If you were inspected by yesterday's Marine, would they approve of what you wear?

[thedrifter]

If you were inspected by yesterday's Marine, would they approve of what you wear?
Cpl. Rebekka S. Heite

Marines are considered an elite military organization by many.

We are the few and the proud. We work hard, and play even harder.

That was the vision I had of a Marine before I joined the Marine Corps and all throughout recruit training.

I thought I was joining an elite group and in many respects I still believe I have.

However, during my four years, I have noticed a downhill trend in compliance with Marine Corps regulations in regards to civilian attire.

Going through boot camp, my platoon was told that even our civilian clothing should be on-par with our service uniforms.

True Marines don't wear tank tops or short shorts, according to my drill instructors.

Yet, at the PX and Commissary, I see female Marines wearing both and even more questionable attire.

It's not only the female Marines shrugging off civilian attire standards.

I don't care to see what type of boxers guys are wearing or not wearing because your pants are below your waistline.

I don't expect you to wear shirt-stays in civilian attire or even to tuck in every shirt, but if we expect female Marines to cover themselves, I think male Marines can do the same.

As Marines we need to adhere to Marine Administrative Messages that maintain the proper standards for civilian attire.

Why else would the Commandant of the Marine Corps send out a message making the wearing our service utilities, out-in-town, against regulations except in cases of emergency, if not to separate us from the rest?

Apparently, Marines seem to think Marine Corps Orders are just suggestions, because I see Marines everyday dropping off and picking up their child(ren) at an out-in-town daycare in their service utilities. When MCO P1020.34G specifically states, "enroute stops while off base are not authorized except in bonafide emergencies," while in service utilities.

More often than not, they aren't even wearing their covers as they walk to and from the building to their car.

Marine Corps orders and regulations set the standard that defines us as Marines.

If we are going to consider ourselves an elite group, we need to start holding ourselves to these higher standards.

Yes, it is hot in Japan, but do a few missing inches of fabric make it that much cooler?

Yes, it is a pain to get up and get dressed in civilian attire to drop off your child(ren) at daycare only to change into your uniform once you get to work.

And while, the other services are allowed to go out-in-town in their utilities, we are Marines.

We need to get back to adhering to Marine Corps standards.

If you were inspected by Maj. Gen. Smedley D. Butler, would he be able to find you guilty of being out of clothing regulations?

Ellie

[Petz]

nice post... I agree with this whole-heartedly.

[Old Marine]

Dress standards have really slipped from when I was active. Used to be if you went to town and wore civlian the shirt had to have a collar.

[kentmitchell]

Ever hear the term, "Raggedy Assed Marines." Check your history back to WWII, Guadalcanal.
The guys at 8th and I are paid to look and march pretty.
In the FMF we were paid to fight. I think that's still the standard.
I was inspected by MOH winner Gen. David M. Shoup, one mean Marine, when he commanded the 3rd MarDiv on Okinawa. It was about 100 degrees, our khakis (look up khakis) were soaked with sweat. He thought we were fine because the 9th Marines was the toughest outfit in the Far East. That was what we were paid to do.

[Pete0331]

Why else would the Commandant of the Marine Corps send out a message making the wearing our service utilities, out-in-town, against regulations except in cases of emergency, if not to separate us from the rest?

Apparently, Marines seem to think Marine Corps Orders are just suggestions, because I see Marines everyday dropping off and picking up their child(ren) at an out-in-town daycare in their service utilities. When MCO P1020.34G specifically states, "enroute stops while off base are not authorized except in bonafide emergencies," while in service utilities.


This is incorrect.
It is a security issue to be wearing your cammies out in town.

You are allowed to wear cammies when dropping off children at daycare.
As to the proper wear of a cover, that falls on the personal discipline of the Marine in question.

Someone needs to wake that Cpl. up.
If she wants something done it needs to start with her.

I don't dress like a slob, but it isn't 1960 and the USMC needs to realize that.
I get the particular feeling that most of the USMC doesn't pay attention when they do the Terrorism Awareness MCI.

