Are the numbers correct for non-03xx Selection for Marsoc?

[rheinmark187]

Okay I'm asking this question because someone I know put his package in for Marsoc, got accepted for the initial selection and assesement phase and ended up NOT being selected. So he was an officer, NON-infantry except for his time as a reserve 0311 in college. In fact, his MOS was probably as far away from Infantry as you can get. He did a tour in support of counter-terrorism in Africa and another on a small FOB in support of OEF.

Good guy, in outstanding physical shape, well educated. He ends up breaking his foot but that didn't seem to make a difference in him not being selected. Okay, an officer who doesn't get selected just blew the last 12 months or so plotting his career path right? What about enlisted people? I read somewhere that selection for POG's (I'm lumping in Corpsmen and Radio Operators with the grunts) is under 10%.

That's not really good for a command that needs to meet a manning requirement and fight a global campaign. The U.S. Navy SEALS instituted mandatory pre-BUDS training and conditioning which led to a large jump in the size of their graduating classes.

Does Marsoc have this? If not, shouldn't this be put in place? Especially considering the low rates of selection for POG's?

[00101010]

I read somewhere that selection for POG's (I'm lumping in Corpsmen and Radio Operators with the grunts) is under 10%.

There's your problem. Could you reproduce this source?

[rheinmark187]

Unfortunately I cannot. I believe it was on strategypages.com but the thread has been removed from archives.

[rheinmark187]

http://www.enctoday.com/articles/screen-73900-jdn-camp-teams.html
This isn't the page, but it's relatively recent and it says there's a 56% attrition rate. That's much higher than the sub 10% I claimed in my OP. But that doesn't separate infantry Marines from non-infantry Marines. It does say that emphasis is put on selecting Infantry Marines though.

I'll check back in if if I can find that thread, but right now I need to get ready for work.

[00101010]

Yep, I have seen that same article, not a ton of information in there.

I will let you know in Sept, that is when I go to A&S. :thumbup:

[LandsNGrooves]

I heard straight from a MSOS Instructor that they mostly take 03's and comm guys. Keyword is MOSTLY.

[rheinmark187]

I heard straight from a MSOS Instructor that they mostly take 03's and comm guys. Keyword is MOSTLY.

And that makes a lot of sense obviously. But they are getting rid of a lot of non-infantrymen who could be good candidates I'll bet. If the number really is around 10% shouldn't they have a mandatory pre-selection conditioning and preparation course to bring that number up? The Navy SEALS are graduating nearly 40% and SF is graduating nearly 50% due to improvements made.

I'm just thinking back to when I was in MCT and the training was so half-assed that the instructors apologized to us. For some people, that would be the last dedicated rifelman training they would get before Iraq and Afghanistan and MEU workups, which really aren't that thorough. Granted MCT has been expanded and improved since I went through in early 2001, but is it enough? Judging from what I've read about selection, no.

I remember when I took my Recon indoc and the HQ company Gunny took us aside afterward and interviewed us. Basically I would have to work for them in my MOS and learn from osmosis until the end of my contract then go to RIP because the non-grunts would be so far behind the power curve in BRC we'd be nearly a guaranteed fail.

Now think of what it must be like for folks trying out for MARSOC CSO positions. It's already competitive right? Obviously the A&S is all classified or kept very close to the chest, but if they are looking for mostly infantry then part of the A&S has got to be based around their knowledge as a rifleman right?

[rheinmark187]

http://www.enctoday.com/articles/screen-73900-jdn-camp-teams.html
This isn't the page, but it's relatively recent and it says there's a 56% attrition rate. That's much higher than the sub 10% I claimed in my OP. But that doesn't separate infantry Marines from non-infantry Marines. It does say that emphasis is put on selecting Infantry Marines though.

I'll check back in if if I can find that thread, but right now I need to get ready for work.

This is very poorly worded. I claimed that attrition rate for POG's was around 90%, due to DoR, Medical and failure to be selected. I have not been able to produce the thread or MSOS data to back that up, yet.

This link says the overall attrition rate is 56% but does not break down attrition by infantry and non-infantry. I supplied it because it's really the best, most recent evidence I could find and it does make it seem possible that non-infantry attrition could be as high as 90%.

[LandsNGrooves]

I remember when I took my Recon indoc and the HQ company Gunny took us aside afterward and interviewed us. Basically I would have to work for them in my MOS and learn from osmosis until the end of my contract then go to RIP because the non-grunts would be so far behind the power curve in BRC we'd be nearly a guaranteed fail.

