Chesty Puller !!

[zippoman]

I only live a couple of miles from the resting place of Chesty, and this was in the local paper this week......

Some marines want word “soldier” removed from Puller memorial stone

by Larry S. Chowning

The use of the word “Soldier” on an stone honoring Marine Corps LtGen Lewis Puller at the Lewis Puller Memorial Park in Saluda has several retired Marines calling for the engraving on the stone to be changed.

County administrator Charles Culley has received numerous e-mails from Marines all over the country complaining about the use of the term “soldier” in describing LtGen Puller on the stone. Several Letters to the Editor from retired Marines have also been received by the Southside Sentinel and a sampling of the letters are published on this page.

The Marines are adamant that the proper way to describe Puller is as a “Marine,” and he in no way was he a “soldier,” which is a term associated with those who serve in the U.S. Army.

Culley’s office has turned the complaints over to the Middlesex County Museum, the owner of the stone and park, which were dedicated in Puller’s honor last year.
Marine (Ret.) Bob Means of Urbanna explained that the word “soldier” comes from a French word describing men who march with a rifle on their shoulder.
He said a soldier is an enlisted member of the U.S. Army and that the Marines are a branch of the U.S. Navy.

Mavis Mangum, president of the Middlesex County Museum, said this week that before the stone was installed at the park she had members of the Third Marine Division in Northern Virginia approve the verbiage.

She said LtGen Puller’s daughters and their husbands, both Marines, also approved the stone. Mangum said she will ask these people what their feelings are about changing the word “soldier” on the stone.

Mangum said if she finds the Marines prefer for the stone to be changed, she and others on the county museum board will see that it is changed. “This is to honor a great man and we don’t want it to be anything else but that,” she said.

General Puller is the most decorated Marine of all time. He was born in West Point, Virginia, and when he retired from the Marine Corps he moved to Saluda with his family. He is buried in Christ Church cemetery in Middlesex County.

[MAJMike]

LCpl Zip:

Now I AM all for moving Chesty Puller's head stone to the rotunda of the Alabama Supreme Court Building.

Any problem with that?

MR Ventura
MAJ USMCR (Ret)
7211

[zippoman]

Originally posted by MAJMike
LCpl Zip:

Now I AM all for moving Chesty Puller's head stone to the rotunda of the Alabama Supreme Court Building.

Any problem with that?

MR Ventura
MAJ USMCR (Ret)
7211

Major, in all honesty I wouldn't have a problem with that other than the fact that I go up to his restin place twice a year to put flowers and a Marine Corps flag on his grave.....it gets me outta the house and makes me feel like a better person, and keeps me outta the ole lady's hair for a few hours.........now I know you wouldn't want to begrudge me of that !!

[USMC-FO]

I am guessing this is a relativly new stone to the Generals resting place ??

I agree that it should be changed to "Marine". Not as it is currently engraved. I go to some pains on a regular basis to note the difference to the uninformed here in New England.

Also I am not sure I would buy that all this was cleared with General Puller's children--just does not ring true to me. A little CYA perhaps.

Also why check with the members of the 3rd MarDiv Association?? Since Gen Puller was primarily associated with the 1st MarDiv and briefly with the 2nd MarDiv. Not a rap on the local 3rd Div Association but is there no 1st MarDiv Association locally?

Seems to me that the young lady who responded on this did not know much about either Marines or her immediate subject--General Puller

[zippoman]

Originally posted by USMC-FO
I am guessing this is a relativly new stone to the Generals resting place ??

I agree that it should be changed to "Marine". Not as it is currently engraved. I go to some pains on a regular basis to note the difference to the uninformed here in New England.

Also I am not sure I would buy that all this was cleared with General Puller's children--just does not ring true to me. A little CYA perhaps.

Also why check with the members of the 3rd MarDiv Association?? Since Gen Puller was primarily associated with the 1st MarDiv and briefly with the 2nd MarDiv. Not a rap on the local 3rd Div Association but is there no 1st MarDiv Association locally?

Seems to me that the young lady who responded on this did not know much about either Marines or her immediate subject--General Puller

This is a stone that is in a "Memorial Park" in Saluday Virginia. It is not near the Churchyard that Chesty's buried in......a completely separate Stone.....

[GyGUSMCRet]

LtGen Puller is very clearly identified as a Marine on the plaque in question located in Puller Park. In addition to this identification of the Marines' Marine, there are also words to indicate that he was a Patriot, Soldier, etc. Nothing wrong w/that in the way it is used.

Marines seem to have a problem understanding the use of the word Soldier in its larger/higher sense, or perhaps they just stubbornly refuse to understand it. Marines are soldiers; they do not marine, they soldier.

I expect, however, that the complainers will well prevail in this issue--the squeaky wheel gets the grease!

Ref
http://www.angelfire.com/ca/dickg/soldier.html
http://www.angelfire.com/ca/dickg/soldier.html

ARE MARINES SOLDIERS?
Gunny G's!
DON'T YOU DARE CALL ME A SOLDIER!!!

