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ColA
07-30-10, 08:21 AM
Stolen Valor…"And they will deceive everyone his neighbor, and will not speak the truth: they have taught their tongue to speak lies, and weary themselves to commit iniquity."

We have become a society that is complicit, unaware and willing to accept whatever we are told as the truth, especially when it comes to medals and heroes. The reason why we have so many phony heroes is because we don’t want to know the truth. It is easier for us to just accept things at face value and never question; the truth hurts. The truth may reveal something that has to be dealt with that isn’t pleasant, so we step back and just accept what we are told regardless of the suspicions of phoniness; it is easier.

Remember that photo taken of Lt. Kerry testifying before congress? We certainly get what we deserve when it comes to heroes and leaders and here is a good example. Lt. John Kerry USN with a Silver Star, Bronze Star and 3 Purple Hearts with less than 6 months in country. Yeap! He is a recognized and accepted Viet Nam War hero despite all the questions about his service and acts of “heroism”. Stolen Valor? I suppose that is the question, but you know what happens when you ask questions. So, we are left with “heroes” of questionable integrity that pave the way for more phonies that cheapen the integrity of the awards the real heroes wear. But, that all seems to be acceptable and in many cases used for political advantage as well. Senator Kerry isn’t alone in this regard. The government has done its fair share of creating phony heroes for political purposes and is equally complicit when it comes to stolen valor. Jessica Lynch and Pat Tillman situations come to mind. In both cases honorable individuals used by the system and made out to be heroes for other than heroic reasons. These situations are not unique and have been going for a long time; unquestioned and unchecked. Government created and accepted use of stolen valor at the expense of the real heroes.

Here is another case involving what can be called stolen valor. It has involved the questioning phase/kill the messenger, deny the information phase, don’t get any answers to your questions phase, dealing with the Kool-Aid drinking and rose color glass wearing type phase, the evaluation of the facts phase and now the realization phase. The realization that a young L/Cpl was denied his rightful place in Marine Corps history because he survived the battle, was a Marine of color and most likely someone others thought did not fit the needs of the political requirements of the time. Denied a Medal of Honor that was awarded to someone else for “his” actions....Stolen Valor? The Battle of Hill 488 Viet Nam during 1966 and the actions of a L/Cpl RC Binns and the other Marines can be found by going to Google Hill 488.

There is included here a witness statement from a member of this Marines unit concerning his actions during this battle. After reading it, it is hard to believe this Marine was not ever considered let alone awarded the MOH. This witness statement and the others in his awards package as compared to all the other statements for other awards recommended is exceptional and clearly meets the full criteria established for the MOH. Yet, he was “never” considered for the MOH. Interesting! He was told within an hour of his return from the battle and on his way to surgery for several wounds suffered in the battle, he was going to recommended for the Navy Cross. An interesting phase of events followed then and continued for years which are shocking, defy common sense and lack a sense of honor and integrity. It is a fascinating story, one of stolen valor for sure and denial of the nation’s highest award for heroism because of reasons other than heroics.

There isn’t enough space to share all the details of this situation, but wanted to share a case of Stolen Valor of a different kind enlight of what is being reported in the press with the recent court decision regarding phony military heroes. It makes one wonder how many other cases like this exist, but involve the stolen actions of someone that was killed and unaware of a perceived injustice as compared to this case where the actions of a living survivor were stolen and caused unwarranted mental anguish and denial of benefits. Courage without honor is meaningless.

Statement of SSgt Jimmie Howard...

On June 16th 1966 as the platoon leader of the 1st platoon, company C, 1st Recon Bn, my platoon was manning an observation post located on Hill 488. We had been continually probed by the VC since 2100 the previous day. At approximately 0100 on the 16th, we were attacked by a well trained North Vietnamese unit which I estimated to be a battalion size, but was later established as a regiment. LCpl Binns was the first to see the enemy. He and his team immediately took the enemy under fire and dropped back to take their position on the platoon defensive perimeter. Shortly thereafter every member of the platoon was hit, six of which died instantly or of wounds later. Inasmuch as I was hit and could not walk, I remained on the radio and directed the attack aircraft and relayed my commands through LCpl Binns. The raw courage he displayed was phenomenal. Through painfully wounded by shrapnel in one leg and later in the other, he constantly exposed himself to intense enemy fire which came from .50 caliber machine guns, 60 millimeter mortars, light machine guns, grenades and small arms. Moving from man to man he directed their fire and and assisted our corpsman in caring for the other wounded. Two grenades exploded near PFC TG Powles and in addition to severely wounding his chest, the concussion effect blinded him. Powles stood up and would have been killed had not Binns, in complete disregard for his personal safety, stood up and pushed Powles to the ground and administered emergency treatment. As the assault progressed, our effective strength was reduced to 7 men. At this point, LCpl Binns took it upon himself to redistribute ammunition of those that were incapable of utilizing it. This he continued to do throughout the night and into the late morning when a reaction force arrived to relieve us. He appeared everywhere at once. At one point when the enemy was extremely close they called out "Marine you die in one hour". Upon hearing this, LCpl Binns stood up and took them under fire and shouted back at them. There is no doubt in my mind that LCpl Binns' heroic actions and indomitable fighting spirit were instrumental in inspiring our remaining 7 affective men to fight savagely an hold their position against overwhelming odds.


