View Full Version : Gold Chevrons
MotherGoose
09-17-09, 09:35 AM
I tried to search threads for any previous info on this subject, even googled it, but couldn't seem to find the answer.
I encountered a reserve Marine wearing his dress blue trousers/khaki shirt and gold chevrons on his collar.... I've never seen gold chevrons worn like this.... is that authorized? I ask because he is seeking help with some training, and there has been some inconsistencies with his stories and he has yet to provide a DD214 to me. He also told me over the phone that he was a GySgt, and he showed up with Sgt chevrons.... I am taking the benefit of the doubt that perhaps I heard him wrong over the phone, but since I don't get many current or former GySgt's in my office, I was really looking forward to meeting him.
thewookie
09-17-09, 09:42 AM
Me, I'd call his bluff on the rank thing - as you know, there's a BIG difference between a Gunnery Sergeant of Marines and a Sergeant of Marines. Call him on it, and make him show you the DD214. If he is a Marine he will understand, and should appreciate it.
I can't ever remember seeing gold chevrons on a Khaki uniform. I'm not the expert when it comes to uniform regs, but. If it smells odd, then it usually is.
I tried to search threads for any previous info on this subject, even googled it, but couldn't seem to find the answer.
I encountered a reserve Marine wearing his dress blue trousers/khaki shirt and gold chevrons on his collar.... I've never seen gold chevrons worn like this.... is that authorized? I ask because he is seeking help with some training, and there has been some inconsistencies with his stories and he has yet to provide a DD214 to me. He also told me over the phone that he was a GySgt, and he showed up with Sgt chevrons.... I am taking the benefit of the doubt that perhaps I heard him wrong over the phone, but since I don't get many current or former GySgt's in my office, I was really looking forward to meeting him.
Lisa 23
09-17-09, 10:05 AM
Sounds like a poser to me.
Just a suggestion...if he comes in the office again, I'd ask if I could have a pic taken with him just because....then, like wookie said, call his bluff on the rank and make him show you his DD214.
Personally, I have never seen those chevrons worn in that manner. I have only seen them worn on the cooks uniforms and possibly on Marines that wore coveralls (I am not sure about that one though).
I would play dumb and say "Ive been out for a while, looks like they have changed some of the uniform regs around, mind if I get a picture? The new combonation looks pretty cool!"
And then put it out there for the world (us) to see and judge!
thewookie
09-17-09, 10:23 AM
A good thing about getting a picture in uniform is IF the POS is a poser, then that photo can be very good evidence to hammer him under the Stolen Valor Act.
Lisa 23
09-17-09, 10:25 AM
I did find these on ebay and http://www.vanguardmil.com/store/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=3_257_263
http://militarywired.com/shopping/images/vanguard/00000003458840_MED.jpg
thewookie
09-17-09, 10:32 AM
Gold or annodized cheverons are out there, I have a set for my shadow box that I got from Sgt. Grit's site. But, like was previously stated usually you see cooks and those who wear coveralls wearing them. But in Khaki's, I dunno.
Mess duty we had to take a chevron and soak it in brasso then scrub with a wool blanket. They're made out of brass and you are just rubbing the paint off. Anyway we put the polished chevron on our paper hat to wear with our ice cream suit.
My knee jerk response is army chevrons. They wear shiney ones on their class C's.
MotherGoose
09-17-09, 11:08 AM
Those are all good ideas, I am going to ask him about it. I didn't ask at the time, because I figured it was a new uniform regulation or such and decided I'd check it out on my own.
Bulkyer, funny you mention that because he says he was in the Army from 88-94. Don't have a DD214 on that either yet... he can't get any funding until he provides a DD214 so there's no worry there, I'll keep you posted on what I find out. Thanks everyone!!
Lisa 23
09-17-09, 11:18 AM
All military personnel carry their military ID card on them at all times.....how about asking for that also.
Those are all good ideas, I am going to ask him about it. I didn't ask at the time, because I figured it was a new uniform regulation or such and decided I'd check it out on my own.
