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View Full Version : poolees. So you want to be infantry huh?



offhand200
08-17-03, 09:00 PM
For those of you that don't know me, my name is Sgt Chapman. I'm here to answer questions to you poolees that will be going to boot camp soon. Since I train recruits in the Marksmanship phase of boot camp, I'm a resource you can use. However, this section is for all of you poolees that are planning on becoming Infantryman. Those Killer 03's that everyone hears so much about but no one can seem to locate. Well look no further my soon to be bretheren for not only am I a Highly Motivated master of Marksmanship instruction. I also happened to be one Highly dedicated master of ground poundin'...feet beatin'...bug eatin' non-stop balls to the wall infantry tactition. What I mean by that of course is that I am a Grunt, the big 03...0311 that is. I'm an infantry rifleman, the heart of the Marine Combat Machine. And if any of you motivated poolees think that you have the cajone's to be in the "Grunts" then feel free to ask me any questions you like. I would be glad to share my knowledge. But be warned, this information is for the faint of heart, grunts are as mean and tenacious as they come, so be prepared.
P.S. Don't ask me about any jobs other than infantry or recruit training, cause I DON'T CARE WHAT ADMINISTRATIVE SCHOOL IS LIKE!!!!!!! Carry on....

BGMFH
08-18-03, 12:43 AM
Sergeant Chapman, could you please give us a run-down of what SOI is like? I've seen the schedule on Camp Lejeune's website, but reading a planning schedule is not the same thing as a first-hand account.

Thank you Sergeant.

firstsgtmike
08-18-03, 01:16 AM
Now, here's someone displaying common sense. He is taking the opportunity to get the information straight from the horse' s mouth, rather than settling for it from a horse's rear end.

bear_grunt
08-18-03, 05:41 PM
Sgt. Chapman,
I too would like to know what the SOI is. Any information would be great. How much alike are Marine infanry and Army Infantry (I'm ex Army). How are they different? Once you are MOS qualified, is there any way you can request a certain unit? (For example, my uncle was in the 2nd Marine Div and I wanted to carry on the legacy.)

bear_grunt
08-18-03, 08:46 PM
Here is another question. I have read posts where poolies ahve asked questions that have all ready been answered in previous posts. Is there a good place to start reviewing post?

Question # 2- Is there a good place (book, website) that would give me a basic understanding of a typical infantry unit. For example if you wanted to know about my old unit, the 82d Airborne (no I'm not name dropping, it's just the best example I can come up with), I would tell someone to look at Tom Clancey's book "Airborne: A guided Tuor Though an Airborne Division". Any suggestoins?

Final question... Has the Marine Corps adopted or will they in the near future adopt the M4?

Echo_Four_Bravo
08-18-03, 09:44 PM
Bear, I don't know the name of the book, but Clancy also wrote one about a Marine MEU. While it focused on more than just the GCE, they were of course the center peice of the book.
Now, I am sure the motivated PMI would be able to answer your question about the M-4 much better than I, but I am going to answer it any way. (Just because I can't let the chance to offer an opinion go by.) The M-4 is not a good fit to the Marine Corps, and from I have been told, it will not become the basic issue weapon. While I have never shot the M=4, I have some experience with other short variations on the M-16/AR-15 rifle. In my experience, at 500 meters, you would have just about as much success if you threw the bullets down range. While it can be debated whether or not a Marine (or soldier) on the ground needs to be able to take a 500 meter shot or not; I do not think it is possible to debate the choice the Marine Corps has made to include this in the course of fire. As you well know, the fundamentals of marksmanship become more important each time you move away from the target. Being slightly off at 200 meters will not hurt you as much as being off at 500 meters. For this reason, I personally feel it is important to train at the greatest possible distance from the target. With some weapons systems you can move back further, but with others you would have to move in closer. With the M-4 I would "assume" that the 300 meter line would be about as far back as you could go with success. (Tell me if I am wrong Sgt.) I do not think that is wise.

Rufe
08-19-03, 12:47 AM
the Tom Clancy book is called "Marine A Guided Tour of a Marine Expeditionary Unit" it tours the 26th MEU

offhand200
08-19-03, 07:12 PM
1st things 1st. I am thrilled to see so many questions and comments. Knowledge is the key to all our successes. 1st Sgt Mike I would just like to say that I love your good ol' fashioned Marine Sense of humor. As For BGMFH, whatever the hell that means, the 1st Sgt is right it is better to hear it from the horses mouth.
For starters SOI stands for school of infantry as you should already know. However what you probably don't know is that even non infantry Marines go to SOI. Infantry Marines go to ITB (Infantry Training Battalion) and non infantry Marines go to MCT (Marine Combat Training.) ITB is very much in it's own way like boot camp. What I mean by that is...ITB is the basic knowledge that you will need to know as an infantry Marine. How to do basic land navigation, or basic patrolling techniques. You will certainly have more freedom there than you will in Boot Camp, but it is still a very basic course. I'm not sure what the timeline you read says but the truth of the matter is...the schedual for ITB gets changed a lot. The heart and soul of a well trained infantry unit lies within the small unit leaders, such as Platoon Sergeants, squad leaders or fire team leaders, and how well they train their Marines. Make no mistake the knowledge that you learn at ITB is very important, but the bulk of your infantry skills will be tought to you by your unit. I hope this answers your question. If not perhaps you could give me a little more feedback and we can work from there.
Semper Fidelis.