Honor guides Marines to exemplify the ultimate in ethical and moral behavior; to never lie cheat or steal; to abide by an uncompromising code of integrity; respect human dignity; and respect others. The quality of maturity, dedication, trust and dependability commit Marines to act responsibly; to be accountable for their actions; to fulfill their obligations; and to hold others accountable for their actions.


Note: For more information on this subject, you can go to www.Jaxsemperfidelis.org sidebar Stolen Valor Information

ColA
07-30-10, 10:47 PM
There are facts that can substantiate the findings in these cases...Just because someone says something doesn't necessarily make it true or right...I have also found that silence on the part of some...

Mongoose
07-31-10, 07:44 AM
I dont know the dos and donts of medal selections. I do know that the Corps cant hand out Valor medals for every Marine that deserves one. I know this because every Marine in my BN. in V.N. would have one. Not so. I saw many acts of Valor during my time in country. Some higher on the pole than what you described. No Valor medals for most. I guess what Im trying to say is if the Marine in question is unhappy with the Navy Cross he has. Give it to me. I know a lot of V.N. Marine veterens I could pin it on.

ColA
07-31-10, 08:28 AM
Th is isn't about this Marine or sour grapes, this is about an awards process that was and may still be biased and flawed. If a medal has criteria follow it. In this case that didn't happen and the criteria was completely ignored and the rightful award was "subjectively" vice objectively awarded to another for whatever reasons.

To be direct there are witness statements for awards the witnesses say they never made or signed. This is my point about the Bn XO and his silence; he knows what happened and most likely was a key participant. These are facts. Not pleasant ones to find, but still the facts. Everyone that looks at this on the surface just assumes sour grapes and the award was appropriate. But, they are not dealing with facts. This is a case of stolen valor for sure based on facts and intentionally denying the appropriate Marine the rightful recognition for his actions. There has to be a sense of honor in the awards process otherwise the acts of heroism are meaningless.

No one wants to touch this and it has been under the radar for decades. But that doesn't mean it hasn't had serious consequences for those involved both physically and psychologically. Anyone that brings it up is meet with the usual this is nothing but sour grapes or they become victims of "kill the messenger" by others who have not done any research of their own. There is no sour grapes on my part or anyone I have been in touch with. This is strictly about honor. Unfortunately, no one really wants to know the truth; it is sometimes too painful and ugly. But this is why I assumed we as Marines have a core value called HONOR. If we really believe in the core values of Honor, Courage and Commitment, we have to abide by them all the time and not just when it is convenient for us or the organization. To do anything less makes these values meaningless.

Bottom line here, if this involved you or someone you knew would you fell the same way? Take the time to discover the facts and you will see the dots don't connect. There were truly extraordinary acts of heroism displayed on the part of all the Marines that day, but it was exploited and distorted by others for reasons other than actually recognizing the acts for what they were and who performed them. FACT!

I realize there were other acts of heroism in Viet Nam and still today that have gone unrecognized, but using that as a excuse and a reason to not identify and attempt to correct those you discover is not something that is in keeping with honor.

Lynn2
07-31-10, 08:51 AM
"Denied a Medal of Honor that was awarded to someone else for “his” actions....Stolen Valor?"

That "someone else" was Staff Sgt Jimmy Howard.

That is who got the MOH for that fight. (a fight we were getting some radio reports on up at 3Recon while those boys fought for their lives)

So maybe instead of saying why Binns deserved a MOH and not a Navy Cross you might explain why you think Howard did not deserve the MOH he got?

Howard was the main reason those boys held.

They all fought like he/ll. And the awards they got reflected that fact.

1-MOH
4-NC
13-SS
18-PH
18 men on that Team.

This given to "someone else" for "his" actions is complete and total bullsnot.

Lynn2
07-31-10, 09:05 AM
And what about Doc Holmes or Cpl Thompson or Adams? You honestly think they did not do as much?

Cpl Thompson who got those boys set up right before they were hit. Another key reason they were able to hold IMO.

And then fought like he/ll until he was seriously wounded.

He was last seen alive being dragged off that hill by NVA.

When they found his body after the battle he was dead. He had been shot in the head.

