Group Therapy

[DocGreek]

After attending several different groups over the past 26 years, I've come to a few personal conclusions. The V.A. needs to establish a much better system of stepping PTSD patients through different groups...and STICK TO IT!! There has to be a very supportive starting point that won't intimidate newcomers. The following group should NOT be entered into until the Vet completely understands the five "W's"...who, what, when, where, and WHY ME!! Counselors HAVE to be Combat Vets, to enable a smooth transition into "acceptness" of the PTSD symptoms, by the Vets. Establishing a "Brotherhood" bond in the group is a primary goal. Let that particular group go through the acceptness process...together. IT WORKS! If YOU are having trouble with your PTSD symptoms, PM me, and I'll LISTEN, try to put you on the right "road", and give you ALL my support...THAT is why I became a Corpsman!....SEMPER FI....Doc Greek

[FistFu68]

:usmc: I totally agree with the Counselors having 2 Be "Combat Veterans" no if's and's or but's :usmc: :iwo:

[montana]

here here.....went to counseling....although both had been in the service...neather were in combat....hard to tell them what you are feeling....and inpossable for them to know

[Riven37]

It all depends on who is running the group. There are good counselors, and there are bad counselors. My counselor was a bad counselor that's why I no longer have a group to go to any more. I was a former peer of his, and I was a better counselor than he was therefore kill the cancer and I was dropped by the VA to all my groups, and psych. Today, I am back to the first step " Don't mean nothing" !!!

[RhodeIsland]

Can't do PTSD Group Doc. I won't talk about anything in a group session, that is why I only do 1 on 1 with my Shrink and Physcotherapist and some times even then I am still quiet at times and to make matters worse, they are not even Veterans.
It's like Catholic Priests doing Marraige counseling.
If you ain't been there or done that how can you know or give advice???

Good point Doc.

Semper Fi,
Rocky

[Shrink]

After attending several different groups over the past 26 years, I've come to a few personal conclusions. The V.A. needs to establish a much better system of stepping PTSD patients through different groups...and STICK TO IT!! There has to be a very supportive starting point that won't intimidate newcomers. The following group should NOT be entered into until the Vet completely understands the five "W's"...who, what, when, where, and WHY ME!! Counselors HAVE to be Combat Vets, to enable a smooth transition into "acceptness" of the PTSD symptoms, by the Vets. Establishing a "Brotherhood" bond in the group is a primary goal. Let that particular group go through the acceptness process...together. IT WORKS! If YOU are having trouble with your PTSD symptoms, PM me, and I'll LISTEN, try to put you on the right "road", and give you ALL my support...THAT is why I became a Corpsman!....SEMPER FI....Doc Greek

Roger your last, Doc. But where in Hades are counselors available for hire who have both been in the S..T and also have the necessary scholastic background to moderate a group? I'd be the first to say that it doesn't take an MA or Ph.D. in Psychology for a moderator to be effective. Maybe six months of intensive study and supervised practice could produce a moderator who was also a combat vet with sufficient skills to serve both as a PTSD counselor and supervise group sessions with PTSD sufferers. Simply being a combat vet does not make one automatically effective in what would be a semi-clinical role.

The work I've done in therapy with PTSD'ers has been extensive. Should anyone have read my bona-fides they are aware that I entered the practice of psychology rather late in life. I was 52 before I became fully licensed to practice as an LCP (Licensed Consulting Psychologist.) As some of you are aware, there was no such diagnosis as PTSD until the publication of the
Diagnostic & Statistical Manual II in 1980.

Regardless of not having been "invented" until 1980, I came out of WW II and the Chinese Civil War with what I now recognize as many of the diagnostic criteria that we now call PTSD. By the time I came home from Korea I had what I would call many if not all the florid symptoms of PTSD. In spite of that I believe that I functioned well as both a troop commander and senior staff officer during my tour in Viet Nam.

Interesting subject when you think that I'd guess every one of the senior officers in both Korea and Viet Nam had exhibited many of the factoids listed in the diagnostic criteria for PTSD.

Given the choice, I prefer to do individual rather than Group Therapy. The latter soon becomes, if the Moderator of the Group doesn't keep a very tight rein, simply "story" sessions where one member of the Group does his best to tell the most horrible story he can conjure up.

The most frequent comment I've gotten over the years from vets is that if the therapist has not "walked the walk," even though he can "talk the talk," the veteran will almost always deal with him/her as someone who can't possibly understand where the vet is coming from.

During my "working years" as a LCP (Licensed Consulting Psychologist) I probably did well over one hundred C&P (Compensation and Pension) examinations for the VA. At the same time I was doing therapy with PTSDers in private practice. In that process I've formed a number of opinions based on long and wide experience.

As of now I serve pro-bono as a consultant to vets dealing with the VA primarily regarding PTSD compensation claims. What anyone who reads this should know is that in many cases PTSD symptoms increase with age. Many vets who I've worked with are from the Korean War and WW II. Why does it take so long for such symptoms to develop, you may ask. Simply because younger vets are so busy making a living and growing a family that it is not until they begin to sit in their rocking chair on their front porch that those memories that they thought were buried come to the fore. Most vets manage to deal with them. Others become a burden to their family and themselves because of the behaviors that they develop.

Doc, I compliment you for offering your services in a supporting role. That's what I'd expect from an FMF Corpsman. I salute you. Semper Fidelis, Sully

[FistFu68]

:evilgrin: You don't have 2 say a fucing thing,I didn't just listening 2 other Men tell what was bugging them was therapeutic in it's own way.Had a PHD,who was at The Chosin Frozen call Me the Quiet Man!!!:confused: :iwo:

[Osotogary]

Doc,
You make too much practical sense to implement on a national level yet, at the same time, there are those who think much along the same lines as you do and do their very best to deal with and heal PST, like Sully/Shrink. All the best to all of you. I applaud your efforts.

[Shrink]

:evilgrin: You don't have 2 say a fucing thing,I didn't just listening 2 other Men tell what was bugging them was therapeutic in it's own way.Had a PHD,who was at The Chosin Frozen call Me the Quiet Man!!!:confused: :iwo:

Am not altogether sure that the foregoing was addressed to me. If so, then you should know that I too was at Chosin as the S-3 Alfa of the 2dBn, 5th Marines, 1stMarDiv. 2/5 was the Division Point just outside the village of Yu Dam Ni on the night the Chinese came into the war the thousands. 2/5 then served as the Rear Guard for the 5th and 7th Regiments all the way to Koto Ri, at the northern end of the Funchilin Pass. If you're wondering what the first picture in my signature shows, it shows the loading of dead Marines and I'd guess a number of Corpsmen on 6x6 trucks. One of the difficulties in handling the corpses of these Marines is that if they were killed hours before they froze solid which made retrieving and stacking bodies difficult to say the least. Salute!!! Semper Fidelis, Sully

[Shrink]

Doc,
You make too much practical sense to implement on a national level yet, at the same time, there are those who think much along the same lines as you do and do their very best to deal with and heal PST, like Sully/Shrink. All the best to all of you. I applaud your efforts.

Thanks for the comeback. Here again is what I propose:

"But where in Hades are counselors available for hire who have both been in the S..T and also have the necessary scholastic background to moderate a group? I'd be the first to say that it doesn't take an MA or Ph.D. in Psychology for a moderator to be effective. Maybe six months of intensive study and supervised practice could produce a moderator who was also a combat vet with sufficient skills to serve both as a PTSD counselor and supervise group sessions with PTSD sufferers. Simply being a combat vet does not make one automatically effective in what would be a semi-clinical role."

