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View Full Version : Shootout in Toledo Bar



jetdawgg
10-12-09, 08:27 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o_-OIYCl86M

Wyoming
10-12-09, 08:32 AM
Watching this on Fox.

Makes me wonder where the videos of the police are and how long did it take for them to show up.

Trucrimsongold
10-12-09, 09:22 AM
It took them exactly a few seconds over 5 minutes to show up.
Its just amazing those morons didn't kill or seriously injure someone.
It also shows how utterly brazen those thug drug dealers can be shooting even from the outside during the lull of gunfire. Im just glad the management inside didn't run out of ammo or they would be dead because those thugs would have come back in and finished what they started. Maybe now management will forgoe the handgun and keep an M4 or a shotgun behind the bar.

Wyoming
10-12-09, 11:16 AM
Yeah, but no photo of the LEO's arrival and visit!

BR34
10-12-09, 11:22 AM
What gets me about these situations is that all those rounds fired, at less than 20 feet and not a single person was hit.

I remember taking a shooting class a while back and the instructor told us a story about a couple guys on an elevator that got into a firefight. 25 rounds later neither of them were hit. Story might not be true but it's serves it's purpose.

I feel so much better about my weapons training when I see things like this.

Supersquishy
10-12-09, 11:46 AM
LOL! The Wild west is coming back!

FistFu68
10-12-09, 12:08 PM
:beer: The Bartender should have grabbed a bottle of 151,made a hasty Molotov Cocktail and threw it in that area by the Hallway,Crispy Critters in an Instant :D :thumbup:

Wyoming
10-12-09, 12:14 PM
:beer: The Bartender should have grabbed a bottle of 151,made a hasty Molotov Cocktail and threw it in that area by the Hallway,Crispy Critters in an Instant :D :thumbup:

Sheeit Jack, they were all in this together.

Wyoming
10-12-09, 12:17 PM
What gets me about these situations is that all those rounds fired, at less than 20 feet and not a single person was hit.

I remember taking a shooting class a while back and the instructor told us a story about a couple guys on an elevator that got into a firefight. 25 rounds later neither of them were hit. Story might not be true but it's serves it's purpose.

I feel so much better about my weapons training when I see things like this.

Instead of little plink plinks, me thinks they should have had one of these -

NoRemorse
10-12-09, 12:31 PM
What gets me about these situations is that all those rounds fired, at less than 20 feet and not a single person was hit.

I remember taking a shooting class a while back and the instructor told us a story about a couple guys on an elevator that got into a firefight. 25 rounds later neither of them were hit. Story might not be true but it's serves it's purpose.

I feel so much better about my weapons training when I see things like this.

I hear stories of lackadasical training or improper training. I can't remember where he stories allegedly occured but there was one or a series of them regarding people drawing their pistol and firing off nearly every round as they were trying to sweep the pistol up and level with the target.

The real horror story happened I believe somewhere in PA or possibly out in Chi-Town, I'll have to ask later. On the range the range master decided that he wanted a clean range so he'd have the officers dump shell casings from their revolvers into their hands so he wouldn't have brass all over the place.

Two such officers had to use their weapons in the line of duty and both were found dead. Because of the range master's policy they had acted in a firefight the way they were training. Instead of dumping the cylinder and chucking a speed loader back in they were found dead with shell casings in their hands.

Muscle memory is a b1tch.

BR34
10-12-09, 01:22 PM
I've heard similar stories from cops, about other cops shooting people, then policing their brass afterward, leaving a mess for the CSIs to figure out.

Osotogary
10-12-09, 01:50 PM
BR34- <br />
Along time ago in O.S.S. land (Grand daddy of the C.I.A.), there was a gentleman by the name of Col. Rex Applegate. He trained allied special forces in close-quarter combat during World War...

Zulu 36
10-12-09, 02:07 PM
I hear stories of lackadasical training or improper training. I can't remember where he stories allegedly occured but there was one or a series of them regarding people drawing their pistol and firing off nearly every round as they were trying to sweep the pistol up and level with the target.

The real horror story happened I believe somewhere in PA or possibly out in Chi-Town, I'll have to ask later. On the range the range master decided that he wanted a clean range so he'd have the officers dump shell casings from their revolvers into their hands so he wouldn't have brass all over the place.

Two such officers had to use their weapons in the line of duty and both were found dead. Because of the range master's policy they had acted in a firefight the way they were training. Instead of dumping the cylinder and chucking a speed loader back in they were found dead with shell casings in their hands.

Muscle memory is a b1tch.

I believe you are thinking of the Newhall, CA Incident in April 1970. Four California HP officers died in a gunfight there. There were a number of procedural and training changes that came out of the incident, among them were in firearms training, felony stop tactics, and equipment.

At least one of the dead officers was found with expended ammunition in his right front pocket, a carry-over from range training when recruits were taught to dump expended ammo into the hands and put the brass in their pockets or a brass can nearby. This was not an unusual police range practice throughout the United States at the time and I'm sure there were other similar incidents.

That practice stopped (at least in the CHP) immediately. Also, the officers did not have speed loaders, but instead had loops. That too changed, although many U.S. officers still carried loops for their revolvers for years afterward. I usually carried two speed-loaders and a 6-round loop (for tactical reloading of two or three rounds).

When I went through the academy, fired brass got dumped on the ground and policed later. Of course when almost everyone went to semi-autos, dumping brass became a moot point, but we still had to stress dumping empty magazines. Only partly-empty mags were kept during a tactical reload.

Also, for many years, stand-up straight one-handed aimed pistol shooting was the normally taught technique. However, when the fit hit the shan and everyone's fight-or-flight syndrome blew up your fine muscle control, this shooting technique left much to be desired. It led to the development of different one-handed and two-handed combat shooting techniques. Their refined brethren are taught today in police academies and CQB schools.

I was told of a 1960s-era gunfight between a Michigan State Police trooper and a bad guy, literally over the hood of the trooper' scout car. Bad guy fired six shots and missed, trooper fired five and missed. Bad guy, out of ammo, turned and ran.

The trooper, now was able to assume his trained pistol shooting stance and slotted the bad guy in the back of the head with his last shot. BTW, the trooper was supposed to have been one of the MSP's shooting team members. Modern CQB training might have ended that gunfight after the first couple of police shots.

Knowing what I know now about police/CQB firearms training over the years and human psycho-physiological reaction to extreme stress (like a gunfight), I believe that gunfight story to be quite probably true.

NoRemorse
10-12-09, 02:15 PM
Thanks for the clarification, Sgt. I may have completely futzed which area of the country it occured it but the seminar was out West so I could have been projecting myself back home.

I believe the story was placed in the 70's as well and I'm merely assuming speed-loaders were involved.

I think as of a few years ago we were hearing of officers in local PDs who would empty their service pistols as they swept up towards the target; this was only reported to happen under stressful situations. Anyways, that was the scoop we got as Auxiliary POs in NYC. Since then there's been a lot of myth regarding the way officers are trained to use their service pistols.

Zulu 36
10-12-09, 02:18 PM
I've heard similar stories from cops, about other cops shooting people, then policing their brass afterward, leaving a mess for the CSIs to figure out.

People fight as they train. This is a truism anyone who has been in real combat knows for a fact. "OK, shooting is over, time to police the brass." In military combat, this isn't so bad, for police it is tampering with a crime scene. At the academy I taught at, brass was not policed until the end of the day and then only on order.

Another point about ejected brass at crime scenes. Unlike the CSI TV shows, the resting point of ejected brass tells very little accurate information as to the exact location of the shooter and the direction of their shots.

As you know from experience, brass bounces all over, especially on hard surfaces (common in police shootings), where it goes also depends on the angle of the firearm (ejection port straight up and down, or turned 90-degrees like Hollywood gangstas do it), makes a big difference in where that brass is going to land. Was the shooter tracking and firing at a moving target? Brass won't land in a neat pile in those cases. High winds, rain, accumulated snow, ice, bouncing off objects (walls, cars, trees, people), people moving actively through the scene during the incident, kicking brass about accidentally, etc.

Also, different semi-auto guns eject brass differently. If you don't know what model gun was shooting, a pile of brass could mean very little except at least that many shots of x-caliber ammo were fired from that general location, possibly in y-general direction. Yes, ballistics people can later often tell what model gun was used through firing pin, extractor and ejector marks, but even that isn't infallible.

Zulu 36
10-12-09, 02:25 PM
Thanks for the clarification, Sgt. I may have completely futzed which area of the country it occured it but the seminar was out West so I could have been projecting myself back home.

I believe the story was placed in the 70's as well and I'm merely assuming speed-loaders were involved.

I think as of a few years ago we were hearing of officers in local PDs who would empty their service pistols as they swept up towards the target; this was only reported to happen under stressful situations. Anyways, that was the scoop we got as Auxiliary POs in NYC. Since then there's been a lot of myth regarding the way officers are trained to use their service pistols.

At the academy I taught at and at my department, we did not teach officers to draw and sweep their pistols up. It was pull from holster just enough, then thrust forward toward the target as though you were going to bayonet the f*cker.

All the crap of people sweeping their pistols up and down is the mark of a very poorly trained person. Once again, something often seen on TV and movies (reason: it keeps the actor's face and the gun both in frame). It has no basis in reality, yet people take what they see in make-believe land and try to apply it in real you're-gonna-die-if-you-don't-get-this-right-land.

Zulu 36
10-12-09, 02:52 PM
I had the honor of meeting Col Applegate in 1997, about a year before his death. He was still sharp as a tack mentally (though walking slow with a cane or riding an electric wheelchair). A Gentleman...