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View Full Version : M-4 Not Suited For Warfare in Afghan Hills



Rocky C
05-21-10, 07:15 AM
By Slobodan Lekic - The Associated Press
Posted : Friday May 21, 2010 7:42:35 EDT
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KABUL, Afghanistan — The U.S. military's workhorse rifle — used in battle for the last 40 years — is proving less effective in Afghanistan against the Taliban's more primitive but longer range weapons.

As a result, the U.S. is re-evaluating the performance of its standard M-4 rifle and considering a switch to weapons that fire a larger round largely discarded in the 1960s.

The M-4 is an updated version of the M-16, which was designed for close quarters combat in Vietnam. It worked well in Iraq, where much of the fighting was in cities such as Baghdad, Ramadi and Fallujah.

But an Army study found that the 5.56mm bullets fired from M-4s don't retain enough velocity at distances greater than 1,000 feet to kill an adversary. In hilly regions of Afghanistan, NATO and insurgent forces are often 2,000 to 2,500 feet apart.

Afghans have a tradition of long-range ambushes against foreign forces. During the 1832-1842 British-Afghan war, the British found that their Brown Bess muskets could not reach insurgent sharpshooters firing higher-caliber Jezzail flintlocks.

Soviet soldiers in the 1980s found that their AK-47 rifles could not match the World War II-era bolt-action Lee-Enfield and Mauser rifles used by mujahedeen rebels.

"These are important considerations in Afghanistan, where NATO forces are frequently attacked by insurgents using ... sharpshooter's rifles, which are all chambered for a full-powered cartridge which dates back to the 1890s," said Paul Cornish, curator of firearms at the Imperial War Museum in London.

The heavier bullets enable Taliban militants to shoot at U.S. and NATO soldiers from positions well beyond the effective range of the coalition's rifles.

To counter these tactics, the U.S. military is designating nine soldiers in each infantry company to serve as sharpshooters, according to Maj. Thomas Ehrhart, who wrote the Army study. They are equipped with the new M-110 sniper rifle, which fires a larger 7.62mm round and is accurate to at least 2,500 feet.

At the heart of the debate is whether a soldier is better off with the more-rapid firepower of the 5.56mm bullets or with the longer range of the 7.62 mm bullets.

"The reason we employ the M-4 is because it's a close-in weapon, since we anticipate house-to-house fighting in many situations," said Lt. Col. Denis J. Riel, a NATO spokesman.

He added that each squad also has light machine guns and automatic grenade launchers for the long-range engagements common in Afghanistan.

In the early years of the Vietnam War, the Army's standard rifle was the M-14, which fired a 7.62 mm bullet. The gun had too much recoil to be controllable during automatic firing and was considered too unwieldy for close-quarter jungle warfare. The M-16 replaced it in the mid-1960s.
Lighter bullets also meant soldiers could carry more ammunition on lengthy jungle patrols.

The M-16 started a general trend toward smaller cartridges. Other weapons such as the French FAMAS and the British L85A1 adopted them, and the round became standardized as the "5.56mm NATO."

The Soviet Union, whose AK-47 already used a shorter 7.62mm bullet that was less powerful but more controllable, created a smaller 5.45mm round for its replacement AK-74s.

"The 5.56 mm caliber is more lethal since it can put more rounds on target," said Col. Douglas Tamilio, program manager for U.S. Army firearms at the Picatinny Arsenal in New Jersey. "But at 500-600 meters (1,600-2,000 feet), the round doesn't have stopping power, since the weapon system was never designed for that."

The arsenal, which is the Army's center for small-arms development, is trying to find a solution.

A possible compromise would be an interim-caliber round combining the best characteristics of the 5.56mm and 7.62mm cartridges, Tamilio said.
The challenge is compounded by the fact that in flat areas of Afghanistan, most firefights take place at shorter ranges of up to 1,000 feet, where the M-4 performs well.

U.S. soldiers in militant-infested Zhari district in southern Afghanistan's Kandahar province said they haven't experienced problems with the range of their M-4 rifles.

Lt. Scott Doyle, a platoon commander in Zhari, said his troops are usually facing Taliban AK-47s.

"When the Taliban get past 300 meters (1,000 feet) with an AK-47, they are just spraying and praying," he said.

Martin Fackler, a ballistics expert, also defended the 5.56mm round, blaming the M-4s inadequate performance on its short barrel, which makes it easier for soldiers to scramble out of modern armored vehicles.