Bulkyer, funny you mention that because he says he was in the Army from 88-94. Don't have a DD214 on that either yet... he can't get any funding until he provides a DD214 so there's no worry there, I'll keep you posted on what I find out. Thanks everyone!!
What kind of funding is this "poser" applying for?
drillinstructor
09-17-09, 12:45 PM
This is the only time these chevrons are authorized for wear.....
>Ch 5 b. Blue Dress Sweater. Gold-plated (brushed brass) metal insignia of the design illustrated in figure 4-9 will be worn centered vertically on each shoulder strap of the blue dress sweater, single point inboard, and placed so that it is equidistant from the front and rear edges of the shoulder straps with the lowest point of the insignia's outer edge 3/4 inch from the armhole seam.
thewookie
09-17-09, 01:07 PM
This is the only time these chevrons are authorized for wear.....
>Ch 5 b. Blue Dress Sweater. Gold-plated (brushed brass) metal insignia of the design illustrated in figure 4-9 will be worn centered vertically on each shoulder strap of the blue dress sweater, single point inboard, and placed so that it is equidistant from the front and rear edges of the shoulder straps with the lowest point of the insignia's outer edge 3/4 inch from the armhole seam.
Houston - I think we have a problem,,, nice follow-up, Master Sergeant.
0331 2 0369
09-17-09, 01:15 PM
Even if he is/was a reservist and EAS'ed, why would he be in any uniform? Especially jacked up like that and wearing Sgt chevrons. Should have b!tch slapped him right then and there followed up by a little MCMAP training.
MotherGoose
09-17-09, 01:24 PM
What kind of funding is this "poser" applying for?
Indiana has a program for Purple Heart recipients in which they can apply for the program and once their information is verified, can receive free tuition, fees, and books (up to 126 credit hours) at any Indiana state college or university. So yes, he is also claiming that he has received the purple heart. I left a voicemail and hope to hear from him soon to see what is going on. I can't imagine that a person would go to such extreme lengths to pose as a Marine and then risk getting caught by coming to a government office for assistance... but if he is posing, then he isn't smart to begin with. I am hopeful there is just some big miscommunication... but those gold chevrons... just made me start wondering...
MotherGoose
09-17-09, 01:27 PM
This is the only time these chevrons are authorized for wear.....
>Ch 5 b. Blue Dress Sweater. Gold-plated (brushed brass) metal insignia of the design illustrated in figure 4-9 will be worn centered vertically on each shoulder strap of the blue dress sweater, single point inboard, and placed so that it is equidistant from the front and rear edges of the shoulder straps with the lowest point of the insignia's outer edge 3/4 inch from the armhole seam.
Thank you MSgt! I knew it did not seem right. The plot thickens.
0331 2 0369
09-17-09, 01:28 PM
Indiana has a program for Purple Heart recipients in which they can apply for the program and once their information is verified, can receive free tuition, fees, and books (up to 126 credit hours) at any Indiana state college or university. So yes, he is also claiming that he has received the purple heart. I left a voicemail and hope to hear from him soon to see what is going on. I can't imagine that a person would go to such extreme lengths to pose as a Marine and then risk getting caught by coming to a government office for assistance... but if he is posing, then he isn't smart to begin with. I am hopeful there is just some big miscommunication... but those gold chevrons... just made me start wondering...
Was he wearing ribbons when he came in? Did anyone pull his name up to see if he did in fact recieve the Purple Heart? They keep a pretty tight record of the people that recieved the award.
0331 2 0369
09-17-09, 01:31 PM
Here's how this needs to be handled...... Tell him that he is approved but I am his case worker. He needs to come to Quantico Virginia for the final paper work and to recieve his check. Tell him his travel will be reimbursed once he arrives here. I will meet him at the gate and escort him to the back side of Quantico, by Lake Lunga, where I work and that will be the end of it. Never seen or heard from again.:D
thewookie
09-17-09, 01:38 PM
Sooooo, many stories of posers doing things that would blow your mind,,,so walking into your office and putting himself in harms way by doing so wouldn't surprise me. If it's so....