Now think of what it must be like for folks trying out for MARSOC CSO positions. It's already competitive right? Obviously the A&S is all classified or kept very close to the chest, but if they are looking for mostly infantry then part of the A&S has got to be based around their knowledge as a rifleman right?

Really the only people that know the exact roadmap to A&S are MSOS themselves. Some ruckruns are unknown time, unknown distance. .I was told most of their drops are from the shooting package on things like guys get fudged by their ambiselectors on the rifles. Most really like running the MEUSOC pistol(ie m1911a1).

[00101010]

If the number really is around 10% shouldn't they have a mandatory pre-selection conditioning and preparation course to bring that number up? The Navy SEALS are graduating nearly 40% and SF is graduating nearly 50% due to improvements made.

MARSOC is so young, they are still figuring out the BMOS/open/closed loop situation right now. They are able to be picky when it comes to selection; if there are enough guys making it on their own, then why provide specialized pre-training. As the community grows into something more like Army SF and Navy SEALS, they might then start looking into something like that. *disclaimer* I realized after reading this that I am speaking as some sort of SME, I am not! I am just giving my opinion and could VERY easily be wrong.


I'm just thinking back to when I was in MCT and the training was so half-assed that the instructors apologized to us. For some people, that would be the last dedicated rifelman training they would get before Iraq and Afghanistan and MEU workups, which really aren't that thorough. Granted MCT has been expanded and improved since I went through in early 2001, but is it enough? Judging from what I've read about selection, no.

I don't see what this really has to do with MARSOC. SOI is also not a good training ground for SOCOM. It is not the point of either of the two schools. The MARSOC recruiter I am working with gave me a lot of paperwork, including a "recommended" training schedule. There is your pre-training right there; "Here is what you should do to make it, now go and do it!" It is a 5 week program that you are to do on your own, he HIGHLY recommended I do it as I think the number he threw at me was that 98% of those that actually follow it make it (by make it I am guessing he meant complete the course, not actually get selected).


Now think of what it must be like for folks trying out for MARSOC CSO positions. It's already competitive right? Obviously the A&S is all classified or kept very close to the chest, but if they are looking for mostly infantry then part of the A&S has got to be based around their knowledge as a rifleman right?

I was told to study my land nav, a lot; that is about it as far as knowledge goes. Remember though, the point of A&S is not to be a SF guy, but to demonstrate the mental and physical capacity to handle the job.

[LandsNGrooves]

I'm just thinking back to when I was in MCT and the training was so half-assed that the instructors apologized to us. For some people, that would be the last dedicated rifelman training they would get before Iraq and Afghanistan and MEU workups, which really aren't that thorough. Granted MCT has been expanded and improved since I went through in early 2001, but is it enough? Judging from what I've read about selection, no.



NO! I went thru MCT a year ago, and for me MCT rifle wise was a refresher bc I shot AR's and took carbine classes before I ever enlisted, so I just had to get used to the ACOG. It's good training, just not enough. It's takes alot of reps fror someone to be able to manipulate a weapons under real stress.

FFW a year later and I just went thru my first grass week in the fleet this week. We dry ran some speed reloads and I stopped for one, and watch the whole line reload and 65% of the "shooters" had the rifle at there stomach during the act. CRINGE.:sick: I noticed my edges are getting dull, and I live in the barracks so my rifles stay at home. Sad to say, but outside of the 03 world, an alarming number of Marines feel range week is just one more thing in the way of endless emails, roster making and playing power point commando.

For anybody looking to go Recon or Marsoc to be a REAL warfighter, check this DVD out http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LJQTpTljLz8
Its an advanced carbine course that focuses on Hyper violent CQB shooting and pistol transitions similer to what Marsoc runs and Travis is former ForceR.

[rheinmark187]

MARSOC is so young, they are still figuring out the BMOS/open/closed loop situation right now. They are able to be picky when it comes to selection; if there are enough guys making it on their own, then why provide specialized pre-training. As the community grows into something more like Army SF and Navy SEALS, they might then start looking into something like that. *disclaimer* I realized after reading this that I am speaking as some sort of SME, I am not! I am just giving my opinion and could VERY easily be wrong.



