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LandsNGrooves
04-24-10, 01:07 AM
Begin Rant. <br />
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Just got done with range week, ended table 2 today.I'm no Devgru operator or anything but just to clear things up for some Marines who left the fundamentals back at MCT. . . . <br />
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THIS...

Quinbo
04-24-10, 01:48 AM
Is it ok if I point and laugh?

LandsNGrooves
04-24-10, 08:19 AM
please do

irizavrima
04-27-10, 12:49 PM
Time to use those observation skills you just learned at boot camp! The vest that these Marines are wearing are known as interceptors...It is nearly impossible to keep your buttstock in the shoulder pocket because the gear is just that trashy. In the fleet, you will not deploy with those vests anymore because they don't offer you enough protection, have horrible weight distribution and because you can not keep the weapon in your shoulder. I don't blame the Marines at all in this picture, it is the cheap, unpractical gear that is at fault.

Covey_Rider
04-27-10, 03:21 PM
Well the MTV was definitely a step BACKWARD when it comes to being able to keep a weapon in your shoulder. Most vests that the Marine Corps issues are horrible for maintaining a proper combat stance. The plate carrier isn't too bad however there are still many better options out there.

thewookie
04-27-10, 04:59 PM
I'm missing the point of this thread. <br />
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I don't see anyone charging a weapon at the deck, WTF. <br />
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I do, however, charge my weapon with my strong hand, I can't really see another way to do it....

Covey_Rider
04-27-10, 05:55 PM
Wookie, much love brother.

LandsNGrooves
04-28-10, 02:04 PM
I don't see anyone charging a weapon at the deck, WTF. quote] <br />
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That was me referencing other shooters I witnessed at the range, not the one picture from google I decided to use as example

RYDERKUR
04-28-10, 03:01 PM
Well, I've got several things. First off, the dude you have pictured is, in my opinion, doing it wrong also. His arm should be tight to the body, not out like that and with his hand on the farthest part of the handguards. Plus it's like the Wook said, it's all personal preference in the end, whatever you have to do to get the weapon firing as quickly as possible. Plus, all the POGs at MCT are probably more concerned about the remedial action of a stapler, than they are of their rifle that they fire one time a year at the range. :D :D :D

LandsNGrooves
04-28-10, 03:12 PM
Well, I've got several things. First off, the dude you have pictured is, in my opinion, doing it wrong also. His arm should be tight to the body, not out like that and with his hand on the farthest part of the handguards. Plus it's like the Wook said, it's all personal preference in the end, whatever you have to do to get the weapon firing as quickly as possible. Plus, all the POGs at MCT are probably more concerned about the remedial action of a stapler, than they are of their rifle that they fire one time a year at the range. :D :D :D

I dont run my support hand like he does, but Im not 14y force recon like Travis.

And as for "all the POGs at MCT are probably more concerned about the remedial action of a stapler, than they are of their rifle that they fire one time a year at the range. " Me being a superPOG, I completly agree with you.

Hanzo
04-28-10, 03:50 PM
I'm not HSLD, never been in combat and didn't go through the new shooting courses. I do, however, shoot a lot. <br />
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I've heard your arguements by many people, and I'm sorry, but I disagree, and...

Quinbo
04-28-10, 09:34 PM
I can't see the second picture. I was pointing and laughing at the first one. That has to be the most effed up looking off hand stance I've ever seen.

Komenko
04-28-10, 10:22 PM
Doesn't anyone listen to their PMIs or Coaches anymore! Jesus that first guy is a laughing stock ready to get shot in the ass, and the second picture with the Marine's hand on/near the magazine well will get his 2nd clip in well before the first guy! Knees bent, ass out, squared up with target! oh as for the second picture i'm talking about the Marine thats doing it correctly. 3rd Marine down the line!!! although he could bend his knees a little more! also what dumb ass RSO let the Camera man behind the Firing line!

LandsNGrooves
04-29-10, 11:21 AM
Jesus that first guy is a laughing stock ready to get shot in the ass, and the second picture with the Marine's hand on/near the magazine well will get his 2nd clip in well before the first guy! !

"clip"? really?wow.


That first guys name is Travis Haley. His bio is here, and I seriously doubt that Marine pictured can run a rifle better.
http://www.magpuldynamics.com/mission/index.shtml

thewookie
04-29-10, 12:03 PM
Back to my original comments, what is the point of this thread? Is it to get Travis some PR?