http://www.moaa.org/todaysofficer/military/fake_heroes.asp
http://www.pownetwork.org/phonies/phonies1053.htm
http://www.myfoxphoenix.com/dpp/news/only_on_fox/fake_marine_07_06_2009
http://www.stolenvalor.com/
Indiana has a program for Purple Heart recipients in which they can apply for the program and once their information is verified, can receive free tuition, fees, and books (up to 126 credit hours) at any Indiana state college or university. So yes, he is also claiming that he has received the purple heart. I left a voicemail and hope to hear from him soon to see what is going on. I can't imagine that a person would go to such extreme lengths to pose as a Marine and then risk getting caught by coming to a government office for assistance... but if he is posing, then he isn't smart to begin with. I am hopeful there is just some big miscommunication... but those gold chevrons... just made me start wondering...
Definately sounds like a case of the stolen valor act... that is assuming he is actually a poser.... maybe he was way out of uniform... either way, an @ss chewing is warranted...
MotherGoose
09-17-09, 01:42 PM
Was he wearing ribbons when he came in? Did anyone pull his name up to see if he did in fact recieve the Purple Heart? They keep a pretty tight record of the people that recieved the award.
Yes, and the purple heart ribbon was the first one. We are a state employment office and don't have access to those kinds of records. We have to wait for the veteran to give us proof, or we can order it for them, which requires their signature. Sometimes I can call a VSO and they can confirm if he/she is a veteran, but if the VSO has not seen the person they won't have any info.
I had referred this "vet" to the VSO as he was claiming he was denied disability. I told him to get with a VSO and refile. I talked to that VSO today and the vet never made an appointment. The VSO is going to look into this also and call me back tomorrow.
Is there a way the general public can confirm a purple heart recipient?
I am also sending in an SF180 claiming the Freedom of Information Act. This will only confirm if he does have military service, but won't give me any other info than that. That takes about 2 weeks.
thewookie
09-17-09, 01:52 PM
1. A photo is worth a thousand words. You want to secure a photo of the charlatan wearing unauthorized and unearned awards and accoutrements. This is the core of any Stolen Valor prosecution, and it makes prosecution a slam dunk.
2. You need to document the crime. A copy of the DD214 that the poser is using is critical, as a DD214 is a Federal document. If it is hacked, or modified in any unauthorized fashion, that act is yet another vital piece of evidence. It is also another separate felony. Copies of orders that are falsified are also good pieces of evidence, as the originals can be located.
3. You need to get a copy of the genuine DD214 via FOIA. It does not take long to receive a reply from the National Archives and Records Administration (NARA). A few weeks at most, and often less. Compare this official document with the one that the poser is distributing. Any discrepancies should be obvious.
3a. It is possible that a poser will have false information in his military records, and this information can show up on a legit DD214. Demonstrating fakery of this magnitude involves specialized investigation. As an example, the fake POW poser CSM Richard Cayton is a prime example of the phenomenon. CSM Cayton was a genuine soldier, a genuine veteran of Vietnam, and a Ranger veteran of Vietnam, in fact, but he somehow felt compelled to embellish his already worthy war record with false claims of POW status and escape. He was busted cold.
4. Once you have the above steps completed, take stock of where you are. If your poser is illegally drawing VA benefits, for example, notify the VA Inspector General. Do it in writing, be specific, and request a written reply. Do not be angry if they send you a form letter stating that "no further investigation is warranted." If you know that the poser is fraudulently drawing benefits, that VA investigator just handed their head to you on a platter. If you suspect that the VA IG made a mistake, then patiently and politely reply to the person who signed your letter, and tell them so, and why. Ask them to reconsider their lack of action, and to inform you of their decision in writing.
5. Gather all materials together into an organized document with tabs for supporting materials. Make duplicate copies. Send a copy to the US Attorney (AUSA) in the jurisdiction in which the crimes have occurred. These are the folks who will prosecute your poser. Include a cover letter explaining who you are and why you are sending them the information. Politely ask them to review your data and then prosecute the poser under Stolen Valor statutes. There is nothing wrong with including a copy of those statutes in the document, and citing specific clauses and violations in your letter. Be certain to cite specific dates, times, venues, witnesses, and evidence. Finally, ask the AUSA to confirm receipt, and to advise you of their ultimate course of action.
6. One thing that you must not forget to do is to document how the fraudulent activities of the poser have benefited him. Be specific, and do not shy away from documenting precise dollar amounts. If the benefits are more vague, list them, but emphasize how they harm others. In any case, you need to document how the fraudulent activity of the poser has harmed others. It is not enough, generally, to simply state "so-and-so violated the law." You have to say that much, specifically cite which law, and then wrap it up with statements that make clear that the violations harmed Federal agencies, private firms, and specific individuals.
7. Finally, when you hit a brick wall, and no one will do anything, you take copies of all of your correspondence with the VA IG, and the AUSA, and anyone else, and you present it to your elected officials. You can find them using www.house.gov (http://www.house.gov) for Congressional representatives, and www.senate.gov (http://www.senate.gov) for Senators. Write them a cover letter stating that you referred a case of Stolen Valor to the VA IG or to the AUSA for prosecution and that they failed in their duties. Elected officials have staffers whose entire purpose in life is to handle guys like you. They will review your packet, and if they see that you do indeed have a case, which should be immediately apparent if you have carefully followed the guidance in this post, then you will suddenly start to receive phone calls or emails from AUSA's and VA investigators and other people who previously were blowing you off. This is because the staffers who work for your elected representatives will send them letters asking them for formal replies to inconvenient questions.
8. Follow your case all the way through to prosecution and sentencing. Post here and on other websites. We will help, and we can, in often magical ways. Also keep the good folks at the POW Network in the loop. They are the real experts at poser busting.
9. Once everything is said and done, write letters of appreciation or letters of complaint to the bosses of those people who either helped or failed to do their jobs. If a Federal employee receives a letter from someone that is reasoned, calm, and precise, and it details that someone under their supervision failed to do their job, that can be pretty shocking.
MotherGoose
09-17-09, 02:10 PM
Thank you, I printed those directions wookie and will keep everyone posted on the progess. How I wish I had a camera at my desk the other day!!!!!!
thewookie
09-17-09, 02:14 PM
Thank you, I printed those directions wookie and will keep everyone posted on the progess. How I wish I had a camera at my desk the other day!!!!!!
I was thinking, he might be spooked now that he ran into a REAL MARINE. Might be tough to get him back in your office, especially in uniform.
Don't let him off the line, set the hook good, and reel him in.....:evilgrin:
One last link with good info...
http://www.pownetwork.org/phonies/phonies528.htm
Nothing fires me up more then posers, especially on a day when SFC Jared Monti is posthumously awarded the Medal of Honor.
Lisa 23
09-17-09, 02:50 PM
I hope this doesn't sound stupid, but you said you work in a state employment office? If so, does the building you work in have security cameras? If it does, I'd go thru the proper channels to request a copy of it, and hopefully you can get a still piture of him from the video.
Just a thought....
drillinstructor
09-17-09, 03:00 PM
Thank you MSgt! I knew it did not seem right. The plot thickens.
NP Mother Goose. Keep that Marine spirit alive...........
thewookie
09-17-09, 03:25 PM
I hope this doesn't sound stupid, but you said you work in a state employment office? If so, does the building you work in have security cameras? If it does, I'd go thru the proper channels to request a copy of it, and hopefully you can get a still piture of him from the video.
Just a thought....
Yeah, good point. I bet the guy is spooked and won't come back, unless he's a rock. Maybe have a co-worker call him and coax him to come back in, then pile drive his azz. :mad:
Old Marine
09-17-09, 03:29 PM
My gut tells me that the shirt he was wearing was a tropical shirt and not a khaki one. When I was active duty Marines were authorized to wear this shirt with their dress blue trousers and white barrack cover. The brass chevrons do not sound kosher. Khaki shirts were only worn on mess duty and with khaki trousers. If you get someone with boondockers and leggings, make sujre you get a picture.
Phantom Blooper
09-17-09, 04:11 PM
Try this : http://thepurpleheart.com/recipient/
:evilgrin:
thewookie
09-19-09, 10:09 AM
Sad but true...
SlingerDun
09-19-09, 04:13 PM
yeah he probably spooked, but dolts are forgetful and don't stray far from the feed source, he'll resurface somewhere.
Supersquishy
09-19-09, 04:31 PM
Speaking of which, my friend (Marine Nam Vet) and I were just discussing about a douche we both know put in a blurb in the local newspaper about his daughter being a Marine Corps aviator knowing full well that she is not in the Marines but in the Navy. We were both like WTF! Just sayin' its pretty trivial but still ****es me off that he had to give a Title away that my friend and I Earned especially my friend.
MotorT3533
09-19-09, 11:50 PM
MotherGoose -
May I ask where in Indiana you are? Just wondering if this "Reservist" happened to mention which unit he was with in Indiana since I could probably get you in touch with some of the units as I am with Eng Co. Bravo in South Bend.
Sgt Reynolds
thewookie
09-21-09, 03:33 PM
Is this your guy....:mad: <br />
<br />
Marine Charged With Faking War Wounds for Gain <br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
I hope he rots in his cell.
it could be that he was wearing the green sweater over his khaki shirt which covers his rank insignias on his sleeves, like in this photo:
http://i37.tinypic.com/2potjt0.gif
it shows the chevrons pinned on the collar.
0331 2 0369
09-28-09, 07:13 AM
it could be that he was wearing the green sweater over his khaki shirt which covers his rank insignias on his sleeves, like in this photo:
http://i37.tinypic.com/2potjt0.gif
it shows the chevrons pinned on the collar.
I can't see the pic you posted because I am at work. Even if he did wear his grean sweater (wooly pully), he wouldn't be authorized to wear the gold chevrons.
MotherGoose
09-29-09, 08:33 AM
Okay, I've had some trouble posting responses so I am hoping this goes through. Every time I try to post it takes me in this circle of logging in, submitting reply, logging in, submitting reply... and so on.
Okay, so here is the update. Got a response from National Personnel Records Center in St. Louis- no record, they forwarded my request to Quantico. I had already fax'd the SF180 to Quantico. Quantico had no records and forwarded the SF180 to the Department of the Army Human Resources Command-Indianapolis. Indianapolis sent me a letter stating there is no record and that I should forward the request to Army Human Resources Command in St. Louis, which is my next step.
Never received a return phone call from this "veteran" either.
To answer some of the questions presented:
1. The security cameras in our office are inadequate. There was no shot of him. The camera constantly switches from view to view, such as the front entrance, back entrance, unemployment counter, computer lab... it doesn't provide any clean shots inside our cubicles.
2. When he was in here, he was wearing a khaki short sleeved shirt, or perhaps tropical as Old Marine pointed out, with the gold chevrons on the collar.
3. He didn't say which reserve unit he was with, but Grissom AFB (Kokomo/Peru area) is in our county and they have a USMC detachment there. We have some of their Marines in our MCL, I could ask them, never thought of that. I'm slow sometimes:(
MotherGoose
11-12-09, 11:02 AM
Received a letter from HQMC stating that there are no records of this guys' name and social security #. I then called HQMC, to double verify, and they also stated no record. To triple check, I sent in a letter with the SF180 stating what was going on and that I really needed to verify this person's Marine Corps service before confronting him. I just received a letter from HQMC and they state that they completed a diligent search of all current active duty members, former active duty members, and reserve component member files and there is no record at all for this person.
I called his house and a woman answered, I asked to speak with him and after a minute she got back on the phone and said "he can't come to the phone right now" and hung up on me. She didn't even know who I was or what I was even calling about because I didn't say.
Also received confirmation from Army Human Resources that he served in the Army National Guard from 1988-1994 "no active duty performed other than for training purposes."
I'm waiting to hear from our states' VETS Coordinator on how to move forward with this since I am not allowed to give his information to the public. I have done some research to find out any other information that he has posted on the internet. Found a post by him on his high school website that says he went into the Marines after graduation in 1989, was a scout sniper, recently returned from Baghdad (the post date was 11/2007.) Employment records he gave us state otherwise, how could he be employed full time here while serving in the Corps? Also found an ebay seller profile in which he has a pic of him in dress blues, the pic is so little and fuzzy and I can't really make it out, but looks like LCpl chevrons on his blouse with a blood stripe on his trousers. It is the same guy because he posted the same yahoo.com email address for both of these profiles that he gave our office for our records.
Zulu 36
11-12-09, 11:33 AM
Received a letter from HQMC stating that there are no records of this guys' name and social security #. I then called HQMC, to double verify, and they also stated no record. To triple check, I sent in a letter with the SF180 stating what was going on and that I really needed to verify this person's Marine Corps service before confronting him. I just received a letter from HQMC and they state that they completed a diligent search of all current active duty members, former active duty members, and reserve component member files and there is no record at all for this person.
I called his house and a woman answered, I asked to speak with him and after a minute she got back on the phone and said "he can't come to the phone right now" and hung up on me. She didn't even know who I was or what I was even calling about because I didn't say.
Also received confirmation from Army Human Resources that he served in the Army National Guard from 1988-1994 "no active duty performed other than for training purposes."
I'm waiting to hear from our states' VETS Coordinator on how to move forward with this since I am not allowed to give his information to the public. I have done some research to find out any other information that he has posted on the internet. Found a post by him on his high school website that says he went into the Marines after graduation in 1989, was a scout sniper, recently returned from Baghdad (the post date was 11/2007.) Employment records he gave us state otherwise, how could he be employed full time here while serving in the Corps? Also found an ebay seller profile in which he has a pic of him in dress blues, the pic is so little and fuzzy and I can't really make it out, but looks like LCpl chevrons on his blouse with a blood stripe on his trousers. It is the same guy because he posted the same yahoo.com email address for both of these profiles that he gave our office for our records.
Good work, Mother Goose. You're all over this poseur like white on rice. Keep it up! :beer:
ggyoung
11-12-09, 01:11 PM
Just a couple of tidbits here. I busted a USAF guy a couple years ago. I read this guys obituary in the paper and it stated that he was a POW for about 6 months and then freed when friendly forces overrun the pow camp. That was a dead give a way on him. I sent his name to a phony site and they sent back that he was a phony and is now on there pages. Then there was a e-mail address at the bottom of the obit to send kind words to his family. My response was not of kind words.
I did some research of mine.
The gold chevrons are for the Dress Blue Sweater (crew neck with epaulettes) it's the same sweater as the green service sweater but in navy blue.
the gold chevrons are placed on the epaulettes when worn over your khaki shirt.
MontezumaCpl
11-16-09, 10:49 PM
Here's how this needs to be handled...... Tell him that he is approved but I am his case worker. He needs to come to Quantico Virginia for the final paper work and to recieve his check. Tell him his travel will be reimbursed once he arrives here. I will meet him at the gate and escort him to the back side of Quantico, by Lake Lunga, where I work and that will be the end of it. Never seen or heard from again.:D
I like Gunny Daniels' Solution, I would be happy to assist(even though I live 3000 miles away)! :evilgrin: Outstanding Work, Mother Goose!
GREY MATTER
11-17-09, 03:58 AM
get his social and run him through HQMC...you should be able to obtain his OMPF if he was a SGT or higher
GREY MATTER
11-17-09, 04:02 AM
and i see you already found he was a fraud
Zebra29er
11-18-09, 08:37 PM
Good work, Mother Goose. You're all over this poseur like white on rice. Keep it up! :beer:
Or stink on sh-t and that lingers a long time. good work Mother Goose, please let us know the out come . I would have loved to had had him on point.
Sgt Leprechaun
11-20-09, 12:27 AM
Likely as not, you'll never see him again. If you do, and he's in uniform, simply take a photo for 'verification of identity' purposes. Not a bad idea overall anyway, since wearing ANY insignia/medals/devices etc., that you do not RATE, and did not EARN, is a violation of the Stolen Valor act and is prosecutable under same. Photo evidence is the best evidence.
Keep us updated.
Didn't you say that you found a picture of him from his Ebay profile in uniform? Couldn't you use that?
tankmech
11-28-09, 09:39 PM
Not to my recollection are the gold chevrons worn other than cooks. Give the clown a good old hook up:mad: