Smacked children more successful later in life, study finds

[jetdawgg]

Children who are smacked by their parents may grow up to be happier and more successful than those spared physical discipline, research suggests.

A study found that youngsters smacked up to the age of six did better at school and were more optimistic about their lives than those never hit by their parents.

They were also more likely to undertake voluntary work and keener to attend university, experts discovered.

in the United States, is likely to anger children’s rights campaigners who have unsuccessfully fought to ban smacking in Britain.

Currently, parents are allowed by law to mete out "reasonable chastisement'' on their children, providing smacking does not leave a mark or bruise. These limits were clarified in the 2004 Children’s Act.

But children’s groups and MPs have argued that spanking is an outdated form of punishment that can cause long-term mental health problems.

Marjorie Gunnoe, professor of psychology at Calvin College in Grand Rapids, Michigan, said her study showed there was insufficient evidence to deny parents the freedom to determine how their children should be punished.

She said: “The claims made for not spanking children fail to hold up. They are not consistent with the data.

“I think of spanking as a dangerous tool, but there are times when there is a job big enough for a dangerous tool. You just don’t use it for all your jobs.”
The research questioned 179 teenagers about how often they were smacked as children and how old they were when they were last spanked.

Their answers were then compared with information they gave about their behaviour that could have been affected by smacking. This included negative effects such as anti-social behaviour, early sexual activity, violence and depression, as well as positives such as academic success and ambitions.

Those who had been smacked up to the age of six performed better in almost all the positive categories and no worse in the negatives than those never punished physically.

Teenagers who had been hit by their parents from age seven to 11 were also found to be more successful at school than those not smacked but fared less well on some negative measures, such as getting involved in more fights.
However, youngsters who claimed they were still being smacked scored worse than every other group across all the categories.

Prof Gunnoe found little difference in the results between sexes and different racial groups.

The findings were rejected by the National Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Children, which has fought to ban smacking.

A spokesman for the charity said: "The NSPCC believes that children should have the same legal protection from assault as adults do.

“Other research has shown that smacking young children affects their behaviour and mental development, and makes them more likely to be anti-social.”

However, Parents Outloud, the pressure group, welcomed the research, saying parents should not be criminalised for mild smacking.

Its spokeswoman, Margaret Morrissey, said: “It is very difficult to explain verbally to a young child why something they have done is wrong.
“A light tap is often the most effective way of teaching them not to do something that is dangerous or hurtful to other people – it is a preventive measure.

“While anything more than a light tap is definitely wrong, parents should be allowed the freedom to discipline their children without the fear that they will be reported to police.”

Aric Sigman, a psychologist and author of The Spoilt Generation: Why Restoring Authority will Make our Children and Society Happier, told the Sunday Times: “The idea that smacking and violence are on a continuum is a bizarre and fetishised view of what punishment or smacking is for most parents.

“If it’s done judiciously by a parent who is normally affectionate and sensitive to their child, our society should not be up in arms about that. Parents should be trusted to distinguish this from a punch in the face.”
Previous studies have suggested that smacking children can lead them to develop behavioural problems such as being more aggressive.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healthnews/6926823/Smacked-children-more-successful-later-in-life-study-finds.html

[sscjoe]

Just my situation, I agree. I grew up in the Military where there was tough love. I have a brother that's a West Point grad, another that has worked for the FDIC for 20 yrs and now assinged in D.C., another Brother that's a 20yr IBM'er and a Sister that has over 20yrs with the V.A. So no spanking never hurt us. This is the prob today parents can't paddle .
Mike, just for you. Taze the parents of today to get their head right,

BTW--- never heard how your son finished up his Baseball career?

[jetdawgg]

@sscjoe

They lost the championship game. He does not want to play baseball anymore. He is playing football. Kids.......

He was a 5 out of 6 tool player in baseball. I just spend the money on what he asks me too :D

In his final season, I bought him a $150.00 glove for that one season. I remember my $15.00 glove lasted for 3/4 seasons:D

SF

[kenrobg30]

My stepdad, had a leather belt, that he used on me, If he even suspected that I was thinking about doing something wrong. From asge 10, to age 16, I got whupped, when ever he decided he neede some exersise. Many times, I deserved it, and many times, I didn't. On my sixteenth birthday, he and I had a disagreement, and He got out the belt. When he got tired, and quit, I told him, that would be the last whipping he was ever going to give me. I told him that, the next time he wanted to punish me, he'd better use his fists, because i intendede to use mine.He never laid a hand on me again. That night ,he and my mom went out. I went and got his leather belt. I took a large pair of scissors, and cut the belt up, into little half inch pieces. I piled the result, in the middle of the kitchen table, laid the buckle on top of the pile, and went to bed. In the morning, I came out to eat breakfast, and the pile was gone. I never heard a word about that belt. I didn't get hit anymore either. S/F! Ken

[ameriken]

My stepdad, had a leather belt, that he used on me, If he even suspected that I was thinking about doing something wrong. From asge 10, to age 16, I got whupped, when ever he decided he neede some exersise. Many times, I deserved it, and many times, I didn't. On my sixteenth birthday, he and I had a disagreement, and He got out the belt. When he got tired, and quit, I told him, that would be the last whipping he was ever going to give me. I told him that, the next time he wanted to punish me, he'd better use his fists, because i intendede to use mine.He never laid a hand on me again. That night ,he and my mom went out. I went and got his leather belt. I took a large pair of scissors, and cut the belt up, into little half inch pieces. I piled the result, in the middle of the kitchen table, laid the buckle on top of the pile, and went to bed. In the morning, I came out to eat breakfast, and the pile was gone. I never heard a word about that belt. I didn't get hit anymore either. S/F! Ken
LOL, thats a great story Ken.

