View Full Version : Purple Hearts proposed for Fort Hood victims
Ed Palmer
11-17-09, 02:37 PM
Purple Hearts proposed for Fort Hood victims
CNN ^ | 11/17/09 | unnamed
Posted on Tuesday, November 17, 2009 2:29:19 PM by Califreak
Washington (CNN) -- Military victims of the Fort Hood massacre will be eligible to receive the Purple Heart if Congress passes a bill introduced Tuesday.
Non-military victims could receive the Secretary of Defense Medal of Freedom -- the civilian equivalent of the Purple Heart. Both military and civilian personnel killed or wounded in the November 5 attack would be granted the same legal status as combatant casualties in Afghanistan and Iraq.
The bill was introduced by Texas GOP Rep. John Carter, who represents Fort Hood in the House of Representatives.
(Excerpt) Read more at cnn.com ...
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Hotel4341
11-17-09, 03:01 PM
As someone who hasn't done anything to warrant this recognition of the ultimate sacrifice, I don't think my opinion should be the deciding factor on this. I can see this as a precedent that could end up causing some controversy (were the Marines killed in the OKC bombings awarded the Purple Heart, for instance), but I also know that those men and women were deploying, therefore a vital part of the effort in Iraq and Afghanistan.
I definitely would like to hear the opinion of someone who has received this recognition.
polizei
11-17-09, 04:18 PM
I'm going to have to disagree with this one. Putting myself in that situation (either military or civilian) I wouldn't want it.
SlingerDun
11-17-09, 04:27 PM
Yes! They took hits from a treasonist terrorist ...the enemy.
--->Dave
polizei
11-17-09, 04:30 PM
Does that mean the Marine killed on Camp Lejeune rates it as well? You could argue that was a treason terrorist as well.
The Purple Heart is awarded in the name of the President of the United States to any member of an Armed Force or any civilian national of the United States who, while serving under competent authority in any capacity with one of the US Armed Services after 5 April 1917, has been wounded or killed, or who has died or may hereafter die after being wounded:
In any action against an enemy of the United States.
In any action with an opposing armed force of a foreign country in which the Armed Forces of the United States are or have been engaged.
While serving with friendly foreign forces engaged in an armed conflict against an opposing armed force in which the United States is not a belligerent party.
As a result of an act of any such enemy of opposing armed forces.
As the result of an act of any hostile foreign force.
After 28 March 1973, as a result of an international terrorist attack against the United States or a foreign nation friendly to the United States, recognized as such an attack by the Secretary of the Army, or jointly by the Secretaries of the separate armed services concerned if persons from more than one service are wounded in the attack.
After 28 March 1973, as a result of military operations while serving outside the territory of the United States as part of a peacekeeping force.
These are the Army regs taken from www.Armyawards.com
I say no.
SlingerDun
11-17-09, 05:33 PM
....In any action against an enemy of the United States...
cuttin through the technical BS, I approvehttp://www.leatherneck.com/forums/images/icons/icon14.gif
Though if the live victims up for "award" have to wait on obuma to acknowledge this terrorist attack as something more than a tragedy? Well they might as well take a seat at the DMV on friday lunchtime.
--->Dave
So if I get fragged by a LCpl do I rate a Purple Heart?
SlingerDun
11-17-09, 06:07 PM
Well i suppose you rate whatever you earn or is bestowed upon you. Now if i may quote Clint E, "deserving's got nothin to do with it"
--->Dave
Troutzilla
11-17-09, 06:18 PM
No
ggyoung
11-17-09, 06:22 PM
So if I get fragged by a LCpl do I rate a Purple Heart?
No. This is something that has bugged me since Vietnam. The same goes for US Troops killed by friendly fire. I feel that they should have a P.H.
fpdesignco
11-17-09, 07:56 PM
No way, How many marines in history have committed homicide against there own? Is it because he did it in higher numbers and said allah is great...?
If I walk into work tomorrow with a sack full of golf balls and start beaming the s*it out of Marines, will they rate the Purple Heart?
