Marine fights for front yard flag

[MAJMike]

(CNN) -- Former Marine George Andres is in danger of losing his Jupiter, FL home. His homeowner's association prohibits flagpoles and he flies an American flag in his front yard. The courts have agreed and say the association can foreclose on his home to collect legal fees.

CNN "Moneyline" anchor Lou Dobbs discussed the case with Andres.

DOBBS: You've been fighting this for how long now?

ANDRES: Since 1999.

DOBBS: And what is the position of the homeowner's association? Why is it that a flag is so detrimental to their community?

ANDRES: Well, first they said that it was going to cost more to cut the grass around the pole, which is kind of funny. And then they told me that the flagpole was going to take away from the value of the property.

And I said, well, then we should be able to take away all the trees around here, because they're the same as the pole. And my pole is a portable pole. And the state government says I can do it.

DOBBS: The state government says you can do it. The courts say you can't. In fact, you're in danger of being foreclosed upon. Gov. Jeb Bush has come to your assistance. The Florida attorney general has done so. Why are you in this situation tonight?

ANDRES: Because judges don't want to go by what the state statutes say. And the judge who found against me on the foreclosure is adding a new bracket to the state law, the Constitution. And I don't know how he's doing it. But the state attorney general, Charlie Crist, is going to go into court next week and try and find out.

DOBBS: Well, you have served in the U.S. military, a former Marine. You have neighbors. You love your country. You obviously love your neighborhood and your community. What do the men and women there with whom you talk and live say to you?

ANDRES: Well, my neighbors all love my flagpole. In fact, 15 of them filed suit against the homeowner's association for using their money against a fruitful suit.

DOBBS: And, again, where's the mayor of the city of Jupiter, Florida? Where is the city council? Where in the world is your local government?

ANDRES: Well, the local government doesn't want to get involved because this is a homeowner's association.

And the homeowner's association has got its own rules. And the city of Jupiter has its rules. And my flagpole, according to their rules, is perfectly legal. It's a -- their law says 21-foot flagpole, and I only have a 20-foot flagpole.

The town says that they think it's absolutely ridiculous that this whole thing is going on. But it's above and beyond their jurisdiction.

DOBBS: Your mortgage, I presume, is paid up? The foreclosure -- the homeowner's association has the power to literally foreclose on your home?

ANDRES: Well, they're going to attempt to. It has a mortgage on it. The mortgage company would have to be paid off and I really don't know what's going to happen. I'm just hoping that we're going to get help from the state government and I hope that we're going to be able to persuade these judges that the state law clearly says what it says, and that the judge doesn't write into the law what's not written in the law.

DOBBS: Well, you have the support of Gov. Bush. You have the support of the state attorney general. It's hard to imagine that a -- a man or a woman in this country cannot put an American flag on his or her lawn if they want to. That a homeowner's association would have power that supersedes that of the state legislature, the state attorney general, the local government, is mind boggling. How far are you going to take this?

ANDRES: We're going to take this as far as we have to. Have my attorney Barry Silver, who's doing this pro bono, and he's with me all the way. He says he'll take it to the United States Supreme Court if we have to. But the United States Supreme Court has ruled on a case very similar to this in 1995, and said anything that you do on your private property with flags and signs are an expression of your feelings, which is covered under the First Amendment of the Constitution of the United States, which I feel is my right to put it up underneath the Constitution, even though the state of Florida has rules that say you can put it up, the top line is the Constitution.

DOBBS: And George, we -- we want to wish you all the luck in the world in this process. We hope that reason prevails in Florida. I can't imagine why you are still even having to -- to bear this battle as a burden there. We appreciate you taking the time. As I say, we wish you all of the best of luck.

ANDRES: No problem. I just hope that the federal government turns around and passes the addendum to the flag law that we're trying to get put in. And it will help everybody in the United States who wants to fly their flags.

