View Full Version : Pistol Range Tips
I got orders to the Pistol Range and to be honest I've shot about 3-4 different kinds of pistols, but nothing like an M9/92FS, and never in any official position like Weaver or Iso (which I'm sure they teach since it was in the MCI). Now like rifle marksmanship I'm damn sure the fundamentals of breathing and trigger control and a good platform all apply, but is there anything important only encountered on the M9 I may run into?
I figured I'd ask and cull multiple sources, I also have a few friends who were LA County Sheriffs and both were competition shooters in SASS (I know its Cowboy guns, but those fundamentals transition seamlessly) that are subject matter experts when it comes to shooting positions with pistols. And luckily we have a Marine thats "sort of TAD" to the range as a coach, but I have to be lucky enough to catch him to get pointers, or I'll luck out and actually be able to ask him "on location."
I culled in the search but couldn't turn up much information so I "may" be the first to ask but if I ain't, then I didn't look hard enough. Thanks in advance!
jackson07
07-22-09, 12:41 AM
I would say hit the target. If you get all your rounds on the target you will qual. Otherwise follow the fundamentals you have been taught and what you learned in the MCI. Also you can go to Iron Sights and get some practice with the M9. See if your unit has a coach or someone who has qualled expert a few times on the pistol range and take them with you. If you shoot on Wilcox you get two days of about 100 rounds each day to practice, then you qual on day 3. Also one last tip.. take your time. You have plenty of time to get all your rounds off, so take your time and relax.
Hope I helped a bit.
yeah... the way they have everyone on-line... don't be that LT who shot the man to his left.....
just follow the range safety rules and everything will be fine.
Pete0331
07-22-09, 01:03 AM
I got orders to the Pistol Range and to be honest I've shot about 3-4 different kinds of pistols, but nothing like an M9/92FS, and never in any official position like Weaver or Iso (which I'm sure they teach since it was in the MCI). Now like rifle marksmanship I'm damn sure the fundamentals of breathing and trigger control and a good platform all apply, but is there anything important only encountered on the M9 I may run into?
I figured I'd ask and cull multiple sources, I also have a few friends who were LA County Sheriffs and both were competition shooters in SASS (I know its Cowboy guns, but those fundamentals transition seamlessly) that are subject matter experts when it comes to shooting positions with pistols. And luckily we have a Marine thats "sort of TAD" to the range as a coach, but I have to be lucky enough to catch him to get pointers, or I'll luck out and actually be able to ask him "on location."
I culled in the search but couldn't turn up much information so I "may" be the first to ask but if I ain't, then I didn't look hard enough. Thanks in advance!
Contact member 'thewookie' he was a shooting instructor.
I swear to god, I will go there and beat you if I find out you use the Weaver stance.
He is a quick tip, a good portion of your stability comes from the strength of you forearms. If you get them strong it will also help with controlling recoil.
Sergeant M
07-22-09, 01:46 AM
I use the weaver from the 25 yd line. Learn the difference between Single Action and Double Action. Listen to the tower. Listen to your coach. Don't be afraid of the weapon.
that first shot from a double sucks balls... but as long as the rest are good you'll ace it.
Sergeant M
07-22-09, 01:56 AM
All shots from the 25 yd line are single action. From the 7 and 15 yd line, the first shot of each drill will be double action. I was the tower for rifle and pistol range about 6 months ago.
Thanks everyone.
Shooting Single and Double should be interesting. IIRC Double will be a harder trigger pull since its working the hammer instead of just releasing it.
KawiGunny
07-22-09, 07:31 AM
Double action with the m-9 is really pretty easy. Be fast out of the holster and getting your pistol up in position. Quickly get your sights set and then slowly squeeze the trigger for the first round. Not to slow but still slow. I always start my trigger pull while getting my sight alignment and sight picture. Saves a little time but you have to know your pistol trigger pull good before attempting this. If you have a good stance and grip, your sights will settle quickly and you can squeeze off the next round quickly and still make the time. Works for me and I used to teach that method to the the ASF (Auxilary Security Force) when I ran the ASF Academy for the Navy in the Mid-Atlantic Region.
"Listen to your coach". Is some terrible advice. The coaches I've ran across have known less about pistol/rifle shooting than your average girl scout.
KawiGunny
07-22-09, 07:53 AM
"Listen to your coach". Is some terrible advice. The coaches I've ran across have known less about pistol/rifle shooting than your average girl scout.
Come on now. Be nice. They are taught the basics and thats it. Some don't have the experience that some of their shooters have and that doesn't help. However, they are trained to help with the basics. It's up to you to make any mods that might work better for you.
Take your time. New shooters tend to rush through so fast they have fired all their shots, benched or holstered the weapon and are just standing there waiting for the rest of the relay to finish. Walk down range and it looks like someone shot their target with a shotgun. Take your time. It might take a practice day or two to get a feel for what the right tempo to use is. If you have a 10 round course of fire and shoot 9 bullseyes and have a saved round it is still better than a bunch of 7, 6, 5, miss.
thewookie
07-22-09, 10:36 AM
Listen to your coach -- he'll have the best advice based on what he or she can see. But that's to take nothing from the the advice already given here.
Trigger pull is the name of the game, especially the first DA shot with the M9. The twenty five yard-line you can overcome that by cocking the hammer. From the 7 and 15 yard line when you start the drill from what's was called the "hunt" or having the pistol pointed downrange at a 45 degree angle. For those drills I start pressing or prepping the trigger as soon as I hear the words "targets" from the tower or I can see the targets turn -- at the same time I'm raising the pistol to acquire my sights. By prepping the trigger while you're bringing the sights up to your eyes, you're taking some of the slack out of the trigger, and that will help to eliminate some of the anticipation and trigger slap problems that happen to some shooters.
Another thing I'll add for the rapid and speed reload drills is related to your grip. I'm fond of a hard and heavy pistol grip, opposed to a loose or "relaxed" pistol grip. This comes from doing a lot of failure type drills over the years where fast and accurate follow-up is key. When I first started shooting pistol in the Marine Corps I was taught a loose and relaxed grip, but most of the best pistol teachers/shooters out there promote a strong and heavy pistol grip. The reason for this is because it helps to control the recoil of the pistol and keep your sights on target for follow-up purposes. And transitioning that type of pistol grip to a static line and for pistol qualification purposes also plays a critical role in shooting the 7 and 15 yard line well. IMHO
The rest your coach will say, over, and over again,,, the key is to listen to them. If you tune them out and think you know it all before you do you will have a pizza box to show for it. Be humble and listen. For a coach it's very easy to see what their pistol shooters are doing wrong, much more so then with a rifle.
Good luck, have fun, and another thing don't count - or you'll lose. You know how many shots you're dropping, don't be so worried about your score; once you know and can apply the fundamentals it's all mental.
egbutler1
07-22-09, 11:00 AM
What works for me not everybody was a nice lose grip on with my lower fingers and tight death grip up high on the pistol grip with my thumbs and pointer fingers. But than again I carried this weapon as my secondary weapon for 4 years in the Marines and got a lot of practice to develop my skills. I was taught a heavy tight grip at first which works great but I eventually figured out what worked for me. I also had to learn speed drills and shooting with both eyes open and not taking time to aim perfectly. Since my pistol was my back up and used for tight spaces in CQB. Never shot less than a 360 on the range out of 400 for the M9. Just be comfortable with it. Anticipating the shot is 10x worse with a pistol than a rifle and that will throw your shot off hard core with a rifle too. Since you can see the hammer coming back in double action and feel it heading forward in single action you tend to anticipate. Best way I solved that was to hold my pistol out and have someone balance a quarter on top of it and pulling the trigger and dry fire. Objective is to keep the quarter from falling off while using site picture and all that jazz. Other than that listen to your coach. KILL!!
bmanley
07-22-09, 11:48 AM
I've got a funny story but it worked to fix the guys problem in the end. We were doing some pratice shoots and the instructor was keeping an eye on everybody pointing out things he say wrong and stuff. Well he was working to help a friend of mine, having him try differant things but nothing seem to be helping. After we shoot a round the instructor told him I don't know what you did that round but all your shots were right in there. Mike turned and didn't want to say what had changed but then told us he forgot to put his right ear plug back in before that round so he was trying to hold his ear down on his shoulder to cover it. Made everybody laugh but it showed him he needed to get a better look down his sights.
My only advise would be you need to listen to the coach and most of all you need to be comfortable when you are squeezing the trigger.
Listen to your coach -- he'll have the best advice based on what he or she can see. But that's to take nothing from the the advice already given here.
Trigger pull is the name of the game, especially the first DA shot with the M9. The twenty five yard-line you can overcome that by cocking the hammer. From the 7 and 15 yard line when you start the drill from what's was called the "hunt" or having the pistol pointed downrange at a 45 degree angle. For those drills I start pressing or prepping the trigger as soon as I hear the words "targets" from the tower or I can see the targets turn -- at the same time I'm raising the pistol to acquire my sights. By prepping the trigger while you're bringing the sights up to your eyes, you're taking some of the slack out of the trigger, and that will help to eliminate some of the anticipation and trigger slap problems that happen to some shooters.
Another thing I'll add for the rapid and speed reload drills is related to your grip. I'm fond of a hard and heavy pistol grip, opposed to a loose or "relaxed" pistol grip. This comes from doing a lot of failure type drills over the years where fast and accurate follow-up is key. When I first started shooting pistol in the Marine Corps I was taught a loose and relaxed grip, but most of the best pistol teachers/shooters out there promote a strong and heavy pistol grip. The reason for this is because it helps to control the recoil of the pistol and keep your sights on target for follow-up purposes. And transitioning that type of pistol grip to a static line and for pistol qualification purposes also plays a critical role in shooting the 7 and 15 yard line well. IMHO
The rest your coach will say, over, and over again,,, the key is to listen to them. If you tune them out and think you know it all before you do you will have a pizza box to show for it. Be humble and listen. For a coach it's very easy to see what their pistol shooters are doing wrong, much more so then with a rifle.
Good luck, have fun, and another thing don't count - or you'll lose. You know how many shots you're dropping, don't be so worried about your score; once you know and can apply the fundamentals it's all mental.
Amen excellent advice all around. My biggest enemy on the range is relaxation. In Boot I was all nerves got a 209 and a pizza box to show for it. Somehow I went back the next time and got an Expert to take home. The next time I got all hung up on shooting my 2nd Award that I missed it by 3 points. This year I got all into my "shooting" zone and didn't pay attention to ANYTHING other than breathing and squeezing, and it payed off big.
Slack elimination is always my biggest concern with anything, shooting competition air rifle, those suckers have a lot of slack and taking and not taking it off is a big difference, when we were more senior shooters our coach told us to shoot both ways so we would see the difference.
Like most I hear the Double Action is the hardest with the delayed and longer trigger pull. I guess some anticipate the snap release of the hammer in single when its not going to happen. As for grip I grew up with some lightweights (A Makarov is 9x18 and for kicks one mag out of a Walther P-38) But lately I've become accustomed to my M1911A1 (WW2 GI styled). Which I dunno if it'll help/hinder/not do a thing for me but those weapons you can't slack wrist or grip at all, they like to stovepipe if you don't have a good hold of them or get all limp wristed. But hopefully handling a heavier and more powerful weapon will give me some strength/endurance on a lighter one.
And don't worry. When I'm "In the Zone" I take my coaches words for it. I just hope I get enough snap-in and practice time (supposedly Friday we learn and snap-in, Monday we shoot 2 practice Courses, Tuesday is one practice course and Wednesday is qual.) to get a feel for it. Like I said I never shot in any "official" position.
Once again thanks for the pointers all.
Sergeant M
07-22-09, 07:40 PM
Double action with the m-9 is really pretty easy. Be fast out of the holster and getting your pistol up in position. Quickly get your sights set and then slowly squeeze the trigger for the first round.
Your pistol will be drawn before "targets" is called. It will sound something likes this, "That __ Relay step up to your firing points and assume the alert carry, this will be your 25 yard line slow fire, firing one magazine of 15 rounds in the time limit of 10 minutes. All shots will be fired using single action. Upon completion of this stage of fire, unload show clear, holster a condition 4 weapon, fill that empty magazine with 8 rounds and stand behind your firing point. You may commence firing once your TARGETS appear."
thewookie
07-22-09, 09:31 PM
"Listen to your coach". Is some terrible advice. The coaches I've ran across have known less about pistol/rifle shooting than your average girl scout.
C'mon Devil Dog, did somebody p*ss on your cheerios this morning, why the sour attitude.
I'm sure you have the ten percent out there.
I used to teach at PMI school, not just me but I was one of the instructors that taught other Marines how to be pistol and rifle coaches/instructors, so I take offense to that statement. The Marines that we awarded the MOS of 8531 were no slouches; they were required to be experts in both rifle and pistol, were well trained in range procedures, and most importantly knew what to look for and how to fix MOST problem shooters. I emphasize MOST because some shooters are know-it-all-pains-in-the-azzes. Plus they can't help everyone, some shooters are simply rocks and/or non-shooting focks.
But, just like any job - a cook, a candle stick maker, a grunt or a range coach - you always have your 10 percent. But most of them are trying to help. It's the shooters job to apply. Hmm, reminds me of something Bruce Lee said....."Knowing is not enough, we must apply. Willing is not enough, we must do."
Hmm, reminds me of something Bruce Lee said....."Knowing is not enough, we must apply. Willing is not enough, we must do."
I like that one... I'm stealing it from you and Bruce Lee ("Become Water" is always one of my favorite speeches!)
KawiGunny
07-23-09, 07:45 AM
Your pistol will be drawn before "targets" is called. It will sound something likes this, "That __ Relay step up to your firing points and assume the alert carry, this will be your 25 yard line slow fire, firing one magazine of 15 rounds in the time limit of 10 minutes. All shots will be fired using single action. Upon completion of this stage of fire, unload show clear, holster a condition 4 weapon, fill that empty magazine with 8 rounds and stand behind your firing point. You may commence firing once your TARGETS appear."
So there is no more 2 shot quick drills requiring the shooter to come from the holster?
jackson07
07-23-09, 08:10 AM
No there is Gunny. That was just an example of firing at the 25. You still do double shot speed drills at the 7 and the 15.
KawiGunny
07-23-09, 08:28 AM
No there is Gunny. That was just an example of firing at the 25. You still do double shot speed drills at the 7 and the 15.
Thought so. Thats what I was talking about when coming from the holster fast but Cpl M posted a slow fire sequense with my post. I retired 3/08 so wasn't sure what had changed since then on the pistol qual. Thanks!
http://www.marines.mil/news/publications/Documents/MCO%203574.2K.pdf
I have a thing with researching stuff a lot. They have the course of fire though to me its partially Greek. But I will find out tomorrow during the classes. Thanks again!
Table 3 and 4 for rifle sound interesting but being a Winger I probably won't get to shoot them unless I go to the range. I saw them shooting Table 3 while doing "combat conditioning" in full gear. They make you earn that Pith from what I see! So I can see why some coaches are very protective of their job and why most do good at it.
FistFu68
07-23-09, 11:43 AM
:evilgrin: Become the Pistol :evilgrin: :iwo:
Sergeant M
07-24-09, 12:07 AM
So there is no more 2 shot quick drills requiring the shooter to come from the holster?
The command here in okinawa is "You will return to the alert, placing the weapon on safe between each drill."
So there shouldn't be any drawing from the holster as part of your time limit.
jackson07
07-24-09, 01:04 AM
The command here in okinawa is "You will return to the alert, placing the weapon on safe between each drill."
So there shouldn't be any drawing from the holster as part of your time limit.
Same here. 2 shot drills are from the alert.
Pete0331
07-24-09, 01:52 AM
The command here in okinawa is "You will return to the alert, placing the weapon on safe between each drill."
So there shouldn't be any drawing from the holster as part of your time limit.
Here is a little pistol trivia for you.
The "safety" on the M9 wasn't designed as such.
It was designed to be a decocking lever.
The real safety was meant to be the long and hard trigger pull.
Here are a little shooting stance tips I have from shooting.
High grip on the pistol, you want to keep your hands and arms as close to the center line of bore as possible so that you can properly maintain control in recoil.
Thumbs need to be pointed forward to the target.
The index finger of the left hand if you're a right handed shooter) does not loop around the outside of the trigger guard.
That does not help with recoil.
Your finger will slip off the trigger guard in recoil, meaning it will have no effect on better control.
Dry fire as much as possible.
It does help if you do it properly and you correct the problems you identify.
Do it in front of a friend.
Get you game face on, have a target at the proper distance and go through the entire course of fire.
Then have you friend help out with any problems he sees with trigger manipulation, stance, etc.
Painting you sights does help.
I have used neon green with good results.