Here's a serious question. Did the men and women that were injured in the attack on the Pentagon on September 11th receive Purple Hearts?
NoRemorse
11-17-09, 09:35 PM
Here's a serious question. Did the men and women that were injured in the attack on the Pentagon on September 11th receive Purple Hearts?
Here's a follow-up question wherein the answer to yours is thinly veiled: Why did so many clamor to name the victims of the two towers heroes, regardless of whether or not they were responding to the crisis?
SlingerDun
11-17-09, 09:44 PM
If I walk into work tomorrow with a sack full of golf balls and start beaming the s*it out of Marines,,,Thats cute but i doubt they will fall for the old banana in the tail pipe trick
shrapneldude
11-17-09, 11:38 PM
I think the victims of the Ft. Hood attack rate the Purple Heart every bit as much as the DoD Military members killed or injured at the Pentagon on 9/11 deserve it, IF it's proven (fairly certain it has been conclusivlely proven) that this clown had ties to Al Quaeda, or other similar terrorist organizations.
Regardless of any personal feelings on it, the US is currently at WAR with Terrorism. Hence, Global War on Terror. So...someone acting on behalf of a terrorist organization is an enemy combattant, and an enemy of the united states, foreign or domestic as the oath states.
I got a Purple Heart for being wounded by a terrorist, so should the victims of a rogue jackass Army major with ties to Terrorist organizations. Taking that oath of service and still electing to serve in the military makes the soldiers at Ft. Hood engaged in military service viable military targets, being wounded in the perfomance of those duties rates the Purple Heart.
No -- an officer getting shot on the rifle range by a disgruntled PFC is probably not a candidate for a Purple Heart, but the PFC isn't acting out the global terrorist Jihad either.
Did the officers killed by the muslim Army troop who hurled a grenade into their tent get the Purple Heart?
Then again, since we're conducting the GWOT as international police, and all enemy combattants are going to be tried by the civillian justice system, I suppose it's a moot point anyhow, and nobody should get the Purple Heart.
Then again, since we're conducting the GWOT as international police, and all enemy combattants are going to be tried by the civillian justice system, I suppose it's a moot point anyhow, and nobody should get the Purple Heart.
Took the words RIGHT out of my mouth!! Along those same lines, we should disband the military and allow INTERPOL and other world law enforcement agencies to handle the GWOT if their being tried as civilians....(no, I'm not serious, but it does **** me off that they're getting civilian rights)
No, they shouldnt rate a Purple Heart.
2nd. - this was not a act of terrorism, it was an act of a looney. One of many which the gov allows to join the military. Im sure this isnt the first time of a military member shooting others.
Wyoming
11-18-09, 09:05 AM
No, they shouldnt rate a Purple Heart.
2nd. - this was not a act of terrorism, it was an act of a looney. One of many which the gov allows to join the military. Im sure this isnt the first time of a military member shooting others.
Ma'am, this most definately IS and WAS an act of terrorism!!
Referring to the rules listed in post #6, it would appear that in order for those injured or killed in the Ft Hood attack to rate the PH, DOD would have to classify the incident as a terrorist attack. At the present time, the Army, DOD, the CIC, and just about anyone else in the administration that has a microphone in front of their face has denied any possibility of this being a terrorist attack, and seem more interested in what the Army or American society in general did to upset the "poor Muslim Major" and cause him to go jihad on his tormentors.....SO... no PH for the victims..
FistFu68
11-18-09, 11:12 AM
:evilgrin: 1/2 of Me says Yes the other 1/2 of Me says No :confused: :iwo:
Ma'am, this most definately IS and WAS an act of terrorism!!
UHHH NO! NOT A TERRORIST ACT.
He didnt do it to represent terrorism or act to scare people. He did it because he is a looney and in his own way he would benefit by feeling succesful for once in his life.