Semper Fi

[kenrobg30]

I don't want you to get the wrong idea about me, I'm fully in favor of Jetdawgs thesis. I raised my kids with a leather belt. I never hit them very hard, I just doubled the belt over, into a loop, held on to the buckle and the end of the strap. try it. It make a hell of a noise, but doesn't hurt anywhere near as much as the lil whipper-snappers think it does, and if your carefull how hard you swing there is never a mark. When my Oldest, who happened to be a boy, turned fifteen, I quit spanking all of them. I wasn't being kind, He was bigger than me! I don't know what ever dide happen to that belt. I'm gonna have to ask Bob.(My sons name) In my opinion, which is probably wrong. I think we could a few less weeping willies, and ambulance chasing lawyer, sticking their noses into our personal business, but that's just me. What do I know?:evilgrin:S/F!! Ken

[echo3oscar1833]

My dad used to give me a whooping, all the time. Did I deserve it hell ya I did. Especially when I was a teenager, I was a smart mouthed little ****. I'll agree with this much it made me a better man when I got older. You bet when I have kids, I'll be giving them a whooping just like my old man did to me. Semper!! :D

[commdog7]

I don't believe that study. There are 50 other studies out there reporting the opposite. 90% of the people I grew up with who were hit as a kid did not amount to much later in life, whereas 90% of the people who were not hit developed a decent life.

I was spanked plenty of times growing up, but I don't believe it in and I will never have it done to my kids. I believe there are much better ways to teach kids rather than resorting to violence. The best parents out there can instill discipline without relying on fear and pain.

[giveen]

Spare the rod, spoil the child.

[Old Marine]

My kids should be a lot smarter than they are.

[kenrobg30]

Spare the rod, spoil the child.

:evilgrin: That quote is Oh, So, true. But it's older than I am. It's got moss growing on all four sides. Give us something modern!:D S/F!! Ken

[giveen]

Don't discipline your child....in whatever manner you decide as a parent....and you will have a spoil brat on your hands who will blame mommy for everything and get nowhere in life

[usmchauer]

I believe there are much better ways to teach kids rather than resorting to violence.

Swatting a kid in the butt is not exactly violence. It's a consequence for doing the wrong thing. Negative behavior = negative consequence just as a positive behavior results in a positive consequence. I will submit that corporal punishment if used too liberally loses its effectiveness. I try to save spankings for serious transgressions. Grace goes a long way as well.

[Kegler300]

Spare the rod, spoil the child.

[kenrobg30]

Swatting a kid in the butt is not exactly violence. It's a consequence for doing the wrong thing. Negative behavior = negative consequence just as a positive behavior results in a positive consequence. I will submit that corporal punishment if used too liberally loses its effectiveness. I try to save spankings for serious transgressions. Grace goes a long way as well.
Brother hauer, I hate to say it, but Your answer scares the hell out of me. We are talking about spanking children, not Torturing rats, in a lab. Your cold blooded analysis, gives me chills. When I spanked my kids, I hated myself for days afterward. If i offend you, or anyone with what I've written, I can't help that. I lovged my kids then and I love them now. If you have Kids, take a lok at them. are they human? S/F! Ken

[Zulu 36]

My stepdad, had a leather belt, that he used on me, If he even suspected that I was thinking about doing something wrong. From asge 10, to age 16, I got whupped, when ever he decided he neede some exersise. Many times, I deserved it, and many times, I didn't. On my sixteenth birthday, he and I had a disagreement, and He got out the belt. When he got tired, and quit, I told him, that would be the last whipping he was ever going to give me. I told him that, the next time he wanted to punish me, he'd better use his fists, because i intendede to use mine.He never laid a hand on me again. That night ,he and my mom went out. I went and got his leather belt. I took a large pair of scissors, and cut the belt up, into little half inch pieces. I piled the result, in the middle of the kitchen table, laid the buckle on top of the pile, and went to bed. In the morning, I came out to eat breakfast, and the pile was gone. I never heard a word about that belt. I didn't get hit anymore either. S/F! Ken

When I was a kid, my father had no problems putting the leather to us (mostly the boys, hands on the girls). In fact, he used his old Marine Corps fair leather belt they used to issue for wear with Service Alphas back in WWII. That belt HURT!

My parents had seven kids. All of us got a licking more than once growing up from both parents. None of us are on welfare and none of us have been in prison. All three boys have had successful careers and so have the girls, in between in-wedlock babies.

To this day the worst beating I've ever gotten, from anyone, was from my father when the Detroit cops brought me home. I had bruises for weeks on my legs, butt, and back, and could hardly walk for days afterward. But I learned my lesson. I was 11-years old.

Just this past weekend my 11-year old son got the belt from me because he slapped his sister on her breasts when she ****ed him off. He didn't get nearly the flogging I did (only four shots), but the message seemed to go home as he was Mr. Perfect for the rest of the weekend.

Top Kegler has in 100% right in my opinion.

[giveen]

They are human, yes. But they are not adults.
Telling a child "no" does not always work. Sometimes a spanking goes a longer ways than just sounding like a parrot with no consequences behind your warnings.

