the insight of senior Marines, especially those who have done DI tours and/or have combat experience.

Rifle trainning has been augmented with Combat marksmanship wearing full gear and all so its good now and drill is to instil discipline in your nasty body straight from the drill manual:

"The object of close order drill is to teach Marines by exercise to
obey orders and to do so immediately in the correct way. Close order
drill is one foundation of discipline and esprit de corps.
Additionally, it is still one of the finest methods for developing
confidence and troop leading abilities in our subordinate leaders."

Quinbo
08-12-10, 03:45 PM
Forehead slapping face palm ..... sigh
One of the purposes of close order drill is that Marines can readily assume any combat formation with minimal instruction. Why the hell do you think you drill with rifles? It is the basic level of being told to do whatever in patrolling or a parade.

WXSgt
08-12-10, 03:48 PM
Forehead slapping face palm ..... sigh
One of the purposes of close order drill is that Marines can readily assume any combat formation with minimal instruction. Why the hell do you think you drill with rifles? It is the basic level of being told to do whatever in patrolling or a parade.


there was a reference to assuming combat formations as well in the drill manual lol

Covey_Rider
08-12-10, 06:02 PM
So question, how can you say that the PFT is not a good judge of a Marines fitness for combat, if you have never been to combat???

Quinbo
08-12-10, 06:32 PM
You said it Covey :thumbup:

MeierT
08-12-10, 07:32 PM
So question, how can you say that the PFT is not a good judge of a Marines fitness for combat, if you have never been to combat???

I don't know. Maybe because it is completely different than running around with full gear on? The difference in physical strain is pretty obvious?

Yes, the way basic marksmanship is taught will improve your shooting. But why is there such a huge emphasis on 'hollywood' shooting over learning to deliver, rapid, accurate fire at moving targets from short distances?


I think a lot of you misunderstand me. I don't think that there shouldn't be a PFT or marksmanship training. I think it should be improved. Why not instead of the PFT require a hike in an existance load that must be completed at a minimum speed of 4 mph? Instead of pull ups and crunches, introduce a combat obstacle course that must be done in a combat load out.

Quinbo
08-12-10, 08:03 PM
This suggestion is coming from a hump drop. Ok rambo .... go get a job at burger king and have it your way.

Old Marine
08-12-10, 08:23 PM
I don't know. Maybe because it is completely different than running around with full gear on? The difference in physical strain is pretty obvious?

Yes, the way basic marksmanship is taught will improve your shooting. But why is there such a huge emphasis on 'hollywood' shooting over learning to deliver, rapid, accurate fire at moving targets from short distances?


I think a lot of you misunderstand me. I don't think that there shouldn't be a PFT or marksmanship training. I think it should be improved. Why not instead of the PFT require a hike in an existance load that must be completed at a minimum speed of 4 mph? Instead of pull ups and crunches, introduce a combat obstacle course that must be done in a combat load out.

Many years ago before you were born, the CMC test used to be just what you are advocating.

Some General decided to change it over to the PFT. i imagine he must have seen a track meet on TV and he decided that the Marine Corps should have a track team. Thus, it is what it is.:evilgrin:

MeierT
08-12-10, 08:25 PM
This suggestion is coming from a hump drop. Ok rambo .... go get a job at burger king and have it your way.


A hump drop? lmao

No, I was one of the headlights for the 15k in MCT.

Really got to admire people who insult you instead of debating.

Let's see, 3 of my Combat Instructors, Marines who have been over there, all said the PFT was a joke/BS.

Who cares if the 5'3" 120lb Marine can out run the 5'10" 170lb Marine if the former falls out under the weight of his gear.

MeierT
08-12-10, 08:26 PM
Many years ago before you were born, the CMC test used to be just what you are advocating.

Some General decided to change it over to the PFT. i imagine he must have seen a track meet on TV and he decided that the Marine Corps should have a track team. Thus, it is what it is.:evilgrin:

Thanks for that info GySgt. Sounds like another General wanted to leave his mark.

Zulu 36
08-12-10, 09:01 PM
Many years ago before you were born, the CMC test used to be just what you are advocating.

Some General decided to change it over to the PFT. i imagine he must have seen a track meet on TV and he decided that the Marine Corps should have a track team. Thus, it is what it is.:evilgrin:

That general was Gen. Cushman, CMC. I remember the jokes going around at the time (as I was in when the PFT changed). The joke was the new PFT was going to be three-laps around Cushman (if you recall, he was rather over-weight while CMC).

People were all play acting scared like the three-laps were going to be too demanding and painful. Pretty funny.

The CMC-PRT when I took it, did involve a three-mile run, pullups, situps, a jump-and-reach, and some other events I can't remember any more (push ups and standing broad jump rings a bell).