FistFu68
11-18-09, 12:51 PM
:evilgrin: Now if You came up with that conclusion as a Juror at His trial He might be set free because as You put it He was looney.Where as we try the Mutha Fucer as a Terrorist and Hang Him by the Neck until Dead S/F That .Excuse My French :scared: :iwo:
Wyoming
11-18-09, 01:26 PM
UHHH NO! NOT A TERRORIST ACT.
He didnt do it to represent terrorism or act to scare people. He did it because he is a looney and in his own way he would benefit by feeling succesful for once in his life.
With all due respect there Missy, but you are full of it, and it was terrorism.
You say he was looney? Well what a wonderful defense. If he is tried as looney, serves a year or 2, is then declared, unlooney, can he come live next to you and yours?
Sheeit, Ma'am, he got a phone call. From his cell leader. He did what he was trained to do, kill the infidels.
This is just some much bull****. I had to throw away a brand new tube of toothpaste at the airport Sunday. Never opened. Still in the sealed box. I asked if I could squeeze out 2/3'ds of it and be OK. Nope, gotta throw it away. *******s.
... and all of this because of the ****ing terrorists, I mean loonies. Sheeit!!
With all due respect there Missy, but you are full of it, and it was terrorism.
You say he was looney? Well what a wonderful defense. If he is tried as looney, serves a year or 2, is then declared, unlooney, can he come live next to you and yours?
Sheeit, Ma'am, he got a phone call. From his cell leader. He did what he was trained to do, kill the infidels.
This is just some much bull****. I had to throw away a brand new tube of toothpaste at the airport Sunday. Never opened. Still in the sealed box. I asked if I could squeeze out 2/3'ds of it and be OK. Nope, gotta throw it away. *******s.
... and all of this because of the ****ing terrorists, I mean loonies. Sheeit!!
AMEN!!!!!!!
With all due respect there Missy, but you are full of it, and it was terrorism.
You say he was looney? Well what a wonderful defense. If he is tried as looney, serves a year or 2, is then declared, unlooney, can he come live next to you and yours?
Sheeit, Ma'am, he got a phone call. From his cell leader. He did what he was trained to do, kill the infidels.
This is just some much bull****. I had to throw away a brand new tube of toothpaste at the airport Sunday. Never opened. Still in the sealed box. I asked if I could squeeze out 2/3'ds of it and be OK. Nope, gotta throw it away. *******s.
... and all of this because of the ****ing terrorists, I mean loonies. Sheeit!!
Your new strategy is pretty funny, but sadly they still don't get it.
Your new strategy is pretty funny, but sadly they still don't get it.
I caught that too.... Pretty funny, but as you said, it's sad that it hasn't been picked up on.
nvusmcsgt
11-18-09, 03:43 PM
First off based on the regs stated in post #6---No
Second these Soldiers were not in a combat theatre nor were they attacked by an enemy force, They were attacked by a fellow member of the United States Army. Whether or not this jerkoff was a terrorist or not they do not rate the PH. If they keep changing the rules on how someone can get the PH it takes away from the original award and it loses its value.
These Soldiers should never be forgotten and something needs to be done to curb these types of things happening in our Armed Forces. I just dont think they rate the PH for what happend.
Semper Fi
This man has been tracked sending emails to a jihadist group in Yemen. This man has stated publicly he thinks the Muslims should rise against the aggressor. He's befriended countless individuals who feel the same way via the endless resources available via the internet. He may not have screamed "allah achbar" before killing these Soldiers, but I'm sure an honest probe, which we probably won't get de-classified, will show that this man had some terrorist ties and it wouldn't suprise me if they found out this was a religious crime against the USA. It's too early to decide right now though...
No way on the PH. Maybe a commerative medal of some kind or some other kind of recognition but don't devalue the honor of the PH.
Wyoming
11-18-09, 04:54 PM
Your new strategy is pretty funny, but sadly they still don't get it.
I caught that too.... Pretty funny, but as you said, it's sad that it hasn't been picked up on.
But the 64K question is, 'Why? Why don't they get it?'
shrapneldude
11-18-09, 10:04 PM
No way on the PH. Maybe a commerative medal of some kind or some other kind of recognition but don't devalue the honor of the PH.