LandsNGrooves
04-29-10, 01:46 PM
Back to my original comments, what is the point of this thread? Is it to get Travis some PR?


"just to clear things up for some Marines who left the fundamentals back at MCT. . . . "

He was just the quickest search to find a good picture.

hawks
04-29-10, 02:09 PM
You shoot the best way for you. Just like your flak, you set your flak up that best suites you.

Komenko
04-29-10, 08:44 PM
"clip"? really?wow.


That first guys name is Travis Haley. His bio is here, and I seriously doubt that Marine pictured can run a rifle better.
http://www.magpuldynamics.com/mission/index.shtml

lmao give me a break!!!!! atleast i didn't say striper clip! and don't you mean fire a rifle better cause anyone can run with a rifle! And i'm sure he can fire his rifle better cause he is the one developing classes along with testing them and his instructors to his course curriculum! you can't tell me you didn't know what the hell was going on while getting classes tought to you in MTU by Instructors that just were tought the new (at the time) CMP cause it was different than from what you were tought in boot camp!

funny story to go along with this. I was a block NCO on Wilcox range during field fire (that is what the CMP classes are for!) and had nothing but staff and officers on the line. they heard one pop and every single one of them started firing! try yelling cease fire over 25 rifles firing at once!

So LandsNGrooves do you have a secondary MOS of 0931 or 0933? just wondering!

RYDERKUR
04-29-10, 08:45 PM
You shoot the best way for you. Just like your flak, you set your flak up that best suites you.

Unless you have higher ups who think they know the one way a flak should be set up for every Marine. Uniformity over practicality...pssshh

thewookie
04-29-10, 09:02 PM
"just to clear things up for some Marines who left the fundamentals back at MCT. . . . "

He was just the quickest search to find a good picture.

I think your whole story STINKS. Just like this thread, Devil Dog.

I find it very odd and rather ironic that "he was just the quickest search to find a good picture" but in almost the same breath you had his bio ready to doll out.

I was born at night, but not last night.

I think you have some man-love for Travis.

I don't know Travis, but we share some of the same friends through BW.

The thread is stupid, it smells like crap, and you are full of it.

RYDERKUR
04-29-10, 09:24 PM
I think your whole story STINKS. Just like this thread, Devil Dog.

I find it very odd and rather ironic that "he was just the quickest search to find a good picture" but in almost the same breath you had his bio ready to doll out.

I was born at night, but not last night.

I think you have some man-love for Travis.

I don't know Travis, but we share some of the same friends through BW.

The thread is stupid, it smells like crap, and you are full of it.

Yut! Call it like it is!

zx6rdr
04-29-10, 09:29 PM
I was a block NCO on Wilcox range during field fire (that is what the CMP classes are for!) and had nothing but staff and officers on the line. they heard one pop and every single one of them started firing! try yelling cease fire over 25 rifles firing at once!

So LandsNGrooves do you have a secondary MOS of 0931 or 0933? just wondering!

:sick::thumbup::thumbup:

zx6rdr
04-29-10, 09:35 PM
Unless you have higher ups who think they know the one way a flak should be set up for every Marine. Uniformity over practicality...pssshh

Unless you said.... F*** that and did it your own way; yeah get my ass chewed every time a SNCO walks by, but I rather have my ass chewed than be DeD!!!!! (yes, I spelled it like that).... But, alas, by the time I saw anything I was re-called off IRR and pround of it (at the same time a little ****ed) so whatever is whatever.......

USNAviator
04-29-10, 09:52 PM
Back to my original comments, what is the point of this thread? Is it to get Travis some PR?

Could be but I think it's more likely to get Magpul Dynanmics some exposure!! Care to share Travis' curriculum vitae? Perhaps some facts will answer the doubts exhibited by the gentlemen present? Just a suggestion.

Dan

USNAviator
04-29-10, 10:12 PM
thewookie

Did not mean to include you in my post #24, if I did I apologize. But I have to agree this whole thing stinks. My remarks were intended to the original post.

Dan

LandsNGrooves
04-30-10, 06:20 AM
[quote=Komenko;638773] and don't you mean fire a rifle better cause anyone can run with a rifle! quote]

opps I worded that wrong. Substitute "operate" in place of run.