AlohaMarine
08-12-10, 09:12 PM
In the Civilian world, no one makes you run ANYWHERE.

Reason #1,214

Covey_Rider
08-12-10, 10:21 PM
I don't know. Maybe because it is completely different than running around with full gear on? The difference in physical strain is pretty obvious?

Y

Yes, running a PFT is different then running around with full gear. Running around in full gear is also a lot different then running around with a combat load. So where do you draw the line? Conditioning is conditioning...running long distances WILL prepare you physically for having to work with a combat load. You also don't take into consideration the damage that running with gear on will do to a Marines body. Do you really want to break Marines before they deploy?

Sgt Leprechaun
08-13-10, 12:48 AM
First, this is the sort of question that, believe it or not, gets debated every so often in the pages of the Marine Corps Gazette. Doing so helps us to improve 'as a Corps' and also to educate. While I understand some of the brickbats being tossed, it's sometimes not a bad thing to evaluate ones own doctrine from time to time. Lets keep our responses in that particular line. I'm not barking at anyone but if we can't 'debate ourselves' from time to time, 'we' never get any better.

*****

1) The PFT. Wars are not fought in a t-shirt, shorts, and sneakers. How is evaluating someone's performance in that scenario a good of evaluation of if they are prepared for the rigors of combat?


It's not designed, and never was, to evaluate that. It was designed to evaluate overall 'fitness'. Long before your time, General Cushman decided the old fashioned CFT/PT test (done with combat load, full marching order and pack, etc etc) was outmoded. It wasn't just a whim but the question has been asked, and was asked then. I don't have a good answer, except to say that it evaluates 'overall fitness'. Humps with 120 pound packs, field problems, etc., all evaluate 'combat fitness'.



2) The CFT. A huge improvement over the PFT, but why is it done with no gear on?

Likely as not, to minimize injury in a training environment. Much as we might like it to be otherwise, commanders are responsible (and have to do scads of reports to safety, the CG, etc etc) whenever a Marine gets hurt in training. Get enough injuries, the training gets changed. It's called Risk Management.

3) Rifle Qualification. Is it relevant at all to modern combat? You will never exchange fire without gear on and with your arm in a sling like you do on the range.

The object is to TEACH 'basic marksmanship' and to improve on basic marksmanship. It's not to do combat marksmanship. It also works on muscle memory, the theory being that your muscles will 'remember' all those positions, which have been tried and true and developed over time. When the crap hits the fan, they'll (your muscles) will 'remember'. Now, you are incorrect as far as the 'arm in a sling' thing. Currently we are engaging targets in Afghanistan at MUCH longer distances than any Marine has in decades. Decades. Our weaponry isn't designed for that. To overcome, you need those 'long range' skills.



4) Emphasis on Drill in Boot Camp. Drill is important for ceremonies and marching is the only acceptable way to move squads and larger units around without looking like a big cluster****. But why is there such a huge emphasis on Drill in Boot Camp instead of combat training or PT? I've read several things concerning Drill and most claim that learning Drill improves the morale of the unit and conditions Marines to instantly obey commands. The latter part I agree with, but in my experience, most of my platoon was only concerned about Drill because our SDI was really into it.

Because, quite simply, you have to learn to take orders without thinking about it. Drill teaches that. And it's our tradition. The instantly obeying commands thing is correct. And the SDI probably could give a rip, but a crappy looking drilling platoon poorly reflects on him. Therefore...well, you get the picture.



I'd greatly appreciate the insight of senior Marines, especially those who have done DI tours and/or have combat experience.
http://www.leatherneck.com/forums/images_ln/misc/images_ln/spacer.gif

I've done no DI tour, and my 'combat' consists of the Pentagon on 9/11. But I've spent years on the 'thin blue line' and have been a student of history for well over 20 years. Take the opine for what its' worth.

advanced
08-13-10, 08:47 AM
The PFT changed back in 1967. I went through PI being trained under the old way. We had to take the old PFT every 3 months in full gear, helmet, rifle, back pack, boots etc. There was a fireman's carry and the step-ups were a killer. I think we had to do the 3 mile run in full gear in 36 minutes, when they changed the PFT to no gear, I believe they shortened the time to 26 min's.

Though we used a sling at the range at PI, that was just to teach us how to shoot. Who else shoots at 500 yards with peep sights. Many other combat ranges did just as you suggest. Full combat gear, we did hip firing, moving and pop-up targets. We called them John Wayne courses. And the forced marches, I was a squad leader (up front), from the 3rd guy back everyone else had to run the whole way. The stress fractures.

Close order drill, besides all the discipline and spontaneous obedience to orders everyone is filled with a sense of being an intricate part of the whole. It is a thing of beauty to watch a Marine squad or platoon in combat fall in on line in a defensive or offensive position, with everyone "just" knowing where and what to do, and automatically being in the proper place for outputting the most formidable devastating fire-power you can imagine.

I don't know what they teach today but we were taught that if you walked into an ambush you were already within the enemy's killing zone. To dig in did not remove the threat. Therefore, we were taught that to remove ourselves from this killing zone we were to advance on line (close order drill training here) and into the threat to remove it. I must admit this was sometimes easier said than done.

Though Marine Corps training may not make much sense to the inexperienced; look at the results it has produced. Of course it's not all training, we've always had to add in some blood and guts from some fine Marines.

MeierT
08-13-10, 10:42 AM
Thanks for the responses.


I'm not trying to belittle anyone and apologize if I've offended some of you by asking these questions. I just considered these to be legit questions that I hoped senior and experienced Marines could explain.

Marksmanship training definitely helps you to shoot better. It explained the basic aspects of shooting better than my dad probably ever could have. I am undoubtedly a better shooter because of it.

A lot of responses suggest that Drill is good for Esprit-De-Corps. It's probably just my generation, but I gathered that the vast majority of Marines in my boot company either disliked it or flat out hated it. At the same time though I realize that you should march crisply. I was very annoyed at how sloppy we marched after boot camp.

The thing that confuses me most about the emphasis on close order Drill is that it is close order. We were constantly trained in combat training to maintain a significant distance between Marines in order to avoid multiple casualties to grenades or IEDs.

Zulu 36
08-13-10, 10:47 AM
The study of the human body's reaction to high load psychological stress (i.e., combat) has discovered that even if one is in superb physical condition, well trained in carrying combat loads, etc, when the old fight-or-flight syndrome kicks in - all bets are off.

Those who have BTDT know what I am saying. Especially in one's very first combat experience when suddenly your boots feel like they're made of lead and your rifle weighs 50lbs. That's just your body shunting blood away from the extremities to make sure the core is well supplied.

Physical fitness testing can only go so far. However, being in superb physical condition does help mitigate the effect of an adrenaline dump. The PFT and CRT only exist to test for a minimum of physical conditioning. Grunts train harder (but differently) with their long humps with all of their gear, plus combat exercises with combat loads (e.g., Mohave Viper, etc).

SEALS, Delta, Green Beanies, Recon, etc, all have extremely physically demanding selection programs. But they are only partially testing physical fitness. They are primarily testing mental toughness. To a lesser degree, so does Marine boot camp.

Rifle qualification on a KD range. Why? As a previous poster wrote: it's all about FUNDAMENTALS. Don't pro baseball teams practice the fundamentals daily? Football teams? It all comes down to the basics. If you can't do the basics, how can you do the advanced work?

Close order drill. Not only does COD teach Marines to move efficiently as a unit from A to B, and it teaches instant obedience to orders. However, one very important thing COD engenders is TEAMWORK.

Yes, COD is based on combat formations of days past. Be glad ours is now a simplified version, even from when I went to boot camp.

Go to You Tube and look up Trooping the Colour and see the complex drill movements the British Foot Guards have to be able to perform and they are still fully qualified infantrymen and they do deploy.

WXSgt
08-13-10, 12:44 PM
Yes, the way basic marksmanship is taught will improve your shooting. But why is there such a huge emphasis on 'hollywood' shooting over learning to deliver, rapid, accurate fire at moving targets from short distances?


there is trainning on how to "to deliver, rapid, accurate fire at moving targets from short distances" its table 2 and further on in the fleet again as ive said before you get table 3 & 4 hell i did it a couple of months ago for predeployment trainning while out in the field. we engage moving targets out to 100yds i believe that you did that in boot as well.

Beltayn
08-13-10, 05:43 PM
SEALS, Delta, Green Beanies, Recon, etc, all have extremely physically demanding selection programs. But they are only partially testing physical fitness. They are primarily testing mental toughness. To a lesser degree, so does Marine boot camp.

Definitely THIS.

Most combat exercises and humps (the extent of my own experience, not being a combat veteran) are 90% ballsack and only 10% physical strength.
I have seen big ripped gymn-addicts that can bench 3 times my weight crumple in the heat when you put a combat load on them and ask them to walk a roving post for 6 hours, and little scrawny guys like myself happily run the same while carrying the 240.

There's a reason why the core value is COMMITMENT, and not Strength.

There's an anonymous quote I read once that I really liked as well about courage. It went something to the effect of "courage is finding the will to endure... for just one moment longer. To take just that one more step. And then to do it again."

Marine84
08-13-10, 05:54 PM
HAHAHAHA!

Everybody wants to question WHY. If you had stayed in longer Grasshoppa, you would have learned WHY.

Sgt Leprechaun
08-16-10, 06:17 PM
Beltayn and others nail it. 90 percent mental.