Why would it devalue the honor of the Purple Heart? These men were serving their country, and a crazed religious zealot with ties to a terrorist organization that has declared WAR on America shot and wounded and killed them. Whether or not they end up receiving the Purple Heart and what they refer to this act (terrorism, crime, etc...) IF that is hashed out by DoD and Congress, why would it devalue the Purple Heart?
I don't see it. An American warrior is wounded or killed by an enemy agent while serving his country. He gets a Purple Heart. I know guys who got a "PH" for concussions, and minor scrapes and abrasions and nobody tore into them for taking their medals.
Is anyone on here a leader with the Military Order of the Purple Heart? My membership has lapsed for some time, but I'd be curious to hear what they'd have to say as to whether awarding these men the medal would devalue it.
Hotel4341
11-19-09, 08:31 AM
The more I think about it, the more I'm against this. The point in my head that bugs me is not all victims of terrorist attacks rate the PH. Go back to the service members serving at the Pentagon on 9/11, or even further back to the OKC bombings. McVeigh was a former soldier who disliked the government, and his bombs killed two Marines (friggin' hooahs!). The precedent has already been set that while these tragic events and their victims should always be remembered, they still don't rate the PH.
0331 2 0369
11-19-09, 08:50 AM
Ever since the 9-11 attacks, the phrase "Act of Terrorism" has taken on a whole new meaning with so many different views. Unless he is labeled a terrorist by the government, it was not an act of terrorism. Do I consider it an act of terrorism? From the info I have read and seen, yes I do and they should label this guy a terrorist and try him as such. Just like the OKC bombing, an act of terrorism by definition but done by someone that was not an actual terrorist as many people view. Religion really has nothing to do with terrorism. Sure it plays a role when we profile people but doesn't make someone a terrorist just because of their religion.
What if this turd was a Southern Baptist Preacher and shot all those people? Would we be calling it an act of terrorism? No, we would be calling him crazy. Would they be considered for the PH then? No. Just food for thought.
Ever since the 9-11 attacks, the phrase "Act of Terrorism" has taken on a whole new meaning with so many different views. Unless he is labeled a terrorist by the government, it was not an act of terrorism. Do I consider it an act of terrorism? From the info I have read and seen, yes I do and they should label this guy a terrorist and try him as such. Just like the OKC bombing, an act of terrorism by definition but done by someone that was not an actual terrorist as many people view. Religion really has nothing to do with terrorism. Sure it plays a role when we profile people but doesn't make someone a terrorist just because of their religion.
What if this turd was a Southern Baptist Preacher and shot all those people? Would we be calling it an act of terrorism? No, we would be calling him crazy. Would they be considered for the PH then? No. Just food for thought.
I see your point Gunny but you said that OKC was an act of terrorism but not by a terrorist? What defines you as a terrorist then? Do you have to goto boot camp or something to earn that title? It just doesn't make much sense to me. As I said before though, I belive that more information needs to be gathered as to this scumbags ties to Yemen and terrorist groups there.
As of right now, I don't know whether or not I think they should get it. I'm leaning towards yes though with what I've been able to read so far.
doc h fmf
11-19-09, 10:26 AM
I DONT THINK THEY RATE THE PH but they are in my thoughts and prays
0331 2 0369
11-19-09, 11:47 AM
I see your point Gunny but you said that OKC was an act of terrorism but not by a terrorist? What defines you as a terrorist then? Do you have to goto boot camp or something to earn that title? It just doesn't make much sense to me. As I said before though, I belive that more information needs to be gathered as to this scumbags ties to Yemen and terrorist groups there.
As of right now, I don't know whether or not I think they should get it. I'm leaning towards yes though with what I've been able to read so far.
This is were views differ on the definition of terrorism and terrorist acts. OKC is a tactic used by terrorist. Therefore people want to call it a terrorist act. Same as the dirtbag in Texas. Tactic that terrorist use but was carried out by someone that has not been considered a terrorist as of yet. Both are tactics used by terrorist so I guess you could call it an act of terrorism but were they actually carried out by terrorist? We have our own "Homegrown" terrorist here in the states. I guess what it comes down to is what is your definition of a terrorist. There are many different definitions out there depending on what the source is. They all say close to the same but most of them leaves a grey area for interpretation.
Where the kids that carried out the Columbine shooting terrorist? This is an example of where views will differ on terrorist and acts of terrorism.
The Department of Defense Dictionary of Military Terms defines terrorism as:
The calculated use of unlawful violence or threat of unlawful violence to inculcate fear; intended to coerce or to intimidate governments or societies in the pursuit of goals that are generally political, religious, or ideological.
0331 2 0369
11-19-09, 01:24 PM
The Department of Defense Dictionary of Military Terms defines terrorism as:
The calculated use of unlawful violence or threat of unlawful violence to inculcate fear; intended to coerce or to intimidate governments or societies in the pursuit of goals that are generally political, religious, or ideological.
That is the key word. That can be viewed as a catch-all. So the Columbine shooters can be called terrorist if you use that word.
Agreed Gunny.
Terrorist operations usually fall into 7 different catagories:
1. Bombings
2. Arson
3. Armed assaluts/Raids and Ambushes- May be designed to gain access to funds, resources or just to EMBARRASS THE GOVERNMENT:scared:
4. Kidnappiing/Hostage Taking
5. Hijacking/Skyjacking
6. Assassinaiton
7. WMDs
HMMMMMMMMMMM.... Definately makes one wonder......
KaosDad
11-19-09, 02:32 PM
Here's a serious question. Did the men and women that were injured in the attack on the Pentagon on September 11th receive Purple Hearts?
I didn't see this question explicitly answered (read the thread twice - I could still be blind!).
shrapneldude implicitly answered it, but here are two sources I found:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pentagon_Memorial
"Opened in September 2002 after Pentagon repairs were completed, the America's Heroes Memorial and chapel are located where American Airlines Flight 77 crashed into the building.
The memorial includes a book of photographs and biographies of the victims. It also includes five large black acrylic panels: one displays the Purple Heart medal awarded to military members killed in the attacks, another shows the medal given to civilians, two back wall panels are etched with the victims' names, and a center panel shows tribute statements. The small chapel, located in an adjacent room, has stained glass windows with patriotic-themed designs."
This indicates that Military Personnel were awarded the PH at both sites.
http://www.defenselink.mil/news/newsarticle.aspx?id=44815:
"Military and civilian personnel killed or injured in the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks will be recognized for their sacrifice, Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld said Sept. 27.
Service members will receive the traditional Purple Heart medal."
Again - if this has been answered & I missed it, sorry.
Good find KaosDad...if thats the case, I think that the argument FOR PHs is strengthened.
What this guy did falls under #3 of ZX6rdr's post...He took out 40+ people with semi-automatic weapons in a highly populated and planned enviroment. I don't think he was driving in to work and said "Hmmm...lets go shoot this place up". It was probably planned. And I'd like to think his "allah is great" and "Muslims should stand up against the aggressor" make for quite the argument that he was, in fact, a terrorist! And thats not even factoring in his ties to terrorist networks...
Hotel4341
11-20-09, 07:09 AM
Thank you for that KaosDad.
I'm still of the opinion that there needs to be some proof that this guy was actually part of a terrorist cell, and not some chitbag who allegedly tried to get in contact with one. If that were the case, then the precedent has been set to give those soldiers a PH.
silverdollar
11-21-09, 08:00 AM
I don`t see what terrorism has to do with it, I thought that you received the PH for being wounded during combat with the enemy? if that is the case, nobody should receive the PH for wounds caused by an act of terrorism.
Wyoming
11-21-09, 09:26 AM
Again, not terrorism my dying ass!!
Here's one for you, are the 'victims, of this 'non-terrorist act' going to be compensated, as were the families of the WTC terrorist acts? ... or were those acts of loonies?