[GySgtRet]

I have read of so many cases just like this one. It is OK to burn our national symbol of freedom, but don't dare display it in complete honor. It jus doesn't make any sense to me. During the Golf War a Marine Master Sargeant's daughter was assingned to a Naval vessell, she was a Sailor. The top displayed on the roof of his on home the American Flag in Christmas Lights. The neighbors in his neighborhood didn't seem to mind much. Till the Home Owner's Association brooke out the rules and he was asked to take it down. It did not get as far as this as we live 8 miles from Marine Corps Base Quantico. The top sustained his display. I'am sure that the HOA had major heartburn from all of this. By the way the tops daughter made it back safely, the top soon retired after this and moved. I have been my HOA president and we had challenges with the by-laws but never had rediculous stuff like this to put up with. George Andres if you susscribe to this, I am with you 110%.

Semper Fidelis,

GySgtRet

[thedrifter]

Some more folks voicing their opinions.......

Sempers,

Roger
:marine:


http://www.leatherneck.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=9596

[Sgt Sostand]

What are we comeing to in America he can die for our Country but he cant fly the Flag Sound crazy to me Now that where i think Washington should stept in at i just got a new home and where i live their are at lease 5 Marines and they all fly the Marine Corps flag and nothing said about it where i live the town just Love Marines we have it made here. i move out of Houston into a small town call Spring Texas and i love it Small Town America

[Sparrowhawk]

The members of the Homeowners association, hey it works in California why not a simple association?

Maybe get an actor to run for the president of the association or a grunt.... Humm,

where is this place again?


Stupid Homeowners Association ...... we may need to run another pole up their behinds...

Just my thoughs...

[greensideout]

I love to see the flag fly as much as any of you. There is one across the street from my house, another two doors down and yet another four houses the other direction.

I too live in a community with a homeowners association.
It has rules, rules that I had to accept or simply to choose not to build or buy there. There is the option of changeing the rules by ammending the bylaws of course.

To defy the rules is not really an option, as they are the guidlines that the association has set to protect the property values of it's members.

He should have set a course to change the rules, not break them.

Whether I agree or not, the flag under the current rules must be removed.

[sinjye]

The home-NAZI-owners of AMERICA (not GERMANY) Have nothing better to do but play golf and run other peoples lifes. They are suppose to work for the home owner not against them.

[GySgtRet]

Sinjye,

I agree with you 100%.

Semper Fidelis

[firstsgtmike]

"Results of recent Sun-Sentinel news polls

Sept. 11 Homeowners associations in some South Florida communities dictate everything from what color a house can be painted to whether a U.S. flag can be flown in the yard. Are they too powerful?

77.1%
Yes. Some of these associations have rules that are ridiculously petty and infringe on homeowners' rights. (3090 responses)

22.9%
No. People choose to live in these communities knowing the strict rules will keep appearances up. (917 responses)

4007 total responses
=====================
I realize that once again I am in a minority position. But it is an accumulation of experiences that convinces me that I am correct.

I proudly wore a uniform for twenty years, so uniformity is no stranger to me.

I have lived on a 40 acre ranch, in an area of ranches. I have lived in condominium apartments, in Planned Unit Developments with zero lot lines, in row townhouses, in areas where my nearest neighbor was two miles away, and on streets were my neighbor's house was twenty feet away from mine.

I have seen places where factories, auto repair shops, and stores of all kinds were built in "residential areas" adjacent to private homes. ( I wouldn't live there.)

In Daly City, a suburb of San Francisco are three blocks of wall to wall houses, sitting on the skyline. Actually brightening up the skyline because they are painted all colors of the rainbow and many have their entire front decorated with a painted mural. If I chose to live here, my house would look like all of the rest of them in the community. However, I have NEVER lived any close knit community where I would want any of those houses as a neighbor.

I have seen houses psychadelically (sp) painted, like the hippies did to their VW vans. I wouldn't want one of them as a neighbor either.

Zoning and building laws came into effect to provide a uniformity of communities. In residential subdivisions, condominium projects, and PUD's, the developer enacted additional restrictions to protect subsequent buyers, so they would know exactly the type of communiity they were buying into, even though they may be the first buyer on the block.

Yes, it is true, that there are some Homeowner Associations who have gone overboard in adding additional restrictions designed to protect appearances and thus values.

I don't believe that a residential street is the place to refurbish junk vehicles.

I also don't believe that it is outrageous to require uniformity in the placement of flags, i.e. on a bracket attached to a house. I have seen streets where every house had such a flag display, and it was a thrilling sight to see.

Yes, I'm in a minority, until your street is saturated with oil from oil changes, or the neighborhood junk collector is piling up a mountain on his front lawn, and another whose shrubbery is forcing people to walk in the gutter to pass his house. When you step in piles of dog poo because of your neghbor's collection of free roaming dogs. Pigs and goats being butchered for a bar-b-q also adds interesting sights and sounds, waking the neighborhood on a Sunday morning.

When some of this happens to you, I won't be in the minority any more, everyone will be screaming; "Were the hell is the Homeowners Association?

[EJR2285539]

Don`t give up. It`s because of vets like you that they can make up rules like this. Even if they are wrong. Maybe someday they will realize this. Semper Fi! Erick, U S M C 1966-69

[DSchmitke]

Don't give up I'm with 100% Semper Fi

[greensideout]

This is not about flying the American flag. It's about how the flag is displayed within this Homeowners Association!

He is free to display the flag. The association has no problem with that. They are saying that he may not have a flag pole in his front yard. That is really what this is all about.

Mr Andres said that he could not put it on a bracket staff because the flay would touch his shrubs. Could he trim or move the shrubs to display the flag as all others in his choosen community
or is he being unreasonable and casting the blame on the association?

I have another question. Is Mr Andres using "flag sentiment" to drive his arguement?

It appears that many have stepped in to help him in his cause by makeing changes in law, etc. What has he done except to say, "it's my way or nothing."

This makes me think of the guy that passes you on the road doing 75 mph. You think, "the speed limit is 70 mph." He thinks,"that applies to you, not ME."

[Devildogg4ever]

I understand what you are saying, greensideout! I think both sides could work together a little more. Neither one giving ground at all has made it as big as it is!!

[greensideout]

You are right Devildogg4ever, we must live in a give and take world if we are to live together.

I think Mr. Andres, I don't really KNOW of course, is like most Marines. The ol Jarhead will take the battle on head to head, nothing less. LOL. That's just the way we are and just the way I see it. God bless him, he's a brother Marine.

For those that are maybe not to sure about any of this, firstsgtmike with his post has painted the picture of it all so very well. As in, any questions now?

It's an interesting fight---we will see how it comes out.

My bet is on the Homeowners Association.

[btrogu]

Maybe we should pay the Homeowners Association a vist.

[thedrifter]

Marine Veteran's Fight to Fly the American Flag Becomes National Issue


Phil Brennan, NewsMax.com
Tuesday, Sept. 16, 2003


PALM BEACH COUNTY, Fla. – Embattled former Marine George Andres, threatened with the loss of his home because of his refusal to stop flying the American flag, can breathe easier, thanks to Sean Hannity.
His homeowners association is threatening to foreclose on his house to collect legal expenses and fines it says he owes because of his defiance of association’s orders to remove his flagpole.

Hannity assured Andres on Friday night’s "Hannity & Colmes" show that he would raise the $25,000 Andres needs to pay the claim and promised to contribute the first $5,000 out of his own pocket. Moreover, he promised to raise more money to buy and install a second flagpole on the property.

Andres has attracted nationwide attention and the praise of scores of his fellow Americans for his courage in refusing to back down on his determination to proudly display Old Glory 24 hours a day. Gov. Jeb Bush visited Andres' Jupiter home last year on Flag Day and later signed a law that allows Florida residents to fly an American flag "in a respectful manner" regardless of busybodies' rules.

Bush has sent state Attorney General Charlie Crist to assist Adres by arguing that the former Marine’s home is constitutionally protected under the state's homestead law from foreclosure by a homeowners association.

Circuit Judge Edward Fine, who had earlier approved a foreclosure, agreed in May to reconsider his order. Two weeks ago, however, Fine rejected Crist’s homestead argument and found the association had a right to file a lien.

A foreclosure sale is scheduled for Oct. 9, but Andres' attorney has filed an appeal. Andres told NewsMax.com that Crist was also appealing. Under Florida's homestead law, a homeowner’s residence cannot be taken by foreclosure except to collect back taxes or mortgages, or bills owed contractors for work on the home.

What Happened

In an interview with NewsMax, Andres explained: "I went before the board of the homeowners association four years ago and asked for permission to put the American flag on a pole, and the board gave me permission because the state of Florida had a law that was written in 1995 that said homeowners associations are prohibited from banning the flying of the American flag regardless of any rules and regulations or bylaws except for size, safety and location which must be adopted into the bylaws.

"I put the flagpole up, and seven months later a new board came in and ruled that I had violated the homeowners statutes on the flag, and I said, ‘What homeowners statute?’ They said the one that says that you have to fly the flag from your building. I asked them, ‘Where does it say that?’

"The fact is there is nothing in the homeowners documents that say where or when and state law prohibits them from saying any such thing.

"They took me into court, and they got a judge who said that I was guilty of violating the homeowners documents for flying the American flag on a flagpole. He said that it made no difference what the state law said, the homeowners documents counted. But they never found the place in the documents where it said where to put the flag."

Andres said he appealed, but the appeals court affirmed the first judge’s ruling, and five or six months later "they took us into foreclosure, and because of the homestead law, which is very clear that the only thing they can foreclose on is for taxes, mortgages or contractors' liens. The homeowners association was, however, using legal fees and fines, which does not come under the provisions of the law.

"At that point the attorney general stepped in to defend the homestead law, which is 130 years old. The judge had taken away the foreclosure order at that time, so we had another hearing before the judge five weeks ago. We explained that we were homesteaded in 1989 and all the time that this was going on. The judge said it wasn’t clear that we were homesteaded.

"The attorney general told me yesterday that the judge was in error because first of all he said that there was no such thing as Title 36 US 10. I have now sent the judge a copy of that law."

Andres cited a ruling by the U.S. Supreme Court that says anything you do on your private property – signs, flags, and anything like that - is an expression of your feelings and is covered under the First Amendment of the Constitution. The judge doesn’t want to hear that either.

"Right now the attorney general has stepped in because they want to protect the homestead law and the state’s statutes on flying the flag. So right now my attorney Barry Silver and Attorney General Charlie Crist are readying an appeal."

The homeowners association refused to talk to NewsMax.

No matter what the outcome of the appeal, this courageous veteran can be sure he won’t lose his home for flying the American flag, thanks to Sean Hannity. And the homeowners association can look foreward to continuing to learn what many of America’s enemies learned the hard way: what it’s like to go head to head with a U.S. Marine.

Semper Fi, George.

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2003/9/15/151111.shtml


Sempers,

Roger
:marine:

[03Infantry]

We fight so these people get the chance to say you can't fly the American flag because it makes property values go down??? I tell you some people just don't understand.

[greensideout]

With this NEW information, I think that Vet Marine Andres may be kicking some butt! He has put together a good fireteam. LOL

The Homeowners Association did not REALLY have a bylaw stating that a flag pole may not be placed in a front yard???
What did the judge use to conclude his opinion???

Just when I was trying to not cast doubt about our judges and courts I read about this kind of abuse from the bench. Do they really understand law or are they just trying to be the law?

Can I change my bet? I now think, with this new information that Vet Marine Andres has the Association by the gonads.

[firstsgtmike]

"I went before the board ...."

I doubt the permission was given in writing, but the minutes of the board meeting should cover it.

"....except for size, safety and location which must be adopted into the bylaws."

If location was not specified in the by-laws, then there can be no prohibition.

What did the original judge base his decision on, and why was it upheld upon appeal?

I believe THAT is the crux of the matter.

"...a ruling by the U.S. Supreme Court that says anything you do on your private property..."

This is a weak argument, because certain restrictions were accepted and certain rights were waived when buying a property that required membership in a Homeowner's Association. As we all accepted certan restrictions and waived certain rights when we enlisted.

Homestead Law. In some States the homestead must be recorded. In other states, as long as the homestead conditions are met, homestead rights are applicable without the recording requirement. I don't know which applies in Florida.

With the State Attorney General on his side and the Association By-laws failing to designate location, I think there are some judges who will have egg on their face.