LandsNGrooves
04-30-10, 06:28 AM
I
I find it very odd and rather ironic that "he was just the quickest search to find a good picture" but in almost the same breath you had his bio ready to doll out.




ok, google image "kyle defoor" should be the 2nd image. I cant access it right now. See his stance is very similer, even the wierd support hand fully stretched out? I dont have a bio for him, all I know is hes on some show with Larry Vickers and he was a SEAL.

LandsNGrooves
04-16-11, 09:58 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a1f6MaUaF30

LandsNGrooves
05-06-11, 12:26 PM
Grabbing the magwell or close to it with your support hand is like grabbing a pencil by the eraser and trying to write. In the Marine Corps, we are ****ing our selves by always having targets right next to each other, So people never train to agressivelly drive the muzzle from target to target.

Its all about recoil control and target transition. Of course, all the Billy Badasses want to derp with "your shooting a 556 rifle, it dosent have any recoil herp derp", but unless your sights don't move at all when you shoot, you should be looking for a way to get them to stop. How? Well position refinement is done on ART for a reason. When you shoot on burst, where does the muzzle go? This will tell you whats wrong w your platform. Does your muzzle go up and to the left?(75% of shooting seem to do this)? your prob standing straight up and bladed. Rounds going straight up? Good, your squared up, but not leaning forward enough? Rounds to the left? Push you hand out, lock the wrist and hold that ***** down. Now what happend? Your controlled pairs just disappeared bc you have confidence in your position, and you know your sight will be waiting on you, not the other way around.



If you fallow top compitition shooters and top level military units, youll find they all use a similier style forward support hand.

Travis Haley Former Force Recon/Blackwater SO assualter/sniper
http://soldiersystems.net/blog1/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/afg_9.jpg
Kyle Defoor Former Navy DevGru assualter/sniper
http://images52.fotki.com/v738/photos/9/98493/921251/Daniel2BDefense2B014-vi.jpg
Kyle Lamb Former CAG (Delta Force), assaulter
http://lh3.ggpht.com/_KBcOPHNEw1k/Sfd4JdRm95I/AAAAAAAAACs/2N2DabXdcJo/Viking_0016.jpg

LandsNGrooves
05-06-11, 12:27 PM
Larry Vickers Former CAG, was the unit's main weapons SGT(billet) for years. Is also a notable 1911 smith.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v74/va_dinger/LAVCARBINE6.jpg
Jason Falla Former Austrailian SAS assualter
http://www.thorglobaldefensegroup.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/Jason-Falla-Redback-One-Tactical.jpg
Jerry Miculek bizzilion times shooting champion in about everything, shoots for S&W
http://www.downrange.tv/blog/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/MGN_0120.jpg

ETC ETC ETC

devilbones2
05-06-11, 12:36 PM
Wow, you must have had this on your mind for a while. I cant sleep when things are on my mind. Nice pics though, thanks.

LandsNGrooves
05-06-11, 01:21 PM
yeah it just bothers me how traditional and closeminded Marines are. I hate it. It's ok, cause Recon guys are training like this out w SOTG, and Marsoc is gtg aswell, soo it will trickle down eventually. It's already started a little with shooters who shoot on their own time. Some people just already know what they know, and dont want to un-know it.

"235 years of tradition, unhampered by progress."

Tennessee Top
05-06-11, 01:36 PM
yeah it just bothers me how traditional and closeminded Marines are. I hate it. It's ok, cause Recon guys are training like this out w SOTG, and Marsoc is gtg aswell, soo it will trickle down eventually. It's already started a little with shooters who shoot on their own time. Some people just already know what they know, and dont want to un-know it.

"235 years of tradition, unhampered by progress."

Since it bothers you so much, why not just write a letter to our commandant and let him know how traditional and closeminded his Marines are? I'm pretty sure that will get his attention:banana:

LandsNGrooves
07-07-11, 07:35 PM
yeah right, he dosent even read his own emails. His screeners would prob get a kick out of it before forwarding it to the Div Smage.

LandsNGrooves
07-07-11, 07:38 PM
Times change, do you?
I had a spark after sifting through numerous old posts on a recent topic here. It really dawned on me how fast things can change, either to an individual or as collective/institutional knowledge.