Marines' sites and bulletin boards on the Internet are nothing short of amazing regarding what many do not know about Marine Corps history and traditions. There are numerous cases where Marines--some of them even senior enlisted Marines and officers--post and respond to downright erroneous information demonstrating a definite lack of knowledge on various topics of Marine Corps interest. I have addressed several of these individual topics elsewhere on Gunny G's.

Perhaps, some independent study would be in order--better start at the top.

One random example, among many I have noticed, are several items lately where Marines are lambasting someone or other on the subject of one's having dared to refer to a Marine, or Marines, using the term "soldier."

With righteous indignation they scream that they are Marines, not soldiers, and they decry those who call them such! And rightfully so, in some cases, where the media or an individual, whatever, is using that term within an inappropriate context.

Of course, they (both the writer and the Marine) are acting out of their own lack of knowlege. The user of the term "soldier" is not aware that he should generally refer to all Marines as "Marines"; and the Marine is very likely ignorant of the fact that the word "soldier" is also correct, in some cases.

Members of our sister-service, for example, the U.S. Army, are soldiers, that is their name, but Marines are not soldiers in that sense at all. I am referring to Marines as soldiers in a much broader, higher sense, as a class of soldier that goes to the root of what a Marine is and does.

Reminds me of an oft-times repeated story of a U.S. Army major visiting the wounded in a WWI French hospital in 1918. As the story goes, the major asked a young soldier if he was indeed an American. "No sir," he replied, "I'm a Marine." (Ref US Marine Corps In World war I 1917-1918, Osprey, by Henry/Pavlovic, 1999) Such it is that Marines have always exemplified the inherent pride in their identity as a member of the MarineCorps.

But, many Marines seem to be unaware of the fact that the Marine Corps itself, as well as individual Marines, has long referred with pride to themselves as soldiers. To be sure, we are, each of us, a United States Marine, that is our TITLE, earned and claimed by us all as the capstone of that which we are. But somewhere within that coveted title lies the soldier referred to in the following examples.

One dictionary defines the word Marine as, an infantry soldier associated with a navy. No doubt there are many references to the Royal Marines as soldiers back through history. But we need not go back that far. Our own U.S. Marine Corps has a long listing of examples supporting the notion of Marines as soldiers.

A U.S. Marine Corps Recruiting Service poster, dated May 1866, announces that it is seeking MEN for its ranks; it then goes on to refer to such recruits as SOLDIERS no less than six times, and not once using the word Marine or Marines! (Ref the book, The Marines, by Simmons/Moskin, Marine Corps Heritage Foundation, 1998)

And there is the USMC Recruiting Poster of more recent vintage, shown at the top of this page. And, in the book, Marine Corps Book of Lists, by Nofi, Combined Publishing, 1997, the following.

"The Marines are both soldiers and sailors, a part of the sea services." (Page 154)

"Some Marine Wisdom on Soldiering" 'To be a sergeant, you have to show your stuff. I'd rather be an outstanding sergeant than just another officer," -GySgt Dan Daly (Page 159)

"Soldiers trained in the ways of the sea," -CMC, BGen Benjamin H. Fuller, c. 1934 (Page 181)

"A Dozen Nicknames For Marines" 2. "The Soldiers of the Sea, a traditional term for Marines dating back at least to the seventeenth century." (Page 180)

"The finest soldier any captain could wish to have," said of Dan Daly by BGen W.P. Upshur (Page 182)

The book, "Soldiers of the Sea: The U.S. Marine Corps," by Col Robert D. Heinl USMC (Ret.), Annapolis, 1962

The play, (and later, two films) "What Price Glory," by Andersen/Shillings, 1926, has numerous references to Marines as soldiers.

"He turned down the gold bars of a second lieutenant. 'I'm a plain soldier,' he said, 'and I want to stay one.'"
-GySgt John Basilone (Ref John Basilone --Italian-American Hero www.cimorelli.com/pie/heroes/basilone.htm)

Chapter XX, page 69,The United States Marine Corps in the World War, by Major Edwin N. McClellan, USMC,1920, Historical Branch, HQMC, Wash, DC
"In recent years the Marine Corps has devoted a great deal of time and energy to rifle practice, believing that one of the first requirements of a soldier is to know how to shoot...."

And, finally, the more recent (2001) book,"Chesty The Story of Lieutenant General Lewis B. Puller, USMC," by Jon T. Hoffman, LtCol USMCR, in which he named Chapter 1, "Making a Man and a Soldier" Genesis of a Marine.

And many more references can be found, but suffice to say, for the purpose of my little spiel here, that these few examples should establish that the use of "soldier" was long commonly in use in the Corps.

And so is the use of the term "soldier" valid? Yes, I think all of the above has shown that it is, but please consider this information within the context which I have presented it. At the same time, however, I agree that the use of that term has generally fallen out of use, but not altogether. It may be that its decline began at the end of WW II when the Marine Corps was fighting for it's continued existence when Congress, and the US Army, was seeking to severly cut back the size of the Corps and/or eliminate it altogether.

Marines are also very critical of Marines, and others, who use terms that were in use before their own time, or perhaps terms they never really understood in the first place, like ex-Marine, preferring "former Marine" in its place. In some cases, they even now consider certain terms to have been derogatory in nature, although not the case to begin with. These things come and go; Semper Fidelis was shortened to "Semper Fi" by WW II Marines--and it's meaning even replaced at that time. Many of today's Marines resent some of these terms mainly because they have little knowledge of the finer points of our own history, heritage and traditions, falling back onto whatever they now perceive to have been the truth of their Old Corps. Their present explanations, opinions and beliefs regarding many of these things are invalid. For those with the mind for it, there is much in the way of information on these topics on the Internet, books, etc. It's out there if anybody wishes to take the trouble to research and find it!

The U. S. Marine Corps has a long and glorious history. There is no need to be "touchy" as to being referred to as a soldier, even when the person speaking is not totally aware of all involved in the fact he is alluding to.

Rather, be yourself informed of what is so and what isn't, through your own research and studies. Nor is it of any benefit to deride those of other services, as is a common practice-- doing so merely reveals your own ignorance, and it belittles our Corps.

As one old recruiting poster states, "Be a Marine!"

Res Ipsa Loquitur: ''The Thing Speaks For Itself''

[yellowwing]

I wonder if the Soviet Naval Infantry had these problems? If it is his personal grave marker than I think it is up to the family. It is primarily for them.

If it is a national memorial, then fix it proper ASAP! I think Chesty is up there chuckling at the FUBAR SNAFU.

Being a computer geek for the Corps, I worked with quit a few civilians. One woman made the mistake of calling me a 'good soldier'. Out of reflex I shot her a look that had her burst into tears. (I didn't know I had it in me).

Kinda' reminds me of the latest Planet of the Apes movie. Mark Wahlberg calls an retired general ape a monkey. The general immediately pins his ass to the ground and corrects him. I wish I could have done that to that civilian contractor!

[USMC-FO]

Well written and well thought out Gunny. HOWEVER I am pretty well versed in our history and lore and I for one do not like the term "soldier" when speaking of Marines, current and past. I read Hoffman's book and winced every time he used the term.

Perhaps it all comes down to how one takes a noun and bends it to a verb: If it can be said that we "can soldier on" then I would argue that one can also "Marine on". Awkard will always be awkard.

Yesterday while sitting on my duff at a local golf course that my son and I had just managed to humiliate ourselves on, a man--mid 30's perhaps--seeing my USMC tee shirt looked at me and said "Semper Fi". As I always do, I simply responded; "you a Marine" He said "used to be" I said "Semper fi Marine, and by the way you still are a Marine" He smiled and acknowledged my point.

For myself I will always be a Marine, and I relish the distinction as I am sure you do too. If that is a squeeky wheel then so be it.

S/F

[GyGUSMCRet]

Your opinion is as good as the opinion of anyone else, including me. What I have written above I believe to be about 95% fact, and then seasoned w/5% my opinion...

Semper Fidelis, Marine!
Dick

[GySgtRet]

Well,
Here are my two cents about the GREATEST MARINE in OUR CORPS HISTORY. May Chesty Rest In Peace where ever he may be. He was probably many things in his life, first he was a man then he became a MARINE and gracefully died a MARINE as I will and anybody else that served as a MARINE. WE all probably know many of our brothers ( and sisters) that have died some in battle some not. GyGUSMCRet you bring out many excellent points however, Zippoman says it the best I think. I can still remeber our prayers at Parris Island. He went something like, well you guys know how it went. I can't remeber the whole thing now. It ended with "good nite Chesty wherever you are?" Or words to that effect. As proud as I am to be a Marine, and stick with traditions, lets honor Chesty and leave well enough alone.

OOORAH!!! SEMPER FIDELIS

[GyGUSMCRet]

OohRah???
WTF is that ****!

[GySgtRet]

You never heard of that???? If I were in Georgia I would go to your bar and we could put down some cold ones...!!!

Semper Fidelis

[GyGUSMCRet]

OohRah is just some ignorant bs carried forward from one monkey-see/monkey-do to the others!

At one time back in the old Corps it did have some truth to it, but not as it is now, and only for one select group within the Corps.
Dick

[GyGUSMCRet]

OohRah!
http://www20.brinkster.com/gunnyg/oohrah.html
http://www20.brinkster.com/gunnyg/oohrah.html

[GySgtRet]

GyGUSMCRet,

I had heard the same info on the OORAH. Thanks for the history lesson. And I still wouldn't mind having that cold one.

Semper Fidelis

[GyGUSMCRet]

Southside Sentinel 28 Aug 03
http://www.ssentinel.com/Pages/topstry.html#story2
http://www.ssentinel.com/Pages/topstry.html#story2