I don't see what this really has to do with MARSOC. SOI is also not a good training ground for SOCOM. It is not the point of either of the two schools. The MARSOC recruiter I am working with gave me a lot of paperwork, including a "recommended" training schedule. There is your pre-training right there; "Here is what you should do to make it, now go and do it!" It is a 5 week program that you are to do on your own, he HIGHLY recommended I do it as I think the number he threw at me was that 98% of those that actually follow it make it (by make it I am guessing he meant complete the course, not actually get selected).


I was told to study my land nav, a lot; that is about it as far as knowledge goes. Remember though, the point of A&S is not to be a SF guy, but to demonstrate the mental and physical capacity to handle the job.

See that's the truth right there, it's a small organization right now and they can afford to be choosy. They want infantrymen, but if there's a POG out there who's adaptable enough, we want to give him a chance too.


I brought MCT up because I wanted to show how behind the power curve most of the non-infantry MOS's are leaving the gates. When it comes to trying out for something like Marsoc, it becomes even more difficult. I'm wondering what percentage of the non-selected candidates are allowed to apply again at a later date?

[00101010]

I'm wondering what percentage of the non-selected candidates are allowed to apply again at a later date?

I would think that mostly POGs would fall into that category; as in, "You were good, we could really use you in MARSOC, just not at this time." Is that what they told your friend?

What we need is someone that actually knows. Preferably a POG that is a CSO, but I assume they are all a little busy training to see this.

[rheinmark187]

I have no idea what category he was in, but he won't be able to try for a second time because of where he is at in his career.

[00101010]

There are other paths though, myself for example, I have orders to MSOSG as sort of a backup plan to becoming a CSO (I did this on a recommendation from a MARSOC recruiter "just in case"). I will check in a little more then a month before I go to A&S, and if I am not selected I could still end up at one of the BNs, just not as a CSO. (don't know what the hell I would be, as long as I would be in a fight somewhere)

[rheinmark187]

If I were to go Marsoc, I would be interested in the Special Operations Intelligence Battalion, that's right up my alley. That's a good plan to have though, once you're in the command and working for them, you may get a second shot or something else may open up that you are into.

[Kegler300]

Competition is keen. I've pre-screened dozens of Marines from our command, and none have been selected.

[rheinmark187]

There are other paths though, myself for example, I have orders to MSOSG as sort of a backup plan to becoming a CSO (I did this on a recommendation from a MARSOC recruiter "just in case"). I will check in a little more then a month before I go to A&S, and if I am not selected I could still end up at one of the BNs, just not as a CSO. (don't know what the hell I would be, as long as I would be in a fight somewhere)

Now I wonder if someone can get orders to MSOSG as a lat move. Say I'm a Comms guy, don't get selected but have orders to MSOSG. Now MSOSG is expecting to have you for their mission. You turn around a year or so later and ask for another shot as selection. What happens then?

[00101010]

Now I wonder if someone can get orders to MSOSG as a lat move. Say I'm a Comms guy, don't get selected but have orders to MSOSG. Now MSOSG is expecting to have you for their mission. You turn around a year or so later and ask for another shot as selection. What happens then?

I am not understanding what you are asking here.

Another note, I did write my sponsor and explain what I was trying to do because I was worried that, like you said, MSOSG would be expecting to have me in their unit, and not allow me to leave to become a CSO if I were selected. He said it was not like that, and that you are able to move around within MARSOC.

[rheinmark187]

I am not understanding what you are asking here.

Another note, I did write my sponsor and explain what I was trying to do because I was worried that, like you said, MSOSG would be expecting to have me in their unit, and not allow me to leave to become a CSO if I were selected. He said it was not like that, and that you are able to move around within MARSOC.

I didn't edit my post properly. I started with a scenario where someone is a grunt and decides to do a lat move to something like supply or comms, with the intention of working for MSOSG for a year then taking another crack at selection. I should have edited out the lat move part to simplify, seeing as that would introduce a 2nd hypothetical scenario.

But that does get me wondering, are EOD or 0211 allowed to try out for CSO? Is there a time period that the Marine Corps wants out of you before allowing you to change again? I would guess EOD and HumInt are only a rung or two lower on the priority ladder than a CSO.

[00101010]

I didn't edit my post properly. I started with a scenario where someone is a grunt and decides to do a lat move to something like supply or comms, with the intention of working for MSOSG for a year then taking another crack at selection. I should have edited out the lat move part to simplify, seeing as that would introduce a 2nd hypothetical scenario.

So the grunt already attended A&S and was not selected, but really wants to become a CSO, so he LAT moves so that he can get orders to MSOSG and try again later? If that is what you mean I don't really see the point in that. I also don't know the rules as far as if you HAVE to be invited back to A&S to do it again, or if you can just submit to go again later on your own.


But that does get me wondering, are EOD or 0211 allowed to try out for CSO? Is there a time period that the Marine Corps wants out of you before allowing you to change again? I would guess EOD and HumInt are only a rung or two lower on the priority ladder than a CSO.

I was told there are three MOS's that MARSOC was REALLY in need of, Intel, EOD and Comm. A CSO is a CSO. All CSO's go though the A&S and ITC at least, (it is past that that I am confused on, like if a POG gets to go to Jump and Scuba, I would guess it is based on the Team you are assigned to and what training they want you to have) I don't think there are some CSO's on lower rungs from others.

[00101010]

Your "rung" talk did remind me they do have different levels within MARSOC; CSO, DCS, CSS.

CSO; you know what that is.

DCS is a list of specific MOS's that work closely with the CSO's and deploy with them. (I currently fall under this category)

0211, 0212, 0231, 0241, 0261, 0291
0326, 0331, 0341, 0351, 0369
0451
0612, 0619, 0621, 0627, 0629, 0648, 0651, 0659, 0681, 0689, 0699
0861,
2336
2621, 2631, 2651, 2671, 2673, 2674, 2691
5811, 5812
CSS Marines may have the opportunity to deploy dependent upon mission requirements; however, they are not required to attend A&S.(from the MARSOC site)

[rheinmark187]

So the grunt already attended A&S and was not selected, but really wants to become a CSO, so he LAT moves so that he can get orders to MSOSG and try again later? If that is what you mean I don't really see the point in that. I also don't know the rules as far as if you HAVE to be invited back to A&S to do it again, or if you can just submit to go again later on your own.



I was told there are three MOS's that MARSOC was REALLY in need of, Intel, EOD and Comm. A CSO is a CSO. All CSO's go though the A&S and ITC at least, (it is past that that I am confused on, like if a POG gets to go to Jump and Scuba, I would guess it is based on the Team you are assigned to and what training they want you to have) I don't think there are some CSO's on lower rungs from others.

That tells me EOD, low-density language Cryptoanalysts and 0211 are probably people that won't be getting orders cut to A&S but are definitely welcome in MARSOC. I'll bet the Crypto guys can probably get orders on their Next Enlistment after the Marine Corps has gotten some time out of them lol. I'm sure that the MSOB will love having them and their language capabilities on the team.

I'm almost done with school and I'm looking at the Marine Corps again. If the path to 0211 was as cut and dry for the Marine Corps as it is for the Army, I would already be working on getting back in. 35M isn't exactly the same as 0211, but it's got most of what I want. Not too thrilled about having to wear a beret though. They look awesome on a Ranger or Special Forces, other than that I don't like em:D

[00101010]

That tells me EOD, low-density language Cryptoanalysts and 0211 are probably people that won't be getting orders cut to A&S but are definitely welcome in MARSOC. I'll bet the Crypto guys can probably get orders on their Next Enlistment after the Marine Corps has gotten some time out of them lol. I'm sure that the MSOB will love having them and their language capabilities on the team.

I'm almost done with school and I'm looking at the Marine Corps again. If the path to 0211 was as cut and dry for the Marine Corps as it is for the Army, I would already be working on getting back in. 35M isn't exactly the same as 0211, but it's got most of what I want. Not too thrilled about having to wear a beret though. They look awesome on a Ranger or Special Forces, other than that I don't like em:D
Have you spoken to a MARSOC recruiter about your situation? When I try and ask specifics I just got told all I need to be worried about right now is A&S, make it though that, and then you can ask questions about being a CSO.

[rheinmark187]

Have you spoken to a MARSOC recruiter about your situation? When I try and ask specifics I just got told all I need to be worried about right now is A&S, make it though that, and then you can ask questions about being a CSO.

Marsoc would be way down the road for me, getting 0211 is difficult as is. If I could get 0211 as a reservist, I would do that and go to work as a civilian here in D.C. If I didn't get that MOS, I wouldn't want to spend 1 second more in the military. For me, it's about the MOS, I wouldn't be happy doing something else.