The foregoing program would get the help to those who richly deserve it in a way that would be extremely quick and much more cost effective than producing a bunch of degreed shrinks. And I'd guess that we'd all agree that a degree in back of someone's name doesn't mean a damned thing when you bring it to a therapy session. But I'm afraid you're right in that producing therapists in the manner I propose would be fought by the educational establishment in particular. It would be too inexpensive when compared with supporting a student through the eight or more years to a Ph.D. Oh well, just a thought. Salute! Semper Fidelis, Sully

[FistFu68]

:usmc: Nope it wasn't directed 2 You,it's a Small world,ain't 2 many live 1's I've ever met.My V.A. Doctor was the only Man ever that when HE met Me as a Patient who gave me a bigg bear hugg,@ said Welcome Home Jackie that was 1980.Glad too cross paths w/you MARINE even though it's Cyber Space Marines like you were my Hero's.If it weren't 4 that DOCTOR,you and I would not be talking right now.Sgt.L,It takes a Kook,2 know ONE(LMAO)S/F :beer: P.S don't feel naked about carry Dead Marines We had our Share 10/4

[FistFu68]

:usmc: One more thing He put Himself through College on the G.I. Bill,then worked 2 Jobs @ Achieved his"Piled High Deep" not born w/a Silver Spoon in His Mouth not Bad for a Grunt who had the odds against Him.He told Me once If the Chinese couldn't get his ass The system sure wasn't gonna Beat Him!!!I can not give this "V.A. Doctor"in return what He has given 2 @ 4 others,not in a Thousand Years.Semper~Fidelis :beer: :iwo:

[ecfree]

The closest I ever got to counciling,was a table in the back room of a bar with 4 other Marines a doggie and a fly boy...The bar tender was a medic in the army...
This was back in '70 -'71...Alot of beer,no fights,a few laughs and some tears....Can't forget those nights...

[DocGreek]

:evilgrin:......This thread did EXACTLY what I wanted it to do.....start a PTSD GROUP!!!! PLEASE....add your comments, and relate YOUR experiences with V.A. group therapy. We are ALL diferent, and "see" everything from our perspective, and that's why it's GOOD for us to speak up. We learn from each other. You DO NOT have to agree with anyone...just try to listen, and respect another's opinion...even if it's WRRONG!!! THANK YOU ALL for your comments!!.....ALWAYS FAITHFUL....Doc Greek:flag:

[Riven37]

My old counselor / therapist ranked one of the best social workers in the country in all VA facilities, and yet he often disrespect my guys in our group sessions by going to sleep. I ragged on him and to the VA higher ups about it and I was dropped from my group of 5 years because of it. Am I angry, you fucing 'A' I am. I came from a school of thought for the client, not for the system. Then the VA placed with a draft dodger who was proud of getting out of the draft. I gave him about 1 session then I dropped him and told the VA go F themselves. They told me to have a nice life.

[FistFu68]

:evilgrin: We had a Former Green Beret in our Group,5th Special Forces 64 -66,Hes was notorious 4 getting drunk @ Going 2 Jail very often.Who Bailed Him out many x's it was our Doctor!!!$$$$ outta His own pocket.Your right Doc G. this thread or Group You started will be very good Medicine Semper~Fi~that :thumbup: :iwo:

[DocGreek]

RIVEN....two of my group counselors, over the years...who were both Nam combat vets....got too close to each of us on a personal level....AND were FIRED!!! Their PTSD problems were just as bad as ours!! BOTH are receiving at least 50% compensation. Like I said before...it really isn't the counselor that's important, it's the lasting friendship between the group members that 'defines' the group. I was REALLY lost, could NOT function socially...bunkering in every day...sleepless nights with sweats...terrible nightmares where I was being shot at point blank range, that would wake me up...terrified. IT DOES NOT GO AWAY!!! All the antidepressants on the Pharmacy shelf...can NOT make these symptoms dissapear!! I've been a suicidal FVCK for nearly 15 years!!! Tried TWICE...but just ended up in a rubber room for WEEKS...times two!!! I can tell you how I deal with my symptoms now....some things work well...some things work sometimes! I HAVE to deal with the symptoms...ON A DAILY BASIS!!!!!....NOT EASY!! What coping methods work for one person, might NOT work for another. Alchohol, and dope...just made me more depressed, and an angry M.F.!!! PROOF: three wives...three divorces, worked more than 50 jobs in 20 years...was fired several times for fighting, and being "confrontational"!!

RIVEN, and all the rest of you BROTHERS...look to the V.A. for compensation, NOT CURE!!! Shrinks, and counselors can keep you mellow with drugs, and SMOOOOOTH talk...BUT...only REAL group therapy will truly help you.....SEMPER FI....and I mean it!!.....DOC

[Fievel]

I tried the whole counseling thing before, towards the end of my enlistment. I went primarily because my wife begged me to go to the VA to get counseling because I jump in my sleep and do all kinds of crazy sh*t.

I had a one on one counseling with a lady who was a nurse during a war (it was Vietnam if I'm not mistaken). She was a nice woman, but I just didn't feel it. I got tired of talking about my experiences with those who weren't there, and I found myself longing to go back and finish my war with the Iraqis.

Iraq is MY war. I was there for the invasion and we didn't finish it. Because of that many troops have died, and I melted back into society as just another person. I can't watch the war on TV anymore because of that....I know everyone is not going to agree with me, but I feel like a traitor. Rumsfeld said the war was over, we left, it wasn't, my friends went back, I didn't. Semper Fi, huh?

I wanted to, and looking back on it, I should have reenlisted and went back. But here I am, talking to my online family on 100% PTSD with no medications and a wife that I'm hoping will be able to hack until the day I'm gone. And two daughters who will hopefully never know the struggles you and I have dealt with.

I can't do the in-person group therapy thing, either. In my mind, I am carrying enough burden from losing 4 of my friends, two from arty right in front of me, and not finishing the war. I don't want to carry the burden of others. I'm not suicidal, but there is a huge weight on my shoulders that is slowly dragging me down. I just hope I can be as strong as everyone else and my wife, and hack until the end. Hell, I'm fighting the tears just writing this. I don't know how this pain is going to help, but I'll wake up tomorrow and make it through another day.

[montana]

for myself its the hinde sight that eats me up....what i could have done to have made things turn out diferant....that is what plays back over and over.....also the years ill never get back....my kids standing by the betdroom door calling to me...afraid to get to close till i was awake.....you cant get that back...there is no compensatin for that....
the guilt for leaveing your brothers in the bush...and comeing home....the not knowing who made it home outside a bodybag...or who could have if you were still there doing what you got to be good at.....also there was a pride thing im asfraid....when i walked point and did the rat thing i was inportant...when i came home i was nobody...just someone that didnt like to be around people unless he was drunker then all getout....i only drank to block....i have an anger in me that just wont go away....i can usualy keep it in check but its always there...aint sure if its anger at the things that happend that were out of my controle or if its anger at myself????
almost didnt post this but what the hell...

[Riven37]

I try not to go over the event (s) wondering what happen after I left who made it back or not or what would have happen differently if I only did this or did that.....I am aware its there in the forefront of my mind. The day I left Nam was the day I filled my own body bag.

for myself its the hind sight that eats me up....what i could have done to have made things turn out different....that is what plays back over and over.....also the years ill never get back....my kids standing by the bedroom door calling to me...afraid to get to close till i was awake.....you cant get that back...there is no compensation for that....
the guilt for leaving your brothers in the bush...and coming home....the not knowing who made it home outside a body bag...or who could have if you were still there doing what you got to be good at.....also there was a pride thing I'm afraid....when i walked point and did the rat thing i was important...when i came home i was nobody...just someone that didn't like to be around people unless he was drunker then all get out....i only drank to block....i have an anger in me that just wont go away....i can usually keep it in check but its always there...ain't sure if its anger at the things that happened that were out of my control or if its anger at myself????
almost didn't post this but what the hell...

[DocGreek]

:flag:......Less than 90 days in country, and our Platoon walked into an ambush. "CORPSMAN UP!!!"....no time for fear...time to give my best. 4 Marines down, and I did my first TRIAGE. Dead and wounded men that I'd had chow and morning coffee with. Couple of them had sh!t their trou, and I did my best to clean them up. From the first shot to the dust-off took about 20 min. Used my first body bag, and first tag. Did I pick the right men to save? I'll never know....once they were in the chopper I'd never see them again. Tell you what gentlemen, I'll carry ALL of your guilt, just make SURE you say a DAM Prayer for all of those fine, young, innocent Marines...who didn't come home to Mom and apple pie. I ask GOD for forgivness...every night......ALWAYS FAITHFUL....Doc Greek

[JohnEaceHunt]

I told the VA to stick Group Therapy, because everyone tried to out do each others War stories, which usually never happened. Semper Fi.

[ecfree]

I think you're right John,but some guys did have it worse than others..trouble is the ones that seen very littletry to out do others...Some people that were in the deep s*it have hardly anything to say....
I saw a navy LT once,a counsiler,that told me to think of flowers when I started to have flash backs...I told him to *$@#**&(!@ himself in more ways than one,and never seen him again...that was the end...

[RhodeIsland]

I see my Shrink and my Physcotherapist every other week at the VA.
Group Therapy??? FVCK Group Therapy!!!
This is My Group Therapy, Right Here, Right Now!!!
Band of Brothers!!!

Semper Fi,
Rocky

[FistFu68]

:evilgrin: I'm a very lucky mutha Fucer do be around tha'"MEN" in my group We deal with what is on our plate 2day.No fucing Warstories,We reinforce each other 2 cope with our daily lives this ain't no Fucing Leg P***ing Contest.I have 2 carry myself as a Man,Why? Because the Men I knew that did not make it back Would want Me 2 tow tha' fucing Line.I do it 4 them theres not a day in my life where I do not think of them they give Me the strength 2 carry on.Semper~Fidelis :evilgrin: :iwo:

[Fievel]

Yeah, I'm thinking the group therapy still aint for me. I can feel myself getting angry at posts in here for no other reason than because I have anger management issues. It was a nice try anyway. I took the first step.

[FistFu68]

:evilgrin: Good Luck Cpl.it took Me"30 yrs"too set foot in tha' Joint :evilgrin: :iwo:

[Fievel]

F*ck it, I'm here. I trust you guys.

April 6, 2003, we pull into the defense at Diyala River SE of the Riyad sector of Baghdad. We were across the river from a town named Az Zafaraniya, or something along those lines. The Iraqis were dug in along the canal bank across the river, and were boarded up in a lot of the houses.

There was a bridge that crossed the river, two of them actually. When we originally moved in we were along the east bank of the river, they had full flank shots on our AAVs, and we were sitting ducks on that bank. We had to stop because the bridges were blown by the Iraqis before we moved in to slow us down, but we didn't know about it until we arived. There was a palm grove to our left.

Still sitting on the bank, just wide enough for one AAV with the river on one side and a huge drop on the other, we began taking fire from the west side of the bank. We have to get off the top of the river bank, and quickly. RPGs are flying and green tracers are zipping toward us from the fields and houses on the west side of the river.

Artillery starts falling, hitting the river closest to our side. The rounds are falling about 50 meters from our vehicles, and we're still sitting there. The explosions are pounding the river and palm grove. We're not sure if it's friendly or enemy, but we are still waiting for the vehicles behind us to peel off.

The rounds keep falling, making a hissing sound that only lasts a second or two before the rounds impact, which is our only warning. The concussion is blowing the dirt stuck to the inside and outside of the AAV loose. It's also making us feel like our eyes are going to pop out of our heads. I could have sworn that my heart litterally stopped every time a round exploded.

The vehicles finally pull back enough for me to get the hell off the bank, and the arty rounds are falling steadily still, pounding the river, pounding the palm grove we are moving into, and pounding Az Zafaraniya. The rounds are blowing HUGE craters into the ground. It was the craziest sh*t I ever saw. We finally setup another defense in the palm grove facing across the river. Luckily, the Iraqis are too sh*tty to score a hit with an RPG so far. The 7.62 rounds are just bouncing off the EAAK armor.

We engage, firing I don't know how many rounds. We start fires with the 40mm grenades and light up anything moving on the west bank. Arty is still crashing down into the palm grove, exploding and shattering palm trees, and sending splinters of wood, dirt, rock, and metal everywhere. This lasts through the night, which the rounds are raking from the town across the river to our defense.

We get no sleep that night, which we didn't really notice because we were engaged in a firefight. April 7, 2003. The rounds stop long enough for one of the Marines to annouce we were now in MOPP level 0, meaning we could shed our MOPP suits - the best damn news since the war started. We're still lighting up targets across the river, and arty begins to fall again. For most of the morning, we are either firing, spotting, or eating an MRE while ducking arty.

Several rounds crash down and send shrapnel into my crew chief's shoulder. One of the rounds finds an AAV. Two of my friends die in the explosion, and I am among the first to get there to help...

Some of the Corpsmen break down because they can't handle the scene, and in their defense, it was horrific. I'm not going into details here, but if it wasn't for the fact they were my friends, I probably wouldn't have been able to function, either. It was a bad day.

[DocGreek]

CASEY....you have my FULL support. I'm honored, and proud to know you. Because I wasn't a young Corpsman when I got "in country", my Dad had already described what I might see, and have to deal with. I know he had PTSD, too. Saw his friends blown out of the sky, and shutes that didn't open...or were on flames. Like you, I'll take my memories to the end of my life. My prayers are with you......SEMPER FI....Doc Greek

[KawiGunny]

Yeah, I'm thinking the group therapy still aint for me. I can feel myself getting angry at posts in here for no other reason than because I have anger management issues. It was a nice try anyway. I took the first step.

Group therapy isn't for everyone but it does work for some. I used to go to group weekly at a Vet Center. The counselor wasn't really all that great but listening to the others that had the same issues as I do made it easier to deal with. At least I knew I wasn't the only one anymore. Some of the best group therapy for me came after the actual group let out. There was always between 3 - 5 of us that would hang out outside the building and talk amongst ourselves about our issues and what we have been doing to deal with it. We would trade ideas and see if something else might work better. I don't go much anymore for right now but I will start going back weekly before long. I am starting to feel the anger rise again.

Some of the people in the group are lazy azz, money grabbing, sorry pieces of sh!t. They were in Iraq or Afghanistan and never left the wire. Yet they are complaining more than the actual killers that left the wire on a daily basis or lived outside of the wire for weeks at a time. I got in trouble at one meeting for pulling a couple of punk cards from some Army dogs. They never left the wire yet they constantly complained about nightmares. I heard enough of their sh!t one night, after having a bad day, and I lite them up. One of them got up and left and the other didn't say another word for the next two sessions. I did appologise to them later, the following week, but they still didn't say much after that. The counselor about sh!t her pants when I got in their face that one night. Two other Marine's were sitting back and laughing. After it was over that night, they told me that I beat them to it. They were ready to break it off in their azz also.

So for me, group works. Not the best but it does help. Like anything you do where a group gathers, you will always have that 10%.

[DocGreek]

Thanks, Gunny. I still go to a Doc's group, but like you...my anger flares up when a REMF Army Medic starts complaining. Sometimes, the counselor has to be a reff., and keep us nutso's apart!!..."works for ME!!".....DOC

[Fievel]

Some of the people in the group are lazy azz, money grabbing, sorry pieces of sh!t. They were in Iraq or Afghanistan and never left the wire. Yet they are complaining more than the actual killers that left the wire on a daily basis or lived outside of the wire for weeks at a time.

So for me, group works. Not the best but it does help. Like anything you do where a group gathers, you will always have that 10%.

Gunny, it's funny you say that. I knew a sh*tbag who claimed to be in Walmart when he saw an Iraqi. He said he pulled his knife and was going to "gut the hadji." Apparently, his wife had to hold him back, too. He then went on to explain how his son walked up to the Iraqi and informed him that his "daddy was going to kill him." There was a lot more to the story along these lines, but I'll spare everyone the boredom. It was clearly BS. I won't say I can read minds, but I can read body language and "drama" when I see it. This guy's tone and movements wreaked of total BS. Plus, I knew him, apparently he forgot that.

That's the kind of sh*t I CAN'T STAND with group sessions. There's always someone who has to top your story. I don't think of myself as being any better than anyone for surviving the invasion, though I do consider myself lucky. It kind of messes with my mind when I think about how my AAV was hit by an RPG that didn't explode, or that I lived through 2 days of shelling, or how my comm helmet got unplugged and I ducked down to plug it in when a shell exploded and my crewchief took the shrapnel instead, or even just driving by a T-55 we smoked while the rounds were cooking off inside it.

I didn't think it bugged me back in 2003 after we got back. I thought I was being "hard" because I survived it with most of my friends. But as the time goes on, the weight keeps dragging me down. Then I have to hear the stories of these guys who never left the wire, and/or completely fabricated their experiences to claim compensation from the VA. It just p*sses me off. I'm just glad my wife has learned how to hack because she almost left me the first year I was back, and I can't blame her at all. It was a rough time for everyone. It's probably not the best option, but I learned how to just bottle up some of the emotions so I can make it through another day without getting thrown in jail or drinking myself to death. The bottle does overflow at times, though.

I have a reevaluation coming up toward the end of this year. I'm going to see if the VA will put me on some meds. I would have thought they would have the first time, but better late than never. Plus, I was hoping the symptoms would go away.

[Riven37]

Group therapy isn't about telling war stories, its about the loss how to deal with those we lost because this messes up vets.

Its about how we handled our feelings at such young ages, the anger, the hatred toward a people that were nothing more then less than human.

How we dealt with doing things during those moments in time we thought we could never ever do at our young ages.

Its also about coping, how did we cope then and how we cope now.

Its is not about pointing finger at those in the rear with the gear man some of those guys help you while you were in the field and you didn't even know about it.

Its about how do we become better people to other human beings after living and killing like rats.

Its about how do we treat ourselves as well as treating others around us.

Group Therapy isn't about telling war stories. That belongs to each and every one of us and that my Friends is a private thing between us and our maker.

Like I always told former clients "Use what works for you until it no longer works for you, then change it, and do something different."

[Fievel]

well, ****, i just do everything wrong.

Therapy and coping is a ****load of jack and coke.

Stay drunk, forget the pain. None of it makes sense anyway so why try to talk about it? I can't get much sleep at night anymore. My patience is ****ing non-existent. I feel like I have to constantly be passive with everything because if I don't, someone is going to get hurt.

I tell my stories to my brothers and sisters on here not because I am trying to out-do anyone, but because it helps me rationalize ****. Man, I am so sick and ****ing tired of breaking down or going into a fit and destroying something. I'm tired of looking at people who don't give a **** about what you and I did. I'm writing this now and am REALLY trying to fight the urge to put my fist through this screen.

So what the **** am I supposed to do? What the **** do I talk about? How the **** SHOULD I PRESENT IT TO EVERYONE SO THEY DON'T TAKE OFFENSE??? ****, if I can't talk about the **** that bugs me the most, what the hell do I talk about?

I don't handle my feelings. I bottle it up and forget about it until it resurfaces. I coped then by knowing I killed the bastards who would have done the same to me or my buddies. Now, I cope with some jack daniels. But I can only say this so many times. If I can't talk about the **** that bothers me the most, this isn't going to do anything for me. Good luck with this, everyone. I sincerely hope it works out for you guys. Semper Fi, brothers! :flag:

[FistFu68]

:evilgrin: Be yourself let it flow,don't worry what anyone thinks no one can hump in your boots!!!Same crasy chit just a different time in place ,War is Hell no matter when We were there.We are pulling 4 you Marine :usmc: :iwo:

[DocGreek]

:evilgrin:.......FIEVEL.......Do you get ANY help from the V.A.?? Do you see a counselor or shrink on a regular basis?? You can't get through the PTSD mess by yourself. You need support from your Brothers HERE....and support from someone you can trust at the V.A. Some of us here on Leatherneck, are REALLY fvcked up! SOME of us have been locked up in a rubber room....more than once. If you had a belly ache, and didn't do anything about it....it would only get WORSE, and you be in DEEP SH!T!! Suffering with PTSD, is no different!!! PLEASE...accept the fact that you're NOT getting any better by SELF-MEDICATING, and you must get professional help.

You have OUR COMPLETE SUPPORT!!!! One step, one day or HOUR....at a time!! Do you want a "NORMAL" life??? YES....you can get PRETTY DAM CLOSE to it....with counseling, and MAYBE...some MEDS. UNDERSTAND....there's NO cure for PTSD, only ways to fight the sh!tty symptoms, AND all of us HERE...KNOW you can do it!!! GOD, please help this man to travel down the right path to PEACE...I'm willing to bear his pain, and suffering...for him....ALWAYS FAITHFUL....Doc Greek

[Riven37]

FIEVEL.......First stop your drinking it only mesh with PTSD to the point where thoughts in your head will make no sense day in and day out. I know, I've been there and done that.

Instead of *****ing about what you can't do focus on what you can do, an that is this...you have control only over you. You can not control events that happen past or future. You can't control what other people may think of you or what they will say about you people believe in human behaviors not what they say therefore, stop saying things and start doing things.

Getting yourself to a group setting may be hard now, but even when you read how most of us had bad experiences in a group setting or even when we ***** about those groups we didn't like to be in doesn't mean we did get anything out of the groups.

Vets get out of group what vets put into groups. I was one of those vets that would say little in group, and there were other vets who felt uncomfortable about me saying little. Some vets think they have to spill the beans but that's not true. It has taken me 40 years to speak about a few events and I'm still not comfortable doing it.

You really need to give yourself permission to open up a bit. You need to tell you its OK to attend a group setting. If a group setting isn't your cup of tea then find someone from your unit and hook up like they way people do in AA use another vet as your sounding board. Otherwise, you will continue to feel crazy, and you will drink yourself into a dark place cutting yourself off from the world, its all up to you !

[KawiGunny]

To me...... The hardest part about going to group was getting up the nerve and admitting to myself that I need some help. Getting up the nerve was the easy part. Admitting to myself that I needed help was the hard part. Just gotta put aside the Badazz Marine mentality for a bit and jump right in. Going back after the first time was easy.

[Fievel]

:evilgrin:.......FIEVEL.......Do you get ANY help from the V.A.?? Do you see a counselor or shrink on a regular basis?? You can't get through the PTSD mess by yourself. You need support from your Brothers HERE....and support from someone you can trust at the V.A. Some of us here on Leatherneck, are REALLY fvcked up! SOME of us have been locked up in a rubber room....more than once. If you had a belly ache, and didn't do anything about it....it would only get WORSE, and you be in DEEP SH!T!! Suffering with PTSD, is no different!!! PLEASE...accept the fact that you're NOT getting any better by SELF-MEDICATING, and you must get professional help.

You have OUR COMPLETE SUPPORT!!!! One step, one day or HOUR....at a time!! Do you want a "NORMAL" life??? YES....you can get PRETTY DAM CLOSE to it....with counseling, and MAYBE...some MEDS. UNDERSTAND....there's NO cure for PTSD, only ways to fight the sh!tty symptoms, AND all of us HERE...KNOW you can do it!!! GOD, please help this man to travel down the right path to PEACE...I'm willing to bear his pain, and suffering...for him....ALWAYS FAITHFUL....Doc Greek

Nah, Doc. They gave me compensation, no drugs, and sent me on my way. I want to go see a counselor BADLY! But I don't trust the VA, and I don't trust a civilian shrink. I guess I really don't trust anyone...I think that's why I gravitated toward this site when I found it. Every Marine and Corpsman on here is my brother or sister, and I trust them. Shrinks from the VA or civilian sector, well, I just don't trust. I had a shrink from the VA, but I quit going to her a while back. She asked me the same questions over and over again, and I got tired of talking to her about it. It wasn't that she was doing a bad job, I just got tired of telling her the same thing...like I was talking to a wall. Except, I think my wall might understand better than some of these counselors.

I eventually found comfort in jack. I work and travel a lot, so I'm not drunk all day long, but if I get a chance, I will have a session with Mr. Daniels. And I drink to get drunk. Hell, if it wasn't for work, I probably...well, I don't know where I'd be, but work keeps my head busy. Even my wife says she can't stand me when I have nothing to do because I get really bad. God bless her for hanging in there with me for this long.

I go back for a reeval at the end of this year. I'm going to see if they can give me something.

[Fievel]

Riven and Kawi, thanks. That makes a lot of sense. I think I am going to set myself up with a civilian shrink hopefully here in town. I should have done this a long time ago...but tomorrow is another day. My family will probably appreciate it more than I will.

Thanks, brothers. SF :flag:

[FistFu68]

:evilgrin: There you go Cpl.Badass,When tha Bottle starts drinking out of You instead of You Drinking out of the bottle,that should tell you what fucing time it is!!! You ain't alone, Man up CPL. of Marines :usmc: :iwo:

[Riven37]

Fievel, that's good to know we all gone through it in one way or another however Fievel tomorrow should have been yesterday..."Don't put off today what you could have done yesterday."


Semper Fi :flag:

[montana]

when things get to bad i just get on a horse and head up into the back country....where there are no people to bother me.....time alone....lets me clear my head

the booze thingie only got me in trubble....let my anger out ...jail isnt a good place to clear your head....just puts you in deeper....two months after i got back from nam....was thinking wow this is real...im not going to wake up from this dream back in the bush...its over all the dieing ...my wife and her dad got cought in a blizzerd...bothe died....i turned to the booze and drugs....was the wrong direction i can tell you...i dont go to therapy...i dont have any close friends other then my wife.....she has a good ear
like i said what works for me is alone in the mountains....it calms my soul and eases my minde
be safe good people

[Fievel]

I'm sorry for your loss, brother. Hang in there.



I've combed the phone books and found a psychiatrist I'm going to give a try. But I don't know if I need to see a psychiatrist or a psychologist. From my understanding a psychiatrist can give you meds and a psychologist is just there for you to talk to. My buddy told me he sees a psychiatrist, but they only perscribe him drugs. I asked how come he doesn't see a psychologist and he said, "man, what the hell am I going to tell them?"

I'm waiting for the psychiatrist to call back to set up an appointment. I feel weak, though, for calling one. But I'm hoping that if I put my pride to the side and get some help, my family will benefit more than I will. I never put them in danger, but they've seen me go off about stupid sh*t. As for the psychiatrist, I'm scared. But I'm not going to b*tch out of this one. Thanks for the support, brothers. Semper Fi!

[Riven37]

Fievel,

Doing this for you will benefit your family or you will have no family believe me I know been married 3 times all left because I was crazy to them. They did not know who to deal with nightmares, yelling out at night in my sleep or my running in my sleep.

I drank every day a case of beer a day to forget things I did that from 73 until 1983 then I knew I needed help when I nearly killed a girl in a bar because she set me off while playing a pool game. I picked up the Que ball and whipped it at her missing her head by inches. I called a another vet I knew at 3 AM asking for his help but he blew me off because it was 3 AM. I ended it get back to at that time my little room in a boarding house, and i didn't know how I made it there. The next morning the two counselors from the Vet Center walked in woke me up and I noticed the room was torn apart with my knives sticking in the dresser, and back of the door. The bed was ripped apart, and I had slept on the floor half on the bed. This is what PTSD will do to you mixed with alcohol, and no help it makes you crazy. I haven't drank in 26 years after that night in 1983. If it wasn't for that vet not allowing me to be his crutch and for him call the Vet Center that morning placing me on there crisis list I think I would have killed my self that morning.

[DocGreek]

After all of the decades that I screwed up my life, my families, my jobs, my friends....AND my brain, I STILL hate myself. I can't stand to look at myself in the mirror. All of that drinking, and self medicating made me a suicidal/homicidal screwball. All the antidepressants and sleeping pills, will NOT make my anger go away....ANGER at myself, that comes out at other people. I've made some very angry posts here, and on my Bat's web site.

The symptoms we have, as a result of PTSD...NEVER go away....they can only be treated with...LOVE, UNDERSTANDING, AND ACCEPTANCE. Realizing that you have a problem, is the first step. Accepting yourself for who you are...and what you've been, is the next step. Learning to cope/deal with your "self", is an hourly/daily fight. WE ARE NOT QUITTERS!!! I only trust in GOD, and MYSELF...everyone else must prove to me that THEY are trustworthy. THAT is what "SEMPER FIDELIS" means. I WILL support EVERY one of you...you're my real Brothers....SEMPER FI....Doc Greek

[RhodeIsland]

You are so RIGHT Doc!!!
What a LONG, STRANGE ROAD it has been so far but still I see no light at the end of the tunnel.

A Stranger in the Mirror.

Semper Fi,
Rocky

[Riven37]

It is strong how one mixed up singer gave us Nam vets a song we could relate to..."The man in the Mirror" ... looked at him many times all I see is that young 18 year old kid I once was looking back at me; not a good feeling.

Doc talks about god, I am sorry but I left him in Nam I have no understanding of him as I once had. If he is so much a loving God then why are people die by other people ? Why is there Wars because he said there would be. No I left him in Nam he and I don't speak much these days but I do know he saved my life over there more than once, and I wonder why.

Trust, well Doc I have a hard time trusting people, and I know where that comes from. FNG's sometimes didn't last long, while those guys we did know, got tight with, never made it home. Getting close to people means to me I will watch them leave and never come back. It I better to stay at a distant than getting too close. This is why I have been married 3 times I messed them all up to save my heart. I had a motto engraved on my lighter in Nam by Papa san it read how, and what I was feeling during my tour...

"There are many tears in a man's heart that never reaches his eye."

[DocGreek]

I don't like to talk about other peoples faith, and beliefs...it's none of my business. While I was on my back, for almost three months in Yakasuka...lots of time to think...the beginning of my PTSD....I read a lot of books. When I got home, and things were just as bad as I thought they would be....came to my OWN conclusion that IF there's really a GOD, He gives a CHANCE at a life by allowing us to be conceived...then allows us FREE WILL to make our heaven or hell....right here. Came to this conclusion because none of the B.S. I was told before WAS NOT RATIONAL!! I have other beliefs, but I won't discuss them here. They're ALL positive....MY CHOICE!!....ALWAYS FAITHFUL....Doc Greek

[Dave Coup]

I can tell you that 20+ yrs of using booze therapy only got me arrested too many times to count, my nose bitten off, 2 wives (in retrospect that wasn't a bad thing I didn't have **** to give either) and a really good job lost. I've been in group therapy though not VA and it definitely isn't for everyone. Most people couldn't listen to much I had to say. Luckily my Therapist was a Nam Vet from the very early days and there was another Marine from Nam there as well. Semper Fidelis Marines you are all in my thoughts and prayers

[Riven37]

Police trouble lol, last year I was arrested for calling a women a F...ing Bi..h, the police came to my house in full force 6 cars, 6 cops, and 1 dog unit all their guns drawing looking for my guns lol I told them I have no guns but they search my home anyway, handcuff me, took me off to jail for 2 hours. In the end it cost me $1500 bucks and 1 year probation, and a $300.00 fine all for calling a women a ***** lol....I don't recognize this place (America) anymore.

[Riven37]

Well Doc, I am old Roman Catholic born and raised that way. Wanted to be a priest. When that faith failed me in Nam, I picked up a bit of buddhism, bought one of those golden Buddha worn around my neck, kissed it every time I went out. After I came home, I tried born again method didn't seem to help. Now, I write, hold long conversations with myself, talk in my sleep, and shy away from God.

I knew guys who found him (God) over there, I never understood that. One day they 're rock N rolling, days later its I can't do this, they acted like a FNG. I guess it was up to each of us, how the events around us developed for us and how we conceived those perceptions of those events. Don't get me wrong, I believe in God, I just don't use him. I guess, I am still angry at him.

[DocGreek]

RICK....I've read OUR posts 4, or 5 times. I'm with you. A lot of us have the same dam symptoms, and all of us need each others support. You will ALWAYS have mine. I know we can't win, but we'll give it a hell of a fight!!!.....SEMPER FI....DOC

[skipper72]

ANY form of "chat therapy" for PTSD (whether it be individual or group) has no validity, whatsoever. Such is largely ineffectual. The use of proprietary pharmaceuticals has, in the main, the same result. If anyone here has any sincere interest in my experience as a doctor with proven, highly-effective treatment protocols, please feel free to contact me by email.

[DocGreek]

Sorry, Skipper, but you'll have to better define "chat therapy". Is group therapy included in your definition? Are you also stating that those of us suffering from depression...a symptom of PTSD...should not be taking antidepressants? As a physician, do you contend that only professionals should treat patients with PTSD, on a one to one basis? Do you consider a Psychologist a professional? Do you believe that a counselor with an MSW is qualified to "conduct" group therapy? Please give your opinions, I highly respect them....Doc Greek

[skipper72]

Sorry, Skipper, but you'll have to better define "chat therapy". Is group therapy included in your definition? Are you also stating that those of us suffering from depression...a symptom of PTSD...should not be taking antidepressants? As a physician, do you contend that only professionals should treat patients with PTSD, on a one to one basis? Do you consider a Psychologist a professional? Do you believe that a counselor with an MSW is qualified to "conduct" group therapy? Please give your opinions, I highly respect them....Doc Greek

...should there be interested individuals, I am always willing to discuss this subject in depth if and when they contact me by email. The subject is FAR too important and complex to go into substantive detail here.

[skipper72]

...should there be interested individuals, I am always willing to discuss this subject in depth if and when they contact me by email. The subject is FAR too important and complex to go into substantive detail here.
However, the following may give at least some slight indication what might be involved in proven, successful approaches vs. those which, though common, have proven ineffectual:

http://holisticmedicine.multiply.com/journal/item/584

http://holisticmedicine.multiply.com/journal/item/563/PTSD_amp_Cranial_Electrotherapy_Stimulation

[montana]

ooooo Cranial electrotherapy......uhh you mean you fry da brain???ill try it lol

[Riven37]

Cranial electrotherapy give me a brake !!! This is nut therapy for those VA wacko doctors who like experimental treatment. lol

[skipper72]

I think I should put a "brake" on trying to be of service, here. OUT...

[KawiGunny]

Good idea skipper. Group Therapy actually helped me out a lot. Being able to talk about what ale's me and doing it with my brothers (all branches) who were actually in the same AOR as I was. So your statement about it doesn't work is wrong as far as I am concerned.

[Riven37]

Don't climb all over Skipper, life is too short.

[KawiGunny]

Don't climb all over Skipper, life is too short.


I wasn't climbing on him..... just disagreeing.:beer:

[montana]

was told the reason those of ww2 and koria were able to handle things better then us was because they went over as a grupe and came home as a grupe....on shipes...they had lots of time to talk with those who shared their expirianses....grup therapy....where as we went over alone and came back alone....in short time...and nobody wanted to talk to us or listen....so we were forsed to keep it all inside ourselves....no therapy....deal with it

also the fact that on an average combatents in ww11 spent an average of something like 50 days in actual combat in the 4 years of the war...koria was something like 60 days in the 3 years...in vietnam we were in combat an average of 260 days in one year
....the phycs....figure that anyone exposed to combat more the a 100 days of combat in a year are proned to be stark raven nuts....shell shock as they called it in the old days...just some of what ive read...not makeing this up as i go....whos book ya gonna belive???

[RhodeIsland]

I am not having a good day.
I am not having a good day.

I know I won't have a good day tomorrow either.
I hate feeling like this.

But I know One day at a time and One foot in front of the other.

[SSgt Ramsey]

I'm new in this arena....still figuring things out as I go along, but I can say that the classes in the PTSP Program offered at my VA Hospital have at the very least at least explained why I feel as I sometimes do....I dont' agree with 100% of the presented media and information, but some makes sense and sticks with me.

I don't think it's logical to discount an entire regimin of treatment as "inneffectual" if it at least helps out in some way...I don't think there is or ever will be a magical cure or "silver bullet", if there was, this topic would not exist.

I prefer: "Is group therapy right for all Veteran's"...the answer is obviously and resoundingly "NO"....some may benefit, others may not....but anybody can disagree with me, no issue there.

My buddy from the class is a former Army door-gunner who did 2 tours in Vietnam...seen more horror that I can comprehend....another Veteran is a woman who watched her female friend ran over by a tracked vehicle in Afghanistan....PTSD is different for each of us dependent on our experiences and how we process the information.....as individual as each of us are, but similar also.

[FistFu68]

:evilgrin: Montana 1 of my Papa's brothers was in Pattons unit He told Me that He was actually in Combat for 39 days during His whole 4 year hitch during WW11,He was the First Realative sides my Mom 2 visit Me in Bethesda.My PaPa was back in 'Nam again.My Uncle Sonny was a very Honest Man,Said any group of Veterans that build their own Memorial showed a Tightness as in a Brotherhood that shall never Be Surpassed.The old Fart can still beat Me arm Wrestling,Hell he was a for Lumberjack 35yrs :beer: :iwo:

[Riven37]

Did they teach you that your Hypothalamus & Hippocampus will change over the years, and you will act like an over loaded electrical wall socket. Too much stimulus will short you out and bang you go off with little control over your own behaviors.


I'm new in this arena....still figuring things out as I go along, but I can say that the classes in the PTSP Program offered at my VA Hospital have at the very least at least explained why I feel as I sometimes do....I dont' agree with 100% of the presented media and information, but some makes sense and sticks with me.

I don't think it's logical to discount an entire regimin of treatment as "inneffectual" if it at least helps out in some way...I don't think there is or ever will be a magical cure or "silver bullet", if there was, this topic would not exist.

I prefer: "Is group therapy right for all Veteran's"...the answer is obviously and resoundingly "NO"....some may benefit, others may not....but anybody can disagree with me, no issue there.

My buddy from the class is a former Army door-gunner who did 2 tours in Vietnam...seen more horror that I can comprehend....another Veteran is a woman who watched her female friend ran over by a tracked vehicle in Afghanistan....PTSD is different for each of us dependent on our experiences and how we process the information.....as individual as each of us are, but similar also.

[skipper72]

Did they teach you that your Hypothalamus & Hippocampus will change over the years, and you will act like an over loaded electrical wall socket. Too much stimulus will short you out and bang you go off with little control over your own behaviors.

At the "risk" of being told again to get out of this thread/subject or else out of the community altogether (neither of which is going to affect what I say or do in the least), the limbic system which contains in its psychological "recesses" most of the memories and all of the emotions does not alter organically "over the years." But, unrelieved by valid, deep therapy, its emotional contents tend to "leak" more into "bright" (BETA) consciousness process, causing more overt ideational and behavioral disturbances.


My offer is still open: I am more than willing to discuss the PTSD treatment subject with serious-minded individuals should anyone wish to initiate that by email with me. But I am NOT going to spend time, mind, and energy playing a target in such threads as this one.

[FistFu68]

:evilgrin: Have You ever tried Your method on Yourself Captain? :confused: :iwo:

[Riven37]

I disagree with you Cappy....

[jahhead88]

There have been some interesting and valid points made. Which has me curious. I am a fromer Marine who served in Desert Shield and Desert Storm. I survived a scud missle attack. I never personally fired my rifle back at anyone. I had known grunts who had died, and went through my share of air raid sirens and being on high alert for terrorist attacks. The closest I would say I have been to combat was someone trying to run the checkpoint of the base camp I was at in Jubail while I was out on a morning run. I personally think I make a decent counselor. However, after what I read, I'm starting to question that. Just my two cents.

[jahhead88]

About four to six months ago, I attended a Young Marines Graduation, and the guest speaker read a poem of what is a Marine.

A Marine is:

Motivated
Articulate
Respectul
Is invested in his/ her God Country and Corps
Needs no excuses
Every day looks for ways to make the world a better place.

In the previous thread about group therapy. I try to apply those principles to the veterans I work with at the VA.

Two more cents to add

[Riven37]

First jahhead88, don't let anything you read on these boards effect you in such a manor. You are in control of only you no one else nor what other people here may say they are only opinions.

I know I can be very negative about counseling because I was one for abt 18years, went to college for 9 years for it and it wasn't what its all crack up to be. I've met people who should not be in the field and many who should. However, with that said, it all comes down to the client, and their needs not about your issues therefore, many Nam vets or vets in general become counselors without dealing with their own issues like I did. I thought I had everything under control until many years later all my stuff surfaced and knocked me right on my butt. Today I am a nervous wreck, I don't like people, and I isolate 90 % of the time.

My point to all this is make sure its what you want to do but don't do it because you think you might be good at it...My mentor told me once "If you ever want to destroy a persons life, become a counselor."

Anyways, it takes time you know what type of counseling you want to go into there is not just one type, and to learn this type you need to go to college or if you're already there in college do your research. The down side, the pay sucks unless you head to the Masters level then its all politics.


:flag:

There have been some interesting and valid points made. Which has me curious. I am a former Marine who served in Desert Shield and Desert Storm. I survived a scud missile attack. I never personally fired my rifle back at anyone. I had known grunts who had died, and went through my share of air raid sirens and being on high alert for terrorist attacks. The closest I would say I have been to combat was someone trying to run the checkpoint of the base camp I was at in Jubail while I was out on a morning run. I personally think I make a decent counselor. However, after what I read, I'm starting to question that. Just my two cents.

[Shrink]

was told the reason those of ww2 and koria were able to handle things better then us was because they went over as a grupe and came home as a grupe....on shipes...they had lots of time to talk with those who shared their expirianses....grup therapy....where as we went over alone and came back alone....in short time...and nobody wanted to talk to us or listen....so we were forsed to keep it all inside ourselves....no therapy....deal with it

Not for the sake of argument, but the foregoing is simply not true. I'm sure that there were units who did go overseas and did come home as a unit. Obviously, it was not the same Soldiers in that unit who went out with it since many replacements would have come and gone since the unit was in combat. If you've seen Bank of Brothers that movie was what I would consider the "normal" progression of a unit where the "old timers" eventually get knocked off. As one of the "Band" said, he hated to get to know the replacements since they so frequently and swiftly were KIA or WIA. As the movie illustrated, and I believe that this was the case in most combat outfits, there were darned few of the "originals" left by the time the war in Europe was over.

Speaking now of Marine units in WW II and Korea, if you look at the casualties in almost every engagement the number of casualties in a given division almost exactly proximate to the number of infantrymen in the division/regiment engaged.

also the fact that on an average combatents in ww11 spent an average of something like 50 days in actual combat in the 4 years of the war...koria was something like 60 days in the 3 years...in vietnam we were in combat an average of 260 days in one year

Well, speaking from long experience, there is combat, and then again there is combat. How does one equate the three days on Tarawa, or the thirty two days on Iwo, or the thirty days of Peleliu with what most Marine infantrymen had to deal with in Viet Nam? As the commander of one of those battalion I'll tell you that most of our time we were looking for the enemy, while at the same time dodging his mines and ambushes. Sure, there were many rough moments, and even days and very occasionally months when the whizz bangs were going their day. My battalion had such a day on 20 March, 1966, when we lost nearly a quarter of two rifle companies in the first thirty minutes we were in the LZ. Thank God, such encounters were the exception rather than the rule. The story on the "800s" north of Khe Sanh was much different in that these Marines were frequently under sustained fire for days/months at a time.

...the phycs....figure that anyone exposed to combat more the a 100 days of combat in a year are proned to be stark raven nuts....shell shock as they called it in the old days...just some of what ive read...not makeing this up as i go....whos book ya gonna belive???

As a Shrink with many years experience in the diagnosing and treatment of PTSD I don't believe that there are any yardsticks that are able to apply to that malady. Individual differences in tolerance of stress come into play here, and there is just no way that you can establish that "one set of circumstances applies to all." One element that has only recently begun to get the recognition it deserves if the effect that concussion has on engendering TBI in the individual. TBI is obviously nothing new, yet we're just beginning to investigate and diagnose such damage. Semper Fidelis

[skipper72]

Thank you, Colonel. I agree completely.

[FistFu68]

:usmc: Would You let the Capt.Plug You up 2 His Machine Col??? :confused: :iwo:

[DocGreek]

Gentelmen....NOT all PTSD patients are equal. That's why we're called "individuals". NOT every treatment works for everyone. NOT all Psychiatrists treat PTSD symptoms the same. Correct SYMPTOM management, is the key to a patients ability to cope. The same applies to GROUP THERAPY. SOME PTSD patients do very well in a group environment, over TIME...because of their natural ability to identify with others problems...similar to their own. There is NO substantiated, specific treatment...totally inclusive for the "treatment of PTSD", OR the symptoms.

If you are a patient being treated for PTSD, and you feel that you're getting NOWHERE....THERE IS HELP!! You've GOT to ask for it! TALK to your counselor, and shrink...and tell them THE TRUTH!! If you think your treatment SUCKS...see the "Patient Advocate", available at every clinic, and VA Hospital. YOU HAVE CHOICES!!! Keep cool, keep calm, and write down ALL you can about your problems, and the treatment you've received...TOO MUCH TROUBLE??...get another Vet from Group, or a Combat Buddy, to do the process together...IT WORKS!!...My Prayers and my Support will ALWAYS be with you ALL....SEMPER FIDELIS....Doc Greek

[Shrink]

Gentelmen....NOT all PTSD patients are equal. That's why we're called "individuals". NOT every treatment works for everyone. NOT all Psychiatrists treat PTSD symptoms the same. Correct SYMPTOM management, is the key to a patients ability to cope. The same applies to GROUP THERAPY. SOME PTSD patients do very well in a group environment, over TIME...because of their natural ability to identify with others problems...similar to their own. There is NO substantiated, specific treatment...totally inclusive for the "treatment of PTSD", OR the symptoms.

If you are a patient being treated for PTSD, and you feel that you're getting NOWHERE....THERE IS HELP!! You've GOT to ask for it! TALK to your counselor, and shrink...and tell them THE TRUTH!! If you think your treatment SUCKS...see the "Patient Advocate", available at every clinic, and VA Hospital. YOU HAVE CHOICES!!! Keep cool, keep calm, and write down ALL you can about your problems, and the treatment you've received...TOO MUCH TROUBLE??...get another Vet from Group, or a Combat Buddy, to do the process together...IT WORKS!!...My Prayers and my Support will ALWAYS be with you ALL....SEMPER FIDELIS....Doc Greek

Wise council indeed. If you take no heed of anything else the Doc has written above, at least try to internalize this one sentence:

There is NO substantiated, specific treatment...totally inclusive for the "treatment of PTSD", OR the symptoms.

I've been around long enough to see what can only be called "fads" in the treatment of PTSD. I've had many conversations with dozens of sufferers who would ask what I thought of one approach to treatment, or another. My reply has always been that if a particular approach to therapy works for him/her, go for it.

What the individual cannot do without hazarding his own future and the future of those near and dear to him/her is accept their situation as one that has driven them "crazy." Surrendering, giving up, to those insistent voices and feelings is no more in the interest of the individual than surrendering on the battlefield. To infer that anything in the recovery aspects of PTSD is easy would be a mistake. You've got to come to grips with the malady, and fight to find a measure of solace in the many types of treatment available. A quitter in this struggle in effect surrenders the remaining portion of what will inevitably be a short and unfulfilled life.

The solution does not lie in the therapist, counselor, or whatever therapy is chosen. The solution exists within the sufferer, and all the rest of us can accomplish is attempting to guide the client in finding that solution.

[FistFu68]

:usmc: Now someone is Finally starting too make sum sence :usmc: :iwo:

[RhodeIsland]

My Physcotherapist at the VA Hospital is always telling me that I have to change the way that I speak to myself in my mind when I become too Hyper-Vigilante. It's not working but I am trying.

[skipper72]

The popularity of some method or the amount of time it has been in prominence is NO guarantee whatever of its potential for success. If that were true, then there would not be such widespread, unceasing PTSD consequences after more than a few decades of "treatment." And were prominence the answer, we'd only need to clone a few thousand Dr. Phils. Yes, the disorder is horrible. It is crippling, to be sure. But, just maybe, it is time to start thinking "outside the box?" Group therapy and prescription meds may, indeed, have been the best therapeutic "science" extant in 1990. But this is 2009.

[skipper72]

In addition, it might be useful to understand the considerable differences among the following modes of action when addressing any disorder:

Palliative care

Treatment

Cure

[Osotogary]

Skipper72, In my 64 years of existence I never knew there was a word such as palliative. Anyway, I have posted a link for PalliativeCare, if anyone is interested. Chime in if you feel I have gone down the wrong path. I know that this is a link that deals with HIV but it, none the less, provides an insight to what palliative care is.

http://www.who.int/hiv/topics/palliative/PalliativeCare/en/

What it is
Palliative care is an approach which improves the quality of life of patients and their families facing life-threatening illness, through the prevention, assessment and treatment of pain and other physical, psychosocial and spiritual problems.

[FistFu68]

:evilgrin: Rocky You hang in there Marine,when I was Your age I had a loaded Gun in every room of my House plus 3 in tha Garage @ 2 Buried outside my escape tunnel leaving my House.Sometimes it Pays 2 be Paronoid.Instead of Bio-Feedback "witch" was tha thing I got Into Zen.Ain't had the Urge too Hurt Myself Or anyone else in a very long time.Don't look into tha' Mirror look through tha Mirror .Your gonna make it Marine :thumbup: :iwo:

[skipper72]

Yesterday, I spoke with one of my closest friends who was a Corpsman at Hue in '68. Wounded there (in more than one way) and cited for heroism. He later became a Psychiatric Social Worker. We discussed PTSD at length. I asked him if there had REALLY been incentive to explore CURING PTSD even in the face of recent scientific findings. He said, "No." And told me several reasons why. I then asked him what he thought about PTSD TREATMENT. He answered, "Very little." And as to palliative care ? "Oh, yes, mostly just that." "But, he said, "you really shouldn't bother yourself trying to help affected vets get a better understanding of this. They won't listen." He's right.

[Riven37]

Recent Legislation

H.R. 952: COMBAT PTSD Act: This act would amend title 38, United States Code, to clarify the meaning of "combat with the enemy" for purposes of service-connection of disabilities, specifically, to include "active duty service in a theater of combat operations during a period of war or in combat against a hostile force during a period of hostilities." This expansion would help ease the adverse effects on veterans of having to provide non-essential corroborating evidence of engaging in combat with the enemy when a medical diagnosis is present and the injuries are consistent with the duties and hardship of service. WATCH this BILL CLOSLEY



They will be coming at the disable vets next. Anything coming out of Washington now is geared toward Socialism. US Disable vets may lose our disability within the next few years.

[Riven37]

I don't know what this Palliative care is but here in NY state its all Individual cognitive behavioral therapies (CBT), and continues to be therapy of choice.


In addition, it might be useful to understand the considerable differences among the following modes of action when addressing any disorder:

Palliative care

Treatment

Cure

[skipper72]

I don't know what this Palliative care is..

A medical example of "palliative care" would be helping cancer patients go to their deaths as comfortably as possible, absent substantive, therapeutic relief or cure. (even if such did, in fact, exist). There are analogies relative to PTSD management du jour.

[DocGreek]

HOSPICE, ANYONE??...how man years??

[skipper72]

A parable:

Once upon a time, there was a taxi driver in New York City who operated mainly between the Waldorf Astoria and JFK Airport. He always drove his taxi backwards. When questioned about this he said, "Everyone else does it this way. And besides the passengers don't have to look at the traffic. It makes them feel better." When asked if he'd ever consider methods of going forward, he said, "Hell no. I've been doing this for 25 years. This is how I make my living. And I actually DO get some people to their flights on time !"

[Riven37]

You know what my brother is dying from Cancer and will be dead in a few months, he will die at home under his own wish, and will I.

[FistFu68]

:evilgrin: GodBless You @ Your Brother Riven :usmc: :iwo: