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View Full Version : My Lai Massacre-Lt. Calley Apologizes



Shrink
08-22-09, 12:37 PM
For All: <br />
When a report of the My Lai Massacre first appeared in the press there were many people, including myself, who didn't believe it. Then vets who were there during these brutal killings...

Wyoming
08-22-09, 11:13 PM
A real man can admit his mistakes. Too bad Calley's Co Cdr, Bn Cdr, and others could not accept their role of blame. That said, in modern warfare today, we all know that the My Lai incident had a profound affect on decisions in the field. Do you think the enemy (terrorists) worry about who they shoot and kill? They don't mind at all if they kill anyone in the way, or just to enforce a lesson. If you go back in history, some of the most famous conquerors of all time believed that if they left anyone alive it would not serve the lesson they needed to enforce their power. The great Mongol dynasties of Genghis and his sons (Kublai and others) were ruthless, killing as many as 150,000 to teach a lesson to others. Alexander was another ruthless conqueror!!

I am not trying to paint this as a hope for exoneration for Calley. But, it does paint us as maybe not wanting to be conquerors. If you want to be king of the hill, don't offer a helping hand up when you whip the crap out of an opponent. We also all know that many villages acted as safe-havens for VC and operations by the NVA. From what I have read and heard, My Lai was one of these. Calley's men (with or without his okay) did the wrong thing and as their leader, he was responsible for their actions.

Pete0331
08-23-09, 02:33 AM
I read extensively on the topic of Lt. Calley and My Lai.

Calley was the fall guy for the whole thing.
Offences went all the way up the chain.
Capt. Medina especially should have had a longer sentence.

Calley also had to redo OCS 3 times before they would commission him.
Not something that should have happened in the first place.

The reporter that blew the lid off the whole thing was very anti military and used this to further the anti war movement.

A bad deal for everyone.

ggyoung
08-23-09, 06:46 PM
LT. Calley was not fit to lead his mom across the street. When the U.S. Army formed the Ameracal Division the damn army done something that the USMC would never do. That was all the other commands got rid of a lot of the sh!!t braids by sending the to the Americal Div. The Marines will not do that.

Gary Hall
08-24-09, 05:40 PM
:usmc: Sir, in my view, you were caught up in a sorry circumstance of others' doing.

Were it not for a blessing of birthdays, myself and legions of others could have been trapped there with you.

The birthdate blessings resulted in my having moral civilian and Military Commanders, HST and one Chesty Puller. I didn't do much for him but by God I was there.

Now the principal crooks in this sorry and extensive episode greatly supercedes the area My Lai. Let's get right down to Warshington, DC, the scene of the real hog trough.

Again, in my PFC view, the principal crooks are LBJ, Lady Bird J, Linda bird J, Lucy Bird J, but I give Little Beagle Junior, a pass. I felt sorry for his family. Also guilty are the father of the Edsel, hero of the World Bank and consort of Tom Braden's wife, the Honorable Robert McNamara. All these luminaries got away with all the chips.

And as Your Anchor (not mine) Uncle Walter said: "... and that's the way it was ...".

I am appreciative of President Nixon's efforts, in particular the way Linda Greenhouse reports RMN "... supplied (among other assistance) ' steady female companionship..' ..." for Lt. Calley, during his time of travail. And, I also appreciate the words of President Jimmy Carter "... Mr. Calley was a scapegoat.." Thank you Mr. President. Finally, I appreciate the Harvard Survey wherein it was reported: " ... 2/3 of the people (Americans, I guess), would shoot unarmed civilians, if ordered to do so."

Some of you wannabe warriors out there, war is pretty serious business, and nasty (Hell). If you elect to get in one, it's best to win, not lose. Gung Ho, Gary Hall. :usmc: :usmc:

Zulu 36
08-24-09, 06:33 PM
While I was in, I knew a Marine Sergeant who had been a corrections type at Leavenworth (after the Navy closed Portsmouth Naval Prison). While there he had the chance to talk with Calley a number of times.

His impression was that Calley was not very intelligent (IQ-wise), was not well educated, and lacked common sense. This Marine felt that Calley might have made an adequate PFC or L/Cpl in the Marine Corps, but was not even NCO material, never mind an officer. He struggled just to honcho work details at the prison.

His assessment was that Calley was a nice guy and an honest dupe in the whole mess. Honest because he never denied his involvement, a dupe because he followed obviously illegal orders.