The reason I brought up this thread was because a friend of mine tried out for Marsoc and wasn't selected. I don't know what the process is like for enlisted people, but I know this guy had to get a bunch of LoR and other things to get orders for A&S. I don't know any of the details other than he wasn't selected and isn't with MARSOC.

In your situation, have you visited Shadowspear.com? or Socnet.com? There are a handful of posters from Marsoc who comment regularly. They don't post too many specifics due to Opsec and Persec, but you can probably get more information from them in PM once they are certain who they are speaking with.

[00101010]

Marsoc would be way down the road for me, getting 0211 is difficult as is. If I could get 0211 as a reservist, I would do that and go to work as a civilian here in D.C. If I didn't get that MOS, I wouldn't want to spend 1 second more in the military. For me, it's about the MOS, I wouldn't be happy doing something else.

The reason I brought up this thread was because a friend of mine tried out for Marsoc and wasn't selected. I don't know what the process is like for enlisted people, but I know this guy had to get a bunch of LoR and other things to get orders for A&S. I don't know any of the details other than he wasn't selected and isn't with MARSOC.

In your situation, have you visited Shadowspear.com? or Socnet.com? There are a handful of posters from Marsoc who comment regularly. They don't post too many specifics due to Opsec and Persec, but you can probably get more information from them in PM once they are certain who they are speaking with.

No I have not been there, going there now though, thanks.

As far as the enlisted path goes, really all I did was call and then email a recruiter. I meet all the requirements and they were pretty eager to get me to A&S. I say that because I contacted them before deploying to Afghanistan about going and since getting here (still here now) they keep scheduling me for different A&S courses that I can't go to (been here since Oct and they first had me going to the one in Jan and then one in March). It has now been straitened out.

[rheinmark187]

No I have not been there, going there now though, thanks.

As far as the enlisted path goes, really all I did was call and then email a recruiter. I meet all the requirements and they were pretty eager to get me to A&S. I say that because I contacted them before deploying to Afghanistan about going and since getting here (still here now) they keep scheduling me for different A&S courses that I can't go to (been here since Oct and they first had me going to the one in Jan and then one in March). It has now been straitened out.

Who's they? MSOS, MARSOC admin or some other command in the Marine Corps?

I hope you find everything you can. And a word of caution on SOCNET, you'll talk to a lot of real deal people, but they ban folks at the drop of a hat. You want to talk to them like a 3rd phase recruit, for the first dozen posts or not. I would also check the stickies first. It would suck to get wtfbanned for an innocent question on a site that is full of useful information.

Shadowspear.com is more forgiving, but I'm not how many MARSOC people comment on it. I'll send you a PM with the screenname of at least 1 MARSOC guy who I see commenting regularly.

[00101010]

Who's they? MSOS, MARSOC admin or some other command in the Marine Corps?

I hope you find everything you can. And a word of caution on SOCNET, you'll talk to a lot of real deal people, but they ban folks at the drop of a hat. You want to talk to them like a 3rd phase recruit, for the first dozen posts or not. I would also check the stickies first. It would suck to get wtfbanned for an innocent question on a site that is full of useful information.

Shadowspear.com is more forgiving, but I'm not how many MARSOC people comment on it. I'll send you a PM with the screenname of at least 1 MARSOC guy who I see commenting regularly.

They as in the recruiters and screeners (RSAS I think).

I got that impression from SOCNET (already read the introduction thread etc...), that one seems to be used much more then Shadowspear. Thanks for the PM.

[Accord]

getting 0211 is difficult as is. If I could get 0211 as a reservist, I would do that and go to work as a civilian here in D.C. If I didn't get that MOS, I wouldn't want to spend 1 second more in the military. For me, it's about the MOS, I wouldn't be happy doing something else.

Then do it...

[Phantom Blooper]

Congratulations on your new rank SGT Accord!:beer:

:evilgrin:

[supermanlives22]

im a little late on this but im an 0231 and i just got orders to msosg w det it was simple i just asked and got it. i still had to do a physical and get a bunch of signatures from my command which was a time consuming pain but it all worked out in the end. it sounds like they were hurting for guys such as intel. i was told by the mgysgt that asked if i wanted to go msosg because i was up for orders and wanted to go to the ground side. he told me that in 2006 when they recruted all the guys thy needed they didnt plan for 5 years later when there contracts are up. so now they are hurting for guys because next year is the fith year. so i would ask and you could get orders to the msosg probly pretty easy idk truth be told i think i was in the right place at the right time. good luck guys :flag: