PDA

View Full Version : Rifle during Boot Camp?



Phillip H
06-02-10, 09:04 AM
I was in a gun store yesterday.

I asked to look at the AR15A2 rifles; the man behind the counter seemed to give me a funny look and asked what I meant by A2, so I told him 20" barrel, carry handle. They didn't have any on their shelf of AR's, so he handed me a AR15A4 with ACOG sighting system.

Then another man said he had made it himself to Marine Corps spec. Also said he was an active duty Marine. He asked me what I wanted the rifle for, and said to familiarize myself with it for boot camp. Then the he said that the Marine Corps does not use the M16A2 rifle anymore, not even for boot camp, that they use the M16A4 with ACOG sights.

He said it was because you will probably ship to a combat environment as soon as you get out of SOI, and would not have time to properly train with the M16A4 platform.

So my question is, will I use an M16A2 with iron sights or the M16A4 with ACOG sights when I ship to boot?

I know the Army uses similar sighting systems during basic, but the Marine Corps?

Thanks,
Phillip

BR34
06-02-10, 10:18 AM
I got the A2 when I went to boot camp 3.5 years ago. Someone here mentioned not too long ago that they are starting to transition to A4s in boot camp. I'm not sure about using ACOGs in recruit training.

What you should do is talk to one of the new Marines that checks in with your recruiter from boot camp. They'll have the latest greatest scoop.

clansman5
06-02-10, 11:09 AM
I can't see recruits using the ACOG in training. The Marine Corps teaches basic marksmenship. What would you do if your ACOG didn't work when in combat. You have to rely on your iron sights.

FattyTheFerret
06-02-10, 12:18 PM
We didn't use glass until MCT. Boot camp was M16A2s with iron sights. This was two years ago for me.

That being said, the two rifles are practically identical. And a basic AR15 will get you familiar with the workings of an M16 but careful not to teach yourself any bad habits that you'll have to unlearn. The thing with the rifle range is that even if you've been shooting since you were five, you are taught and must fire the way the Marine Corps tells you to fire, not the way you've been shooting all your life.

gonzo4
06-02-10, 02:45 PM
We had the M16A2 in boot camp and the A4 in MCT. You will do Iron sights in boot camp and have the ACOG in MCT. this is like 6 months ago... If you can shoot with an iron sight the ACOG is no problem. Now I am pretty sure the females get issued the collapsable buttstock in bootcamp for good. But I hear males may be getting them soon as well. But my advice just wait until bootcamp to learn the rifle. That is what the range is for.... And you will learn it.

BR34
06-02-10, 02:48 PM
We had the M16A2 in boot camp and the A4 in MCT. You will do Iron sights in boot camp and have the ACOG in MCT. this is like 6 months ago... If you can shoot with an iron sight the ACOG is no problem. Now I am pretty sure the females get issued the collapsable buttstock in bootcamp for good. But I hear males may be getting them soon as well. But my advice just wait until bootcamp to learn the rifle. That is what the range is for.... And you will learn it.

They get A2s with collapsible butt stock?

gonzo4
06-02-10, 02:51 PM
yes they do

derikdrock1989
06-02-10, 06:02 PM
Hes wrong i graduated from boot April 2 and we still used the M16A2 with Iron sights. You use the A4 with acog at ITB and MCT.

WXSgt
06-02-10, 06:14 PM
they dont make an a2 with a collapsible stock those are m4's im pretty sure lol

ameriken
06-02-10, 06:30 PM
He said it was because you will probably ship to a combat environment as soon as you get out of SOI, and would not have time to properly train with the M16A4 platform.

Phillip, let me throw at totally different idea out there.

Let the Corps give you the training you need? You'll do just fine not knowing a thing about the weapon they give you in Boot Camp.

The Corps has over 230 year experience of turning totally ignorant civilians who know nothing about rifles into marksman, sharpshooters, and experts, many of whom have gone off to war to win the battles they face, even if they fight with a different weapon than what they learned on in Boot Camp.

By trying to get step ahead of your Boot Camp training, you may actually develop some ideas and habits that could actually make things more difficult for you because your Drill Instructors have to unfvck everything you thought you knew.

Go there as a dry sponge and then suck up everything they throw at you.

Just my thoughts from one of those totally-ignorant-civilians-who-knew-nothing-about-rifles-turned-expert.

Good luck to you...:beer:

WXSgt
06-02-10, 06:30 PM
also we do still use a2 iron sights and a4s with iron sights. when i was on miramar since the units arent deploying always they still had a2's the heavy deploying units get the a4's and its up to your command if u get the "RCO" aka acog.

BR34
06-02-10, 06:59 PM
they dont make an a2 with a collapsible stock those are m4's im pretty sure lol

I don't know. I read something a while back about the Army fielding A4s with collapsible stocks. I don't understand the reasoning behind putting different stocks on those 30 year old A2s though.

Quinbo
06-02-10, 07:24 PM
There are enough differences between the civilian AR-15 and the military M-16 that you will do yourself more harm than good trying to self teach on the civilian version.

tangovictor87
06-02-10, 11:37 PM
It doesn't make sense to issue the A4's in boot. You only really fire the rifle one week. Drill would be kinda difficult with an RCO. Save your money, you'll have plenty of time to learn the in's and out's of the M16 service rifle. The only thing you can do to be better prepared for boot camp is physical conditioning.

firedog974
06-02-10, 11:46 PM
It doesn't make sense to issue the A4's in boot. You only really fire the rifle one week. Drill would be kinda difficult with an RCO. Save your money, you'll have plenty of time to learn the in's and out's of the M16 service rifle. The only thing you can do to be better prepared for boot camp is physical conditioning.

That is a great point. Your initial PFT (IST) at receiving, you will probably loose 5 to 10 guys just for failing the IST. You may loose 1 or 2 guys for going UNK on the range. Focus on what is important.

Phillip H
06-03-10, 03:07 PM
Thanks for all the information and advise.

I am trying to be careful about the learning of bad habits and improper techniques. The purpose of owning the rifle would be mostly learning to take it apart and putting it back together, and cleaning it, among other reasons. I would do very little actual firing.

Right now my main focus is on physical training. I am in the third class PFT. I plan on having a first class PFT score before I ship to boot camp. I have the time and body to do it.

JCampbell
06-03-10, 03:15 PM
If you go to San Diego, you should be using an A4 with iron sights. My company and about 5-6 companies behind us were all using A2s, but when we went to turn in our weapons, the armory was working on a whole bunch of A4s getting ready to issue them to recruits.

My drill instructors were happy enough with the change, because A4s are heavier. I foresee much rifle IT upcoming for some future Alpha company recruits....

Lisa 23
06-03-10, 03:25 PM
Thanks for all the information and advise.

I am trying to be careful about the learning of bad habits and improper techniques. The purpose of owning the rifle would be mostly learning to take it apart and putting it back together, and cleaning it, among other reasons. I would do very little actual firing.

Right now my main focus is on physical training. I am in the third class PFT. I plan on having a first class PFT score before I ship to boot camp. I have the time and body to do it.

Young man, everything that you will need to know about about the rifle, will be taught to you the Marine Corps way.
Just focus on getting yourself into shape and learning Marine Corps knowledge.

fmoyer
06-03-10, 03:28 PM
The best marksmen we had were the guys who had never fired a weopon in thier life it was easy for them to learn the Marine Corps way of doing it.

tangovictor87
06-03-10, 06:34 PM
\The purpose of owning the rifle would be mostly learning to take it apart and putting it back together, and cleaning it, among other reasons. I would do very little actual firing.

Right now my main focus is on physical training. I am in the third class PFT. I plan on having a first class PFT score before I ship to boot camp. I have the time and body to do it.

Go to YouTube and search "Field Striping an M16" It's cheaper then going out and buying a rifle. As stated before, you will have plenty of time to learn about the M16 in boot camp. A 3rd class PFT ain't sh!t, it just means you passed.

Phillip H
06-03-10, 07:19 PM
Young man, everything that you will need to know about about the rifle, will be taught to you the Marine Corps way.
Just focus on getting yourself into shape and learning Marine Corps knowledge.

Go to YouTube and search "Field Striping an M16" It's cheaper then going out and buying a rifle. As stated before, you will have plenty of time to learn about the M16 in boot camp. When it comes down to it, I just want one... Before some unnamed person reinstates his version of the Clinton weapons ban.


A 3rd class PFT ain't sh!t, it just means you passed. Yes I know. That's why I am going for 1st.


Hes wrong i graduated from boot April 2 and we still used the M16A2 with Iron sights. You use the A4 with acog at ITB and MCT. I was thinking he was just trying to make a sell.


Go there as a dry sponge and then suck up everything they throw at you. Yes yes.

tangovictor87
06-03-10, 07:40 PM
When it comes down to it, I just want one... Before some unnamed person reinstates his version of the Clinton weapons ban.


Well in that case have at it. I'd get the Ruger SR 556.

eleventen32
06-03-10, 11:35 PM
Yes, we had M16A2's with collapsible stocks in boot camp and M16A4's in MCT. BTW collapsible stocks absolutely suck for drill.



they dont make an a2 with a collapsible stock those are m4's im pretty sure lol

Sgt Leprechaun
06-04-10, 05:40 PM
1: Do NOT, repeat, NOT, attempt to train yourself, or have someone else 'train' you in marksmanship. Or even stripping the weapon. There is a certain way that the drill instructors want it done, and it will be done THAT way and no other. You do yourself more harm than good by trying to 'familiarize' yourself on your own, and I don't care who is 'helping' you do it.

2: Spend your time improving your PT score. It will be better spent and pay off in the long run. Period. Save the weapons crap for later.

3: If you want to have a 'boot camp' graduation present, either 'gift yourself' with the weapon you want or have your parents do it for you. But only AFTER you graduate.

Quinbo
06-04-10, 06:46 PM
AR's don't have a front take down pin. There is a screw that requires a tool. There is not a 3 round burst seer. The selector lever says safe .. fire ... safe. The 3 round burst seer has 3 different trigger pulls. The trigger weight varies on slow fire. Some AR's stil have the A-1 sights. Front and rear are designed to be adjusted with a round and there is no elevation knob. Kentucky windage. We don't use it any more.

You go practicing with a across the shelf AR you'll produce many bad habits and no good ones.

Marine84
06-04-10, 07:59 PM
What freakin' difference does it make WHAT you shoot? We'll teach you how to shoot it, clean it, tear it apart, put it back together and love it. We'll even make you give it a "female" name!

WXSgt
06-05-10, 03:17 PM
Yes, we had M16A2's with collapsible stocks in boot camp and M16A4's in MCT. BTW collapsible stocks absolutely suck for drill.

again they do not make a2s with collapible stocks those are m4's!

crazymjb
06-05-10, 11:06 PM
First off, if you want an AR-15 for whatever your personal reasons are, fine. Get whatever you want, don't spend all that money to get a "boot camp A2 style AR." I am not going to tell you not to get an AR because you will absolutely build bad habits. By all means, get one set up how you want, and have fun with it. Better yet, build one (like I did) and you'll ahve a much better understanding of how everything works, granted the fire control group will be much different). When you get to boot though, listen to the PMIs and only the PMIs, forget everything you think you know. Also, by way of having personal weapons, it is going to be a huge PITA to try to move around with it once you are out of school, especially WRT base housing.

Yes, you could have a collapsible stock on an A2. The M4 has a shorter barrel and a carbine length gas system, as well as a carbine buffer setup. You can run a full length M16 upper on a lower with a carbine buffer and collapsible stock, and it would not be an M4.

Additionally, you can configure an AR-15 to be identical to an A2 with the only difference being the fire select. As a result the trigger weight may be slightly different but not by much.

I have no idea if there is any truth to this but my friend told me they are getting rid of PMI's and replacing them all with range coaches, and will be nixing irons all togher. I know that during re-qual we can use ACOGs and bipods now, basically our actual combat setup. I hope that they don't get rid of the PMIs and fundamentals in boot, because as someone who is become a much more avid shooter in the private sector, I can't stress how valuable those fundamentals are. for any firearms application.

Mike

BR34
06-06-10, 10:36 AM
again they do not make a2s with collapible stocks those are m4's!

Yes, they do.

Here's the actual contract issued from the DoD to TACOM.

https://aais.ria.army.mil/AAIS/Padds_web/W52H0909R0219/0000.pdf

WXSgt
06-06-10, 10:36 PM
Yes, they do.

Here's the actual contract issued from the DoD to TACOM.

https://aais.ria.army.mil/AAIS/Padds_web/W52H0909R0219/0000.pdf

that was for testing only so technically im wrong there but the order was cancelled

https://aais.ria.army.mil/aais/padds_web/W52H0909R0219/0001.pdf

furthermore that was army not Marines

Mercracer
06-13-10, 03:10 PM
AR's don't have a front take down pin. There is a screw that requires a tool. There is not a 3 round burst seer. The selector lever says safe .. fire ... safe. The 3 round burst seer has 3 different trigger pulls. The trigger weight varies on slow fire. Some AR's stil have the A-1 sights. Front and rear are designed to be adjusted with a round and there is no elevation knob. Kentucky windage. We don't use it any more.

You go practicing with a across the shelf AR you'll produce many bad habits and no good ones.

I have a different opinion on the matter.
Most all standard AR15 and AR10 platform rifles have both front and rear push style take-down pins. Most all AR15 rifles with the exception of some Colt models have the same size take down pins which would allow a AR15 upper or lower to physically attach together with a M16 upper or lower.
There is no practical shooting difference between a standard AR15 A2 and a M16 A2 with the exception of the 3rd position of the selector lever. Normally you only use safe and fire at the range in the Corps anyway which are the first 2 postions and are the same as a AR15. The trigger pull is slightly different because of the burst sear but that is a minor difference. The sights are of the same style and type both front and rear.
Attending a NRA High Power Service Rifle clinic or an Appleseed shoot with a "Mil Spec" AR15 A2 will not hurt anything and can help you get familiarized with the M16 platform including the proper use of the web sling. The Appleseed program trains (as the preferred sling) with the same web sling that the Corps uses. I can tell you that past poolees who have attended an Appleseed have given feedback that it helped them shoot Expert in boot camp. Active duty Marines have claimed that their scores improved after attending a weekend Appleseed.