"Unfortunately weapon engineers shortened the M-16's barrel to irrational lengths," Fackler said. "It was meant for a 20-inch barrel. What they've done by cutting the barrel to 14.5 inches is that they've lost a lot of velocity."

hbharrison
05-21-10, 07:32 AM
I wandered when some at the top would get the hint just maybe our Marines will get something with a little more punch to it, old stand by M-14's maybe or anything in 7.62 would be better than what they are using oh crap give'em BMG's that will work

polizei
05-21-10, 10:02 AM
Omg yes, please a .308! Or a .338 Lapua. Yum

fmoyer
05-21-10, 12:26 PM
Dig out the old BAR,s and M-!'s good range and stoping power. Get back to basic shooting skills for everone. Every Marine is a rifleman lets make them all good ones.

hbharrison
05-21-10, 12:30 PM
Check with some big ammo dealers they said there is more .308 around and being made than .338 and I have been told there a lot of M14's still in the inventory but no matter get the things to the Marines and they will take it from there.:thumbup::flag:

m14ed
05-21-10, 01:05 PM
We used to have some good toys in the old days and one infantry training
regiment system that everyone got as a starter course.
Are'nt the Young supposed to profit from the Mistakes of their elders ?




Dig out the old BAR,s and M-!'s good range and stoping power. Get back to basic shooting skills for everone. Every Marine is a rifleman lets make them all good ones.

and OTHER ANTIQUES maybe like ??1911a1 pistol, M 60/pig & m14,s ,????

Ready on the right, ready on the left, all ready on the Firing Line,

:thumbup:

SGT7477
05-21-10, 02:13 PM
The 300 Ultra Mag would work just fine,lol.

Zulu 36
05-21-10, 02:40 PM
I see the article quotes Dr Martin Fackler, MD. This guy knows his stuff when it comes to terminal ballistics. I've always thought it was dumb to reduce the M-16 barrel length so short.

Dr Fackler has shown that severe wounds from intermediate caliber assault rifles are not due to yawing or cavitation (i.e. from tumbling), but instead due to fragmentation of the bullet. This requires a certain velocity level to accomplish when it strikes the primary target. Higher powered combat rifle rounds (7.62 and similar calibers) inflict their wounds somewhat differently because of bullet size and weight.

I suppose it doesn't matter much when you're shooting across a room, or even across a street. But start getting some real ranges involved and the 5.56mm doesn't quite make it out of a short barrel. I think much over 500 meters with even a 20" barrel is pushing it.

The 5.56 is very sensitive to intermediate targets (leaves, brush, windows, walls, etc) not to mention cross wind. The 7.62 is much more forgiving.

I could shoot bulls at 500 meters with an M-4 length barrel, but I was an experienced KD range shooter by that time with an M-1, M-14, and M-16. Not every Marine or soldier has that kind of experience.

Bill25
05-21-10, 03:46 PM
Anything in 7.62. Could always put a thinner jacket on it like the west germans did by mistake if you want breaking up inside like 5.56.

montana
05-21-10, 05:22 PM
it all about hydraulics....put on a longer barrole...gain 32 fps per inch of barrole.....high speed on inpackt....have seen deer shot with 223.....with 24 inch barrole...bullet speed 3,300 fps...hit the deear in the neck....found blood shot in hinde quarters....blew out all the bloodvessels....try ta save someone that has had that .....load them babbys up.....i could fire the m14 full auto....but my expiriance you are much more likely to hit what your shooting at semi auto any way...bullets last longer.....what ever happend to calling in arty???...they want long range...give it to um

LandsNGrooves
05-22-10, 06:01 PM
People need to make up there minds.

Do you want every pair of boots to be able to reach out 1000m?
There are a lot of ways this article could go but my vote is this.

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2007/12/magpul-masada-cutaway-diagram.jpg

Quick change barrel system allows tailoring for the mission. The Lite version can fire 5.56 AND 6.8. Switching from one to the other only required a barrel and bolt change. The ACR heavy version fires the 7.62 nato. Its pistol driven vs Direct Gas Impingement, soo the bolt runs cool and clean. All controls are ambi, and the bolt resease is No. 17, which means the bolt can see locked and sent into battery with the pistol grip hand.

hbharrison
05-22-10, 08:19 PM
I just hope what ever they come with works the first time out of the box and our guys can use them without problems.

micarr57
05-22-10, 09:39 PM
what no m=60 how about the m-85 reach out n touch someone

kenrobg30
05-23-10, 12:36 PM
We used to have some good toys in the old days and one infantry training
regiment system that everyone got as a starter course.
Are'nt the Young supposed to profit from the Mistakes of their elders ?





and OTHER ANTIQUES maybe like ??1911a1 pistol, M 60/pig & m14,s ,????

Ready on the right, ready on the left, all ready on the Firing Line,

:thumbup:

You left something out Ed. When we went to the range, we got an old Sgt, as an instructor, Who started, and ended every session with the four words at the top. I'd love to see every Marine, shoot like Hathcock. I still believe, Our young Marines should shoot for the money. One shot, one kill, ammo is expensive. :marine: S/F!!! Ken

sparkie
05-23-10, 03:25 PM
I've qualled with the 14 and the 16. Gimme the 14. When I wanna play down range, I prefeer my Enfield .308.

hbharrison
05-23-10, 03:52 PM
I've qualled with the 14 and the 16. Gimme the 14. When I wanna play down range, I prefeer my Enfield .308.

I am with you on this one Sparkie I qualled with just the M-14 all the M-16 were being ship over the pond during that time but I have been shooting the .308 for ever and I have not found anything to beat it yet some come close but on cigar. Don't wish to get up close and personal with the one who is shooting at me just want to put one in his azz and call it a day. :D :flag:

grunti39
05-25-10, 05:57 AM
M-14 on full-auto?
I was fortunate to have the M-14 in Vietnam from July '66 until it was replaced with the Matte Mattel in April '67. Whenever a FNG showed up in my squad, we took the opportunity while he was acquiring his battle sights to burn off ammo that may have been humped in the bush previously. One test of skill for all was to see if anyone could, in the off-hand position, fire a full magazine on target. It NEVER happened! After the 3rd round, the barrel starts rising off target. I taught my Marines to cradle the butt stock turned 90 degrees in the bend of the arm. When firing into tree lines, which we did a great deal, the rise in the barrel was parallel to the deck thus still technically on target. I've witnessed first hand the dramatic difference between killing the enemy with a 7.62 vs. a 5.56! It is no contest! I owe my life to a M-14 and Marines that were all disciplined marksmen! I still also remember the horrific sight of our brothers from B/1/9 on Hill 881 on April 30, 1967. New M-16s that were useless when the brass froze in the chamber and the extractor would not eject the spent round. Only one cleaning rod per Fireteam was issued due to rushing this piece of crap into the field. Marines died while throwing rocks at the NVA. A sad day then and they will always be remembered by the Marines who brought their bodies off that mountain! Semper Fidelis

hbharrison
05-25-10, 07:42 AM
67 I to can remember hualen the body bags from GR to the air strip then putting them on C-130's to be taken back to Oki then home for the last time. Those of us who worked in supply line just did not understand why they did not send the right gear with those M-16's and some of the guys were taking the cleaning rods out of the 14's and shipping them out with the MM so the grunts would have something. Still have nightmares about those d*mn body bags these grunts in Afgan need a better weapon and the need it now and with all the right gear and ammo to go with them hope they get it and sone.

montana
05-25-10, 08:16 AM
grunti39...the M14 can be fired full auto...i came home 125 lb....and made out gunner mad every time we fan fired our ammo....the trick is not to try to ancker the but of the stalk....Big Mike would whach me burn a cupple mags....then try to but he would put the stalk aginst his shoulder or hip....and get 5 rounds between 90 and strait up...after a few trys he would toss my 14 to me and mumble things about dam midgets.....i would step ahed one step then oppen up ....never had to push down on the berral....just made little circles....M14 and i pulled our squad out of quite a few ambushes....i was fireing pure tracers full auto....was sure purdy from my end
and it stoped gooks as well as water buffalow.....

FistFu68
05-25-10, 10:43 AM
:evilgrin: I just got back from AZ, I took my Weapon of choice an M-1-Garand with Match grade barrel 30-06,I shoot Hornady 165 grainers or 180's for the Druggie Mules Engine blocks...don't need no Fucing Scope even got my PaPas WW11 Bayonet thats sharper than a Razor for that up close and Personal Chit...If you catch my Drift? Swift Silent Deadly S/F :iwo::thumbup:

grunti39
05-25-10, 02:30 PM
Montana.... I stated it can't be done from the "Off Hand" position which is shoulder fired. Anyone can do it from the hip if you place your hand on top to hold it down. Typically, unaimed fire was frowned upon but as we all know, fireteam rushes into tree-lines work best when your squad is keeping the enemy's head in a hole!

Zulu 36
05-25-10, 02:40 PM
grunti39...the M14 can be fired full auto...i came home 125 lb....and made out gunner mad every time we fan fired our ammo....the trick is not to try to ancker the but of the stalk....Big Mike would whach me burn a cupple mags....then try to but he would put the stalk aginst his shoulder or hip....and get 5 rounds between 90 and strait up...after a few trys he would toss my 14 to me and mumble things about dam midgets.....i would step ahed one step then oppen up ....never had to push down on the berral....just made little circles....M14 and i pulled our squad out of quite a few ambushes....i was fireing pure tracers full auto....was sure purdy from my end
and it stoped gooks as well as water buffalow.....

I've shot an M-14 full-auto (in the Air Guard of all places). Even with the full-auto version's heavy stock, on a bi-pod, from prone, three-round bursts are the max you can get any reasonable accuracy from. Not to mention it heats up really fast on full auto. I did shoot it from standing too, but no real control up there. Your first round will probably be on target, but the next couple are up in the air (literally very likely).

It was still fun to shoot and I can brag that I did. Of course, when is shooting on a range not fun? :D

montana
05-25-10, 08:36 PM
you dont hold it aginst your hip....you let it work long side your hip....and you best not hold down or you will shoot your feet....only have to point in direction you want to shoot...i liked to make small circles..i could put all twenty in a car door at 50 yards....that aint no ****.....on step forward....oppen up...would push me back one step...while changing mag would take the step forward
i woul get it so hot it sizeled and poped....could not touch the gaurd on top of the barrol....i was shooting pure tracers also...added to the heat