I forgot that it was only a few years ago that I was using three-point slings, VFGs almost touching the mag-well, 12 HK magazines stuck to my armor, and a white-light mounted at 6 o'clock. All while knowing that I was on top of the whole business. I had gone to some dangerous places and prevailed in bad circumstances. I was a good shooter and trusted instructor. I had learned from some of the best around. But that doesn't change the fact that techniques, items, and skills evolved away from what I was doing/using then.

Not all things have drastically changed, some of it is pretty subtle, such as my grip on a pistol, or shoulder transitions and how I have my sling set-up. In fact, I would say that most skills have simply been tweaked and honed, not completely revised. Some of the big things are with gear. Things that we thought were great turned out to be mediocre (HK mags) and some things that were under-stated turned into the killer app (Aimpoint Micro).

Maybe I am just lucky in that I am exposed to a lot of different people, organizations, and nations. Maybe I am just lucky in that I have a job that lets me play with guns and shoot a lot to develop and hone technique and skill. While I think that those are aspects that have enabled the process I would have to say that the single thing that I has most promoted progress is willingness. I am willing to listen to what others have to say, see what they do, and try it.

One nice thing is that I have a steady supply of students to experiment with little tweaks and watch how they perform, with a database for comparison.

I have also gained a tremendous amount of information as far as civilian spec AR platfroms (and FALs ) go. I didn't know until about three years ago how very different they are from the guns in our armories. Hell, I can even remember a time I recommended that a buddy get a DPMS because, "ARs are ARs, and parts is parts!" Wow. How much we have learned, how far we have come.

So how are the rest of you doing? Where have you trained? What have you learned? What have you changed? How has your knowledge changed your gear or your interaction with it? What are your goals and how do you intend on reaching them and setting new goals? derp

Old Marine
07-07-11, 08:25 PM
These weapons came way after the muskets I used on active duty, but if ithe person behind the rifle is hitting what he is shooting at I can't see what difference it makes how he is standing or laying or where his hands are. Just my .02 cents.:evilgrin:

Perez671
07-07-11, 08:59 PM
sorry to bust in, but as a response to one of the previous posters about having the muzzle to the dirt or down range.

while in table 2 I asked the coach why we did this in the first place. He said we have it downrange so that should we be visible, or when the enemy is ducking in and out, if they see the muzzle to the deck, they see it as an opportunity. Either it being we dropped our guard or are reloading, so as to reloading with it being downrange, it's to give off the impression that we are still ready to fire once we see them, until we get to some form of cover.

As for the firing hand remaining on the pistol grip, it was if doing a reload with a round in the chamber, if the enemy was to decide to pop up in front of us, we can squeeze at least one off. This is all assuming cover is inadequate and we were on the move, pressing forward. At least from my understanding.

LandsNGrooves
07-08-11, 12:39 PM
These weapons came way after the muskets I used on active duty, but if ithe person behind the rifle is hitting what he is shooting at I can't see what difference it makes how he is standing or laying or where his hands are. Just my .02 cents.:evilgrin:

Your saying you don't see the point of a effective stance and weapons manipulation/handling, or that one technique could be more effective then an other? I don't believe that one bit.

FaDeD
07-10-11, 12:08 PM
Wher ei come from the supported stance you seem so thrilled about it standard practice however, when your cycling hundreds of pogs through a course and they are hitting the target and not flagging anyone you shpould be happy, i guess what im saying is dont fix whats not broken.

Are you right, yes, Are you wrong, yes.

LandsNGrooves
07-10-11, 08:12 PM
Wher ei come from the supported stance you seem so thrilled about it standard practice however, when your cycling hundreds of pogs through a course and they are hitting the target and not flagging anyone you shpould be happy, i guess what im saying is dont fix whats not broken.

Are you right, yes, Are you wrong, yes.


Im tracking and totally understand. However, in a organization with so much pride in gunfighting and markmanship, we should be training UP to a standard, not down to a check in the box, werely being happy no one greased he's fireteam buddy.

LandsNGrooves
08-18-11, 09:28 PM
http://www.kyledefoor.com/2009/09/carbine-support-grip.html

haebyungdae
08-19-11, 03:28 AM
There is a way to submit ideas that Marines/Commands have for changes that could be made to the Marine Corps and I believe it is accessible through the MCLL webpage.

Was going to say more, but I already wasted enough of my life on this thread. lol