offhand200
08-19-03, 07:18 PM
Real quick for Bear_Grunt. I did a little chatting with you the other day. As far as differences, Marines will tell you that we are harder. The reality of it is, the army has different types of Infantry as you well know. We just have Infantry. I think that we are a little tougher than the Army. I don't just say that because I'm a Marine either, I have had the oppertunity to train with the Army on several occasions. With the exception of their spec ops I think that they just fall short. But don't think that they don't serve a purpose, they have strength in numbers, and somebody has provide comedy relief to the enemy.
Question#2 That book by Tom Clancy is a great book from what I hear, but I haven't read it. If you want good insight as to what Marine Corps infantry is really like, you just have to experience it. It's like combat in that sense, no one can really tell you what it's like, it's an experience all in itself. However, unlike combat, the Marine Corps infantry is to me the greatest place to be. You will never find a stronger Brotherhood.
As far as requesting a Unit. Upon completion of ITB you will be placed according to the needs of the Marine Corps. However if you decide to stay for another enlistment you will have the option of duty station you desire the first time you re-enlist.

offhand200
08-19-03, 07:35 PM
Now on to the M4
It's interesting to me that this debate should arise here. I only say that because just recently we did some testing with the M4 while downrange with recruits. First let me say E4B that the M4 is just as effective at 500 yards as the m-16. Surprising isn't it? I thought so too, but it's true. However, it is harder in my opinion, to form a good position. Believe it or not, some recruits that were chosen to shoot the M4, performed better with that weapon at 500 yards than they did with the m-16. But those with longer arms had the most trouble. The m4 is a good weapon that has it's uses. For example, I had the pleasure of working with the Spec Ops (Force Recon) community for about 2 and a half years. We used the m4 for shooting in doors when we did hostage rescues or vessel boarding operations. The fact is the M4 is better as a close range weapon, but can be employed effectively at long range if the Marine using it knows what he's doing. I actually think your comment about the M4 being good to only about 300 yards is kind of funny. The reason that I say that is statistically, Marine recruits, and Marines shoot better from 500 yards than they do from 300 yards. The Marine Corps has however made the decision to go with a newer version of the
M-16 A2. The new weapon is supposed to be the same basic setup and size as the current, however, it will have rails on the handguards for mounting different types of optical devices. I think the new weapon will be good accept there is plan to have a handle much like that found on the front of an old Tommygun. I think that this particular bit of hardware is a wase of time as it serves no purpose in effective marksmanship on the range or in a combat enviroment. The m4 is used within the Spec Ops community in the Marine Corps and will continue to be, but I don't think it will hold a place in the regular Infantry any time soon.

bear_grunt
08-20-03, 09:57 PM
Sgt Chapman,
What is qualifcation like at Recruit Training? I've seen a lot of old Marine movies that have those targets that go up and down with the spots that go over where the shooter hit. In the Army (Army= A: Aint R:ready for M: the Marine Corps Y: yet) you would get the into to the M-16 class followed by zeroing the rifle. That is followed by a couple of days firing on the range in the fighting position, the prone supported position and the prone unsupported position. After they are sure that everyone knows that the rounds come out of the long small end of the rifle you would qualify on a range of pop up targets. You fire80 rounds to qualify.
SO.... I guess what I'm asking is what do we have to look forward to? How different is the range set up for the M-12A2 than the SAW or any other weapon. As a MArksmanship instructor do you ever instruct on any of the other weapons or are you primarily an istructor on the M-16A2?
Final questions....(must have input... Brain feels so empty... information is llike a drug and I need my fix!) Even though SOI just gives you the basics, do they cover patroling under different conditions? (MOUNT vs forest vs desert vs moutains)
NExt.. What are the ranks usually assosiated with the different leadership positions in the squad? For example would a CPL be the fire team leader and a SGT be the squad leader? I have about a million and one other questions... but I'll save them for another post. Thanks again Sgt. Chapman for making yourself available to answer these questions. Keep your feet and knees in the breeze and have a hardcore day.

Echo_Four_Bravo
08-20-03, 10:17 PM
Wow Sgt. Chapman, I am shocked! Like I said, I have no experience with the M-4 but I am surprised. With the shorter barrel length, I would have thought it would have lost some accuracy like most weapons do. I guess I should be even more impressed with the weapon than I already am. And, no doubt for CQB situations, it has an advantage over the M-16A2. As for being more accurate at 500 meters, it doesn't surprise me. I know I always shot better at 500 than at 200 or 300. Something about just laying there waiting for the target to come back up. Once you have your position locked in, it's just (to steal a phrase from the Army) TOO EASY!