[jetdawgg]

Spare the rod, leave it to MTV and the radio stations to give them values. See how successful they become:usmc:

Let the rappers and the rockers raise them

[giveen]

Spare the rod, leave it to MTV and the radio stations to give them values. See how successful they become:usmc:

Let the rappers and the rockers raise them
OMG did hell just freeze over?
Did jetdawgg make a post that sides with more "conservative" values?

[commdog7]

Telling a child "no" does not always work. Sometimes a spanking goes a longer ways than just sounding like a parrot with no consequences behind your warnings.

I agree that there should be consequences to negative actions, but those consequences should not include physical punishment in my opinion. For example, denying certain priviledges can be just as effective. Grounding them, taking away tv, taking away an allowance, sending them to bed without dinner, etc. Or for more serious offenses, you can scare the sh!t out of them by taking them to a jail and having them spend the night.

Spanking is not a very effective tool. Studies show it teaches kids to avoid being caught more than teaching them be good. Instead striking them, you should make them understand why certain behaviors are bad and develop a sense of morals in them in order to correct certain behaviors in the future. Sometimes spanking can backfire. It can cause anti-social or aggresive behavior which could lead to some psychological problems down the road.

[charm1110]

I do agree that a spanking is an effective tool in disciplining children however there are many other tools to use as well it's got to be a combination of properly placed discipline and love and nurturing that gets the best results in my opinion. The worse beatings I had as a child had less effect on me than the neglect and emotional warfare I faced. If you love your children you will neither spare the rod nor the heart they need both.

[giveen]

I agree that there should be consequences to negative actions, but those consequences should not include physical punishment in my opinion. For example, denying certain priviledges can be just as effective. Grounding them, taking away tv, taking away an allowance, sending them to bed without dinner, etc. Or for more serious offenses, you can scare the sh!t out of them by taking them to a jail and having them spend the night.

And you would do those things on a 1-2 year old?

[MD8724]

I would rather be spanked than starved...

My mom always used a belt. My grandparents used a switch. They would make us go out to the yard to get it too. My dad would just backhand me. I don't have a problem with any of it. (I won't backhand my kids..... God forbid I have a girl, it would probably be left up to her mom to punish her then....)

I don't think any one punishment is better than the other, as long as there is some type of punishment. It's what you teach/show/act like in front of your kids the 95% of the time you arent hitting/grounding them that makes them succesful in life, in my opinion.

[sscjoe]

@sscjoe

They lost the championship game. He does not want to play baseball anymore. He is playing football. Kids.......

He was a 5 out of 6 tool player in baseball. I just spend the money on what he asks me too :D

In his final season, I bought him a $150.00 glove for that one season. I remember my $15.00 glove lasted for 3/4 seasons:D

SF

Thanks for the update Michael, I'm sure he'll do just as well in football and #1 fan in the stands.

[jetdawgg]

@sscjoe

Thanks. Io really don't complain too much. His grades are good:D

SF

[commdog7]

And you would do those things on a 1-2 year old?


You would hit a 1 or 2 year old!?

1-2 year olds don't understand the difference between right and wrong, therefore spanking them would be counterproductive. A heart-to-heart would be more appropriate. When they get a little older, old enough to understand the difference between right and wrong, then you can use punishments such as the ones I listed.

[Sally]

I'd experienced 13 years of abuse and I think I turned out great.

[sparkie]

I spanked 3 great kids. The opposite of love is apathy.

"If you have Kids, take a lok at them. are they human? S/F! Ken"
Roger that!<!-- / message -->

[usmchauer]

Ken - I'm a little miffed at how you could read what I posted, and one thing you take away from that is my method of parenting equates to some mad science experiment. No biggie, everyone percieves things differently and I'll explain further in the hope you'll understand what I'm trying to say. Just as in any adults life, every choice you make results in a consequence, good or bad. Example - If you work hard, land a good job and are a productive citizen then you can enjoy the benefits that comes with that lifestyle. If you're a dirtbag, and don't work then you get to live in the gutter, or be a freeloader. The same thing applies to a small child.

I love my kids. Never have I once felt guilty for my choice of discipline. I don't buy the saying "This is gonna hurt me than it's going to hurt you" :thumbdown

CD7 With your prescribed method of discipline, can you tell me how you would "explain" to a 1 or 2 year old that running out into a busy street isn't safe, and that he should really be more careful next time? Is that a situation that you have the luxury of using a time-out, or a stern chiding to attempt to correct that behavior?

[sparkie]

You would hit a 1 or 2 year old!?

1-2 year olds don't understand the difference between right and wrong, therefore spanking them would be counterproductive. A heart-to-heart would be more appropriate. When they get a little older, old enough to understand the difference between right and wrong, then you can use punishments such as the ones I listed.


HAHAHAHA,,,,sorry.

[Phantom Blooper]

Put a shock collar on them....and a invisible fence in the yard.

I'm not an advocate of child beating and abuse....to the point of bone breakage and uncontrollable beatings into brain dead or a coma... but when they are young they may step on your toes.... to prevent them stepping on your heart when they are older.....smack their little butt.

Talking is good for the first offense....2nd time smack their little butt.

Timeouts are like the rumor of stress cards.....not worth it in my opine.

Grounded....that's a joke... smack their little butt...then they will come home wagging their tails behind them and behave at least for a little while.:evilgrin:

[sparkie]

My oldest daughter was one of those 'extras'. So one day I told her to go get a switch. Left a welt on her back leg. Over 20 years of regret, but mine, not hers.
life is funny, at best, but I will say again,,,, The opposite of love is apathy.

[kgarton]

This is a tough question. I was hit with a belt by my father, but he never did it very hard. The fear was worse than the pain, and so I think it worked pretty well. Though, in the end, I think I won't hit my children at all. I don't think it's necessary. Tough question, though. Really tough.

[brian0351]

I agree that there should be consequences to negative actions, but those consequences should not include physical punishment in my opinion. For example, denying certain priviledges can be just as effective. Grounding them, taking away tv, taking away an allowance, sending them to bed without dinner, etc. Or for more serious offenses, you can scare the sh!t out of them by taking them to a jail and having them spend the night.

Spanking is not a very effective tool. Studies show it teaches kids to avoid being caught more than teaching them be good. Instead striking them, you should make them understand why certain behaviors are bad and develop a sense of morals in them in order to correct certain behaviors in the future. Sometimes spanking can backfire. It can cause anti-social or aggresive behavior which could lead to some psychological problems down the road.

Yes but putting thought into "Not Getting Caught"...is that moment of pause that makes you think, "Is the beating I'll get if I get caught...worth it?"

Worked for me. I would get the "parental facepalm" if I did something wrong and I avoided doing said activity for the fear of getting hit again.

If I knew I was going to do something wrong...and had to deal with consequences...I would put more thought into whether or not it was worth it (i.e. sneaking out of my house to see my girlfriend...afterwards she kissed the boo-boo and made it better :) )

[kenrobg30]

Put a shock collar on them....and a invisible fence in the yard.

I'm not an advocate of child beating and abuse....to the point of bone breakage and uncontrollable beatings into brain dead or a coma... but when they are young they may step on your toes.... to prevent them stepping on your heart when they are older.....smack their little butt.

Talking is good for the first offense....2nd time smack their little butt.

Timeouts are like the rumor of stress cards.....not worth it in my opine.

Grounded....that's a joke... smack their little butt...then they will come home wagging their tails behind them and behave at least for a little while.:evilgrin:

I never hit my kids with my hand, PB. Reason: I srarted to the fist time, and I happened to look at the size of that hand, as compared to the size of that butt. It made me think about the damage that hand could do, if I miscalculated the amount of force in the swat. I wanted to get his attention, not cripple him, thus the doubled belt.:thumbup: S/F!! Ken

[GSEMarine94]

My wife is a 1st grade teacher and I know for a fact that they teach the benefits of corporal punishment at a young age. Kids under the age of 5 don't comprehend reasoning,but they can put two and two together. For example, "Touch the electrical outlet and mommy pops me, don't touch the outlet."
I have a 2 1/2 year old boy and a 4 month old girl, and I have popped my little boys butt, when needed.

[hrscowboy]

I have had to bust my boys several times as they was growing up with a belt I always told them it was gonna hurt me worse than hurt them and it did but my boys turned out real good so i cant complain.

[AKA HITMAN]

Discipline in our house as kids was a nightmare. Dad was a Navy lifer and made me stand tall every 0 dark thirty and recieve the famous phrase "your ass is mine when I get home". No matter how big or little the infraction, pops used a backhand or a fist to get the message across. Mom would grab my brothers and head for the hills. I did deserve some punishment, but beatings were not the answer. My problem was that I'd stand up to him and in turn get a righteous ass kicking.
When I enlisted, pops put me down with a 2x4 and sent me to the hospital. After boot, he got me on the front porch and gave me the business about not joining the Navy and went to full throttle on me...fortunately I learned a little something in boot and promptly cleaned his clock and sent him to the emergency room. Since then no problemo.
I'm raising my grandson with the wife and he's a typical 2 1/2 yr. old. He needs a pop on the butt now and again, and it does hurt me to see him cry, but you have to start putting down the law and hope he turns out without all the anger and rage I was raised with.

[commdog7]

I've studied psychology in college, particularly with children, and everything I've learned has been anti-corporal punishment. All the experts I've heard from say spanking/whipping/hitting children does more bad than good. There are so many other ways to punish a child rather than to use physical force. Children should be able to trust their parents, not fear them.

In the military, why do we have such high discipline? Boot camp has outlawed physical abuse and hazing in the fleet can destroy someone's career. So without these methods, how is it that our level of discipline is so high? Because discipline can be achieved through other, more advanced, methods. Yelling, exercise, and fear of damaging one's career is enough to turn criminals and druggies into highly disciplined United States Marines. The Corps has found ways to rid itself of corporal punishment while being as strong of an organization as ever. Why? Because corporal punishment causes more problems than it solves, and there are more effective ways to punish offenders.

Slowly, the Marine Corps is cracking down on corporal punishment within individual families. If a child is even suspected of being beaten by their father/mother, that Marine's career is ruined. What classifies as being beaten is continuously expanding, even in the Corps.

[giveen]

There is a difference between recruits, and a 2 year old boy reaching yet again for the hot stove burner.

[GSEMarine94]

I've studied psychology in college, particularly with children, and everything I've learned has been anti-corporal punishment. All the experts I've heard from say spanking/whipping/hitting children does more bad than good. There are so many other ways to punish a child rather than to use physical force. Children should be able to trust their parents, not fear them.

In the military, why do we have such high discipline? Boot camp has outlawed physical abuse and hazing in the fleet can destroy someone's career. So without these methods, how is it that our level of discipline is so high? Because discipline can be achieved through other, more advanced, methods. Yelling, exercise, and fear of damaging one's career is enough to turn criminals and druggies into highly disciplined United States Marines. The Corps has found ways to rid itself of corporal punishment while being as strong of an organization as ever. Why? Because corporal punishment causes more problems than it solves, and there are more effective ways to punish offenders.

Slowly, the Marine Corps is cracking down on corporal punishment within individual families. If a child is even suspected of being beaten by their father/mother, that Marine's career is ruined. What classifies as being beaten is continuously expanding, even in the Corps.

I'd like to see who these "experts" are, I can pick up a couple of dozen books my wife has laying around written by educators and psychologist that say differently. But I want to make sure to emphasis that there is a big difference in corporal punishment and beating a child.
As already mentioned BIG difference between a recruit and a child, can't use that as a comparison.

[firedog974]

I've studied psychology in college, particularly with children, and everything I've learned has been anti-corporal punishment. All the experts I've heard from say spanking/whipping/hitting children does more bad than good. There are so many other ways to punish a child rather than to use physical force. Children should be able to trust their parents, not fear them.

In the military, why do we have such high discipline? Boot camp has outlawed physical abuse and hazing in the fleet can destroy someone's career. So without these methods, how is it that our level of discipline is so high? Because discipline can be achieved through other, more advanced, methods. Yelling, exercise, and fear of damaging one's career is enough to turn criminals and druggies into highly disciplined United States Marines. The Corps has found ways to rid itself of corporal punishment while being as strong of an organization as ever. Why? Because corporal punishment causes more problems than it solves, and there are more effective ways to punish offenders.

Slowly, the Marine Corps is cracking down on corporal punishment within individual families. If a child is even suspected of being beaten by their father/mother, that Marine's career is ruined. What classifies as being beaten is continuously expanding, even in the Corps.


I can promise the majority of the physcologists you speak of who disaprove of spanking are making a commentary or opinion rather than facts based on research.
http://www.tldm.org/news6/child.discipline.htm
According to the National Institute for Healthcare Research, more than 80 percent of the professional publications attacking spanking were reviews and commentaries, rather than quantitative research. When analyzing the small portion of quantitative studies that included spanking, more than 90 percent of these studies lumped together mild forms of spanking with severe forms of physical abuse without discussing why they did so. Thus, the professional organizations which advocated outlawing spanking evidently made their decisions without the benefit of the facts. Mild spanking and severe child abuse are not the same thing.

[jrhd97]

You would hit a 1 or 2 year old!?

1-2 year olds don't understand the difference between right and wrong, therefore spanking them would be counterproductive. A heart-to-heart would be more appropriate. When they get a little older, old enough to understand the difference between right and wrong, then you can use punishments such as the ones I listed.

1 - 2 year olds do understand. 18 months and older is appropriate age to spank. Now you don't spank an 18 month old in the same manner as a 7 year old. The 18 month, a swift smack to the butt gets there attention. They do understand right from wrong.
The older kid, a few swats to the butt with a paddle works wonders. I don't use a belt or my hand, too personal. We use a wood paddle, designed for the expressed purpose. We never touch it until it is to be used.
Not all behavior is to be corrected with spanking. Loss of toys, games, computers, etc.... will work in many cases.
James Dobson has a very good view on spanking and discipline. My parents used it on the 3 of us, and I use it on my 2. Works like a charm.

[NoRemorse]

My parents physically corrected the both of us growing up.

Its not so much the spanking so much as the consistency of the discipline and punishment meted out. Got our butts swatted with all sorts of trash. Never bled, no hospital trips.

I don't need a study to validate the methods. My issue is that studies countering this one want to take the option away. I'm not going to abuse my child so get your sanctimonious crap out of my house.

I'll spend my time reading to him and playing with him as well as laying down the rules, not listening to yet another study that wants to tell me what I should or shouldn't do. Heaven knows we were barbarians before this with no life expectancy and unparalleled crime rates.

[Isrowei]

I've studied psychology in college, particularly with children, and everything I've learned has been anti-corporal punishment. All the experts I've heard from say spanking/whipping/hitting children does more bad than good. There are so many other ways to punish a child rather than to use physical force. Children should be able to trust their parents, not fear them.

In the military, why do we have such high discipline? Boot camp has outlawed physical abuse and hazing in the fleet can destroy someone's career. So without these methods, how is it that our level of discipline is so high? Because discipline can be achieved through other, more advanced, methods. Yelling, exercise, and fear of damaging one's career is enough to turn criminals and druggies into highly disciplined United States Marines. The Corps has found ways to rid itself of corporal punishment while being as strong of an organization as ever. Why? Because corporal punishment causes more problems than it solves, and there are more effective ways to punish offenders.

Slowly, the Marine Corps is cracking down on corporal punishment within individual families. If a child is even suspected of being beaten by their father/mother, that Marine's career is ruined. What classifies as being beaten is continuously expanding, even in the Corps.

<SIGH>

Just wait till you're a parent. It will make a lot more sense.

Also, there is a huge difference between discipline and abuse. No one here is advocating beatings... which is abuse. Discpline in the form of spankings and swats is far different.

[Rocky C]

I agree that there should be consequences to negative actions, but those consequences should not include physical punishment in my opinion. For example, denying certain priviledges can be just as effective. Grounding them, taking away tv, taking away an allowance, sending them to bed without dinner, etc. Or for more serious offenses, you can scare the sh!t out of them by taking them to a jail and having them spend the night.

Spanking is not a very effective tool. Studies show it teaches kids to avoid being caught more than teaching them be good. Instead striking them, you should make them understand why certain behaviors are bad and develop a sense of morals in them in order to correct certain behaviors in the future. Sometimes spanking can backfire. It can cause anti-social or aggresive behavior which could lead to some psychological problems down the road.

How were you raised Commdog by your parents and what whould you do different when you become a Mother ?

You said you were studying this in College so I am not looking for a Case study.

Real World vs Textbook.

[commdog7]

There is a very fine line between child abuse and spanking, and that line is getting finer and finer as the years go by.

GSEMarine94- The college text book I had for this child psychology class was: Child Development by Laura E. Berk (2006). I also had to do research on the subject for a class assignment, and all credible studies that I stumbled upon stated condemned corporal punishment. It is obsolete and there are better ways to be a good parent.

[commdog7]

How were you raised Commdog by your parents and what whould you do different when you become a Mother ?

I was spanked and hit plenty of times growing up. But I don't believe in that form of punishment and I will never let it be done to my kid. If someone ever tried to lay a hand on my kid, I would kill them.

That doesn't mean that my kid's is going to grow up soft, they will still be punished. I expect my kid to get in fights with other kids and do whatever kids do. They just won't have an adult striking them- I won't have it.

[giveen]

So what are you going to do when your 2 year old reaches for that hot stove?
Over and over and over and over
Over and over and over and over
Over and over and over and over
Over and over and over and over
Over and over and over and over
Over and over and over and over
Over and over and over and over


Keep telling him "no"?

[firedog974]

My brother spouted that "I will never spank my kid" stuff too.....Until his kid turned four and was COMPLETELY off the chain and out of control.........

[Rocky C]

I was spanked and hit plenty of times growing up. But I don't believe in that form of punishment and I will never let it be done to my kid. If someone ever tried to lay a hand on my kid, I would kill them.

That doesn't mean that my kid's is going to grow up soft, they will still be punished. I expect my kid to get in fights with other kids and do whatever kids do. They just won't have an adult striking them- I won't have it.

As the years go by and these posts are in the Archives we shall see if it comes to be once you are a Parent.

I think you'll change your mind................

[commdog7]

Giveen: I would warn him of the consequences (getting burned), but I would not stop him. He gets burned, oh well, should've listened to mommy.

Now if it's something where he could get seriously injured, such as tipping over a pot of boiling water on himself, then I would stop him from doing it, yell at him, and make sure he understands what could've happened. If he does attempt it once again, I would think up some sort of punishment, sending him to his room or something.

This happened to me once when I was little. My brother tried to get me to touch the burning stove, and my Grandma just told me of the consecquences but didn't stop me. I learned my lesson the hard way, and I also learned to listen to my Grandma when she told me not to do something.

[Isrowei]

There is a very fine line between child abuse and spanking, and that line is getting finer and finer as the years go by.

GSEMarine94- The college text book I had for this child psychology class was: Child Development by Laura E. Berk (2006). I also had to do research on the subject for a class assignment, and all credible studies that I stumbled upon stated condemned corporal punishment. It is obsolete and there are better ways to be a good parent.

I guess if you read it in a text book, it must be true, huh? There is more liberal agenda in "psychology" than you can shake a stick at.


Like I said, wait till you're a parent. All the studies in the world won't hold a candle to when you actually experience what child raising is about. Arguing beforehand is like trying to explain the concept of burning fire to someone who has never seen it but only read about it.

[jrhd97]

Giveen: I would warn him of the consequences (getting burned), but I would not stop him. He gets burned, oh well, should've listened to mommy.

Now if it's something where he could get seriously injured, such as tipping over a pot of boiling water on himself, then I would stop him from doing it, yell at him, and make sure he understands what could've happened. If he does attempt it once again, I would think up some sort of punishment, sending him to his room or something.

This happened to me once when I was little. My brother tried to get me to touch the burning stove, and my Grandma just told me of the consecquences but didn't stop me. I learned my lesson the hard way, and I also learned to listen to my Grandma when she told me not to do something.

So you would yell at him, which would show that you are angry and there will not be any consequence from you for his actions. Sure the stove will hurt for a short time, but he will know all you will do is yell and take something away for a short time. No biggie.
Working in childrens ministry I can tell you which kids are spanked out of love and which ones are yelled at or ignored. The yelling and ignoring is a greater disservice to little Johnny than the spanking.

[commdog7]

Let's agree to disagree. I'm not going to change your mind, and you're not going to change mine.

[giveen]

Giveen: I would warn him of the consequences (getting burned), but I would not stop him. He gets burned, oh well, should've listened to mommy.

Now if it's something where he could get seriously injured, such as tipping over a pot of boiling water on himself, then I would stop him from doing it, yell at him, and make sure he understands what could've happened. If he does attempt it once again, I would think up some sort of punishment, sending him to his room or something.


And that may work....and it may not.

Children are extremely stubborn and want their way.
My 9 month old is very set on pulling down my VCR/DVD player/Wii down on his head.

We have said no multiple times, lightly smacked his hands when he reaches for it, moved him to a different room, distracted him with toys and guess what?

2 seconds later he is going for it again.

So you may end up with a darling little angel who is a perfect child. Mostly likely you will get a real child who wants his way.

[Rocky C]

Giveen: I would warn him of the consequences (getting burned), but I would not stop him. He gets burned, oh well, should've listened to mommy.

WOW!!!
From someone that doesn't believe in Spanking to letting a 2 year old Child get Burned ???

Now there's a Condradiction if I ever saw one!!!

[giveen]

Yeah, now THAT is child abuse.

[0331 2 0369]

So you would yell at him, which would show that you are angry and there will not be any consequence from you for his actions. Sure the stove will hurt for a short time, but he will know all you will do is yell and take something away for a short time. No biggie.
Working in childrens ministry I can tell you which kids are spanked out of love and which ones are yelled at or ignored. The yelling and ignoring is a greater disservice to little Johnny than the spanking.


You hit the nail on the head with that one.

I have seen parents do nothing but yell at their kids. What do the kids do?????? Yell back. To them that is the way things work as far as they know. They will grow up yelling because that is the way they were taught.

A smack across the rump (when needed) sends the message that they were wrong and that stinging will go away shortly. A little pain never hurt anyone. Just used restraint when it comes to dealing out punishment.

[commdog7]

RI: That's learning by direct experience.

You spank a kid, it may not necessarily teach them the effects of the action (getting burned), it will just teach them not to do it when an adult it around (not get caught). You let the kid find out for himself why he shouldn't touch the hot stove, then it doesn't matter if an adult is around or not, the kid is not going to touch it again.

It's not about pain, it's about trusting the parent. Spanking them probably won't develop trust, but letting them learn on their own and warning them of their actions will make them realize that you are acting in their best interest.


Giveen- My kid will be a little angel.

[giveen]

I would guess the law would say otherwise.
Purposely allowing your child to get a severe burn would probably constitute endangerment to a child, and child abuse.

[Rocky C]

I would guess the law would say otherwise.
Purposely allowing your child to get a severe burn would probably constitute endangerment to a child, and child abuse.

EXACTLEY!!!

[0331 2 0369]

That's learning by direct experience.

You spank a kid, it may not necessarily teach them the effects of the action (getting burned), it will just teach them not to do it when an adult it around (not get caught). You let the kid find out for himself why he shouldn't touch the hot stove, then it doesn't matter if an adult is around or not, the kid is not going to touch it again.

It's not about pain, it's about trusting the parent. Spanking them probably won't develop trust, but letting them learn on their own and warning them of their actions will make them realize that you are acting in their best interest.


Giveen- My kid will be a little angel.

Kids are going to do anything they want when a parent isn't around. It doesn't matter if you told them no before or if you spanked them before. Kids will be kids and thats just the way it is.

As for the spanking won't develop trust part...... My son and I have a great relationship. And yes I did spank him when he was younger. He learned that when I said no that I meant it and that it was for his best interest. Kids don't really care if you ground them ot take something away. They know they will get it all back later. They will just find something else to entertain them.

I have seen some kids grow up with no one ever laying a hand on them and they were good kids. Remember I said some. Not to many of them around. As they get older and start going to school, they start picking up on other kids bad habits. In all sincerity..... Good luck.

[SGTBrentG]

A little tough love never hurt any kid. Pounding on them is another story. A combination of a swat here and there and taking things away always worked for me. It didn't damage my kids. Two of the three are in college, one pre-med. The one still in high school is a super kid, athletic and outgoing and has tons of friends. They all make good grades, stay out of trouble and are highly respectful. They all three got their backsides warmed up a time or two.

[commdog7]

Giveen: Who the fvck said anything about severe burns?

I'm talking a small blister, not 3nd degree burns or something crazy like that. Did you even read my post? You honestly think that I'd let my kid get seriously injured? How stupid do you think I am?

Please Marines, no more ignorant posts. I'm trying to have an intelligent conversation here. If you want to spin my words around like that, go fvck yourself. Seriously, that sh!t p!sses me off.

[0331 2 0369]

Giveen: Who the fvck said anything about severe burns?

I'm talking a small blister, not 3nd degree burns or something crazy like that. Did you even read my post? You honestly think that I'd let my kid get seriously injured? How stupid do you think I am?

Please Marines, no more ignorant posts. I'm trying to have an intelligent conversation here. If you want to spin my words around like that, go fvck yourselves. Seriously, that sh!t p!sses me off.


For some to always be the first one to pizz and moan about someone being disrespectful you sure do seem to be quick to disrespect. As for the burn..... I guess you are going to know better than anyone else how bad it will be. Not. Could be a little blister could be worst. Doesn't matter. A burn is a burn. Want an intelligent conversation?????? Don't make anymore post like the one above.

[giveen]

You said it.
I said "and what about a child that is reaching for a hot STOVE BURNER"
you said "I would let them get burned"

A stove burner is hot enough to BOIL WATER, think about what that will do to a young childs hand. NOT a small blister.

[commdog7]

I respect your opinion 0331 2 0369, you're an experienced Marine worthy of intelligent conversations.

But every once in a while I am surprised at the level of intelligence of some of the Marines who post in here. They get it in their mind that they will oppose anything I post. Even though I trying to make my position perfectly clear, they feel the need to twist it and turn it against me. It is extremely childish and it is not what I expect of a Marine discussion. They want to be childish with me, I'll be childish with them. You want to have an intelligence conversation with me, I'll have an intelligent conversation with you. That is how I play.

[commdog7]

Giveen- when you decide to you want to rejoin this intelligent conversation, we shall continue.

[giveen]

Giveen- when you decide to you want to rejoin this intelligent conversation, we shall continue.
When you want to go back and re-read everything you wrote, I could care less since obvious you don't have children, don't have any expierence with children and learned everything about raising children out of a book.

[AKA HITMAN]

Then theres the token few who read the books, go to school to obtain a masters,and when and if the real situation arises, they double check the 'books' for the real answers. What you read and what you practice are two different realms of expertise. Like I used to say when a college age inspector would arrive on my jobsites and pick everything apart because his trusty manual gave him the answers, I'd give the old "read the book, but haven't seen the movie" line. Shut them down everytime.
My missus was a domestic violence advocate in 29 Stumps for a handful of years, most of the commands way of dealing with violence in the home was to keep the Marine, get the wife and kids out of the picture and all will be well. Drove her crazy trying to get some of the C.O.'s on board that she finally took a job at a womans shelter in Dallas. At least there most of the offendors are punished per law as well they should be.

[0331 2 0369]

I respect your opinion 0331 2 0369, you're an experienced Marine worthy of intelligent conversations.

But every once in a while I am surprised at the level of intelligence of some of the Marines who post in here. They get it in their mind that they will oppose anything I post. Even though I trying to make my position perfectly clear, they feel the need to twist it and turn it against me. It is extremely childish and it is not what I expect of a Marine discussion. They want to be childish with me, I'll be childish with them. You want to have an intelligence conversation with me, I'll have an intelligent conversation with you. That is how I play.

I am sure you have read/heard it plenty of time before but everyone has their own opinion. Some opinions are worth trying to convince the other person about and some are just better left to wonder.

[commdog7]

Then theres the token few who read the books, go to school to obtain a masters,and when and if the real situation arises, they double check the 'books' for the real answers. What you read and what you practice are two different realms of expertise.

I understand that what I read and what happens in the real world are two different things, but I think we are underestimating the power of education. Maybe my views will slightly change when I have kids, or maybe not. But when you read about these studies done all around the country, you can't help to ignore their findings. Why not use them to better ourselves?

As for the part about my text books and learning the information from 'liberal' sources in a separate post, I feel the need to state I took the class with American Military University- how much liberal views are expressed in a that military university is beyond me, but I think it's more conservative in nature.

[0331 2 0369]

I understand that what I read and what happens in the real world are two different things, but I think we are underestimating the power of education. Maybe my views will slightly change when I have kids, or maybe not. But when you read about these studies done all around the country, you can't help to ignore their findings. Why not use them to better ourselves?

As for the part about my text books and learning the information from 'liberal' sources in a separate post, I feel the need to state I took the class with American Military University- how much liberal views are expressed in a that military university is beyond me, but I think it's more conservative in nature.

Since you don't have kids now, read all you can. Just read both sides of the story (studies). That will give you a little better judgement on where to start. Our mentalities change when kids come into the picture. For the most part anyway. Regardless, please read and look at both sides of the street. Not only will it give you a better view of things but you also gain knowledge to pass on to someone else later in life.

[SGTBrentG]

I'm certainly not questioning your education, the books your read or your beliefs. However, I find it very difficult to believe that child rearing can be learned from a book. I mentioned in a previous post that I have 3 kids. I also have two step children. I have been in their lives since they were about 10 and 7. All five of them are different, have different attitudes and I can't imagine that there is a book that could have told me how to handle each situation I faced with any of them. They range in age from 16-22, have all been slapped and had things taken away. Each one of them would tell you that they deserved it. Note that I said slapped, meaning a swat or two, or maybe even three on the butt. They weren't pounded in to oblivion. They are all OK, will all five be college graduates and productive members of society. There isn't a book anywhere that could given them better guidance or discipline than their parents.......

[Zulu 36]

There is a marked difference between abuse and discipline. I know the difference, both as a parent and as a police officer. I absolutely refused to arrest or prosecute any parent who applied appropriate physical discipline. Mere red marks don't equal abuse in my book.

I p*ssed off a lot of those liberal, do-gooder, childless, college-educated, no common sense, so-called "child protective services investigators" or "school teachers" in the process, but oh well. Even ticked off a couple of prosecutors when I said I would be a witness for the defense.

My department's youth officers had more than one chat with the school district and individual teachers over the statutory definition of "child abuse." Merely spanking a child did not meet the legal boundary, yet teachers still wanted to tell kids their parents were never allowed to hit them, ever, ever, ever. Bull crap.

Have I ever arrested child abusers? You betcha. With pleasure. Broken bones, electric cord lacerations, intentional scaldings, thrown down stairs, shaken baby syndrome (including the wife of a sheriff's deputy), none justifiable.

Something funny I learned over the past 25+ years of being a parent of three (and many years of being the oldest kid of seven): You can grab-ass around with your kids, hitting, pinching, pushing and they laugh and giggle. But be angry and hit them with exactly the same force as you did in play, and they cry and scream like they've been flogged with a cat-o'nine tails. Go figure, but it happens.

And as far as letting kids do dangerous things as a learning process: Best way for the little tykes to learn the danger of things. However, close supervision is necessary to prevent a little lesson-teaching burn from turning into years of skin grafts. A little supervision and some child-proofing go a long way toward teaching life's lessons.

In Post #16 of this thread, I mentioned the beating my father gave me when I was 11. He really did beat me quite badly. However, that was not an unusual circumstance in those days. Fathers ruled the roost, with an iron fist if necessary. Not only did I break a serious law (arson), but I embarrassed my parents by being brought home by cop friends.

I deserved each and every lick he gave me, and probably more. I knew it then, and know it more so now. I am grateful for the beatings he gave me (there were more than that one, just not as bad) as they kept me on a straight path for the balance of my life.