Next to his body were two dead NVA. One dead of knife wounds the other with a K-Bar stuck in his chest.

Stolen Valor my azz.

Lynn2
07-31-10, 10:27 AM
1st Platoon Charlie Company, 1<sup>st</sup> Reconnaissance Battalion, 1<sup>st</sup> Marine Division





(1 Medal of Honor, 4 Navy Crosses, 13 Silver Stars, 18 Purple Hearts)



Sgt Jimmy Howard


Medal of Honor


Purple Heart





Corpsman Bille Holmes


Navy Cross


Purple Heart





Corpsman Richard Fitzpatrick


Silver Star


Purple Heart





Cpl Jerrald Thompson


Navy Cross (Posthumously)


Purple Heart





Cpl Robert Martinez


Silver Star


Purple Heart





Cpl Binns


Navy Cross


Purple Heart





L/Cpl Daniel Mulvhill


Silver Star


Purple Heart





L/Cpl Alcadio Mascarenas


Silver Star (Posthumously)


Purple Heart





L/Cpl John Adams


Navy Cross (Posthumously)


Purple Heart





L/Cpl Ray Hildreth


Silver Star


Purple Heart





L/Cpl Ralph Victor


Silver Star


Purple Heart





L/Cpl William Norman


Silver Star


Purple Heart





Pfc Thomas Powles


Silver Star


Purple Heart





Pfc Thomas Glawe


Silver Star (Posthumously)


Purple Heart





Pfc James McKinney


Silver Star (Posthumously)


Purple Heart





Pfc Charles Bosley


Silver Star


Purple Heart





Pfc Ignatius Carlisi


Silver Star (Posthumously)


Purple Heart





Pfc Joseph Kosoglow


Silver Star


Purple Heart

Lynn2
07-31-10, 10:33 AM
<big>"When the enemy soldiers began to push their way through the sparse brush and knee high grass to probe the perimeter, Howard's men threw rocks at them. Mistaking the rocks for grenades the enemy soldiers would move quickly into the open, allowing the defenders clear shots that made every round of remaining ammunition count.</big>
<big>For five hours the enemy alternated between small probes and full scale assault on the surviving Marines. S/Sgt Howard continued to encourage his battered platoon, direct their fire, and calling in aerial support. At times the fighting was hand-to-hand, the enemy so close that Howard directed aerial straffing runs within 30 feet of his position. From Chu Lai Colonel Sullivan listened to Howard's calm, precise voice across the radio. Then, shortly after 3 A.M. the radio went dead. At Chu Lai there was dread...the assumption was that Howard was dead...his brave platoon wiped out.</big>

<big>Shot in the back, S/Sgt Howard wasn't dead but he couldn't move his legs. As the enemy continued to assault his perimeter the wounded leader did his best to encourage his Marines. He kept reminding them that if they could just hold out until daylight, more Marines would come and pull them out of there.</big>

<big>As daylight dawned a helicopter approached the hill. The Marines were still taking fire, the battle wasn't yet over. The chopper was shot down and the pilot killed. At dawn a Marine company began the trek to relieve the remnants of Howard's platoon. Two more Marines were killed and it wasn't until noon that they finally reached Howard's perimeter on Hill 488. Five of the defenders on Hill 488 were dead. A sixth died enroute to the base camp at Chu Lai....</big>

ColA
07-31-10, 11:41 AM
Here we go again, no facts other than the official account gotten on line and kill the messenger. If you collect the facts that include witness statements, recorded accounts, and other official reports you will see some inconsistencies in the statements and official accounts compared to what is on line.

Yes, Jimmie Howard got the MOH for this battle. I read the DD-1650 awards summary of action and the witness statements on his award and on LCpl Binns' award. Howard provided a witness statement for Binns. His statement is provided in my original comments in this site. If you compare the awards packages and do an evaluation based on the criteria for the medals, one package stands out and that is Binns. EVEN Howard syas this! And, yes BD Holmes made a comment in regard to this as well where he stated Binns deserves the Medla of Honor for what he did on that hill. This comment is on tape in BD Holmes own words. I can not attach it here, but it is with the other information mentioned in the foot note of the initial post.

Whether you want to accept this or not is up to you to decide, but the facts are the facts and just attacking the messenger isn't going to change that. As I have said, the truth is a difficult thing to accept. If their is more information in regard to this, I would like to see it. The one person that can answer the hard questions, the BN XO ,will not answer any questions. In my opinion, the MOH was awarded to the senior man and the person the MC most likely thought would be a better representative of the award vice a non career LCpl who in Howard's own words stated, "his raw courage was phenomenal"; There is no doubt in my mind that LCpl Binns' heroic actions and indomitable fighting spirit were instrumental in inspiring our remaining 7 affective men to fight savagely an hold their position against overwhelming odds. I suppose this can be argued, but those arguing would need to know the FACTS and the FACTS right now support my original assumption.

The "one" MOH per battle policy that exists regardless of the multiple acts of heroism would have precluded the awarding of 2 MOH's for one battle, but they could have recommended as many individuals as they deemed appropriate for consideration. This wasn't done. It was decided the senior man would get that award. Thompson and Adams awards where originally submitted as Silver Stars and upgraded to Navy Crosses by the awards board at FMF Pac. The only Navy Cross packages originally submitted by the battalion were on Binns and Holmes. There were no awards boards at the battalion or the division levels for any of these awards resulting from this battle.

Lynn2
07-31-10, 12:13 PM
"Denied a Medal of Honor that was awarded to someone else for “his” actions....Stolen Valor?"

That is what you said. A truly disgusting and stupid statement.

VN was that kind of war. You can read many accounts of MOH type of actions that resulted in a SS or nothing.

One almost moment by moment account written about some Quang Tri fighting in the days right after Hastings had their Doc doing things that would take your breath away. Hard to believe over the top stuff. While wounded several times. Before he was KIA.

"Doc won the MOH two times over that night" was what one Marine said. A MOH for sure.

Doc got a SS.

It was that kind of war. And those of us that fought it understand that much.

Now you have downgraded the actions of one of the finest Marines to ever wear the uniform. The man whose leadership and calmness under fire kept those boys together. A brave man. A legend. The reason those boys held.

Suggesting that S/Sgt Howard got someone else's MOH for actions done by someone else is disgusting. Truly disgusting.

You have no shame.

Trust me this being an open forum I am not telling you what I really think of you and your stupidity.

You have no shame.

Lynn2
07-31-10, 12:17 PM
"The "one" MOH per battle policy that exists regardless of the multiple acts of heroism would have precluded the awarding of 2 MOH's for one battle"

Tell that to the guys in Hastings which had several MOH's awarded. Some earned only meters from each other.

Please tell me you are not really an 05?

Lynn2
07-31-10, 12:42 PM
"And, yes BD Holmes made a comment in regard to this as well where he stated Binns deserves the Medla of Honor for what he did on that hill."

And you know what I would bet this is true.

In fact I would bet that in a different fire fight the actions of several of those boys might have resulted in a different award.

You certainly could have come here in an open forum and made a case for a MOH for Binns or anyone else on that Team.

But that is not what you did.

You accused Howard of stealing a MOH that belonged to someone else and someone elses actions.

And you made Jimmy Howard of all people a Stolen Valor Marine.

How utterly stupid and insensitive can anyone be?

You are a disgrace. A true and utter disgrace.

ColA
07-31-10, 12:54 PM
Lynn2 You are entitled to your opinion even though it is purely based on emotion and not fact. Your insulting comments are noted and frankly expected. This is usually what happens when you don't deal with facts. My recommendation to you is to take some of that emotion and put it towards collecting the facts and than we can have an intelligent argument on the subject.

I am in no way questioning Howard's or any others actions; they all performed courageously and some demonstrated extraordinary courage. FACT! I am questioning the information and the facts that point to who did what. How the MC wanted to reward those actions was up to them at the time. I have the right to question this and any other decision based on the facts as I see them. As it is, Binns Navy Cross citation is stronger than Howard's Medal of Honor citation and that is a fact. Who knows why it was submitted as a NC vice MOH and in Howard's case the other way around. Only the bn staff know and the Bn XO is the only surviving member and he will not answer any questions. You need to read the summary of actions and the witness statements. But as I said, the MC can decide to award whatever medal they deem appropriate regardless of any objectivity. I still would like to know the reason behind that decision and this has nothing to do with the fight on the hill.

Sorry to hear your doc only got a Silver Star for actions that deserved better. Maybe if someone took the time to stand up for him and argue his case that would have happened vice just settling because that's the way it is or was.

Once again, before you insult take some time to gather some facts and lets have an intelligent discussion on the issue amongst Marines. I saw where you read my article Forgotten Heroes Amongst us posted on this site. I became familiar with this battle through contact with Chuck Bosely and subsequently have been in contact with several other platoon members and Marines that were with the company that relieved the recon platoon. Have you been in contact with any of the platoon members? Did you personally know SSgt Howard? I never meet him, but as a former recon Marine, I knew several Marines that did.

Thanks for taking the time to respond and sharing your opinions. SF

Lynn2
07-31-10, 01:14 PM
"I am in no way questioning Howard's or any others actions;"

Are you stupid or a liar? Because that is exactly what you did.

"Denied a Medal of Honor that was awarded to someone else for “his” actions....Stolen Valor?"

That is your exact quote. You did nothing except question Howards actions.

Awarded to someone else for his actions and then you make Howard who did get the MOH a Stolen Valor Marine. Plus the idiotic title of this thread.

Do not tell me you did not do exactly what you did.

Since you are a Marine Col I will not suggest that you are a "liar.

I will give you a break and assume "stupid"

DrZ
07-31-10, 01:30 PM
Colonel <br />
You and I both know awarding of medals is not only based on actions but politics as well. If we start peeling back the layers of the onion of this story...we may find the politics involved...

ColA
07-31-10, 02:08 PM
The stolen valor issue lies with the Bn Staff and the way they evaluated the actions and the subsequent awards. This had nothing to do with Howard's action or any other Marines on that hill. Once they returned to bn, the bn staff, specifically the XO was responsible for working up the awards packages. Why he did what he did as far as evaluating the actions and doing the due diligence usually necessarily for awards of this level is a question. He was contacted,but did not respond to any inquires. Maybe if they had a bn or a division awards board like they did in 3D Division some of this would have been addresses. As it was they only has an awards board at FMF PAC.

They certainly could have put Binns and Holmes in for a MOH. Howard's own statement on Binns performance in the battle was outstanding and warranted this consideration. The statement and the way he worded it is a credit to him as a platoon commander in recognizing one of his Marines. The answers to many questions lies with the individual that wrote up the awards packages, I have been told that was the Bn XO.

Lynn I see you do not have your name on your profile and only list it as N/A. You want to insult me that is your right, but I would at least expect you not to hide your name. "After they prayed, the place where they were meeting was shaken. And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and spoke the word of God boldly."

SF

ColA
07-31-10, 02:21 PM
DRZ Thanks for you insightful comment and civility LOL. I agree politics played a part and yes I am sure Binns wears his NC proudly. But, there still is the matter of honor when it comes to awards and if we don't question things they will never change. One only has to look at some of the awards associated with Iraq and Afghanistan and the controversies associated with them; Pat Tillman and Sgt Pertilla. Awards need to be about the criteria that established them and not about politics. Idealistic? Sure, but at least we are discussing it and maybe as a result things will change. SF

ColA
07-31-10, 02:30 PM
Lynn Once again you are entitled to your opinions and they are noted. SF

DrZ
07-31-10, 03:10 PM
Colonel,
Changes of this nature come from within and not from outside of Congress. I have attempted to make changes in my area by running for Mayor. I lost but at least I put my beliefs before the public. Being a SSgt who was involved in a war the common American wants to forget says that I would not be a prime candidate for Congress but perhaps a retired Marine LtCol who was involved in something that stung the American populous as did Beirut.... would be someone who could gain entrance in the Good Old Boys club of Washington. Then the potential for change would exist.

The mark of a true American is hearing someone say something that makes your blood boil while defending their right to say it. Civility must exist...especially here... especially among Marines.


So...feel like running for Congress? You are my age...so you are still young enough to make a difference.

Lynn2
07-31-10, 03:19 PM
Lynn Once again you are entitled to your opinions and they are noted. SF



"Denied a Medal of Honor that was awarded to someone else for “his” actions....Stolen Valor?"

This thread sadly has nothing to do with Binns.

It has to do with that quote of yours.

Where you accuse one of the finest Marines of Vietnam to have gotten a MOH for actions that were the actions of someone else.

An undeserved MOH.

A MOH that should have gone to someone else.

That is entirely what this thread is about. And that is exactly what you said.

And I will tell you what 3Reconners who had served with Howard before said once the shooting stopped down there in ChuLai

"Thank God they had Jimmy Howard as PL"

Until you openly retract that statement as a "mispoke" Or a "brainfart" on your part you stand here as having attacked the reputation and memory of a Marine Corps legend.

Now don't lie and say you did not say what you said. And don't think that we can't read. You said it. Now stand behind it or retract it.

But do not for a minute pretend you did not say it.

Zulu 36
07-31-10, 03:40 PM
It seems that the Marine Corps has always been stricter about valor awards. For instance, my father was recommended for a Navy Cross for actions on Saipan, but received a Bronze Star w/ "V." A Marine who was awarded a Navy Cross at the same ceremony my Father was decorated, had been recommended for an MOH for actions on Guam.

As many historians have written, huge numbers of acts of valor have gone unrecognized through the years, often because none of the witnesses survived to write them up. Or, staff weenies with minimal (or no) combat experience interjected their ideas of "true valor" and reduced award recommendations.

Lynn, I didn't read anything in the colonel's remarks that said Jimmie Howard didn't deserve his MOH. I met Jimmie Howard and he told the story of that battle and I remember clearly his continual mention of LCpl Binns and what he did. Jimmie Howard played down his own actions.

My impression was that Howard was upset Binns didn't get the Blue Max and would have preferred their awards were reversed.

BTW, every member of Howard's platoon got at least a Silver Star.

Quinbo
07-31-10, 03:52 PM
Speaking of which .... if you have read Carlos Hathcocks story. Years after his retirement he was submitted for the MOH. It went all the way to congress and was reduced by them to a silver star. You can't blame some bn XO for an award that must pass across the presidents desk.

Of course there is some supply pogue weenie that somehow might influence the write up. They weren't there and they don't know. The military is not a democracy.

If you feel very strongly about this then petiition sec def to do something about it.

Lynn2
07-31-10, 04:06 PM
Lynn, I didn't read anything in the colonel's remarks that said Jimmie Howard didn't deserve his MOH. I met Jimmie Howard and he told the story of that battle and I remember clearly his continual mention of LCpl Binns and what he did. Jimmie Howard played down his own actions.


BTW, every member of Howard's platoon got at least a Silver Star.

Zulu, I respect your opinion but on this you are wrong.

This quote can be read only one way:

"In my opinion, the MOH was awarded to the senior man and the person the MC most likely thought would be a better representative of the award vice a non career LCpl "

And so can this one:

" (Binns)Denied a Medal of Honor that was awarded to someone else (Howard) for “his” (Binns) actions....Stolen Valor?

The Col here has clearly stated that Howard got the MOH only because he was a career man and a senior NCO over a more deserving E-3

The Col has clearly stated that the award Binns did not get went to Howard and was based on Binns actions.

Those quotes of the Col's can not be read any other way.

While trying to drum up support for Binns he stopped along the way to tell us how unworthy Howards award was. And then adds the Stolen Valor and attaches it to Jimmy Howard.

And we all here know what Stolen Valor is. Someone taking credit for something they should not be taking credit for.

He clearly said it. He can now retract it or stand behind it. But pretend it was not said is not an option for any man of honor.

And if you think I am pizzed then you would be 100% correct.

ColA
07-31-10, 04:08 PM
Lynn Once again you are entitled to your opinion and I suggest you get the facts on this situation so we can have an intelligent argument. SF

Zulu 36
07-31-10, 04:11 PM
Speaking of which .... if you have read Carlos Hathcocks story. Years after his retirement he was submitted for the MOH. It went all the way to congress and was reduced by them to a silver star. You can't blame some bn XO for an award that must pass across the presidents desk.

Of course there is some supply pogue weenie that somehow might influence the write up. They weren't there and they don't know. The military is not a democracy.

If you feel very strongly about this then petiition sec def to do something about it.


Congress has no say in who and who does not get valor awards. Sure, a local Congressman can put in his/her two-cents, but the decision remains in the military chain-of-command.

Also, Hitchcock did not want anything to be awarded at the time he performed his act of valor and the chain-of-command respected his request. Later, the lieutenant he saved felt he really should press the issue and did. Hitchcock's son arm-twisted him to accept the Silver Star late in his life.

Lynn2
07-31-10, 04:14 PM
Lynn Once again you are entitled to your opinion and I suggest you get the facts on this situation so we can have an intelligent argument. SF

I was talking to Zulu not you.

And I already have your quotes. Exactly what you said.

Quinbo
07-31-10, 04:17 PM
I had the outstanding oppurtunity to be present when Carlos Hathcock was awarded the silver star. Right there at Quantico. I was also graced with the chance to serve with his son for 3 years. Believe what you want.

ColA
07-31-10, 04:17 PM
DRZ Thanks for the comments. You sell yourself short on what folks think of those that fought in Viet Nam...The times have changed and people are wiser. Keep trying to make a difference; it makes me fell more comfortable knowing there are others out there trying and understand the real meaning of values like honor. SF

ColA
07-31-10, 05:21 PM
Lynn2 I have my opinion and you certainly have yours and I respect that. The argument on this subject aside for a moment, I am getting the impression from you that only your opinion counts and if others don't agree with you, you attack them vice trying to discuss the issue with facts and a degree of civility. Others have read this and have offered their opinions with less drama on the same subject and frankly they have some good points other than my way or the highway.

I am not attacking Howard or his actions as you reference. I don't think he rated the MOH for his actions as compared to the actions of Binns and/or Holmes and that is my opinion after reviewing all the evidence provided via the FOIA and other documents as well as conversations with other Marines. I do think Binns and maybe Holmes should have been considered along with Howard, but they weren't and this is the crux of the argument. Why wasn't there better due diligence and evaluation into the recommendation of the highest award for heroism at the bn and division.

The stolen valor was used to attract attention and is directed at the system and how, in this case, it didn't recognized the actions of a LCpl for the higher award using a process. I have the opinion the awards were subjectively and not objectively decided. Thought I used some examples of the way the system uses awards for other purposes than rewarding heroic actions with the Pat Tillman and Jessica Lynch examples. This is what has to change. If you get the impression I am referring to Howard's award as not valid you are wrong. Howard's award is valid; it was awarded by the president and approved by congress. It was official and recognized combat award for heroism that he was submitted for and was awarded. Are you asking whether I thing he deserved it more than some others, I would have to say no. But, again this is my opinion. The real issue is how did the bn make that decision and why based the award criteria and the facts at the time. I read the awards packages and I have my opinion on them based on what is in them. I realize two people can look at the same thing and come up with different opinions, this is a case.

I am only submitting my opinions here and thought I could stimulate other opinions based on additional facts and not just emotion. I have received multiple documents from HQMC, listen to 57 taped recorded interviews of the surviving members of the Platoon, read several articles on the subject, talked to surviving platoon members and that is how I came up with my opinion. Do I think ill of Howard absolutely not. As I stated, he and the other members of the platoon did not have a say in what happened after they got off that hill. The Bn XO is the most likely individual who made the decisions and did the write ups.

Here are some articles on awards in general I read and actually contacted the authors to discuss this situation http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1073633/posts

http://www.johntreed.com/militarymedals.html#medalofhonor

These article address awards and the one MOH per battle philosophy. I realized there were more than 2 MOH's given in 3d MarDiv for a battle, but I believe that was a battle involving several regiments and not something like hill 488.

Wyoming
07-31-10, 05:33 PM
Jeez, someone is going to die a lonely person.

You guys realize this is in the Open Squad Bay?

Lynn2
07-31-10, 05:35 PM
"I realized there were more than 2 MOH's given in 3d MarDiv for a battle, but I believe that was a battle involving several regiments......."

You might at least read some history.

Two MOH's from one Marine Company in a single days time.

Operation Hastings

I realize that unlike Sgt Howard you were never in Vietnam. So do some reading.

ColA
07-31-10, 05:52 PM
Lynn2 here is an excerpt from something I got from a 1st recon Viet Nam vet on this subject, it opens with a statement I made to him:

"No one can see everything that goes on. Everyone views the scene from a different perspective." I agree to a point, but I would think that any and maybe all would have remembered who resupplied them with ammo when they were running low or worse out and who backed them up when they were dealing with a larger force than they couldn't handle it or who pulled them down to prevent them from getting shot or worse killed. I would think these sorts of things stick in a man's memory when he was faced with death.

For the most part I agree but you would be surprised what gets forgotten in a root hog or die fight. There is no doubt in my mind that those resupplied or saved remember individually but ones on one side of the harbor site might not have known who did what on the other side. Collectively I believe all of them know it was Binns and Holmes who did the majority of what got done. I also believe all know Howard didn't do anywhere near what he got credit for. Left up to me he would have rated a Silver Star. No way that was going to happen because of the after battle circumstances.
As I wrote before, with a battle like that the leader is going to get the highest reward. It's not right but that's generally the way things are. My first fight in a base camp I ended up in the camp by myself with the rest of the team pinned down behind boulders on the side of the mountain. We ended up smoking the gooks. The PL got written up for a Silver Star. He got credit for a host of **** he didn't do. Al he did was come up with the plan which wasn't that much of a plan and fired his rifle.
On the other hand I got written up for a SS for my last fight in a base camp a couple of weeks before I rotated out. Told the Lt. and the two pilots I didn't deserve it so I didn't want it. Told them to give it to my Corpsman but since he didn't try to save anyone's life he couldn't get it. Told them to shove it and left. I will always believe it was offered because it was one Hell of a fight and I was the PL. Six months into my tour at MCAS Yuma I received a Bronze Star. In a way it makes me no different than those on 488. Only difference is I'm the first to admit I didn't deserve it even though I did do what the paper says. What eases my conscience is 3 of my guys walked away decorated. It will always stick in my craw that I got the highest because I was the PL. What I take pride in is the fact that two pilots came to Reasoner the next day to meet me. One was a Cobra Pilot and the other a backseater in an OV-10 Bronco. That was worth more than anything the Corps could have given me including an MOH. Only other thing better was meeting my old Plt. commander in 07 and him telling me I had done my job better than he had hoped. **** the medals.
Guess you could call the story fascinating. To me, anyone who studies the story instead of reading it would come to the same conclusions we have. Trouble is no one wants to do it. They just accept the story at face value believing it. I did until I got that call from one of Howard's former friends before the battle. The Readers Digest story was the last thing I read before I went into the Corps in July 69. What is funny is I ended up in the same unit.
It has been my experience that guys coming out of Nam with problems had the foundation for them before going. Nam magnified them. PTSD is something you can't run from. What tells the tale is how a person handles it. I think the problem with Binns is he has never learned to handle it. It has been too easy to succumb to it. The #1 thing I learned from Recon is that the mind controls. Just as it can push the body past what is thought to be it's limit the mind can control itself. Had a guy tell me in 98 the way he handled PTSD was to make friends with it. Over the years I've come to do that. What were once terrifying dreams are now funny.
My disclaimer will always be that even though I saw some hairy **** I was never in a sustained fight like Binns. Closest I came was an all day run and gun with an anti-Recon team. It was that day I fully understood why the PT was so hard in the Recon school. It was also the day my mind showed my feet they could really move packing 80 pounds of gear. My longest fire fight went a shade over an hour. Bottom line is I don't know if my theory would work if I had been in Binns' boots.
Even though I don't care for Binns I respect him highly. Not because of the award he got or the one he may deserve, how hard he fought, or even what he did. The respect comes from his having the balls to stand in the breech. At that one point in time when the responsibility fell to him he was able to do it. Again, **** the medals and even the screw job he received. If he would concentrate and take pride in what he was able to do. Think the main reason of having two MOHs was out of the question automatically. Howard was the head cheese and most everyone already had him the hero. He was the team leader so got the glory. Holmes received the Navy Cross and a case for an upgrade for him could be made also. No way was there going to be more than one MOH awarded. I have never tried to complicate the battle or the aftermath. I believe the simple truth is what I just wrote. It also makes the most sense. The history of 488 has had 44 years to be held up as truth. No one wants to hear anything that contradicts the official records.

Lynn2
07-31-10, 07:50 PM
Thanks, but I am one of the last people here that needs to read 2nd hand stories about being in Vietnam, being in Recon, or being surrounded by the NVA like Howard and his boys were.

REMF's are full of 2nd hand stories though.

And a few like to play war games on the computer and others like to read stories then 2nd guess what went on in battles the likes of which they were never in themselves.

USNAviator
07-31-10, 10:32 PM
Been reading this post and I admit I'm intrigued. Col. actually Lt.Col I'm not sure for your reason for starting this thread but I respect your right to do so

If you had started this thread with a point you made in a later post:

"The stolen valor issue lies with the Bn Staff and the way they evaluated the actions and the subsequent awards. This had nothing to do with Howard's action or any other Marines on that hill. Once they returned to bn, the bn staff, specifically the XO was responsible for working up the awards packages."

I think it would have taken a different slant and would have eliminated some blood letting.

Don't get me started on Kerry or Fonda or the Tillman fiasco. I teach history now and and tell my class that perception is more important than reality to most people

Yes politics in the military does weigh very heavy in valor awards. Think about the fact that LBJ was "awarded" a Silver Star for a fact finding mission in 1942. An action which never occurred. Yet he wore that Silver Star lapel pin till the day he died.

JFK and his supposed Navy Cross? His old man had enough pull to request Jack be awarded the MOH but was willing to settle for the NC. Well Jack was awarded neither, he recieved a Navy Life Saving Medal, which I agree he deserved

Lt. Col, I'm not sure why you started this thread but I believe in an open forum with respect for opinions on both sides

Stepping down now

Dan

Lynn2
08-01-10, 08:00 AM
"I realized there were more than 2 MOH's given in 3d MarDiv for a battle, but I believe that was a battle involving several regiments......."

You might at least read some history.

Two MOH's from one Marine Company in a single days time.

Operation Hastings

I realize that unlike Sgt Howard you were never in Vietnam. So do some reading.

Since this thread is a 2nd guessing of MOH awards by people who were never there maybe we can continue.

Since both of the Marines were lifers (like Jimmy Howard) since both were in positions of authority (like Jimmy Howard) and since both of them no doubt had Marines that did stuff every bit as noteworthy or even more so, as these two-----just maybe we should 2nd guess their awards also.

Like the Col here who was never in Vietnam none of us were on Hastings (well at least one of us was----maybe more?) so we can read abit and then decide neither of these two were worthy also?

Maybe we can even claim that they got an award that should have gone to someone else and was based on someone elses actions just like the Col has done with Jimmy Howard.

Why not? Most of us were not in Vietnam. We can be arm chair experts just like the Col is as far as Hill 488.

Its that kind of thread.

MOH for actions on July 15 1966: John McGinty and Bob Modrzejewski K Company 3/4 -Plt Commander and Company CO

Mongoose
08-01-10, 09:13 AM
Being a combat Marine. I always found it strange that Gen. Douglas MacAuther received THE M.O.H., Distiguished Service Cross, 2 Distiguished Flying Crosses, and 7 Silver Stars , while only getting 2 Purple Hearts. Thats a lot of Valor and not much blood.