offhand200
08-20-03, 11:42 PM
Bear,
You really do thirst for knowledge don't you? That's ok though. That's what I, and any other intstructor likes best. Someone who asks questions.
Qualification in the Marine Corps is very different than that of the Army. The Marines have two different courses. One for the Recruits, (which is based more on precision shooting) and one for Marines who have already completed recruit training, (which is based more on combat...or so they say.)
For our purposes I'm only going to cover the course of Fire for recruit training. You will fire what is known as the ELR (Entry Level Rifle.) When you arrive at Edson Range (Recruits going to San Diego Only...Those going to Parris Island will stay there when going to the range,) your first week will consist of classes with your PMI. Each recruit platoon will have there own. You will get classes for the entire week. These classes will include all of the fundamentals of marksmanship, effects of weather on the shooter, and on the rounds/weapon, classes on how to "zero" the M-16 A2, the sighting system, the course of fire, how to "build" a good prone, sitting, kneeling, or standing position. You will learn more knowledge about good marksmanship than you know what to do with. PAY ATTENTION!!! There is nothing taught that first week that isn't important. On Wednsday of that first week you will go to the range in the afternoon to do your "grouping exersize" This is the first time most recruits ever shoot the weapon. The following Monday, or the next week you will actually go to the rifle range.
Course of fire:
200 yard slow fire Stage 1
5 rounds sitting 5 rounds kneeling 5 rounds standing...the time limit for this stage of fire is 20 minutes.
200 yard rapid fire stage 2
10 rounds fired from 2 magazines containing 5 rounds each in a time limit of 70 seconds. You will go from standing up to a sitting position in order to fire.
300 yard slow fire stage 3
5 rounds sitting in a time limit of 5 minutes
300 yard rapid fire stage 4
Again you will fire 10 rounds from 2 magazines of 5 rounds each in a time limit of 70 seconds. For this you will go from standing to a prone position.
500 yard slow fire stage 5
10 rounds prone in a time limit of 10 minutes
That is the entire course of fire it consists of 50 rounds with a possible score of 5 points each, totaling 250 points. Keep in mind no one has ever shot a perfect score. There are 3 different types of targets you will fire on. The "Able" target which is a basic square target with a 12" round bullseye. The "Dog" target which is designed as the sillouette of a man in the prone, so it only shows a head and shoulders. (That is the target you will fire your rapid fires on.) Then there is the "B mod" target which is the sillouette of a man from waist to head. (That is the target you will fire on at 500 Yards.) During monday through thursday of your "firing" week you will practice all of the marksmanship skills you learned the week prior, only you will be firing live rounds. SAFETY IS PARAMOUNT!!!!!!!!!! The best part is however, you will have a "Coach" a marksmanship instructor who will work with you through the entire week to help "ingrain" the fundamentals of marksmanship with you. He will help you to perfect each of the firing positions, and guide you through the process. Now, on friday you will have to qualify. The coach will only be there to help you in between stages of fire on friday, while your on the firing line, YOUR ON YOUR OWN! So you better pay attention. If you did pay attention and ask plenty of questions, qualification will be easy and fun, if you didn't pay attention, it can and probably will be a very stressfull day for you.
As far as the other techniques of fire you asked about, you will learn those the week after qualification (providing you qualify) during your "Feild Week." I don't handle this phase of boot camp, but I do know about it so if you have questions on that ask me and I'll tell you what I can.
As far as instruction on the M249 Saw, and other such weapons, that takes place at SOI. I am not currently a SAWI (Small Arms Weapons Instructor.) However I will be going to that school (SAWIS...Small Arms Weapons Instructors School) in November. So, for those of you who are going to boot camp after that, you can ask me questions about that when I return from the school.
In SOI/ITB you will learn basic patrolling techniques in a semi dense vegitation are abord MCB Camp Pendleton (San Diego) and you will have the oppertunity to learn some basic MOUT techniques as well. However, since all of the training takes place abord Camp Pendleton, you will not have desert training or the like until you get to your infantry unit.
Ranks:
Unlike the Army where a Staff Sergeant is a squad leader. In the Marine Corps we place more responibility on our NCO's. Corporals are usually Fire team leaders, sometimes squad leaders when Sergeants are in short supply. Staff Sergeants are platoon Sergeants in the Marine Corps.
I hope this answers all your questions fully, but if not feel free to ask me some more. I enjoy answering them
Until next time. Semper Fi
Sgt Chapman

bear_grunt
08-21-03, 10:26 PM
SGT Chapman,
What is the zero range like? From what distance and how many rounds?
Next question is about maintaining a stable posture. Where do you tell the recruits to place their hand on the hand guards? When I qualify with the Department of Corrections I usually have my hand on the silver rings that hold the hand guards on. (Please forgive my ignorance SGT. I have forgotten what that is called.) I try to get my body as compact as possible and usually fire 10 for 10. Of course the target is only 50 meters away and you can measure my grouping with a frisbee. I was just wondering what your thoughts on this were. The input would be benificial now as well because I've got to go qualify next month for the DOC.
What I don't understand is why do you train in the sitting position? I can understand kneeling, standing and the prone, but not the sitting position. There is probably a real obvious reason that I am overlooking. "Recruit Bear! Whay are you firing in the sitting position!?!" "Because you told me to! Sir!"

offhand200
08-21-03, 10:46 PM
The range that you fire your Zeroing exersize on will be the same range that you fire on for qualification. Your zeroing exersize will be fired monday morning of your "firing week" This exersize consists of three strings of fire. Two of three rounds and one of four rounds. It is fired at the 300 yard line in the prone position.
There is more involved in the placement of the foreward hand than just "where" Straight out of the book "the handguards should rest flat across the palm of the hand in the "v" formed by the thumb and index finger. The elbow should be inverted and underneath the weapon." This is something that you will learn a lot more about in boot camp, during your first week at Edson Range. (It's called "Grass week") Your body is not going to be compact per say. The fact of the matter is to teach you all of the fundamentals required for a good shooting position takes a couple of days. If you go to any search engine, such as yahoo and type in MCRP 3-01A you will get several results for your search. However the first result on the page is the Marine Corps unclassified publication on Marksmanship. All of the fundamentals that we teach come from that publication. It does a good job of expaining everything to you. Look it up and then if you have any questions regarding anything covered in that manual, feel free to ask me. As far as why we fire in the sitting position, a long time ago a bunch of Marines and Civilians who knew a whole lot about Marksmanship sat down together and decided what we would do. I don't know why we train in the sitting but I can find out. Ask me again next week.

Seeley
08-21-03, 11:29 PM
offhand200,

Not to brag or anything but I got the 3rd place 12th MCD shooter's award for 4 position air-rifle (MCJROTC) this year. I'm going to be the captain of the rifle team for my JROTC as well as the company comander. If you have any tips of what I should do as a shooter I'm open. My SMI is my range master and knows quite a bit and has helped a lot but two heads are better than one :).

Caesar Augustus
09-10-03, 09:07 PM
I'm left handed and most people I know are right handed. How do you teach left handed people to shoot assuming the instructor is right handed or are there left and right handed instructors. Srry couldnt think of a better question right now but I really need some infor

Osotogary
09-10-03, 10:03 PM
Hello, Caesar.
My son is left handed and hand to shoot (qualify) on the right side. From what I understand...that's just the way it is and you have to deal with it. He did very well just as you will.
If memory serves me correctly there are "boot camp " stories about the rifle range that relate to your concerns.
Good luck to you.
Osotogary

top1371
09-10-03, 10:22 PM
They should teach you how to shoot left handed. I say should. But, I guess some DI's and PMI's may push for the old right hand. Offhand200 is our resident PMI and will be able to clarify this for us.

If you shoot left handed you will also use a brass deflector that will keep the brass from hitting you in the face when the shells are extracted... what fun if you dont have one:D

Caesar Augustus
09-10-03, 10:28 PM
lol yea i wouldnt want brass in the eye to cause me to fail to qualify. I guess I might just have to suck it up and learn right handed. I guess i could brag how I can shoot with a hand i cant do anything else with lol. thx for the reply. Whats the weather like in SD in jan feb and march? I heard its really rainy. I guess thats perfect weather for when we do night infiltration and other combat related activities.

Chain Breaker
09-11-03, 02:57 AM
So we have to learn to shoot with our right hand?


BTW, I am also left handed.

offhand200
09-12-03, 06:50 PM
Gentelmen,
I apologize for the delay I was out of town at a family funeral.
There's nothing wrong with your question Caesar. Teaching someone how to shoot left handed is no different than teaching them to shoot right handed. Your supposed to go by eye dominance, for instance there are many left handers who are right eye dominant so they shoot with their right hand. I'm not sure that I fully agree with this. Eye dominance can play a factor, I think that your character is going to have a lot to do with it. I'm right eye dominant and right handed, but I can shoot with my left hand as well. When you get to your first phase of marksmanship training your PMI will do an eye dominance test with you. If you are left handed and the PMI tells you, you should shoot with your right hand, then yes you will just have to suck it up.
I've never seen any left handed shooter get hit with brass ejecting, but you never know I guess. Anyway, the PMI's are highly skilled instructors, and no matter which hand you shoot with you will be tought how to do so properly. Does this answer your question?

Caesar Augustus
09-12-03, 07:10 PM
yes it does thank you. Also what is firing the SAW and M203 like. do they have a lot of recoil and are they hard to aim etc.
thx

top1371
09-12-03, 07:12 PM
I think my brain housing group was overheating when I said brass could kick out.... I must have been thinking about the A1's, when we had to use a brass deflector for leftys. I think the A2 has a nub (cant think of the correct term) that brass hits on it's way out...

offhand200
09-13-03, 09:37 PM
The M-249 SAW has about the same recoil as the M-16 because it fires the same round, however, because it fires on full auto, it feels a little stronger. The M-203 is a little like a 20 guage shot gun blast neither one has enough kick to cause any pain. Top your probably thinking of the housing around the foreward assist. I don't know what it's called. However, the manner in which the brass is ejected is usually sufficient enough to keep it from hitting the face of a left handed shooter.

Caesar Augustus
09-13-03, 10:02 PM
are there any other weps u fire at boot. What about MCT. I heard that you fire foreign weps also is that true?

03's Parent
09-14-03, 01:53 AM
Sgt. I thank you for your expetise. You or one of your coaches helped me fire expert at bootcamp!!!!!!!!!1

TMM54
09-14-03, 02:00 AM
Great work, giving these kids good advice. Keep up the great
work, Semper Fidelis, Tom Murray, SSGT USMC 1973-1984

Omega
09-14-03, 07:29 AM
I'd like to come prepared but I know alot of people gain bad habits while shooting as a civillian. would it benefit me more to practice shooting as a civillian with say an instructor. Or just wait until boot?

and as far as the m4 I think it has to do with the twist of the barrel being the reason for similar accuracy at distance.

By the way a friend of mine was a lefty but learned to shoot with his right hand when he joined the Marines. for several reasons one being the brass issue.

also once out of boot and onto infantry what is the Marines position on additions to weapons such as red dots, acog's, taclights, and lasers etc. or modifying such as triggers, barrels, etc. or is that pretty much for the spec ops community only.

Gear how much leeway do we get on what kind of gear we carry. what kind of boots we wear etc.

thanks in advance.

RoboRobinson17
09-14-03, 01:00 PM
I am right handed, but I shoot a rifle left handed. We were taught by our PMI that "eye dominance" was BS, but we could shoot whatever hand felt the most comfortable or would be effective. Keep in mind, Grassweek (where you "snap-in") is anything BUT comfortable. On patrol, we were taught if you are on the opposite side you shoot on (if you are on the left and you shoot left), simply switch on the way down. Weapons always outboard....

I got to tear down and clean a SAW for drill the other weekend. It is an awesome weapon just to hold...I can't wait to fire it!

Semper Fi,

Joe

MillRatUSMC
09-14-03, 06:40 PM
My point of view of why we fire in the sitting position.
It most resemble a tripod, and if bones suport the weapon instead of muscle.
Than the stacking of bones on bones in the sitting position, should give us a "stable" position.
A draw back on this position, it higher than prone making you a bigger target.
It's been interesting reading MCRP 3-01A.
I checked some my information on my page on marksmanship, the sight alignment and sight picture graphics show the "wings" that protect the front sight post, which I chose not to use in my graphics.
Because the focus should be on the front sight post in relationship to the target.
Maintain correct sight alignment and correct placenment on the target should result in the bullet striking the target in a correct manner.

http://www.geocities.com/millrat_99/marksmanship.html
My page on marksmanship.

I'm a old time Primary Marksmanship Instructor but I try stay current on the marksmanship of today.
Not much has changed since I taught at Edson Range in the year 1966.

Here's a page on the M4

http://www.mca-marines.org/Gazette/2002/02Dailey.html

From that page I see that the M4 is listed a carbine not as a rifle.

Semper Fidelis
Ricardo

PS
A 0311 Basic Infantry Marine, 0351 anti-tanks, 0369 Infantry Unit Leader, 8651 Recon Marine and 8531 Primary Marksmanship Instructor.
All related to the 0300 or Infantry field.
Some historial information, I fired at Camp Matthews during boot camp and I was a Primary Marksmanship Instructor at Edson Range, soon after it was designated as the marksmanship range for the Recruit Depot at San Diego, CA.
I fired the M1, Bowning Automatic Rifle (BAR) 3.5" rocket launcher, M60 Machine Gun, M3A1 Submachine Gun,.45 cal Pistol, M14 and the M16.
Fired one round from 106 Recoiless Rifle, thought half my face was blown, when that round fired.
Went from Private to Staff Sergeant in the Infantry.

Caesar Augustus
09-14-03, 07:32 PM
What else do you fire at Boot camp? What do you fire at MCT. DO you get to fire foreign weps or the M4a1?
thx

offhand200
09-14-03, 08:07 PM
Caesar,First: No you will not fire any foriegn weapons in MCT
Omega: I don't think it would be a good idea for you to shoot with a civilian instructor. The fact of the matter is, most people have their own opinion on how you should shoot a weapon. The advantage to the Marine Corps Marksmanship program is that we all teach everyone the same methods. Shooting with a different instructor before going to boot camp is what will most likeley cause those bad habbits.
Yes the rifleing twist on the M-4 is the same as the M-16 and that is the main reason for equivilent accuracy.
I don't know the reasons why your friend had to shoot right handed, but I do know that the brass is NOT A FACTOR in shooting left handed, it simply does not hit you in the face. I suppose that it could possibly but I have never seen it happen.
Things such as Acogs, Tac Lights and the such can be used but you would have to take them off before turning your weapon into the armory. Those types of equipment are only issued to spec ops, so you would have to provide your own.
As far as modifications to your weapon such as trigger, or anything else having to do with changing the weapon in a semi permanent way (I say semipermanent because it can be changed back) however, it is ILLEAGAL to make any modifications to your service rifle 1. if you are not a Marine Corps certified armorer, and 2. without permission from your commanding officer.
Most units require that their Marines use the gear that is issued to them, however some units will allow you to use customized gear as long as it is with in regulation.

offhand200
09-14-03, 08:15 PM
Two quick things Millrat.
1. You want to avoid stacking bones on bones you want to stack bone on muscle.
EG: In the sitting position the foreward elbow should be placed in the pocket of the foreward knee, this pocket is created by the calve muscle of the lower leg and the thigh muscle of the upper leg.
EG: In the kneeling position the foreward elbow should rest slightly in front of the foreward knee. This automatically causes the flat lower portion of the Tricep muscle to rest on top of the knee.
2. I would have to disagree with you not showing the wings that protect the front sight post. Although they have absolutley nothing to do with the aiming process, they will be there when you look through the sights of the M-16 (as I know you are aware) if someone knows nothing about marksmanship or the aiming process, when they see a graphic showing only a front sight and no wings, what will their reaction be when they look through the actual sights of the M-16.

offhand200
09-14-03, 08:22 PM
Something else Millrat:
The information on one of your websights about Marksmanship intstruction.
Some of the information is good, but the methods you used to teach, are very much outdated. I hope that statement is not offensive, because I don't mean it to be. I'm simply saying that we use very much different wording than what I am reading on your websight. I understand you have been reading th 3-01A but the methods of instruction are not outlined in that Manual. The only reason I bring this up is because I don't want these new poolees to be confused, so perhaps you and I could get the oppertunity to update your instructional manual so the DINKS :)
will have a better understanding of the terminology they will hear when they actually go to boot camp.
give me your thoughts on this idea

Caesar Augustus
09-14-03, 08:32 PM
thx offhand What usually causes someone to fail to qual. Also what is usually the hardest thing to learn about marksmanship? How do you teach someone how to aquire moving targets at undetermined range and how much harder is this?
thx:D

offhand200
09-16-03, 06:15 PM
There are only two things that will cause someone to fail to qualify.
1. Not paying attention to what you are taught
2. Not applying what you are taught

As long as you listen, and apply you will qualify without any problems.
Shooting at moving targets is a bit of an animal all in it'self, I could explain it to you on here, but I won't for three reasons
First. There are different methods to engaging moving targets for different types of weapons systems. Next. You will learn plenty about engaging moving targets throughout your time in the Marine Corps, including boot camp. Finally, there is a lot involved with each weapon system and I don't think I can type that long, besides that some of the information must be demonstrated. Don't get ahead of yourself though. You will learn all of that in due time. In the mean time, you will want your focus to be on the type of marksmanship you must master in order to graduate from boot camp.

03Infantry
09-16-03, 06:20 PM
The thing our coach stressed was DON"T MOVE. When you shoot let yourself move back with the little kick of the rifle. Don't try to counter it or you could throw the round off target. There is only point in a plane of points that the round could exit at to hit the target. Also relax. If you have any tension in your body it will cause you to shake and then you will move. Relax and DON'T MOVE AT ALL!!!!!!!!!!!!

RoboRobinson17
09-16-03, 06:35 PM
I sang Lynyrd Skynyrds' "Free Bird" while I was on the firing line for qual and prequal. It relaxes you and takes your mind off of the pressure. The Marines who were nearby didn't mind as long as I didn't sing too loud.....but then again, my DI walked by and told me to shut the h3ll up!

Semper Fi,

Joe

03Infantry
09-16-03, 07:00 PM
relax too. The coaches on the rifle range are cool. They are all former 03's so they are good to go. You shoot so much you have to try to go unqualified. You will shoot all week before you try to qual.

Caesar Augustus
09-16-03, 07:16 PM
how hard is it to get expert. how many in your plt got expert?

03Infantry
09-16-03, 07:38 PM
Alot of us got expert. It is not that hard to get expert. Just don't move, relax and shoot. Our companies average (611 recruits) was expert. The coaches will help you alot and unless you don't pay attention you should shoot expert.

Caesar Augustus
09-16-03, 07:46 PM
well thats reasuring. I wanna say that I could've qualed for sniper in any branch because the Marines require more j/k. I just wanna graduate from boot camp anything else is gravy! What was it like throwin nades and stuff. was it kinda nerve racking?

03Infantry
09-16-03, 08:03 PM
Hey dawg you no longer throw grenades in boot( that sucks). You only shoot the m16a2. Some of the coaches on the rifle range are snipers- they are crazy. Graduate from bootcamp but shoot for the best on everything- swim qual, shooting, pft, prac, it will help for future promotions!!

Caesar Augustus
09-16-03, 09:05 PM
yea my pft should be good as long as i can get my crunches up. i keep doing those leg throws with my frined to help build up strength. I cant swim(i know it sad but I almost drowned when i was like 3 trying to learn so never tried again) how hard was swim week? How hard is it to get a high swim class?

03Infantry
09-17-03, 02:04 AM
To get a high swim class it is hard. But to qualifiy it is easy. Don't wait to learn. Learn now and it will make it easy. Don't really worry about crunches. Everyone in my platoon left bootcamp doing at least 200 in 2 minutes. Crunches are the easiest to improve on.

Caesar Augustus
09-17-03, 08:15 AM
thats good to hear about the crunches. yea i'm gonna go to my friends and learn to swim in his pool. damn i hate the water.

Chain Breaker
09-17-03, 08:25 AM
But, your gona be a Marine?
You got the change that.

Good luck.

Caesar Augustus
09-17-03, 10:25 AM
yea i know its not that i hate the water its just that I dont prefer to be in the water forever. I also believe the Marines will help me get rid of that apprehension

RoboRobinson17
09-17-03, 10:51 AM
My best advice is to join the local Ymca swim class. You don't want to hit those yellow footprints being an "Iron Duck"....its just not pretty. On the range you will have a book you record every shot in. DO NOT CALCULATE YOUR SCORE! I pulled pits with a Recruit from another platoon that did this, and said he shot expert everyday. Guess what? He went unk on qual day; he failed. He figured he shot so good that he didn't have to try....I just pray I don't share a fightin' hole with him.....in the words of his series commander, "Can we say Dominoes delivers"?

Semper Fi,

Joe

Caesar Augustus
09-17-03, 12:56 PM
why would you not try your best anyday at boot camp. and why would you try to calculate your score.

Lake0300
09-17-03, 01:05 PM
I think we'll both understand that one when we get their, eh?

03Infantry
09-17-03, 03:19 PM
The Marines WILL definitly help you with that water thing. Hey is right. Don't calculate your score. We had guys that did that and that shot expert till qual day, then they barely shot marksman. Just relax and say to yourself, "I'm only going to shoot the black." Also think of the black as someone shooting back at you. Shoot him before he shoots you.

ONE SHOT ONE KILL READY TO DIE BUT NEVER WILL

offhand200
09-17-03, 04:39 PM
03infantry seems to have a pretty good grasp on what boot camp is all about. It's all pretty simple gents, if you listen, and ask questions you will learn. If you just pretend to listen, you will struggle. The best way to learn about something you don't know or understand is to ask someone who does. This is a simple philosophy in life that many people can't seem to grasp. Anything is within your grasp, you simply have to use the tools available to you. Such as this web sight. I'm thrilled to get as many questions as I have been. The more you prepare for boot camp now the less you will struggle when you get there.

offhand200
09-17-03, 04:43 PM
Problems with Marksmanship can always be traced back to fundamentals. The number one fundamental that is an absolute must in shooting for qualification is PMA Positive Mental Attitude. You will learn in boot camp that shooting is 98% mental and only 2% physical, which tells you that it is only as challenging as you make it. There are no physical limitations that will keep you from being able to qualify on the rifle, but mentally, you can go unq before you ever get to boot camp. Remember that.

03Infantry
09-17-03, 05:38 PM
Listen to the Sgt. That is almost exactly what they said on the rifle range. LISTEN TO the coaches. The guys that didn't are the ones we had go unqualified.

Caesar Augustus
09-17-03, 08:02 PM
I know that it really simple but its still interesting to ask about it and i'm sure 03 is really excited about telling us about boot camp:D

chrisgjeans
10-02-03, 08:47 PM
In reference to Sgt. Chapmans post I would just like to add my 2 cents. My name is Lcpl. Jeans. I am a reservist tow gunner(0352)
Now some of yall might say what does a reservist know about bieng a grunt? Well, I got home in mid July from Iraq. I did a 6 month tour with 1st Tnk Bn, Tow Plt. Anyone considering going into the grunts, I will tell you this. There is nothing harder, but yet more rewarding. It is challenging mentally and physically, it is time away from family, friends, and all your other day to day pleasures but at the end of each day you wouldnt want it any other way. Goodluck to all, and I hope that you poolees enjoy sleeping under the stars!

Semper Fi!

Lcpl. Jeans
4th Tnk Bn
H&S Co. Tow Plt

Caesar Augustus
10-02-03, 08:58 PM
Why would anyone think you didnt know anything. You're a Marine so who cares if you're a reservist. A Marine is a Marine and anyone who'd disrepect you because you're a reservist is a piece of

CPLRapoza
10-02-03, 11:39 PM
Ooh-Rah on what your doing with these Poolees, my expertise is knowledge in MC History, so I've had these future Devildogs on scavanger hunt looking for the stuff. I'm also a grunt, but in a POG position at the moment, God it sucks. It's nothing what I thought the MSG program would be like, but it has it's rewards.

Anyway, back to my question. I'm just curious as how do you get picked to be the PMI for recruit training, does that go to the top of the class following grad. from PMI school, and why are y'all allowed to wear campaign covers vise the safari covers. Just curious is all and when I get back to the fleet I have a feeling that will be we're I'm FAPed out to, either the range or PMO, God I hope it not PMO.

Mudwalker
10-25-03, 10:09 AM
Cpl Rap,

I can answer that one for you. First, the reason PMI's wear the campaign cover is that it is tradition. Back in the day the campaign cover was standard issue and once it was phased out it was carried over to the marksmanship field. Contrary to popular belief, Drill Instructors are not the only ones authorized to wear it. I am not certain, but I believe that marksmanship instructors have worn it longer than DI's. I can speak for Parris Island as far as becoming a PMI. First you have to serve your time as a coach and if you do well at that and show a desire to be a PMI they may send you to the PMI course. Once you pass that you start teaching recruits. Hope this helps. Semper Fi.

offhand200
11-03-03, 07:55 AM
First let me appologize for not sending any replies recently. I am currently going through Small Arms Weapons Instructors Course in Quantico VA.
Cpl Rapoza.
If you want to be a PMI for recruit training you simply request to go to Edson Range, Camp Pendleton, or to the Rifle range at PI. Keep in mind though. WFTBn for both the East an West coast teaches more than the rifle range. So when you get there you need to ask them to put you on the range.

offhand200
11-03-03, 07:59 AM
I'd like to add a note to What mudwalker said. Once they began to phase out the Campaign cover the only Marines that were authorized to wear it were the Marine Corps shooting team. Somewhere along the way they decided that all Marksmanship instructors should wear it (being as the Shooting teams primary mission is supposed to be to teach marksmanship) then someone decided that the Drill Instructors should wear it as well. I'm not sure why on that one but I'll try to find out.
Mudwalker,
I noticed you live in Fredericksburg. That's interesting I just happen to be staying with a friend in spotsylvania a couple miles away.

alanUSMCDEP03
11-10-03, 12:31 PM
I am going into Security Forces, which is an Infantry MOS. After 2 years though, I'm going to be assigned to a regular infantry battalion. What does the infantry do all day on a regular day when the're not out killing?

SGTDBG0411
11-10-03, 01:54 PM
LOOK OUT ALANUSMCDEP03
1ST YOU MUST COMPLETE BASIC RECRUIT TRAINING.SO YOU BETTER GET IN SHAPE NOW AND WORRY ABOUT THE FUTRE LATER. THERE IS MORE TO BEING A MARINE THAN KILLING. IF YOU GET A CHANCE GO TO CAMP LEJEUNE AND FIND ANY OF THE INFANTRY BATTALION HEADQUARTERS AND SPEAK TO SOME OF THE MARINES THERE. THEY CAN GIVE YOU FIRST HAND KNOWLEDGE OF WHAT THEY DO FROM DAY TO DAY

offhand200
11-12-03, 07:21 AM
Sgtdbg is right, you need to make it throught boot camp first. As far as day to day things it's going to vary, do like he said go by an infantry Bn, and ask them what they do.

WolfA4
11-14-03, 04:07 AM
ah im new here. but i would love to go by an infantry Bn and ask my self but well i live in new york city, not many infantry Bn's around here that i know of, so i would personally appriciate if someone could answer the question on what do infantry soldiers do day to day?

offhand200
11-14-03, 12:28 PM
For starters NEVER Call a Marine A soldier. As far as what they do day to day, it varies depending on where they are in the training cycle and what unit you are with.

alanUSMCDEP03
11-18-03, 12:22 PM
I would like to know how the lifestyle at SOI is. Is it just about like bootcamp, where you have no freedom, and you can't do anything. I want to know how sucky SOI is, and also, do grunts work regular hour days when at their bases, or they work more than other Marines that don't have a 0311 mos?

SGTDBG0411
11-18-03, 01:36 PM
LOOK OUT ALANDEP03
IF YOU THINK SOI IS SUCKY THEN YOU BETTER RECONSIDER JOINING MY BELOVED MARINE CORPS. YOU ARE STARTING TO SOUND LIKE A S**TBIRD AND YOU ARE NOT GOING TO KNOW WHAT HAPPENS UNTIL YOU LIVE IT YOURSELF SOMEDAY. BEING A MARINE IS A TOUGH JOB IN ITSELF SO FORGET ABOUT KILLING ON A REGULAR DAILY BASIS BECAUSE IT JUST DOES NOT HAPPEN, NO MATTER WHAT YOUR MOS IS. THE WORD MARINE CARRIES A LOT OF RESPECT AND HONOR. NOT EVERYBODY CAN BE A MARINE SO REMEMBER THAT AS YOU ARE GOING THROUGH RECRUIT TRAINING
REMEMBER ALL THE NON-HACKERS THAT DID NOT MAKE IT.WILL YOU BE ONE OF THOSE NON-HACKERS? YOU CAN PM ME ANY TIME IF YOU REALLY WANT TO TALK. MY DOOR IS ALWAYS WELCOME TO ALL OF YOU THAT WANT TO LEARN. ROGER OUT:marine:

MAJMike
11-18-03, 05:07 PM
Poolee:

You are getting excellent advice from the sergeants. I would strongly suggest that you take to heart what they are telling you. IF you earn the title, MARINE, you will find that the sergeants and Staff NCOs are the back-bone of the Corps.

I would also suggest that you quit worrying about who, what, where or when. There are no "magic bullets" when it comes to recruit training or SOI. An important part of the process is not knowing what is going to happen next minute, next hour, next day or next week. There's no scuttlebutt, scoop, skinny, intel or whatever that's going to give you the inside track. However you picture it in your mind, it is going to be different. What you do not understand today is that not knowing is part of the training proccess. Take the Sergeant's advice and spend your time getting your body in shape. Your drill instructors will get your mind in shape when you get there.

MR Ventura
MAJ USMCR
1968-1975

TracGunny
11-18-03, 06:31 PM
Cpl Rap/Mudwalker:

FYI: I got this from an Internet search, still need to verify. Although, it does jive with what I heard during my time on the grinder.

There is one distinction that separates a Drill Instructor from all other Marines...the "Smokey" cover. Wearing it is part of the prestige that comes with training recruits, but it wasn't always limited to DI's.

The history of the "Smokey" dates back to 1859, according to Dr. Stephen Wise, a Parris Island Museum curator. All Marines at that time wore only two covers: A dress cover and a Civil War-type "kepi" undress cover. Although the "kepi" didn't even remotely resemble the cover Drill Instructors wear today, it was replaced by the "Smokey's" close cousin - the Campaign Hat.

The Campaign Hat, which resembled a cowboy hat, was introduced in 1898 to protect Marines from the sun and rain. It was worn in the field and in garrison, when ordered. A slit down the center made the top slouch, so it was often called a "Slouch Hat."

In 1912, the Marine Corps replaced the Campaign Cover with the style of cover Drill Instructors wear today - the Field Hat. Many Drill Instructors mistakenly call the Field Hat a Campaign Cover. This cover was distinctive because it was the first American style hat. Up to this point, the Marine Corps had patterned uniforms after other countries. This cover was worn by all Marines, not just Drill Instructors.

During World War II, the need to cut back on expenses made it necessary to discontinue some of the leather parts of the uniform. The Field Hat was one of the first to go in May 1942.

After the war, gunners at Weapons Training Battalion were authorized to wear the Field Hat. In 1956, however, the felt version "Smokey" was returned to Drill Instructors' wardrobes. This mark of distinction has now become tradition.

Quinbo
07-12-07, 09:34 PM
I wore the pith helmet while serving in Diego Garcia and also wore the campaign cover while training young lieutenants how to shoot at Quantico. I was never a Drill instructor.

Fubar5812
07-13-07, 04:41 PM
check out the dates on these posts,2003.

alaskan03
07-16-07, 10:06 PM
:usmc:Prepare to be wet.
CR DEINES
0369 72-82

Andrew Walle
04-01-13, 04:52 PM
Hey Marines I never have shot before or don't know anything about guns but I am going in infantry do you think I should be fine? How should I get ready for ITB and bootcamp shooting?

Rocky C
04-01-13, 05:04 PM
You will be taught everything you need to know...

Andrew Walle
04-01-13, 06:22 PM
Lisa thank you for correcting me, was using the voice input because I was rushing so yeah, I am sorry about that. And Rocky thank you.

Rocky C
04-01-13, 06:31 PM
Your welcome.

You do know this thread is almost 10 years old right ???

Andrew Walle
04-01-13, 08:12 PM
Yes haha almost 10 years old, I was on google and I saw it, I read some of it and saw it was Leatherneck so I thought I'd throw in a reply.

Rocky C
04-02-13, 05:36 PM
Nice,

You brought it back from the dead :).

doc h fmf
04-10-13, 12:58 PM
You will do okay andrew, iwas a corpsman with the fmf, i learned about the weapons in field medical service school. My plt sgt, sgt company gunny everyone help ed meand i qualified . So if a corpsman can you can goodluck my friend stephen doc hansen hm3 fmf

Nicholas Wamold
04-20-13, 11:02 PM
I know this thread is really old but I saw something on some pictures of recruits at the firing range with scopes and I didn't know if this was a mistake or did they stopped using iron sights?

Andrew Walle
04-28-13, 03:46 AM
I think at bootcamp they use iron sights and at MCT/ITB they use ACOG.

Nicholas Wamold
05-07-13, 11:41 PM
My recruiter told me last week they all switched to the ACOG rifle scope even in Recruit Training. You are issued the normal handle-grip with iron sights + ACOG scope.

aSecondratehero
05-28-13, 11:41 PM
Any Marines fresh from boot can correct me, but within the last two years they have completely gotten rid of the use of iron sights at Recruit Training. The Marines Corps has deemed them obsolete and one of my station's returning Marines has said that once you hit grass week and go to the firing range, you equip your RCO and proceed as normal with snapping in and stuff like that.

mccmuffin
06-13-13, 09:18 AM
You are correect my son graduated 31MAY13 and he received his RCO when they moved to the range and kept it until family day.The acog is also equiped with iron sights on top of the optical.Very cool peice of equipment.