[Pete0331]

Ever hear the term, "Raggedy Assed Marines." Check your history back to WWII, Guadalcanal.
The guys at 8th and I are paid to look and march pretty.
In the FMF we were paid to fight. I think that's still the standard.
I was inspected by MOH winner Gen. David M. Shoup, one mean Marine, when he commanded the 3rd MarDiv on Okinawa. It was about 100 degrees, our khakis (look up khakis) were soaked with sweat. He thought we were fine because the 9th Marines was the toughest outfit in the Far East. That was what we were paid to do.

I agree completely.
But on the same side of that, the quote muttered by so many LCpls: "No combat ready unit has ever passed inspection" is used to justify far to many lapses in discipline and uniform standards.

The Fleet isn't Boot Camp.
If you want it to be, go to the Drill Field and don't come back.

[William Hardy]

There was (is) a post somewhere that I already answered in regard to civilian dress. Times have changed, but not Marine Corps standards. Without getting really involved in a long explaination and trying to justify my logic, let's make it simple:

We are Marines! We looks sharp in our uniforms and take extreme pride in our appearance. Our civilian appearance should reflex the same standard. If not, you have fallen short of your goal to measure up.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Old Marine - I remember the days when the DNCO woulde not give a Liberty Card to anyone who didn't have a haircut and proper dress. Should one slip by, the MPs woulde not let them out the gate. Those days have passed us by...good-bad?..I don't know...What I do know is that Marines should have personal pride in their appearance, work, and attitude; and that is both on and off duty.

[Kegler300]

Dress standards have really slipped from when I was active. Used to be if you went to town and wore civlian the shirt had to have a collar.

And, your shirt had to be tucked in, and you had to wear a belt.

[Old Marine]

And, your shirt had to be tucked in, and you had to wear a belt.

And the DNCO made sure of this or you did not get your LIBERTY CARD.

[Petz]

that's just it... no more liberty cards.

I agree that our civies could be modernized a bit, I still think females should wear more conservative clothing... low-cut shirts are probably the only thing you can find now-a-days... but it can have sleeves, the shorts can be half-way down her thigh... it doesn't need to be just under her butt cheek.

the guys can have cloths that fix, and when possible have a collar but other than that, keep it from looking eccentric in nature... regardless of style.

I can't make you buy certain civilian attire, but I can make you wear your service uniform off base...

[Supersquishy]

. the shorts can be half-way down her thigh... it doesn't need to be just under her butt cheek.

...

Hey whats wrong with that, unless there up there in pounds...lol

[Petz]

because... even though I'd probably be guilty of staring at them... we're trying to maintain a level of civilian clothing conservatism. if a guy can't show his ass with baggy pants then a girl can't show her ass from too short pants.

[Isrowei]

I prefer classy of slutty any day personnally.

But yeah, there are plenty of places a girl can go is she wants to dress like a skank. The PX doesn't have to be one. Same for guys though. Nice jeans and a clean shirt shouldn't be too much to ask.

[Petz]

of course it could sir!!! why would we do laundry in the Marine Corps?!

but it's hard to police kids when not in uniform... and when I say hard I mean... them getting lippy and trying to point something out about you... then you need to pound their face in.... :D

[Isrowei]

True, true.

[William Hardy]

SSGT Petzold - You are preaching to the chior....the one's that you are trying to get through to are sleeping in the pews.

I have learned that it is very hard to get through to the younger generation...personal appearance in uniform or in civilian attire reflects that person's personality. You can show personal pride and confidence in yourself or tell everyone you could care less. You can show you are a mature adult or in immature imbecile. PERSONAL APPEARANCE IS IMPORTANT.

LT - I take it you meant over and not of?

[Petz]

gunny, I am pretty sure the photo on the right there is of you in the nam... but I have to say... it's reminiscent of the beverly hillbillies.....

[Isrowei]

LT - I take it you meant over and not of?

Aye, oops.

[jerryk]

when i was in you better look right on liberty or the mp,s would take you back to base and you shore didnt get lippy with one either

[William Hardy]

SSGT Petzold - You're not too far off....As I recall, they (the writers) said Jed was from Tennessee...since I live in Tennessee...guilty as charged....LOL Truth be said, while were talking about...

[Sgt Leprechaun]

Yep. I recall those days as well. At Subic Bay, PI, if you tried to come back in the main gate after a nite 'on the town', out of 'proper civilian attire', you got 'gigged' at the gate (I still have the old offense reports on Marines to prove it LOL) for not wearing a belt, improper shirts, cut off shorts, etc. They got their Libo cards yanked after getting picked up by the DNCO. That was a pretty bad punishment THERE for sure.

Stateside I can recall plenty of Marines getting a 'talking to' out in town by SNCOs for improper civilian attire, although we didn't have liberty cards.

This debate has been going on for well nigh 20 years (or more).

And yes, I'd pass a liberty muster when I 'go out in town'. And yes, as an NCO I corrected Marines who looked like they were 'back on the block', and most of them were none too happy about it, either. But it's what we are supposed to DO, and who we ARE, dangit.

[redman1]

Good Thread, Ellie
Being a Marine took for me and I still act and look like a Marine. I owe everything to the Corps.
Semper Fi Redman1

[Marine1955]

The one thing I loved and remember was the liberty card, cause you had to be squared away before you could get one and they would inspect you prior to going to town. If you didn't have the civilian clothes to where you wore your uniform and it had to be the right one for the day and time of the year.I may not look like I did but I remember what went on there.

[Warbyrd13]

This is incorrect.
It is a security issue to be wearing your cammies out in town.

You are allowed to wear cammies when dropping off children at daycare.
As to the proper wear of a cover, that falls on the personal discipline of the Marine in question.

Someone needs to wake that Cpl. up.
If she wants something done it needs to start with her.

I don't dress like a slob, but it isn't 1960 and the USMC needs to realize that.
I get the particular feeling that most of the USMC doesn't pay attention when they do the Terrorism Awareness MCI.

Pete brought up some good points on this subject.

Marines can wear jeans and a shirt and have a normal squared away apperance. You don't need a collared shirt to be squared away. I wear pants that are a little baggy but then again I like to have a comfortable feel in my pants. I wear button down shirts or t-shirts when i go out. I have only recently began to were slacks and a collared shirt becuase that is what we wear at the office. I do not wear oversized clothes or let my boxers hang out. I did correct the idiots who did. Fashion fads is not what we do in the Marines. Wearing of civy clothes out in town is a privilage not a right. There has been several Marines restricted to thier service uniforms beucase they could not adhere to proper standerds.

The Cpl who wrote this article needs to do thier research more on where we can wear utlity uniform at. But then again it seems to flip flop every couple years.

And Pete brings up a good point. We should be aware of our surroundings and how we dress and how we act becuase you realy never know who is watching you. In today's day and age we should blend in our area more and make it harder for people to know we a military if they are targeting military personal. Just food for thought.

[Wheels123]

Ever hear the term, "Raggedy Assed Marines." Check your history back to WWII, Guadalcanal.
The guys at 8th and I are paid to look and march pretty.
In the FMF we were paid to fight. I think that's still the standard.
I was inspected by MOH winner Gen. David M. Shoup, one mean Marine, when he commanded the 3rd MarDiv on Okinawa. It was about 100 degrees, our khakis (look up khakis) were soaked with sweat. He thought we were fine because the 9th Marines was the toughest outfit in the Far East. That was what we were paid to do.


The Medal of Honor isn't something you win. It is something you are awarded.

[Rowdy1948]

Looks like a lot of things have changed since i was in 60s and 70s seems like the dress code has slipped a little which i don't agree with. semper Fi.

[William Hardy]

If it's not one thing, it's another..I already posted how I felt, but just to give a few examples....
Back in the 60s-70s haircuts were a big issue with all the long hair hippies running around...it was easy to tell military from civilian. Today it's different...lots of civilians wear short or bald styles.
There was also the issue too - short trousers...lot's of Marines use to get gigged for it, but the civilian fashion was high quarters so you could show that your socks matched your shirt.
Point is..times change and proper civilian dress changes with it.....

A Marine has to draw the line and not go overboard...sagging paints and showing your butt crack...goes for female Marines also..don't dress the tramp...make yourself and the Corps proud so that 30 or 40 years down the line you can log on tell your story of how squared away you were.

[Warbyrd13]

The Medal of Honor isn't something you win. It is something you are awarded.


Maybe the Cpl who wrote this has not have the privlage in meeting Col Fox yet and asked that question. like i said the Cpl needs to do more research on the subject.

And to be honest we are talking about what soceity deems proper wear for men and women. i am afriad to think what people will be wearing 50 years from now. Considering men used to have long hair and wear earings. grooming and clothes keep changing during time so people shouldn't get too worked up about it.

We can always look at the fashion designers and the people who promote those people. Just think about all the gay men that design the clothes for men and women. All the rich people who have too much time and money on thier hands that debate what looks good. to be honest these people are a joke.


A good pair of pants, shoes and a shirt is all you need. Nothing more or nothing less.

[nvusmcsgt]

I think a lot of this has to do with the leadership in the Marine Corps. If our leadership allows for these Marines to get away with it then we need to do something about the leadership. We all know that some people push the limit just to see where the limit is. If they keep getting away with it they will continue to push further and further. NCO's and up need to start laying the smack down a little more and reel in the knuckleheads. Semper Fi

[jdelapaz]

I have found even recruiters while in uniform violating all our protocols and traditions. That is sad.

[Achped]

Are you guys kidding? "We should try to dress less like military so we don't stand out?"

I'm 6'4", white, with short hair and no beard or earrings in Hawaii. I could be wearing *ANYTHING* and they will immediately know I'm military. The only difference is Marines dress appropriately, white the Army, Navy, and Air Force are "back on the block" when they go out in town.

[Petz]

Achped, you have a great point... and it's universal around the world with military.

now that kids are starting to have the long shaggy zack effron hair we are standing out more and more again.

dressing appropriately is not going to make us stick out any more than we already do.

[William Hardy]

Achped and Petzold - I accept your point...who said we don't need to stand out? Achped is correct about appearance...there is only one group of military people I know of that do not stand out in public...At Ft. Bragg I was in Intel School and we had a couple of Delta Force guys in our class. On post it was easy to spot them...they were the only ones with long hair and civilian clothes. Once they left the post, they blended in well. The rest of the Special Forces and others had short hair and strutted on and off post...just like Marines on liberty...I just think that Marines should look sharp on or off post...show your pride on and off duty. I don't think trying to blend in should enter the picture.

Back in my day we were not allowed to wear utilities off post except for going to and from work if we lived off base. During the gas shortage back in 73-75 we were given permission to stop for gas and was able to get out pump it ourselves. It was the only exception that I know of...get caught by another Marine and a butt chewing was in order as a minimum...some even went before the man. There was no terrorist threats then....the CG just wanted his Marines to project a good image in town. If you were in your Greens or Trops you were good to go or even your Khakis...but never utilities or overalls for the MT, mechanics, and air crews.

[Petz]

that's how it is now gunny... it's just some kids want to wear the cloths they had in high school.

and they wonder why so many Marines are jobless when they get out... they can't present a decent personal image... they wear loose baggy cloths with all sorts of glitter and writing on them... they wear jerseys when a game isn't on... it's pretty sad in my book.

keep in mind, I said when a game isn't on... and then there's times that it's not even that sports season...

[Pete0331]

Achped, you have a great point... and it's universal around the world with military.

now that kids are starting to have the long shaggy zack effron hair we are standing out more and more again.

dressing appropriately is not going to make us stick out any more than we already do.

My favorite topic!
Hair length and its relevance in the modern age!

There are ways to blend in.
If you can't do it with a bad haircut then you probably can't do it that well with a decent haircut either.
It has more to do with personal mannerisms then it does with appearance.
Hair is a part of the uniform, just remember that.

[Supersquishy]

My favorite topic!
Hair length and its relevance in the modern age!

There are ways to blend in.
If you can't do it with a bad haircut then you probably can't do it that well with a decent haircut either.
It has more to do with personal mannerisms then it does with appearance.
Hair is a part of the uniform, just remember that.

Had a kid come into my office, He had a goatee but short hair, but after 2 minutes of talking to him I knew right away by his mannerisms that he was in the Service, I asked him and he said he is in the Army. I bit my lip about his goatee, he knew I was a Marine right away too, but we BSed for a long time, good kid, just unsat in the grooming standards...LOL

[Petz]

well... if he's reserves he can have whatever he wants till drill...

you'd be surprised how many ultra low reg, "off the ear" haircuts there are in the reserves.... I sometimes ask, why not have a decent fade and be done with it?

they say 'cause then they can tell it's not a fresh haircut 'cause the sides are longer.... I just shook my head and walked away.

you know, they said gradual fade... didn't say from where as long as it's off the ears.

[Shrink]

The Medal of Honor isn't something you win. It is something you are awarded.

You may be interested in knowing that then Colonel David Monroe Shoup, the CO of the 8th Marines on Tarawa, was awarded the Navy Cross for that action.

Subsequently, after WW II ended, a review board was established to consider whether Navy/Marine types had earned their fair share of medals, and in particular, the MOH. At that point in time it was determined that Shoup's Navy Cross should be raised to the MOH.

I knew General Shoup....well. Several times weekly between June of 1961 I faced him across a table some 4' wide while briefing him on an item that was on the agenda of the Joint Chiefs of Staff that day that had logistic implications. At the time CMC was not a "Member" per se of the JCS. However, he could declare that the Marine Corps was in "Direct Concern" on any agenda item, and enter the debate in the "Tank." (Where the JCS met in the Pentagon.) On one occasion I had, in Shoup's opinion, slighted the then Sec Def Robert McNamara during my brief. Shoup then chewed me out royally, and you haven't been really chewed out unless CMC himself does the chewing. Normally Shoup was very easy on officers of less than Colonel ranks. The latter seemed to always draw Shoup's ire, while the rest of the peons who briefed him, only a few Majors as I was at the time, or the LtsCol of which there were many were obviously not considered to have sufficient intelligence to appreciate a good chewing.

However, in the case I cited where Shoup gave me the business, I believed then and I still do that when he was through huffing and puffing he felt a little ashamed of himself. After all, what the hell could he expect from the lesser ranks but sheer ineptitude? Whatever, he turned back to me and said "Now young man, do you have anything else funny to say?" My reply was that "No Sir, not at the present time, but I'm was born in Indiana just as you were, and if you'll give me a minute I'll think of something." Everyone in attendance turned white, and that included about 25% of the General Officers in the Corps, waiting to see if Shoup was going to execute me on the spot. However, after a very tense few seconds Shoup sort of grinned, and the matter was over....for then. But every time afterwards that I moved to the table to brief him he always said something like "And here comes the funny man. Do you have anything funny to tell me today?"

On the last day that Shoup was going to attend a JCS meeting in late December of 1963m he appeared in uniform, which was something of a shock since the Chiefs usually wore civvies. When he marched in with his retinue of aides and other horse holders, he sat down and began to pat his pockets, finally declaring that he'd forgotten his glasses. Several Generals and a big Flock of Colonels jumped straight in the air and began to beat feet to get Shoup's glasses. However, then LtGen Wallace Greene, who had been Shoup's Chief of Staff for the past four years, was present. Shoup turned to General Greene, who would succeed him in three days as CMC and said something like: "The rest of you stand fast. I want Wally to get them for me." And LtGen Greene jumped up and walked down to CMC's office and returned with the glasses. Shoup didn't even bother to thank him.
Respectfully, Semper Fidelis, Sully

[Warbyrd13]

If we are going to bring up grooming standerds about a clean shave and short hair that is simple to address.

The reason for short hair is hygeine, lice, fleas and its easier to wash short hair compared to long hair.

Clean Shave- That is so you get a good seal on your gas mask.

I posted ealier that "fashion standerds", clothes and hair styles change over time. If you look in the past on what was in style and compared it to today people wore some wierd stuff in the past. And people probaly will think the same about us in the future on what we wear now.

Some people want to get all anal about hair cuts, colared shirts an stuff. But to be honest all you need is a good pair of pants, shirt and you are fine. Everyone here has thier preferance on what a Marine should wear.

I am more comfortable in a pair of black jeans and a t shirt than I am in dress slacks and a colared shirt. Some people like to wear ties. Some people prefer "low regs" and others prefer shaved heads.

This topic will go on and on becuse everyone has a preferance on things however the grooming standerds state 0-3 inches with a fade for hair cuts. it may have changed but that was the last i knew of.

The general deal with civy clothes is a converstaive apperance similar to a charlie uniform.
Other people add to it on their own personal preferance to these standerds. This is off topic but it shows what I am talking about.

Here is an example:
RCT-6
Taking leave.
Sumbit normal paper work through MOL and await feedback. 5 or 10 day

2nd MARDIV
Taking leave.
Training has to be up to date ie PFT, Rifle, Swim Qual and BST and your rilfe must be cleaned.
Liberty brief package- you have to be counseled by Plt Sgt or SNCOIC.
Map quest with directions to destination-
5 paragraph order on what you plan on doing on leave to include
-rest stops on the way.
-what your plans on for leave
-any special events you may have planned.
-You are required to brief your SNCOIC, OIC and 1st Sgt and CO or XO before they approve.
-Seat belt waivier
-PPE brief for motorcycle waiver.
-Plane ticket bought in advance.
-Hotels you planed on staying at.
It will take about 3 to 5 days to get all this infomation togehter and written out.
I honestly laughed when the Plt Sgt told me I had to fill all this out. I thought he was joking with me until he handed me the "leave package". But the good news was since I was taking terminal leave that was differant and I did not have to fill out all those forms and provide all that infomation thankfully.

[Petz]

and that's why they standardized leave requests on MOL now.... no more of that unit specific crap.

Itineraries have always been a requirement as junior Marines may drive farther than they safely can... not that we wanted to see hotel reservations or anything, but taking 5 days of leave when you are suppose to take 3 days driving one way is a red flag... it's ORM.

we don't want to lose our Marines in an accident when it could be avoided.

as for training, and cleaning of the rifle.... come on... I've cleaned my rifle so well it was taken the first time at the armory after the range... then 6 months later (I never checked it out) the armory puts a kill roster for dirty weapons.... mine had so much carbon on it I refused to clean it... armory said they won't take it back so I took it to my CO... asked him his armory is jacked up... either they accepted it this dirty after the range (which makes them jacked up) or they lent it out and didn't make that person clean it (which makes them jacked up) and I told him I refuse to clean a weapon when it's mandatory to clean it before it's checked in... either way, it's the Armories responsibility now, not mine.

he sent me back and told me he'll give them a call... when I got back they called everyone up to the window and had them hand them in... the Armorers were going to have a long night.

[Warbyrd13]

SSgt P,

I agrea with you on the ORM when a Marine submits for leave. That is normal and the Cpls and Sgts will have that issue taken care of if people are doing thier jobs correctly.

But before you was allowed to submit your leave request in MOL you had to do that package or the 1stSgt and CO would not approve of your leave. This was what 2nd MARDIV was doing. To me it was a waste of time and paper but becuase there were soo many deaths after people returned from deployments this was a "solution". this was the policy when i left in 2008.

This was part of the circle jerk paper work and made up policies I had to deal with when I got back in Feb 2008. In between combat leave, TAPS/TAMS the whole checking in/out(out of RCT-6 to Comm Co 2ndMARDIV then check out then check out with main Admin office) all of us who extended for the deployments could not stand the stupid crap we had to deal with.

I had to go to the Sgt Major about this crap for myself and those other Marines who had to check in a unit then check out so we could check out again for our terminal leave paper work. I had no pateince for this becuase my daughter had an upcoming surgery and I nearly missed that becuase inefficent policies between the unit and the main admin office. There were 15 of us in the same boat and we were not happy about the whole deal.

Thankfuly the issue was adressed and I was able to be home on time for my daughter's surgery and I beleive they fixed the whole (check in to check out to check out to leave) issue also. But that was more of a MEF admin vs Div admin policy crap deal. I ended up going on leave a week later than I had planned and that was a fun thing to explain to my wife. But everything was good at least my severance pay went through without problems.

I have had the same problems from time to time as a Plt Sgt when we would do our monthly weapons cleaning and no one was sent to the range that month but several of our weapons had alot of carbon on them or when people had to check out thier weapon and it was loaned to someone becuase of lack of spare weapons. That was always a fun fight with the armory personal.