I think Nixon reduced his sentence because he knew Calley was the fall-guy and this was the only thing he could do to make a point to the Army.

SgtThrasher
08-24-09, 08:08 PM
The Hue city Massacre by the Vietnamese communist that killed~~2800 citizens, selected by clipboard carrying thugs and murdered and buried in shallow graves isn't talked about by the MSM and the liberals.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gVCutQ4O8Wg

Wyoming
08-24-09, 08:51 PM
The only "standing ovation" that Calley should have gotten was him standing against the wall as a firing squad honorably did its duty, with an ovation for their accuracy.

War has its atrocities, but they're not for us to perpetrate. What part of "First to fight for right and freedom and to keep our honor clean" is not being understood?

Sure, there've always been civilian casualties, sometimes even (as in the firebombing of Tokyo, the London Blitz, etc.) as a targeted element of strategy, but never (for us) as an accepted tactic. We are not the Huns.

This atrocity, this mass murder, was not collateral damage, not killing in the heat of battle, not killing enemy soldiers or prisoners. It was precise, directed, personalized, on-the-spot, in-your-face execution of unarmed non-combatants, from the old and infirm to infants. There is no less a term than "war-crime atrocity" that would apply.

Those who died at My Lai were not combat deaths, but were murder victims. If, as Calley claimed, he was following orders, then he would have to have known that they were illegal orders and must be refused. The offered excuse of "I was only following orders" did not serve to exculpate the Nazis on trial at Nuremberg.

It wasn't even the right ville! It wasn't the ville from which their outfit had previously taken fire. If that act of terrorism was meant to deter the enemy, it instead encouraged him. That act of mayhem smeared **** all over what we tried to do, how and why we fought and died. And it cost us countless casualties, because it gave very effective ammunition to the anti-war protesters.

To this day, I would serve proudly on the firing squad to take care of Calley. I would make sure I was not loaded with a blank, and I would not miss.

usmcspitfire
08-24-09, 08:59 PM
The Hue city Massacre by the Vietnamese communist that killed~~2800 citizens, selected by clipboard carrying thugs and murdered and buried in shallow graves isn't talked about by the MSM and the liberals.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gVCutQ4O8Wg

Respectfully, I do not understand the point of you posting that. Just because the enemy were savage in their methods, does not permit U.S. forces leeway in murdering innocent civilians. Lt. Calley was the platoon commander, he was responsible for the actions of his men.

I hope we (U.S. Forces) have learned from Vietnam that over reliance on technology, close air support, artillery, and conventional warfare in general will not win a war against insurgents.

Gary Hall
08-24-09, 10:05 PM
In my view, certainly not - never.

What are the options then?

If he did, that's one circumstance, easy to handle.

If he didn't he was either directly ordered to "terminate with extreme prejudice", as the policy makers used to like to say, but they've recently become a lot more devious in these high techy times.

If he was not directly ordered, then it's a good possibility that the implication to do so (made upstairs), finally gravitied down to the one easiest to trap, a 2nd Lt.

A 2nd Lt can't deny why things happen. He's there and responsible, according to the rules of the game. But everybody else above him can come up with "plausible deniability", that 2nd greatest game in DC.

Those individuals with access to plausible deniability, always have "get of jail free" documentation.

Hang in there Lt, when your orders come from the likes of LBJ and Robert McNamara, this outcome is what to expect. And hope you've got some friends in better places. Gung Ho, Gary Hall.

Pete0331
08-25-09, 03:40 AM
In my view, certainly not - never.

What are the options then?

If he did, that's one circumstance, easy to handle.

If he didn't he was either directly ordered to "terminate with extreme prejudice", as the policy makers used to like to say, but they've recently become a lot more devious in these high techy times.

If he was not directly ordered, then it's a good possibility that the implication to do so (made upstairs), finally gravitied down to the one easiest to trap, a 2nd Lt.

A 2nd Lt can't deny why things happen. He's there and responsible, according to the rules of the game. But everybody else above him can come up with "plausible deniability", that 2nd greatest game in DC.

Those individuals with access to plausible deniability, always have "get of jail free" documentation.

Hang in there Lt, when your orders come from the likes of LBJ and Robert McNamara, this outcome is what to expect. And hope you've got some friends in better places. Gung Ho, Gary Hall.



The way the briefing went down, all persons on the objective were classified as hostile forces.
The order to treat all persons as hostile came down from (IIRC) the brigade level.


Just thinking on a side note, I pray this is never made into a Hollywood film.

DocGreek
08-25-09, 08:04 AM
:evilgrin:....GENTLEMEN....this thread is getting out of hand. MURDER? ATROCITIES?....where do I start? How about the Holocaust? Was justice served? How about the Bataan death march? Was justice served? How about OUR fire bombing of Dresden, and Hamburg? Was justice served?

"WAR IS HELL!"...terrorism...ALL countries that wage war are responsible for the killing of innocent civilians. To single out just ONE incident in the war in Viet Nam, is OBSCENE!! STOP TRYING TO FIND REASON IN THE THOUGHTS OF POLITICALLY ELECTED OFFICIALS WHO DICTATE WAR POLICY!!!

zx6rdr
08-25-09, 08:27 AM
:evilgrin:....GENTLEMEN....this thread is getting out of hand. MURDER? ATROCITIES?....where do I start? How about the Holocaust? Was justice served? How about the Bataan death march? Was justice served? How about OUR fire bombing of Dresden, and Hamburg? Was justice served?

"WAR IS HELL!"...terrorism...ALL countries that wage war are responsible for the killing of innocent civilians. To single out just ONE incident in the war in Viet Nam, is OBSCENE!! STOP TRYING TO FIND REASON IN THE THOUGHTS OF POLITICALLY ELECTED OFFICIALS WHO DICTATE WAR POLICY!!!


OOOOORAH

ggyoung
08-25-09, 10:19 AM
Just to add a little more to the fire. What about the Que Sone Valley killing? This was done by US Marines. 16 old men and women and kids were killed. Who knows about that?

FistFu68
08-25-09, 11:31 AM
:evilgrin: PFC HALL you forgot 2 add President Kennedy @ Ho Chi Mien :confused: :iwo:

usmcspitfire
08-25-09, 01:10 PM
:evilgrin:....GENTLEMEN....this thread is getting out of hand. MURDER? ATROCITIES?....where do I start? How about the Holocaust? Was justice served? How about the Bataan death march? Was justice served? How about OUR fire bombing of Dresden, and Hamburg? Was justice served?

"WAR IS HELL!"...terrorism...ALL countries that wage war are responsible for the killing of innocent civilians. To single out just ONE incident in the war in Viet Nam, is OBSCENE!! STOP TRYING TO FIND REASON IN THE THOUGHTS OF POLITICALLY ELECTED OFFICIALS WHO DICTATE WAR POLICY!!!

How is it obscene, Doc? Should we just shrug it off? It is a big deal, if we do not make a precedent of this, it will encourage events like this in the future.

Politics is a necessary component of counterinsurgency, so is civil affairs, even more important than the military aspect. You blame politicians, but it was the commanders of MACV that refused to integrate guerilla warfare strategy/suggestions from lower level Officers. Even President Kennedy made a push for non-conventional strategy in the US forces in Vietnam. The MACV Command refused to steer away from their conventional policy that served them well through WWII and Korea. The Marine Corps was the only branch to widely recognize the need for a new strategy through out the Vietnam War with the CAP plts, but that was too late.

Killing innocent civilians is infinitely more harmful to the cause of a counterinsurgency than killing insurgents is healthy for a counterinsurgency.

I suggest "Learning to Eat Soup with a Knife" by Lt. Col. John Nagl, USA(R). It is a comparison between The British Army's defeat of communist terrorism(CT) in Malaya and the defeat of American forces in Vietnam.

Just my humble opinion.
S/F

Gary Hall
08-25-09, 01:36 PM
:evilgrin: PFC HALL you forgot 2 add President Kennedy @ Ho Chi Mien :confused: :iwo:

On my not commenting about JFK, if memory is not totally gone, I have read reports that Pres. Kennedy, had he been given the opportunity, would have began US Troop drawdowns in Viet Nam, this would have been early 1964.

Regarding Ho Chi Mien (Uncle Ho): Again, reports have been that one of his first efforts after assuming a Viet Nam leadership role was to ask the US to help and support him. Please some of you scholars check me out on this. I have read that the North Viet Nam Constitution was modeled after the US Constitution and also, that frequently on July 4th, some years, NVN would publicly read the US Constitution over the air.

Wars are tricky, and bravery has little to do with a successful outcome. The winning side will be the one that has the most to waste and makes the fewest mistakes.

Unfortunately, this requirement demands a special type of Moral Leader & when I look around the US Congress, all I see are wannabes, looking to fill up their sacks.
Gung Ho, Gary Hall.

ggyoung
08-25-09, 01:42 PM
Just to add a little more to the fire. What about the Que Sone Valley killing? This was done by US Marines. 16 old men and women and kids were killed. Who knows about that?

This involves LT. Oliver North. 3rd. Marine Reg. and the 1st Marine Reg. BTW this has a happy ending.

ggyoung
08-25-09, 01:48 PM
How is it obscene, Doc? Should we just shrug it off? It is a big deal, if we do not make a precedent of this, it will encourage events like this in the future.

Politics is a necessary component of counterinsurgency, so is civil affairs, even more important than the military aspect. You blame politicians, but it was the commanders of MACV that refused to integrate guerilla warfare strategy/suggestions from lower level Officers. Even President Kennedy made a push for non-conventional strategy in the US forces in Vietnam. The MACV Command refused to steer away from their conventional policy that served them well through WWII and Korea. The Marine Corps was the only branch to widely recognize the need for a new strategy through out the Vietnam War with the CAP plts, but that was too late.

Killing innocent civilians is infinitely more harmful to the cause of a counterinsurgency than killing insurgents is healthy for a counterinsurgency.

I suggest "Learning to Eat Soup with a Knife" by Lt. Col. John Nagl, USA(R). It is a comparison between The British Army's defeat of communist terrorism(CT) in Malaya and the defeat of American forces in Vietnam.

Just my humble opinion.
S/F

OMG LT. You have been reading some old books. Good for you. Can you remember the old movie "7 Dawn"?

usmcspitfire
08-25-09, 02:07 PM
OMG LT. You have been reading some old books. Good for you. Can you remember the old movie "7 Dawn"?

That is a great attitude to have, Sgt. In fact I know some names of men who shared your same attitude. One of their names was Gen. Westmoreland. They thought that listening to suggestions of younger officers was absurd, like Lt. Col. Moore (depicted in We Were Soldiers).

I guess it would be a better idea to have young officers who aren't educated about the type of warfare they are engaging in, right Sgt? Have more Lt. Calley's out there?

PM me if you would like to continue this, no need to distract from this thread.

montana
08-25-09, 06:24 PM
ggyoung the Que Sone vally -Marine Corps issue was in the village of SonThang...LT Oliver North was not there...he had been up north with the 3rd....the Marine that led the Killer team had saved Norths life a cupple of times ...the so called pulled the 3rd out of Nam ...what they did was gather all the salts from the 5th and the 7th <----<<us and sent the boots from the 3rd to distribute among us....the Marine that saved Norths life was sent to 2nd plt Bco 1/7....i remember that night..we heard a lot of gun fire and were ready to go kick but sa backup....but nothing came of it...was a big effort to cover it up.....was 16 women and children killed...the oldest was a 68 year old grannyson...the youngest was an 18 month old baby...was shot at very close range in the head with a 45..North testafied for the caracter of pvt Randy Herrod the team leader that gave the order to shoot all...and wasnt convicted

Gary Hall
North Vietnam fought along with American troops aginst the Japs.....and asked the US to help them unite their country and help sway France to give up their clame to south Vietnam...US desided to stand by their French allys

montana
08-25-09, 06:33 PM
from the 5th and 7th and transferd them to the 3rd...the boots from the 3rd were dispursed amongst up....along with Pvt Randy Herrod the team leader and North rescuer was the one that gave the orders to shoot...and also fired was not convicted...those killed were women and children ranging from 68 year old granny to 18 month old babby shot in the head at very close range by a 45 pistol..no men were found among the bodys

SgtThrasher
08-25-09, 06:43 PM
[quote=usmcspitfire;534951]Respectfully, I do not understand the point of you posting that. Just because the enemy were savage in their methods, does not permit U.S. forces leeway in murdering innocent civilians. Lt. Calley was the platoon commander, he was responsible for the actions of his men.

I hope we (U.S. Forces) have learned from Vietnam that over reliance on technology, close air support, artillery, and conventional warfare in general will not win a war against insurgents.[/quo
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It should be obvious ,two massacres occur and only one is reported.I didn't imply Lt.Calley's actions were justified,(they weren't ) and that U.S forces were permitted the murder of innocent civilians because these kinds of things were carried out by Vietnamese communist , those were your words Lieutenant !

I disagree with your theory of Vietnam,the Marines never lost a battle in Vietnam.In retrospect it was the MSM,the politicians and hippies that took care of that!

SgtThrasher
08-25-09, 06:52 PM
[quote=usmcspitfire;534951]Respectfully, I do not understand the point of you posting that. Just because the enemy were savage in their methods, does not permit U.S. forces leeway in murdering innocent civilians. Lt. Calley was the platoon commander, he was responsible for the actions of his men.

I hope we (U.S. Forces) have learned from Vietnam that over reliance on technology, close air support, artillery, and conventional warfare in general will not win a war against insurgents.[/quo

It should be obvious ,two massacres occur and only one is reported.I didn't imply Lt.Calley's actions were justified,(they weren't ) and that U.S forces were permitted the murder of innocent civilians because these kinds of things were carried out by Vietnamese communist , those were your words Lieutenant !

I disagree with your theory of Vietnam,the Marines never lost a battle in Vietnam.In retrospect it was the MSM,the politicians and hippies that that took care of that!

usmcspitfire
08-25-09, 07:08 PM
[quote=usmcspitfire;534951]Respectfully, I do not understand the point of you posting that. Just because the enemy were savage in their methods, does not permit U.S. forces leeway in murdering innocent civilians. Lt. Calley was the platoon commander, he was responsible for the actions of his men.

I hope we (U.S. Forces) have learned from Vietnam that over reliance on technology, close air support, artillery, and conventional warfare in general will not win a war against insurgents.[/quo

It should be obvious ,two massacres occur and only one is reported.I didn't imply Lt.Calley's actions were justified,(they weren't ) and that U.S forces were permitted the murder of innocent civilians because these kinds of things were carried out by Vietnamese communist , those were your words Lieutenant !

I disagree with your theory of Vietnam,the Marines never lost a battle in Vietnam.In retrospect it was the MSM,the politicians and hippies that that took care of that!

It isn't my theory, it belongs to some of the greatest military theorists and commanders of the late 20th/early 21st century.

You can disagree with it as much as you want. You proved the point by saying "the Marines never lost a battle in Vietnam." Even if that was true, it shows you cannot win a war against insurgents strictly by military means, as Vietnam showed. There is also a civil and political side to the conflict. "You might have won the battle, but I have won the war!"

Example: The Tet Offensive.

It was overwhelmingly a one-sided ass-whooping military victory, thanks to our fine Marines, Soldiers, Sailors, and Airmen in country. However, it was seen as a political victory for the North Vietnamese, one which we would never overcome.

I don't mean to sound like I am lecturing, if I do, just having a professional discussion with fellow Marines.

S/F

Gary Hall
08-25-09, 07:25 PM
Montana: Thank you for the reply. I've got to ask you, could you be the "Montana" (I never knew him by any other name) who worked with me in the South Texas oilfields on drilling rigs. It was about 10 or so years ago. I remember "Montana" had been in the USMC, I think in Viet Nam and I remember a story he told me one time about being a brig chaser, briefly. From looking at your profile pic, there is a resemblance. Looking forward to a reply. Gary Hall, Tyler, TX. (Gung Ho).

ggyoung
08-25-09, 07:46 PM
ggyoung the Que Sone vally -Marine Corps issue was in the village of SonThang...LT Oliver North was not there...he had been up north with the 3rd....the Marine that led the Killer team had saved Norths life a cupple of times ...the so called pulled the 3rd out of Nam ...what they did was gather all the salts from the 5th and the 7th <----<<us and sent the boots from the 3rd to distribute among us....the Marine that saved Norths life was sent to 2nd plt Bco 1/7....i remember that night..we heard a lot of gun fire and were ready to go kick but sa backup....but nothing came of it...was a big effort to cover it up.....was 16 women and children killed...the oldest was a 68 year old grannyson...the youngest was an 18 month old baby...was shot at very close range in the head with a 45..North testafied for the caracter of pvt Randy Herrod the team leader that gave the order to shoot all...and wasnt convicted

Gary Hall
North Vietnam fought along with American troops aginst the Japs.....and asked the US to help them unite their country and help sway France to give up their clame to south Vietnam...US desided to stand by their French allys

In 1970 I was NCOIC of Brovo Block 3rd MAV Brig. At that time I had 2 prisoners who were on the Killer Team in Son Thang. Green was one and the other I can't remember his name. I know we all thought that they were getting the sh!!ty end of the stick. During the night watches we would be one of them out of his cell and give him some smokes. It was the one who I can not remember his name that was in Norths platoon. Any way LT. North came back to Vietnam for the kids tryail. North went out on a killer team to see what it was like. He got that young Marine off. So the rest of the team got off also. A very good book to read all about it is "Blues Bastards"

Gary Hall
08-25-09, 08:03 PM
Lt, I wouldn't have the brass to contradict any of your words, on my own.

The following remarks are not of my origination, but I have come to believe them.

How would you rate Gen'l McArthur among the rolls of those great Military Theorists?

Have you read the now old book by Col. T. R. Fehrenbach, "This Kind of War"? (Col. Fehrenbach talks about leaders of men & "perfumed Princes"). Are you familiar with the direction this could take?

Are Generals LeMay & Patton among your references that deny wars can be won by Military means?

I read that Col. Fehrenbach took the position that talkers and "perfumed prince" Infantry leaders are not going to win anything. They prefer to posture and "manage circumstances", and exist to have their picture taken with their mouths open.

Wars will continue to be won by "rendering harmless". Now if you can do that by talking, (politics) I want to live long enough to see it.

By "rendering harmless" I prefer to use the Words to be found in Joshua Chapter 6, when the Lord gives his orders to Joshua: "Kill everyone . . . ".

That'll get their attention, politics wont do it. and Gung Ho, Gary Hall.

usmcspitfire
08-25-09, 08:16 PM
Lt, I wouldn't have the brass to contradict any of your words, on my own.

The following remarks are not of my origination, but I have come to believe them.

How would you rate Gen'l McArthur among the rolls of those great Military Theorists?

Have you read the now old book by Col. T. R. Fehrenbach, "This Kind of War"? (Col. Fehrenbach talks about leaders of men & "perfumed Princes"). Are you familiar with the direction this could take?

Are Generals LeMay & Patton among your references that deny wars can be won by Military means?

I read that Col. Fehrenbach took the position that talkers and "perfumed prince" Infantry leaders are not going to win anything. They prefer to posture and "manage circumstances", and exist to have their picture taken with their mouths open.

Wars will continue to be won by "rendering harmless". Now if you can do that by talking, (politics) I want to live long enough to see it.

By "rendering harmless" I prefer to use the Words to be found in Joshua Chapter 6, when the Lord gives his orders to Joshua: "Kill everyone . . . ".

That'll get their attention, politics wont do it. and Gung Ho, Gary Hall.

Gary, I never said wars cannot be won by military means. I said that insurgencies(historically) can't be fought strictly by military means. I agree with you that conventional wars rely on military force. The Marine Corps has a history of winning in small guerrilla warfare with unconventional strategies.

The reason that the senior Officers in Vietnam were so dead set on conventional warfare is that they were junior officers in WWII, mid level officers in Korea, both which were strictly conventional wars. They were convinced by the examples of Patton and MacArthur that ALL wars could be won through superior firepower and technology.

Also, being an educated Marine and being a hard warrior in combat are not mutually exclusive. Some of the strongest, hardest, Marines I have known were also some of the smartest Marines I have ever known, enlisted or officer.

FistFu68
08-25-09, 09:24 PM
:evilgrin: Dam Gary I was just reading the book of Moses Originator of the 1st.Israel Defense Forces when encamped in Sini 4 2 years,then Joshua very Deep :thumbup: :iwo:

montana
08-26-09, 08:25 AM
Gary Hall although i did work in the oilfeilds for a cupple years it wasnt anywhere near Texas,,,was in eastern Montana and North Dakota

ggyoung those who were on that killer team wereLCpl Michael Krichten PfcThomas Boyd PfcSam Green Pvt Randy Herrod<----<<< was the one in Norths Plt up north and was the team leader.. Pvt Michael Schwarz

FistFu68
08-26-09, 09:07 AM
:evilgrin: Zulu 36 when You were a PFC or L/Cpl. where You as Dumb as the Lt. before You became General :confused: :iwo:

A Co Legal
08-26-09, 03:16 PM
What didn't get said regarding the massacre was that an Army chopper pilot by the name of Hugh Thompson Jr. was the one that gave his door gunner an order to open fire on the 11th Brigade.

That war was a massacre for America and Viet Nam. 13 from my high school paid the ultimate price.

Regarding the Mongols: They never conquered the country we now know as Viet Nam.

Supersquishy
08-26-09, 03:38 PM
What didn't get said regarding the massacre was that an Army chopper pilot by the name of Hugh Thompson Jr. was the one that gave his door gunner an order to open fire on the 11th Brigade.



WTF happened?

Shrink
08-26-09, 04:59 PM
Gentle Souls:

Sometime in 1962, if memory serves, General Shoup, then CMC, asked a group of officers attending a briefing in re items that were on the JCS agenda for that day if they knew of any recent successful counterinsurgency effort by anyone anytime?

I returned to my office, and sent a book and memorandum signed by me up to him "via the vias." This meant that since I originated the process it had to be "chopped" (signed off on) by my boss, the head of the Plans Section, through his boss, the head of "P&O Plans and Operations Division, G-4, HQMC, the G-4 (then MGen Lenny Chapman); the Chief of Staff (then LtGen Wallace M. Greene); and finally through the Military Secretary to the Commandant before reaching the desk of the CMC. The routing slip was returned to me with the annotation that "CMC has seen and noted."

Question: What book did I bring to General Shoup's attention? Let's see how many of you know a bit about MC history. I'll give you a hint: Gen Shoup, then a Lt, was court martialed for killing a civilian during this counter-insurgency operation.

Shoup, for the record was absolutely against any US involvement on the "mainland" of Asia, and referred consistently to the position taken on that subject by General MacArthur. Although he was urged by various "action officers" on JCS agenda items to express the MC's "Direct Concern" in some of the matters that came before the JCS he adamantly refused to do so. Shoup had a running argument with the principal MC JCS planner who kept prodding him to express, if nothing else, some of the items that the JCS considered with Southeast Asia implications.

One aside on the CAP Platoons. Actually the first such platoon was in the Phu Bai TAOR where LtCol Tut Vale commanded. There was nothing new in the basic idea. The MC had a history of carrying out this type of operation before and doing it successfully until a new POTUS changed US policy.

I inherited a CAC Company in late May of 1966. My XO had returned to the TAOR to help get our ducks in a row prior to 1/4 assuming responsibility. In the process he had taken a look at the CAC Company....and immediately shut down all its operations until I could get back and look at the situation. Talk about "Terry and the Pirates," that CAC company and its platoons and squads had what I referred to as "Gone Asiatic" and until we could make some sweeping changes in leadership and personnel were a danger to themselves and everyone else in the TAOR. And that's all I'm gonna say bout 'dat. Respectfully, Semper Fidelis, Sully

Zulu 36
08-26-09, 05:19 PM
What didn't get said regarding the massacre was that an Army chopper pilot by the name of Hugh Thompson Jr. was the one that gave his door gunner an order to open fire on the 11th Brigade.

That war was a massacre for America and Viet Nam. 13 from my high school paid the ultimate price.

Regarding the Mongols: They never conquered the country we now know as Viet Nam.


The gunner never fired on US troops. The pilot plopped his helo down between the US troops and Vietnamese civilians and told his gunner to shoot if the US troops didn't stop shooting civilians. The pilot got out of his chopper and started raising holy hell and stopped the killing in the area he was at. The helo pilot was also the guy that reported the killings first, in fact he was *****ing about it on the radio while he flying around the area - lots of people heard him.

The story is really quite complicated, see:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hugh_Thompson,_Jr.

Shrink
08-26-09, 06:48 PM
Gentle Souls:

My congratulations to Zulu 36. The latter obviously has done his homework and actually consulted a reference that others of us on this board may read and profit thereby in our overall understanding of what really went down at My Lai.

So many of the statements....and I won't embarrass anyone here by singling out a specific misstatement.... could have been avoided by going to a secondary source on My Lai, of which there are a plethora. Zulu 36 contributes one of these important citations and mentions the actions of an Army helo pilot and his crew. That pilot, WO Hugh Thompson, died recently and his obituary tells a great deal about him:


My Lai Hero Hugh Thompson Jr. Dies at 62

NEW ORLEANS -- Hugh Thompson Jr., a former U.S. Army helicopter pilot who rescued unarmed Vietnamese civilians from his fellow GIs during what became known as the My Lai massacre, died early Friday, his biographer and a hospital spokesman confirmed. He was 62.

Thompson, who was from Lafayette, Louisiana, died at the Veterans Affairs Medical Center in the central Louisiana city of Alexandria, hospital spokesman Jay DeWorth said.

Trent Angers, Thompson'a biographer and family friend, said Thompson was being treated for cancer and had been removed from life support earlier this week. Angers said Thompson's former gunner, Lawrence Colburn, had driven in from Atlanta to be at his bedside.

"America has lost a valuable hero of the Vietnam conflict," DeWorth said.

It was March 16, 1968, when Thompson and his crew watched in horror as an American Army officer walked up to an injured Vietnamese girl, flipped her over with his foot _ and shot her dead. It was his first glimpse of the massacre that led to the court martial of Lt. William Calley, one of the pivotal events as opposition to the war was growing in the United States.

Calley was eventually sentenced to life in prison but his sentence was reduced by President Richard Nixon. He served three years under house arrest.

Journalist Seymour Hersh won a Pulitzer Prize for his reporting on the massacre in 1970.

Thompson would recall in a 1998 Associated Press interview seeing bodies piled in a ditch and watching American soldiers approaching Vietnamese women, children and old men.
"These people were looking at me for help and there was no way I could turn my back on them," Thompson said.

He placed his chopper down in front of the advancing Americans and gave Colburn a direct order: Train your M-60 on the GIs and if they try to harm the villagers, "You open up on them."

Thompson radioed to two gun ships behind him, and together they airlifted at least nine villagers to safety.

By the end of his tour of duty, Thompson had been hit eight times by enemy fire and lost five helicopters in combat. He left Vietnam after a combat crash broke his back, and was awarded both a Purple Heart and the Distinguished Flying Cross.

But Thompson's role in ending My Lai didn't come to light until the late 1980s, when David Egan, a professor emeritus at Clemson University, saw an interview with Thompson in a documentary on the massacre.

Egan wrote more than 100 letters to Congress and high-ranking government officials. He pressed others to write. Among those who did: Dean Rusk, secretary of state during the Vietnam years.

Still, no recognition came until Aug. 22, 1996, when the Army told Thompson he'd been approved for the Soldier's Medal, given to those who risk their lives in situations where an opposing army is not involved. He was faxed a copy of the citation.

Though his acts are now considered heroic, for years Thompson suffered snubs and worse from those who considered him unpatriotic.

Fellow servicemen refused to speak with him. He received death threats, and walked out his door to find animal carcasses on his porch. He recalled a congressman angrily saying that Thompson himself was the only serviceman who should be punished because of My Lai.

"He was treated like a traitor for 30 years," Angers said. "So he was conditioned to just shut up and be quiet."

"Every bit of information I got from him, I had to drag it out of him."

Born in Atlanta, Thompson joined the Navy in 1961 and left three years later. In 1966, he joined the Army to become a pilot and completed his training in 1967 before being shipped off to Vietnam. He retired as a first lieutenant in 1983.

Odd, isn't it, that the only true hero of the My Lai Massacre became the designated goat and that albatross was hung about his neck for the rest of his life. Respectfully, Semper Fidelis, Sully

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/77/My_Lai_massacre.jpg/250px-My_Lai_massacre.jpg

A Co Legal
08-26-09, 07:12 PM
Some have made the assumption that the 11th Brigade was fired upon after "an order was given".

I did not write that the door gunner opened-up on the troops.

I wrote about a moment in a sequence of events in circumstances which few will ever experience.

"What wasn't said" was about the publicity involving the incident.

Mr. Thompsons' conduct was a true reflection of honor and duty.

I appreciate all others providing information that fills in the blanks.

Zulu 36
08-26-09, 07:56 PM
Some have made the assumption that the 11th Brigade was fired upon after "an order was given".

I did not write that the door gunner opened-up on the troops.

I wrote about a moment in a sequence of events in circumstances which few will ever experience.

"What wasn't said" was about the publicity involving the incident.

Mr. Thompsons' conduct was a true reflection of honor and duty.

I appreciate all others providing information that fills in the blanks.

I know you didn't write the door gunner actually opened fire. The way you did write it left the result sort of hanging and Supersquishy was asking what eventually happened. Having done previous research on Mei Lei I decided to respond to Supersquishy and provide the Wikipedia link which I had found to be a reasonably accurate rendition of events - according to my research.

I agree that CWO Thompson and his crew's actions that day were examples of the highest order of moral courage and required significant physical courage as well. CWO Thompson was treated shabbily when he was the only bright spot on that whole debacle.

And to Fist. As a PFC and L/Cpl I was every bit as intelligent as I am now (maybe more so). I was a military history buff from my early teens, although I am much more formally educated now. I appreciate your thought that I made General, but I preferred to remain an NCO - it was more fun that way.

FistFu68
08-26-09, 08:57 PM
:usmc: (lol) Musta been all that chest candy wish You were a General I would have been Your driver know D.C @ Pentagon area like the back of my hand.My High School sweeties Daddy busted Nixon during Watergate S/F Marine :beer: :iwo: