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rheinmark187
04-13-09, 04:58 PM
http://www.marinecorpstimes.com/news/2009/04/marine_marsoc_041209w/

I've seen Army Special Operations people licking their lips over the extra bodies they feel will be going through the 18 Series pipeline with the way MARSOC is handling tours and retention. I think back to an article about one of the NCO's from MSOAG and how much training he had done with the Marine Corps. The article ended saying he was leaving the USMC and taking on an 18x contract with the US Army.

The Marine Corps should look at the problems that other branches have had with this and figure something out before it becomes a real problem.

Pete0331
04-13-09, 05:09 PM
http://www.marinecorpstimes.com/news/2009/04/marine_marsoc_041209w/

I've seen Army Special Operations people licking their lips over the extra bodies they feel will be going through the 18 Series pipeline with the way MARSOC is handling tours and retention. I think back to an article about one of the NCO's from MSOAG and how much training he had done with the Marine Corps. The article ended saying he was leaving the USMC and taking on an 18x contract with the US Army.

The Marine Corps should look at the problems that other branches have had with this and figure something out before it becomes a real problem.

This needs to be addressed soon.
It has been an issue since the inception of MarSOC.

I know of many Marines considering going to the 18X program.
Until these issues have been hammered out, I wouldn't waste my time with MarSOC.

Integrity57
04-13-09, 05:35 PM
From what I understand the Corps did the same thing with their Sniper program before Vietnam, setting up schools in time of war and then desolving them afterwards and in the process losing valuable knowledge and experienced marksmen. The Navy used to do the same thing with the Special Warfare Combatant Craft Crewmen (SWCC) teams, rotating operators thru the teams and sending them back out to the regular Fleet, but eventually made it a Rate of it's own. I don't have a wealth of knowledge about MARSOC but from what I understand they are as Elite of warriors as the SEALs and Army SF or anyone else for that matter. It just doesn't make sense to send them back to conventional units after so much specialized training and dedication.

Alisium
04-13-09, 05:38 PM
Expand MarSOC and give the Marines alternate duty elsewhere on a temporary basis (2 -3) years and cycle them back in. Have a secondary composite/cutting score for stellar Marines to advance and stay within MarSOC instead of going on the temporary duty.

It dosen't make any sense to dump most of your force every five years only to have to recruit new bodies and train them because you want numbers.

Just a thought.

Pete0331
04-13-09, 05:44 PM
From what I understand the Corps did the same thing with their Sniper program before Vietnam, setting up schools in time of war and then desolving them afterwards and in the process losing valuable knowledge and experienced marksmen.

The US military had been doing that since the Civil War.

Pete0331
04-13-09, 05:47 PM
It dosen't make any sense to dump most of your force every five years only to have to recruit new bodies and train them because you want numbers.


Its not about numbers.
The Marine Corps thought they could capitalize on the money coming in from SOCOM.
By rotating guys in and out of MarSOC, they can train guys on SOCOM's dollar and when those Marines rotate back to the FMF they spread their knowledge even further.
That's the theory anyway.

It's not working, as evident by the exodus taking place.

Petz
04-13-09, 06:48 PM
MARSOC is akin to MSG duty... are you saying that you shouldn't be allowed to go back to your MOS???

that hurts promotions for Sgts and above as they have no MOS credibility. and if I'm not mistaken (I might be) but this counts as a B-Billet........

the training is just something that indoctrinates you into what will be required of you... just like recon.

as for retention... the Army has a stupid amount of money they get to throw around for retention (as they haven't gotten their goal yet and they've been working on it for two extra years) and that bonus in their eyes costs less than training someone else... and the fact that a Marine doesn't need to goto boot camp as all services would have to do with us...

any branch getting a Marine is making money.... so 18x is probably 20 grand less than basic training would cost them let alone that advanced training.

the Corps is aware of this kind of stuff and the only way they can change the OCC field into an MOS that rates it's own MOS, then you're looking at having to add another umpteen thousand Marines to the force....

Alisium
04-13-09, 07:39 PM
Its not about numbers.
The Marine Corps thought they could capitalize on the money coming in from SOCOM.
By rotating guys in and out of MarSOC, they can train guys on SOCOM's dollar and when those Marines rotate back to the FMF they spread their knowledge even further.
That's the theory anyway.

It's not working, as evident by the exodus taking place.

Ok. This line confused me then, as far as the numbers game goes.


“The downside is, 20 years from now, you’ve got 1,000 Marines trained as Marine special operators in a closed loop, versus 7,000 of them trained,”

But, I get what you're saying about the rising tide raising all boats.

Experience says that theory won't work well. Unless there has been a significant cultural change in the officer corps since 2003, company level training always takes precedent over small unit training and often (as I saw) relevant experience takes a back seat to company patrols and is wasted.

I remain a cynic.

Petz
04-13-09, 07:43 PM
but you are right... all experience is relative.

I have experience with 5-tons and fixing them... that doesn't make me more experienced than the guy who can repair 7-tons. having this training/rotation will provide the MARSOC community the opportunity to incorporate lessons learned into the next batches training... as they are making it even more rugged and tough.

HurricaneRJ
04-14-09, 01:19 AM
The way I see it. Being a regular 0311 is like being in the Minor Leagues and being in MARSOC is like playing the pros. I can't think of anyone who wants to go back to the Minor Leagues.

Petz
04-14-09, 09:18 AM
um, those who want to be "stellar" players when compared to their peers.

besides, those going back to their old MOS can share the knowledge they learned and make the Marines around them better.

it's a good idea for this kind of set-up. And it's ok for you not to like it... because it's not up to you.

thewookie
04-14-09, 09:51 AM
I read this article in the MC times the other day and I see both points, but I think a closed loop is best suited for special circumstances like this.

The good thing that happens when a Marine leaves MarSoc to head to the fleet is his unit is getting a great training NCO type. Not that the Marine leaving wants that billet, but I bet it finds him. This can and does benefit the Corps greatly as these highly trained Marines spread upper level knowledge and skills to the FMF.

On the flip side, spending all that money to get a MarSoc Marine spun up and then cutting bait, and sending them back to the FMF, is car-azy - and from a fiscal point of view it is shows poor use of an asset. I've thought that for years, long before we got into the SOCOM.

I don't think the missions for these Marines are going to dry-up overnight, there's still plenty of idiots out there that need some attitude adjusting. So I think it's in the Corps best interest to let the good ones stay in the community. Let the good ones stay in MarSoc from Corporal - SSgt. For most that should be about ten years and that is a good amount of time to get your money out of them.

A lot of good Marines get out to go the SF/SEAL route because of this and it's time for the Corps to realize that we are losing some good operators due to bad policy.

Petz
04-14-09, 10:04 AM
as I said... and I'll expand on it was well.

there are lessons learned that they can incorporate into their indoc training. (previous statement)

once they iron all those bugs out and thier indoc training is suited for what they want out of their MARSOC Marines, I'm sure they will look at the long term and retain Marines on a performance as a case-by-case basis... either as trainers, company staff, or even all the way down to platoon leaders.

but they aren't kidding about Marines being out of their MOS for more than 4 years... it hurts their potential for promotion.... and if these MARSOC Marines are getting great PFT/CFT scores, high range scores and anything else that will eventually help with promotion... they are taking up slots from their primary MOS... so you'll have all these NCOS in MARSOC argueing over who gets the billets...

a steady flow of new Marines is a must in this stage of the game, though giving it an MOS should be on the table for down the road. I do however understand the loss issue, but there is only so much the Corps can do... and throwing money at it is an Army tactic... you join the Corps and stay in the Corps because you love the Corps... I would never join the Army even if they offered me 100,000 dollars and 100% pension when I retire at 20.

Semper Fi.

nightstalker2
04-14-09, 10:25 AM
The purpose is to expose those who cannot or will not attend this type of training.
Remember those who did D.I. duty or Recruiting duty and Embassy duty or those who had jump training as maybe others who work as advisors to South America. These Marines, Sailors, or Army personnel bring a wealth of knowledge to those who would not have never been expose to this type of training. China is a force to reckon with and if you cannot improvise overcome and adapt then step aside and let the big dogs run and the confused puppies stay under the porch and not tread in the light of victory.

Alisium
04-14-09, 10:29 AM
as I said... and I'll expand on it was well.

there are lessons learned that they can incorporate into their indoc training. (previous statement)

once they iron all those bugs out and thier indoc training is suited for what they want out of their MARSOC Marines, I'm sure they will look at the long term and retain Marines on a performance as a case-by-case basis... either as trainers, company staff, or even all the way down to platoon leaders.

but they aren't kidding about Marines being out of their MOS for more than 4 years... it hurts their potential for promotion.... and if these MARSOC Marines are getting great PFT/CFT scores, high range scores and anything else that will eventually help with promotion... they are taking up slots from their primary MOS... so you'll have all these NCOS in MARSOC argueing over who gets the billets...

a steady flow of new Marines is a must in this stage of the game, though giving it an MOS should be on the table for down the road. I do however understand the loss issue, but there is only so much the Corps can do... and throwing money at it is an Army tactic... you join the Corps and stay in the Corps because you love the Corps... I would never join the Army even if they offered me 100,000 dollars and 100% pension when I retire at 20.

Semper Fi.

They should have an active program of cycling these Marines back into regular units and actively using them to spin up the companies in some manner. Otherwise, I can see an incoming MarSOC Marine getting a lot of @ss kissing welcomes then being shoved into a platoon never to be heard from again.

So if MarSOC isn't going to change, there needs to be a fundamental shift in the thinking on the company level and up.

Not all of these Marines are Infantry Marines either (or Marines who's special skills will match with their MOS). Spreading that wealth of knowledge isn't going to do a whole lot of good on an Air Traffic Control unit.

I'm with you on the Army thing. Nothing could ever have induced me to switch uniforms. I never understood that mindset.

And I think we're all in agreement on the merit based retention.

Petz
04-14-09, 10:30 AM
The purpose is to expose those who cannot or will not attend this type of training.
Remember those who did D.I. duty or Recruiting duty and Embassy duty or those who had jump training as maybe others who work as advisors to South America. These Marines, Sailors, or Army personnel bring a wealth of knowledge to those who would not have never been expose to this type of training. China is a force to reckon with and if you cannot improvise overcome and adapt then step aside and let the big dogs run and the confused puppies stay under the porch and not tread in the light of victory.

double negative.

and what are you talking about? what is to expose those who can't or will not attend the training?? you mean how difficult it is? I thought we were talking about retention.

I was simply saying they aren't worried about retention at this time since they are ironing out the wrinkles with their training... besides, we don't throw money at our problems. I could find 20 Marines tomorrow who would say good ridence to those who want to leave and join another branch just for a 18x contract. Real Marines don't re-enlist for a bonus... they do it for the love of the Corps... the money is just that, a bonus.

Petz
04-14-09, 10:34 AM
They should have an active program of cycling these Marines back into regular units and actively using them to spin up the companies in some manner. Otherwise, I can see an incoming MarSOC Marine getting a lot of @ss kissing welcomes then being shoved into a platoon never to be heard from again.

So if MarSOC isn't going to change, there needs to be a fundamental shift in the thinking on the company level and up.

Not all of these Marines are Infantry Marines either (or Marines who's special skills will match with their MOS). Spreading that wealth of knowledge isn't going to do a whole lot of good on an Air Traffic Control unit.

I'm with you on the Army thing. Nothing could ever have induced me to switch uniforms. I never understood that mindset.

And I think we're all in agreement on the merit based retention.


I see your point with ATCers... well, you can always allow them to goto a training Bn somewhere.... allow them to lat move... something. You have a great point here.

that is a gap that needs filling.

but again, MARSOC is in it's infancy and we can't expect too much too soon. I like the idea, and I think much of the Force Recon should fall under that type of training... but as it's been said, recon and MARSOC do different types of missions... but that's not to say force recon shouldn't get some of that awesome training...

HurricaneRJ
04-14-09, 10:45 AM
I could find 20 Marines tomorrow who would say good ridence to those who want to leave and join another branch just for a 18x contract. Real Marines don't re-enlist for a bonus... they do it for the love of the Corps... the money is just that, a bonus.
Guess I'm not a real Marine then. Joining the Army for an 18x contract is an option that I'm considering and I don't care about the bonuses. My brother got 20,000 and I got nothing. I personally would rather stay in SOCOM. Because my first squad leader was in MARSOC. The whole company was all excited but once they found out he was not re-enlisting. They put him in H&S and he became a working party master.

Petz
04-14-09, 10:52 AM
you must have missed my point then.

you don't enlist for bonuses... you do it 'cause you love it, you want it. you sound bitter that your brother got $20,000 and you got squat. well I know Senior Marines who have re enlisted more times than you've been in years. each time they re enlist they didn't qualify for a bonus, but either before or shortly after they re enlisted they would have been eligible... all they're peers get the bonus but them.

So if you take offense to what I said, deal with it. I'm not saying this to make you happy, I'm saying it because with our end strength and our current line of poolees waiting to join, you will be replaced... just like you replaced someone before you... the Marine Corps will go on, you are not special

now, to point out, you are considering a 18X contract with the Army yet you don't care about the bonuses... then why not re enlist with the Marine Corps?? if you can't answer that properly then I will deduce it's because of the money.

rheinmark187
04-14-09, 01:30 PM
as I said... and I'll expand on it was well.

there are lessons learned that they can incorporate into their indoc training. (previous statement)

once they iron all those bugs out and thier indoc training is suited for what they want out of their MARSOC Marines, I'm sure they will look at the long term and retain Marines on a performance as a case-by-case basis... either as trainers, company staff, or even all the way down to platoon leaders.

but they aren't kidding about Marines being out of their MOS for more than 4 years... it hurts their potential for promotion.... and if these MARSOC Marines are getting great PFT/CFT scores, high range scores and anything else that will eventually help with promotion... they are taking up slots from their primary MOS... so you'll have all these NCOS in MARSOC argueing over who gets the billets...

a steady flow of new Marines is a must in this stage of the game, though giving it an MOS should be on the table for down the road. I do however understand the loss issue, but there is only so much the Corps can do... and throwing money at it is an Army tactic... you join the Corps and stay in the Corps because you love the Corps... I would never join the Army even if they offered me 100,000 dollars and 100% pension when I retire at 20.

Semper Fi.


I think these folks love the Work, they'll go where the Work is available to them.

Petz
04-14-09, 01:33 PM
... right.

rheinmark187
04-14-09, 01:35 PM
They should have an active program of cycling these Marines back into regular units and actively using them to spin up the companies in some manner. Otherwise, I can see an incoming MarSOC Marine getting a lot of @ss kissing welcomes then being shoved into a platoon never to be heard from again.

So if MarSOC isn't going to change, there needs to be a fundamental shift in the thinking on the company level and up.

Not all of these Marines are Infantry Marines either (or Marines who's special skills will match with their MOS). Spreading that wealth of knowledge isn't going to do a whole lot of good on an Air Traffic Control unit.

I'm with you on the Army thing. Nothing could ever have induced me to switch uniforms. I never understood that mindset.

And I think we're all in agreement on the merit based retention.


That sounds like a good idea.

rheinmark187
04-14-09, 01:37 PM
... right.


You should really ask the people in that line of work what they think. There are verified SOF from all branches on other forums. Plenty of them are former Marines, and of those who aren't, like the Army SF, have talked about MARSOC repeating their mistakes.

Petz
04-14-09, 01:39 PM
did you read everything I posted or are you just commenting on one? re-read everything I said in chronological order if that would make you feel better. I'm not going repeat myself 'cause you don't want to catch up.

rheinmark187
04-14-09, 03:45 PM
did you read everything I posted or are you just commenting on one? re-read everything I said in chronological order if that would make you feel better. I'm not going repeat myself 'cause you don't want to catch up.


I have read your posts and I feel that you don't know what you're talking about. It's as simple as that. You're assuming your priorities are shared by these people. People with very different motivations than your own.

If anything, your posts would probably reinforce the decision of many MARSOC folks to stay as far away from the conventional Marine Corps as possible.

HurricaneRJ
04-14-09, 03:57 PM
you must have missed my point then.

you don't enlist for bonuses... you do it 'cause you love it, you want it. you sound bitter that your brother got $20,000 and you got squat. well I know Senior Marines who have re enlisted more times than you've been in years. each time they re enlist they didn't qualify for a bonus, but either before or shortly after they re enlisted they would have been eligible... all they're peers get the bonus but them.

So if you take offense to what I said, deal with it. I'm not saying this to make you happy, I'm saying it because with our end strength and our current line of poolees waiting to join, you will be replaced... just like you replaced someone before you... the Marine Corps will go on, you are not special

now, to point out, you are considering a 18X contract with the Army yet you don't care about the bonuses... then why not re enlist with the Marine Corps?? if you can't answer that properly then I will deduce it's because of the money.
I'm shooting you a PM SSgt.

Petz
04-15-09, 02:29 AM
I have read your posts and I feel that you don't know what you're talking about. It's as simple as that. You're assuming your priorities are shared by these people. People with very different motivations than your own.

If anything, your posts would probably reinforce the decision of many MARSOC folks to stay as far away from the conventional Marine Corps as possible.


what you really don't understand is that I'm looking at it from a perspective of why the Marine Corps is doing what it is doing for retention of the MARSOC Marines. I have added my own opinions and they are just that... I really could care less if you agree with them... in my personal list of people I want to impress, you are not even an afterthought.

A Marine is a Marine wheter or not they are a linguist or MARSOC Marine... if you want to get out of the Corps after getting training, fine, go.. the Corps got it's value out of you... you are replaceable... you obviously don't need to be here, nor do you WANT to be here.

so my views will not mesh with these Marines because it's not a matter of them liking MARSOC/SPECOPS and wanting to continue doing it by joining the Army... it's a matter of them not wanting to be a Marine, and I have no sympathy for Marines who take 100's of thousands of dollars worth of training and give it to the Army.

I don't care enough to ask them why they want to go... an 18X contract is still a contract... and they are going for the money... otherwise they should turn down the 18x... show their not pussies.

so what's your story???

willjr75
04-15-09, 07:21 AM
SSgt Petzold (http://www.leatherneck.com/forums/member.php?u=51613) wrote:

so my views will not mesh with these Marines because it's not a matter of them liking MARSOC/SPECOPS and wanting to continue doing it by joining the Army... it's a matter of them not wanting to be a Marine, and I have no sympathy for Marines who take 100's of thousands of dollars worth of training and give it to the Army.


This makes no sense to me. while I love the Corps, I and anyone else can disagree with it and leave it to join something else. It is our right. You cannot question someone's love for the Corps because they leave or may want to leave.

A Few Quick Questions SSGT:

If the Corps decided to get rid of Infantry and all Infantry related mos's and make every Marine a Supplyman or cook, would you stay for the love of the Corps or perhaps join the Army or try the civilian sector?

Is someone who trained and served as an 0311 for 4 years in the Corps and gets out and joins some law enforcement organization, someone who you would say does not love the Corps because he took 100's of thousands of dollars worth of training to give it to a law enforcement organization?

Marines leave the Corps for many different reasons. Millions have left. Not all have stayed till retirement. You cannot question their love for the Corps.

rheinmark187
04-15-09, 05:00 PM
what you really don't understand is that I'm looking at it from a perspective of why the Marine Corps is doing what it is doing for retention of the MARSOC Marines. I have added my own opinions and they are just that... I really could care less if you agree with them... in my personal list of people I want to impress, you are not even an afterthought.

A Marine is a Marine wheter or not they are a linguist or MARSOC Marine... if you want to get out of the Corps after getting training, fine, go.. the Corps got it's value out of you... you are replaceable... you obviously don't need to be here, nor do you WANT to be here.

so my views will not mesh with these Marines because it's not a matter of them liking MARSOC/SPECOPS and wanting to continue doing it by joining the Army... it's a matter of them not wanting to be a Marine, and I have no sympathy for Marines who take 100's of thousands of dollars worth of training and give it to the Army.

I don't care enough to ask them why they want to go... an 18X contract is still a contract... and they are going for the money... otherwise they should turn down the 18x... show their not pussies.

so what's your story???

"I don't care enough to ask them why they want to go... an 18X contract is still a contract... and they are going for the money... otherwise they should turn down the 18x... show their not pussies."

What's good for MARSOC is good for the Marine Corps, not everything that's "good" for the Marine Corps is good for Marsoc. A thriving and highly capable Marsoc adds to Marine Corps capabilities, positively effects recruitment as a "Halo" unit--you think the NAVY would be getting as many enlisted people with real life experience and graduate degrees, not to mention Olympic Medalists if they didn't have the Navy Seals?

How many young 11b's join the Army because they want a shot at some point in their career at getting into Rangers and SF. The same thing is a selling point for USCG and USAF, prestige units benefit the entire service in recruitment and esprit de corps--before we even get into the highly demanding and perishable skillset that the service is able to offer the American people.

It seems like you have a heavy amount of Institutional Bias, which can be a good thing. But to say that these highly trained individuals, who've sacrificed quite a bit more than the average member of the military to get where they are "Pussies" for joining another branch of the military...it's just stupid.

If I'm a highly dedicated college football player and my school cuts my scholarship, should I give up football to stay loyal to the college? No, I'll go and make a transfer, because that's my DREAM. I love Georgetown, but if Texas or Boston College said hey, we'll let you play with us---I'd be strapping on a new helmet that fall.

Accord
04-16-09, 12:57 AM
The way I see it. Being a regular 0311 is like being in the Minor Leagues and being in MARSOC is like playing the pros. I can't think of anyone who wants to go back to the Minor Leagues.

That's a pretty bad example. Being an 0311 is definitely not the minor leagues, when the rounds start flying past your head it doesn't matter if you're some super elite secret squirrel or a regular old grunt. The Recon platoon attached to my unit in Afghanistan was completely combat ineffective, miserably failed three consecutive missions, and as a result the MEU colonel wouldn't let them leave the wire for the rest of the deployment, all the while "normal" infantry line companies were out there getting it done. MARSOC ain't the major leagues.

Accord
04-16-09, 01:03 AM
Guess I'm not a real Marine then. Joining the Army for an 18x contract is an option that I'm considering and I don't care about the bonuses. My brother got 20,000 and I got nothing. I personally would rather stay in SOCOM. Because my first squad leader was in MARSOC. The whole company was all excited but once they found out he was not re-enlisting. They put him in H&S and he became a working party master.Dude, I know exactly what you mean. If you don't conform to the Marine Corps' way of doing things, they will **** you no matter who you are. My best friend was a scout sniper on deployment, ended up receiving a NAVCOM w/ V, and when we got back from deployment began the process of going to MARSOC. What did our battalion do to help out this stellar Marine? Put him on every single weekend and 96 duty, put him on ADVON for every training op, and right now my unit is up here on a 3 week training op at AP Hill, VA and he is on ****ing mess duty serving up chow next to the weak limited duty *****es and ****bags of the unit. That's how the Marine Corps treats their best Marines, and for all these motard officers who don't know what the "real" Marine Corps is like and all these SNCO's who can't understand why anyone wouldn't want to reenlist in their beloved Corps, they really need to open their eyes and look at how the good Marines, those who fall into the TOP 10%, are actually treated.

Accord
04-16-09, 01:23 AM
So if you take offense to what I said, deal with it. I'm not saying this to make you happy, I'm saying it because with our end strength and our current line of poolees waiting to join, you will be replaced... just like you replaced someone before you... the Marine Corps will go on, you are not special

now, to point out, you are considering a 18X contract with the Army yet you don't care about the bonuses... [/b]then why not re enlist[/b] with the Marine Corps?? if you can't answer that properly then I will deduce it's because of the money.

You just answered your own question. It is an institutional-wide problem of SNCO's in the Marine Corps constantly reminding their Marines that they're pieces of ****, that they're nothing special, that they're easily replaceable - then these SAME Marines such as yourself wonder why your best Marines don't reenlist. It's the culture SNCO's in the modern day Marine Corps, and it's straight ****ed up.

If you have what it takes to fulfill the obligations of an 18X Army Special Forces contract, Navy SEAL challenge contract, etc. then that IS something special and you can be damned sure that you won't ever be told by your superiors in those fields that you're easily replaceable, because you're not.

As I write this post I am sitting here at a computer next to several members of the 3rd SFG, having spent the past 2 weeks with them here in Virginia and observing their training and the way they operate, you would be insane to not want to be a part of that - if you consider yourself a warrior.

HurricaneRJ
04-16-09, 01:37 AM
Your post is exactly what happened to my first squad leader. At Ft. Pickett in charge of cooking food. All that MARSOC training and you have him cooking food??? A trained scout sniper but they had...

Petz
04-16-09, 02:14 AM
SSgt Petzold (http://www.leatherneck.com/forums/member.php?u=51613) wrote:

so my views will not mesh with these Marines because it's not a matter of them liking MARSOC/SPECOPS and wanting to continue doing it by joining the Army... it's a matter of them not wanting to be a Marine, and I have no sympathy for Marines who take 100's of thousands of dollars worth of training and give it to the Army.


This makes no sense to me. while I love the Corps, I and anyone else can disagree with it and leave it to join something else. It is our right. You cannot question someone's love for the Corps because they leave or may want to leave.

and you said it didn't make sense.

A Few Quick Questions SSGT:

If the Corps decided to get rid of Infantry and all Infantry related mos's and make every Marine a Supplyman or cook, would you stay for the love of the Corps or perhaps join the Army or try the civilian sector?

I'm begining to think you're an idiot...
Yes I would

Is someone who trained and served as an 0311 for 4 years in the Corps and gets out and joins some law enforcement organization, someone who you would say does not love the Corps because he took 100's of thousands of dollars worth of training to give it to a law enforcement organization?

you must not understand how the military does it's budget... learn and then we can have a conversation about what I tried to explain to you.

Marines leave the Corps for many different reasons. Millions have left. Not all have stayed till retirement. You cannot question their love for the Corps.

wow, really! I thought all these old salty Cpls on this site were retired!! don't insult my intelligence kid.
yes I can



now... I really would love to get into a more in-depth conversation with you about your rant, but you won't listen and you are dead set in your thoughts... if you want to hear me out then PM me.

Petz
04-16-09, 02:28 AM
"I don't care enough to ask them why they want to go... an 18X contract is still a contract... and they are going for the money... otherwise they should turn down the 18x... show their not pussies."

What's good for MARSOC is good for the Marine Corps, not everything that's "good" for the Marine Corps is good for Marsoc.

I'm interested in hearing an example.

A thriving and highly capable Marsoc adds to Marine Corps capabilities,

no it doesn't... they work with SOCOM, not the Marine Corps... they do their own thing.

positively effects recruitment as a "Halo" unit

we don't need that kind of recruiting tool.

--you think the NAVY would be getting as many enlisted people with real life experience and graduate degrees, not to mention Olympic Medalists if they didn't have the Navy Seals?

How many young 11b's join the Army because they want a shot at some point in their career at getting into Rangers and SF. The same thing is a selling point for USCG and USAF, prestige units benefit the entire service in recruitment and esprit de corps--before we even get into the highly demanding and perishable skillset that the service is able to offer the American people.

how many are given the bait and switch sale of those special forces? you attempt to make a good point but fail to hammer her home... keep trying though.

It seems like you have a heavy amount of Institutional Bias, which can be a good thing. But to say that these highly trained individuals, who've sacrificed quite a bit more than the average member of the military to get where they are "Pussies" for joining another branch of the military...it's just stupid.

I'm not biased in any way... you may think so because you are a scorned Marine... you have a bitter taste in your mouth 'cause you got idiots as leaders... if that IS the problem. as for those pussies... they know when they join MARSOC it's for a short duty... then to say they don't want to do anything else except SOCOM and join the army because of it... well... doesn't that sound childish to you or is it just me? You joined the Marines... why? not because it was easier... so when something doesn't go your way you just quit and goto the branch that will give you what you want... classic mommy, daddy game that children play.

If I'm a highly dedicated college football player and my school cuts my scholarship, should I give up football to stay loyal to the college?

yes and no... NO you shouldn't give up football, YES you should stay loyal to the college... just 'cause you screwed up your grades and lost your free ride doesn't mean as a man, you should give up and say it's too hard or you didn't get what you wanted... imagine the reason... you joined just for the scholarship and as soon as you don't get it... you want to quit and go home.... childish.

No, I'll go and make a transfer, because that's my DREAM. I love Georgetown, but if Texas or Boston College said hey, we'll let you play with us---I'd be strapping on a new helmet that fall.

no one ever said you couldn't play... you even said "...my school cuts my scholarship, should I give up football to stay loyal to the college?" yes god damn-it... 'cause football has nothing to do with your damn scholarship!




you make points that contradict what you want to say... yes I get your point, but it's weak... you failed at convincing me that I'm wrong in calling people who take the training and quit to bring it to the Army... who gets a budget to train soldiers in the same job... but would prefer to get someone who's already trained... so they pay a 18X contract.

keep at it... like I said, you made some good points.

Petz
04-16-09, 02:41 AM
You just answered your own question. It is an institutional-wide problem of SNCO's in the Marine Corps constantly reminding their Marines that they're pieces of ****

don't lump me in with those SNCOs you've encountered... when have I ever made anyone here into a piece of sh!t? it sounds like you have issues with your chain of command and should take that up with them... that is if you're not afraid to, other than me saying that... you really don't want to start calling me or any other SNCO fvcked up when you're here complaining about how you are treated by another Marine... yet not doing a damned thing about it. maybe they're fvcking with you 'cause you ARE ****ed up... someone who is b!tching as much as you MUST be perfect... otherwise all your gripeing is meaningless.

, that they're nothing special, that they're easily replaceable

you saying we're not? Ok Marine... you are special... do you want me to make you some coffee and grab you a snack?

- then these SAME Marines such as yourself wonder why your best Marines don't reenlist.

no I don't... the best Marines get great paying jobs in the civilian world.

It's the culture SNCO's in the modern day Marine Corps, and it's straight ****ed up.

how would you know what the SNCOs of old did? how long you been in LCpl??? how bout you don't bring up how things were done before you got in the Corps...

If you have what it takes to fulfill the obligations of an 18X Army Special Forces contract,

it's just enlisting into the army as SOCOM material...

Navy SEAL challenge contract, etc. then that IS something special and you can be damned sure that you won't ever be told by your superiors in those fields that you're easily replaceable, because you're not.

so MARSOC isn't special from what you are saying... 'cause they train new Marines all the time... they ARE replaceable... otherwise they would never send them out into combat to possibly get killed... 'cause they are special and irreplacable. What fantasy land are you living in... are you really in the Corps?!


As I write this post I am sitting here at a computer next to several members of the 3rd SFG, having spent the past 2 weeks with them here in Virginia and observing their training and the way they operate, you would be insane to not want to be a part of that - if you consider yourself a warrior.

I prefer doing my job which makes them capable of doing theirs... we're all warriors.. some just have a differnt mission.




this was very disrespectful... but it has by far the best points....

I think it's a bit whiny to be taken seriously... makes me think the Marine is a bird who is trying to justify why his leadership comes down hard on him and others who HE deems "special"

think about your attitude when you write stuff like this... it shows up in your writting.

Petz
04-16-09, 02:45 AM
I can't even fathom the decision making of those senior leaders in putting him on mess duty... however, being put on ADVON is because you know your sh!t... not because you're a bird. <br />
<br />
as for that...

thewookie
04-16-09, 05:50 AM
That's a pretty bad example. Being an 0311 is definitely not the minor leagues, when the rounds start flying past your head it doesn't matter if you're some super elite secret squirrel or a regular old grunt. The Recon platoon attached to my unit in Afghanistan was completely combat ineffective, miserably failed three consecutive missions, and as a result the MEU colonel wouldn't let them leave the wire for the rest of the deployment, all the while "normal" infantry line companies were out there getting it done. MARSOC ain't the major leagues.

After hearing your story about how the armor piercing round was stopped by your pack I don't believe a word you say. I doubt any of this happened, or not how your telling. Have they decided which action figure to make you?

rheinmark187
04-16-09, 11:39 AM
That's a pretty bad example. Being an 0311 is definitely not the minor leagues, when the rounds start flying past your head it doesn't matter if you're some super elite secret squirrel or a regular old grunt. The Recon platoon attached to my unit in Afghanistan was completely combat ineffective, miserably failed three consecutive missions, and as a result the MEU colonel wouldn't let them leave the wire for the rest of the deployment, all the while "normal" infantry line companies were out there getting it done. MARSOC ain't the major leagues.


It wasn't detached from 3rd Recon Battalion was it?

If it was, they've got problems (mostly beyond their control) that puts them definitely well below 1st and 2nd Recon Battalion in terms of effectiveness. If that was a 3rd Recon Battalion platoon, I wouldn't take them as an example of the skills of Recon as a whole, they'd be an outlier.

HurricaneRJ
04-16-09, 12:17 PM
That's a pretty bad example. Being an 0311 is definitely not the minor leagues, when the rounds start flying past your head it doesn't matter if you're some super elite secret squirrel or a regular old grunt. The Recon platoon attached to my unit in Afghanistan was completely combat ineffective, miserably failed three consecutive missions, and as a result the MEU colonel wouldn't let them leave the wire for the rest of the deployment, all the while "normal" infantry line companies were out there getting it done. MARSOC ain't the major leagues.
Wasn't talking about the 0311 Marine, I'm talking about the training that us regular grunts gets.

Pete0331
04-16-09, 01:31 PM
Dude, I know exactly what you mean. If you don't conform to the Marine Corps' way of doing things, they will **** you no matter who you are. My best friend was a scout sniper on deployment, ended up receiving a NAVCOM w/ V, and when we got back from deployment began the process of going to MARSOC. What did our battalion do to help out this stellar Marine? Put him on every single weekend and 96 duty, put him on ADVON for every training op, and right now my unit is up here on a 3 week training op at AP Hill, VA and he is on ****ing mess duty serving up chow next to the weak limited duty *****es and ****bags of the unit. That's how the Marine Corps treats their best Marines, and for all these motard officers who don't know what the "real" Marine Corps is like and all these SNCO's who can't understand why anyone wouldn't want to reenlist in their beloved Corps, they really need to open their eyes and look at how the good Marines, those who fall into the TOP 10%, are actually treated.

Anecdotal evidence.
Just because a command gets butt hurt about a guy wanting to leave doesn't mean that's the way it is Marine Corps wide.
Thats just a sh!tty command.

I've seen commands that are both ways.
Those are just horrible leaders.

Pete0331
04-16-09, 01:41 PM
Another thing I've noticed about Recon and how a command may employ them:
A Lt.Col doesn't like to be told "we aren't going to do that."
That is what Recon does, and must do.
They have a specific mission and the skills to accomplish their mission.
Many commands don't know how to use them effectively, and when they try to employ them in a role not suited to their skills Recon SNCO's and Officers let them know.
Battalion Recon is not trained for Direct Action or doing raids.
They are a unit designed for observation of the objective.


Resentment plays a huge role also.
Many of the regular line officers resent Recon and their long hair and what they perceive to be a "cowboy" attitude.
It doesn't help that they have shinny stuff on their breast.

Alisium
04-16-09, 01:54 PM
I think I understand where the devil dog is coming from. If you're working above your pay grade well then it should be your pay grade. Somehow the billet should be factored into the composite score.

The infantry is such a different animal from the rest of the Marine Corps there should be some additional considerations.

That's not to say other MOSs don't have Marines serving above their pay grade but it's just much more common in the infantry. You can have less experienced Cpls come in and be recognized for their inexperience and be given billets below that of a Lcpl. It creates an ambiguous mess at times. How about a squad full of Cpls and not a single one is the other two squads are both ran by Lcpls.

A lot is due to the traffic jam of retention and I'd love to get into a discussion about how the Marine Corps can eliminate huge portions of the pog side of the house and increase the Infantry program without ever increasing overall end strength. But I shan't here.

charm1110
04-16-09, 02:27 PM
You're right Accord 0311's are not Minor Leaguers , however the comparison is a little off base considering that the Marines in MARSOC have already been trained in their particular MOS so there's a lot more money that is spent to train the replacements of the Marines that leave their units to do MARSOC. The issue is retention of these Marines in their specialty and allowing them opportunities for promotion without it screwing up the rest of the Marines that have the same primary MOS. I honestly believe that if the RECON/MARSOC element were developed as a separate MOS category for those purposes the problem would be solved and the competition for promotions (and bonuses)could remain in the ranks of within those units. Also putting say a 3 yr. min. time in service requirement could help insure that Marines would have time to serve in their regular MOS and after that any Marine that applied for it would have enough of a history for higher-ups to make a reasonable judgement on someones overall suitability for the assignment. I agree with the Ssgt. in that the Marine Corps. cannot afford to continually lose these highly trained(read expensive) Marines after one enlistment to other branches because of bonus or promotion opportunities. This same problem exists wherever there are highly trained, uniqely skilled individuals someone invests time and often lots of money to devlop a capable& competent employee only to have someone else come along and steal that person away with promises of greener pastures.

Semper Fi...:flag:

Accord
04-16-09, 02:51 PM
You're right Accord 0311's are not Minor Leaguers , however the comparison is a little off base considering that the Marines in MARSOC have already been trained in their particular MOS so there's a lot more money that is spent to train the replacements of the Marines that leave their units to do MARSOC. The issue is retention of these Marines in their specialty and allowing them opportunities for promotion without it screwing up the rest of the Marines that have the same primary MOS. I honestly believe that if the RECON/MARSOC element were developed as a separate MOS category for those purposes the problem would be solved and the competition for promotions (and bonuses)could remain in the ranks of within those units. Also putting say a 3 yr. min. time in service requirement could help insure that Marines would have time to serve in their regular MOS and after that any Marine that applied for it would have enough of a history for higher-ups to make a reasonable judgement on someones overall suitability for the assignment. I agree with the Ssgt. in that the Marine Corps. cannot afford to continually lose these highly trained(read expensive) Marines after one enlistment to other branches because of bonus or promotion opportunities. This same problem exists wherever there are highly trained, uniqely skilled individuals someone invests time and often lots of money to devlop a capable& competent employee only to have someone else come along and steal that person away with promises of greener pastures.

Semper Fi...:flag:
I don't really buy into the notion that MARSOC is effecting those still operating in their regular MOS'. Most MARSOC Marines are already 0321's and 0317's so it wouldn't really effect those in a conventional 03 MOS.

Our unit just had a SSgt check in after spending several years in MARSOC, this SSgt despite all the schooling and everything else never deployed while he was with MARSOC and never got to use any of his high speed training. When he checked into our unit they made him the platoon sgt. of STA Plt. That was a good decision and a good place for him, and he'll be able to teach the guys in STA valuable skillsets he learned in MARSOC that they'll be able to actually put to good use while operating. This is one example of the Marine Corps using a guy who spent years in MARSOC in a positive way, the problem is for every good story like this one there are a hundred negative ones.

Accord
04-16-09, 03:03 PM
Oh, the level of training regular grunts receive is nothing short of disgraceful. If you don't have motivated senior guys that are genuinely interested in the well being and training of their junior...

Accord
04-16-09, 03:05 PM
It wasn't detached from 3rd Recon Battalion was it?

If it was, they've got problems (mostly beyond their control) that puts them definitely well below 1st and 2nd Recon Battalion in terms of effectiveness. If that was a 3rd Recon Battalion platoon, I wouldn't take them as an example of the skills of Recon as a whole, they'd be an outlier.

The plt was from 2nd Recon. They definitely enjoyed sitting inside the FOB working on their tans in their black silkies. They made a sign and put it in front of their hooch "Don't feed the animals." They were the joke of the deployment.

Accord
04-16-09, 03:11 PM
After hearing your story about how the armor piercing round was stopped by your pack I don't believe a word you say. I doubt any of this happened, or not how your telling. Have they decided which action figure to make you?

http://photos-f.ak.fbcdn.net/photos-ak-snc1/v319/228/37/1071021164/n1071021164_30160045_3697.jpg

Would you like a picture of the round as well? It's been around my dog chain since the day it happened.

I may talk a lot of **** on here, come off as having a big ego, etc. but I don't ****ing lie, i'm a Marine and I don't ****ing lie. Unlike a lot of Marines I actually follow the Corps values and take them to heart.

Alisium
04-16-09, 03:12 PM
What unit are you with? <br />
<br />
Our biggest problems were the effects of company business. We always looked for ways to train or be trained on the small unit level but something from the company always...

DocGreek
04-16-09, 03:20 PM
DUMB QUESTION.....what's MARSOC?? Does the Navy have something similar?....SORRY, just a dumb Greek Doc......DOC

Alisium
04-16-09, 03:37 PM
DUMB QUESTION.....what's MARSOC?? Does the Navy have something similar?....SORRY, just a dumb Greek Doc......DOC

Here's a quick wiki on MarSoc. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Marine_Corps_Forces_Special_Operatio ns_Command)

AlwaysWillBe
04-16-09, 03:40 PM
DUMB QUESTION.....what's MARSOC?? Does the Navy have something similar?....SORRY, just a dumb Greek Doc......DOC

Say Doc... not a dumb Greek Doc...I had to look it up myself.....
Glad you are nearby, the way they were going at it I thought I was gonna have to ask ya to come out of retirment and patch a few of these guys up!

It stands for
U.S. Marine Corps Forces
Special Operations Command
according to it's web page.

charm1110
04-16-09, 03:48 PM
I don't really buy into the notion that MARSOC is effecting those still operating in their regular MOS'. Most MARSOC Marines are already 0321's and 0317's so it wouldn't really effect those in a conventional 03 MOS.[/QOUTE]

That may or may not be accurate I've been out of the Corps. too long to know the makeup of the MARSOC units, as far as MOS breakdowns go. As expressed by the Ssgt. in his earlier posts it does have an effect on at least some MOS' and pay grades.

[QUOTE]Our unit just had a SSgt check in after spending several years in MARSOC, this SSgt despite all the schooling and everything else never deployed while he was with MARSOC and never got to use any of his high speed training. When he checked into our unit they made him the platoon sgt. of STA Plt. That was a good decision and a good place for him, and he'll be able to teach the guys in STA valuable skillsets he learned in MARSOC that they'll be able to actually put to good use while operating. This is one example of the Marine Corps using a guy who spent years in MARSOC in a positive way, the problem is for every good story like this one there are a hundred negative ones.

Obviously this is a win/win situation for now, this Marine is adding value to your unit by extension of his training being passed on to other Marines. How many are not ? is the question and Why? and then How does the Marine Corps. effectively deal with the plugging the drain?

AlwaysWillBe
04-16-09, 03:51 PM
Would you like a picture of the round as well? It's been around my dog chain since the day it happened.

I may talk a lot of **** on here, come off as having a big ego, etc. but I don't ****ing lie, i'm a Marine and I don't ****ing lie. Unlike a lot of Marines I actually follow the Corps values and take them to heart.

Hi Accord.... nice picture... like they say, it's worth a thousand words.
Next someone will be asking to see it and the round...
I take it you didn't get hit by the round, which is a good thing.

As for this entire thread...Geesssh guys...everyone, lets lighten up a bit here. No reason to start a friggen war over this.
:beer:

Pete0331
04-16-09, 04:05 PM
Would you like a picture of the round as well? It's been around my dog chain since the day it happened.

I may talk a lot of **** on here, come off as having a big ego, etc. but I don't ****ing lie, i'm a Marine and I don't ****ing lie. Unlike a lot of Marines I actually follow the Corps values and take them to heart.

I blinked and missed the story.

500D and 1000D Cordura will not stop bullets.
If it could that is what we would be wearing instead of body armor.
Bullets bounce off surfaces and loose a large amount of their energy when they do.

No one is calling into question your integrity, but they are scrutinizing your situation.
Lcpl's aren't the most reputable when it comes to speaking all the truths when it comes to an event.
Especially when they think they're salty after one deployment.

rheinmark187
04-16-09, 04:10 PM
To put it further into perspective, it was even WORSE before 9/11. Isn't that crazy that your building block for training is handled in such a haphazard manner? I think it set a bad tone for a lot of...

MARSOC0211
04-16-09, 04:55 PM
As a Plank Owner at 1st MSOB, I can tell you that many at 1st are very disgruntled in the way the Corps is handling it's SOF personnel. I for one, along with many of my 0321 friends are already looking into the "Blue to Green" program in reference to the 18 series programs. Frankly, the Marine Corps is going backwards in regards to SOF, refusing to take the lessons learned from Army SF and the SEALs, in order to "blaze our own path in SOCOM". Due to this, many of us were accepted to go to selection for other units but had the kabosh put on it at our highest echelon. This should give all of you insight prior to making the decision to going MARSOC.... Right now, the place to be in the Marine Corps is going to be at Force Recon when they stand back up...But if you insist on becomming SOF, do it right and look at the Army.

One more thing, ask yourself this, does a SOF unit have personnel that are completely competent at their job, or do they get guys straight out of SOI ans MOS school?? 1st MSOB has an over abundance of E1 - E3, but I know 7th Group is comprised of all (mature) NCOs and above....

Alisium
04-16-09, 05:09 PM
There you go, straight from the horses mouth.

Alisium
04-16-09, 05:14 PM
:iwo:
I blinked and missed the story.

500D and 1000D Cordura will not stop bullets.
If it could that is what we would be wearing instead of body armor.
Bullets bounce off surfaces and loose a large amount of their energy when they do.

No one is calling into question your integrity, but they are scrutinizing your situation.
Lcpl's aren't the most reputable when it comes to speaking all the truths when it comes to an event.
Especially when they think they're salty after one deployment.

I think he was saying earlier that his pack and everything in it stopped the round.

thewookie
04-16-09, 05:25 PM
:iwo:

I think he was saying earlier that his pack and everything in it stopped the round.

Everything in the pack, too, yeah, like the rifle cleaning kit,, that makes sense now. Of course I am being sarcastic. I don't care what ya say, there is no pack on the planet that will stop a 7.62 armor piercing round. Fill it with what you want, add a few sapi plates, it ain't happening. Ain't happening. But, it's your story Accord, tell it how you want.

By golly I have it, the new up armor for tanks and trucks and all that sheet can be corduroy and leather. You should be in sales bro, selling that story. :)

rheinmark187
04-16-09, 05:46 PM
As a Plank Owner at 1st MSOB, I can tell you that many at 1st are very disgruntled in the way the Corps is handling it's SOF personnel. I for one, along with many of my 0321 friends are already looking into the "Blue to Green" program in reference to the 18 series programs. Frankly, the Marine Corps is going backwards in regards to SOF, refusing to take the lessons learned from Army SF and the SEALs, in order to "blaze our own path in SOCOM". Due to this, many of us were accepted to go to selection for other units but had the kabosh put on it at our highest echelon. This should give all of you insight prior to making the decision to going MARSOC.... Right now, the place to be in the Marine Corps is going to be at Force Recon when they stand back up...But if you insist on becomming SOF, do it right and look at the Army.

One more thing, ask yourself this, does a SOF unit have personnel that are completely competent at their job, or do they get guys straight out of SOI ans MOS school?? 1st MSOB has an over abundance of E1 - E3, but I know 7th Group is comprised of all (mature) NCOs and above....


You have E1's and E2's at an MSOB? How does that work out. Are they on OJT before heading to the ITC? Or are they support MOS's from MSOSG and H&S company.

Accord
04-16-09, 06:45 PM
I blinked and missed the story.

500D and 1000D Cordura will not stop bullets.
If it could that is what we would be wearing instead of body armor.
Bullets bounce off surfaces and loose a large amount of their energy when they do.

No one is calling into question your integrity, but they are scrutinizing your situation.
Lcpl's aren't the most reputable when it comes to speaking all the truths when it comes to an event.
Especially when they think they're salty after one deployment.

I never said my pack stopped an armor piercing round, that's ridiculous. The round got stuck inside the middle of my pack after penetrating a ****load of gear.

rheinmark187
04-16-09, 07:53 PM
I never said my pack stopped an armor piercing round, that's ridiculous. The round got stuck inside the middle of my pack after penetrating a ****load of gear.


Do you all come across SNCO's (not talking about 1st. Sergeants) in your CoC that haven't been in Combat yet?

I'm thinking there are many folks with just so much more experience than some of the more senior people.

Accord
04-16-09, 10:14 PM
Do you all come across SNCO's (not talking about 1st. Sergeants) in your CoC that haven't been in Combat yet?

I'm thinking there are many folks with just so much more experience than some of the more senior people.

Yes, that's what's going on in my platoon right now. Our plt sgt who is a Gunny was on the recruiting field for 8 years and never deployed before that, instead of trying to change things, do things his way, etc. when he checked into our unit he took a step back, told all of his senior Marines that we were his combat experience and he'll always listen to us and never make a decision without asking us what we think first. He's been cool and let us basically run the platoon and do our thing, but i've seen other platoons that weren't as lucky...

HurricaneRJ
04-17-09, 07:58 AM
The same **** happened to you too??? I had to personally seek advice from a Cpl. who was getting out because my Senior LCpls. were too salty to do anything and all they wanted to do is make us...

Petz
04-17-09, 08:09 AM
I think I understand where the devil dog is coming from. If you're working above your pay grade well then it should be your pay grade. Somehow the billet should be factored into the composite score.

The infantry is such a different animal from the rest of the Marine Corps there should be some additional considerations.

That's not to say other MOSs don't have Marines serving above their pay grade but it's just much more common in the infantry. You can have less experienced Cpls come in and be recognized for their inexperience and be given billets below that of a Lcpl. It creates an ambiguous mess at times. How about a squad full of Cpls and not a single one is the other two squads are both ran by Lcpls.

A lot is due to the traffic jam of retention and I'd love to get into a discussion about how the Marine Corps can eliminate huge portions of the pog side of the house and increase the Infantry program without ever increasing overall end strength. But I shan't here.


it is.... it's called PRO/CON marks.

Petz
04-17-09, 08:12 AM
You're right Accord 0311's are not Minor Leaguers , however the comparison is a little off base considering that the Marines in MARSOC have already been trained in their particular MOS so there's a lot more money that is spent to train the replacements of the Marines that leave their units to do MARSOC. The issue is retention of these Marines in their specialty and allowing them opportunities for promotion without it screwing up the rest of the Marines that have the same primary MOS. I honestly believe that if the RECON/MARSOC element were developed as a separate MOS category for those purposes the problem would be solved and the competition for promotions (and bonuses)could remain in the ranks of within those units. Also putting say a 3 yr. min. time in service requirement could help insure that Marines would have time to serve in their regular MOS and after that any Marine that applied for it would have enough of a history for higher-ups to make a reasonable judgement on someones overall suitability for the assignment. I agree with the Ssgt. in that the Marine Corps. cannot afford to continually lose these highly trained(read expensive) Marines after one enlistment to other branches because of bonus or promotion opportunities. This same problem exists wherever there are highly trained, uniqely skilled individuals someone invests time and often lots of money to devlop a capable& competent employee only to have someone else come along and steal that person away with promises of greener pastures.

Semper Fi...:flag:


it is...

Petz
04-17-09, 08:15 AM
discipline....

Petz
04-17-09, 08:16 AM
http://photos-f.ak.fbcdn.net/photos-ak-snc1/v319/228/37/1071021164/n1071021164_30160045_3697.jpg

Would you like a picture of the round as well? It's been around my dog chain since the day it happened.

I may talk a lot of **** on here, come off as having a big ego, etc. but I don't ****ing lie, i'm a Marine and I don't ****ing lie. Unlike a lot of Marines I actually follow the Corps values and take them to heart.


was it a 7.62 x 39???

MARSOC0211
04-17-09, 11:59 AM
You have E1's and E2's at an MSOB? How does that work out. Are they on OJT before heading to the ITC? Or are they support MOS's from MSOSG and H&S company.


Yep, E1-E3 running around, mostly support guys. i.e. Comm, Motor T, Supply, H&S, etc. But if you go to a group, even their support guys are typically E5s and E6s....

Needless to say, it doesn't work out too well for us, trying to get support from an element full of personnel who have no job experience.

BR34
04-17-09, 01:07 PM
was it a 7.62 x 39???

How would he know that without having the ejected brass, or actually seeing the weapon it was fired from?

I'd guess that it was x 39 though, cause x 52 or 54 probably wouldn't have been stopped by gear in a pack.

Alisium
04-17-09, 01:41 PM
it is.... it's called PRO/CON marks.

Respectfully, I disagree SSgt.

If you're a 5.0/5.0 Lcpl team Leader (already above your pay-grade) you're showing that you've maxed out on the knowledge and ability you should have at your current level. If you are moved to a squad leader billet there are not proficiency marks to reflect that you showed competence, not only in your position but, two positions above you.

Let's say a Corporal was kicking butt in a billet meant for SNCO's and above. Would you say that he's merely 100% proficient in his position? No way, this kid is doing things that the Marine Corps says you need at least two enlistments to learn how to do. (assuming the average Sgt is in his second enlistment when he picks up SSgt). He's 120% proficient.

Same goes for that young Lance Coolie serving as a squad leader, one of the most difficult jobs in the Marine Corps.

So this young Marine is working above his proficiency yet there is no way to reflect that. There's no way to say 120% proficient in a proficiency mark.

rheinmark187
04-17-09, 04:59 PM
Yep, E1-E3 running around, mostly support guys. i.e. Comm, Motor T, Supply, H&S, etc. But if you go to a group, even their support guys are typically E5s and E6s....

Needless to say, it doesn't work out too well for us, trying to get support from an element full of personnel who have no job experience.

Okay SSGT. I just wanted to be clear that the actual DASR Marines weren't E1-E3 because that really didn't gel with the math. I know a lot of these T/O's are kind of "best case scenario" but I just had to ask to be sure.

One good thing supposedly is that the Army and NSW gave praise to how Det 1's support team was set up. I had a chance encounter with someone who was under consideration for Det. 1 as a support MOS, and I remember he shot a perfect or damn near a perfect on the range. I think he said his prior experience as an 0311 was part of the reason he was in the running for that job. I wanted to pick his brain but he qualed early and left that afternoon...

If you're directly supporting the DASR element, you and the carpenter, the baker and the candlestick maker are all getting extra training correct? I think that's one of the continuation to MSOSG that other elements of SOCOM are praising.

rheinmark187
04-17-09, 05:13 PM
Respectfully, I disagree SSgt.

If you're a 5.0/5.0 Lcpl team Leader (already above your pay-grade) you're showing that you've maxed out on the knowledge and ability you should have at your current level. If you are moved to a squad leader billet there are not proficiency marks to reflect that you showed competence, not only in your position but, two positions above you.

Let's say a Corporal was kicking butt in a billet meant for SNCO's and above. Would you say that he's merely 100% proficient in his position? No way, this kid is doing things that the Marine Corps says you need at least two enlistments to learn how to do. (assuming the average Sgt is in his second enlistment when he picks up SSgt). He's 120% proficient.

Same goes for that young Lance Coolie serving as a squad leader, one of the most difficult jobs in the Marine Corps.

So this young Marine is working above his proficiency yet there is no way to reflect that. There's no way to say 120% proficient in a proficiency mark.



There really should be extra points clearly set aside for people working "above pay grade."
Just like you get education points.

There's also situations where people aren't getting their Pro/Cons done because their just "out of the office" so much. That happened to me and a Marine I worked with and we didn't realize it until we compared other people's SRB's with our own. Granted we had to be pretty clueless not to ask "hey why am I not being counseled like we're supposed to" but when no one else around you is getting promoted, it might not be so obvious.

What I'm pointing at is there are situations where people are deployed quite a bit, working out of MOS or attached to another Unit, and I'm betting there are a lot of Junior Marines who's Pro/Con's aren't current or their Rifle Score or PFT isn't current.

I know that at one point I took the PFT 23 times in a 8 month span for 4 different units and only the first one ran, as per Marine Corps regulations. Now it wasn't a huge problem as the 1st score was only about 7 points below the highest, but was if it was an outlier where the score was like 238. I think that will really annoy a lot of people who are trying for MARSOC or Force Recon and they're sitting before a board with less than impressive numbers. It could be the difference between getting a "nice try, but come back in 6 months" and getting orders to Selection.

Accord
04-17-09, 11:31 PM
was it a 7.62 x 39???
I don't know. I've got the hollowed out round around my neck, it's too badly deformed to be able to tell.

Petz
04-18-09, 12:58 AM
Respectfully, I disagree SSgt.

If you're a 5.0/5.0 Lcpl team Leader (already above your pay-grade) you're showing that you've maxed out on the knowledge and ability you should have at your current level. If you are moved to a squad leader billet there are not proficiency marks to reflect that you showed competence, not only in your position but, two positions above you.

Let's say a Corporal was kicking butt in a billet meant for SNCO's and above. Would you say that he's merely 100% proficient in his position? No way, this kid is doing things that the Marine Corps says you need at least two enlistments to learn how to do. (assuming the average Sgt is in his second enlistment when he picks up SSgt). He's 120% proficient.

Same goes for that young Lance Coolie serving as a squad leader, one of the most difficult jobs in the Marine Corps.

So this young Marine is working above his proficiency yet there is no way to reflect that. There's no way to say 120% proficient in a proficiency mark.

you must not have read the IRAM... there is no such thing as a 5.0/5.0 Marine... and a NAM is used for those who are stellar in billets 2 pay-grades above their own...

so this Marine should be 4.7/4.7 min... max 4.9/4.9... but if his commands screws him, it's his fault for letting them... you're allowed to make statements when your pro/cons get submitted on why you feel you deserve higher than was given.

as for being a squad leader... that's one pay-grade above as it is a Cpl-Sgt billet, not a Sgt-SSgt billet... if he was the Plt Sgt then yes I would feel he rates a NAM.

you have to keep in mind that a LCpl may be on his second enlistment and/or have more knowledge/higher GT score than others around them... so they may be put into a certain billet because they are less handi-capable than the others.


so to sum it up... that 5.0/5.0 team leader is screwing up the whole pro/con system for all the other LCpls out there... as the bar is set so high, the cutting score will be as well... so those "stellar" Marines don't shine so bright. Not their fault as the CO signs off on it...

Alisium
04-18-09, 06:20 AM
I just re-read the IRAM and this is the only thing I could find regarding assigning proficiency marks.



4.9 -5.0

Outstanding

Does superior work in all duties. Even
extremely difficult or unusual assignments
can be given with full confidence that they
will be handled in a thoroughly competent manner.

I'm sure there is something I'm missing. It's over 250 pages. Would you please point me in the right direction?

In any event, I would agree with you. I have worked under the premise that no one gets a 5.0. The example was just an attempt to showcase the point that the Marine has mastered the skills required of him as he fills billets competently above where he should be according to his rank.

And the only thing I can see that addresses non-matching billet issues is per paragraph 4007.7a that states, " Due allowance should be made when a Marine is filling a billet inconsistent with the Marine's grade. " . Which I interpret as, "Hey if he's holding a billet higher than he should be, cut the Marine some slack."

Again, further guidance on this subject would be greatly appreciated.

As far as NAMs go, they're great, but they're not really good compensation for an ongoing situation.

I think we can also agree that the way pro/cons are assigned varies with each unit. Let's say a Lcpl in 1/4 is serving as the first squad leader is doing a great job and receives a 4.8, and another Lcpl, up the road in 1/5, is a kick-butt team leader also assigned a 4.8. According to the Marine Corps when it's figuring the cutting scores, both Marines are equal when, in fact, they are not. How do you then undo the imbalance?

Obviously pro/cons aren't everything and promotion for each Marine should be very competitive to ensure quality. And units are rife with Marines serving in billets above their pay-grade.

Yet, there should be a way, other than a NAM, to recognize the ongoing work of a Marine who must, consistently and over time, perform at levels not expected of his peers. Because, in so doing, he is no longer their peer.


Just my Mr. Civilian and former junior NCO opinion. Please don't castigate me too harshly.

:)

SF SSgt.

AlwaysWillBe
04-18-09, 08:13 AM
SSGT... Might an older Marine ask a question??
When I was in, 66-70, Pro / Con markes topped out at 4.0 /4.0 as I recall.
When did they start going higher? Again, as I recall, they were based on college grades, where top end is also 4.0. Just wondering when the change took place.
Please understand, it has been many many years since I delved deep into the moves and shakes of the Corps. I'm trying to understand all the changes.
Thank You.

Petz
04-18-09, 10:09 AM
There really should be extra points clearly set aside for people working "above pay grade."
Just like you get education points.

There's also situations where people aren't getting their Pro/Cons done because their just "out of the office" so much. That happened to me and a Marine I worked with and we didn't realize it until we compared other people's SRB's with our own. Granted we had to be pretty clueless not to ask "hey why am I not being counseled like we're supposed to" but when no one else around you is getting promoted, it might not be so obvious.

What I'm pointing at is there are situations where people are deployed quite a bit, working out of MOS or attached to another Unit, and I'm betting there are a lot of Junior Marines who's Pro/Con's aren't current or their Rifle Score or PFT isn't current.

I know that at one point I took the PFT 23 times in a 8 month span for 4 different units and only the first one ran, as per Marine Corps regulations. Now it wasn't a huge problem as the 1st score was only about 7 points below the highest, but was if it was an outlier where the score was like 238. I think that will really annoy a lot of people who are trying for MARSOC or Force Recon and they're sitting before a board with less than impressive numbers. It could be the difference between getting a "nice try, but come back in 6 months" and getting orders to Selection.


it's the individual Marines responsibility to get their Pro/Con marks done... non-NCOs get them quarterly while NCO are 6 months.

Petz
04-18-09, 10:21 AM
I just re-read the IRAM and this is the only thing I could find regarding assigning proficiency marks.



I'm sure there is something I'm missing. It's over 250 pages. Would you please point me in the right direction?

In any event, I would agree with you. I have worked under the premise that no one gets a 5.0. The example was just an attempt to showcase the point that the Marine has mastered the skills required of him as he fills billets competently above where he should be according to his rank.

And the only thing I can see that addresses non-matching billet issues is per paragraph 4007.7a that states, " Due allowance should be made when a Marine is filling a billet inconsistent with the Marine's grade. " . Which I interpret as, "Hey if he's holding a billet higher than he should be, cut the Marine some slack."

Again, further guidance on this subject would be greatly appreciated.

As far as NAMs go, they're great, but they're not really good compensation for an ongoing situation.

I think we can also agree that the way pro/cons are assigned varies with each unit. Let's say a Lcpl in 1/4 is serving as the first squad leader is doing a great job and receives a 4.8, and another Lcpl, up the road in 1/5, is a kick-butt team leader also assigned a 4.8. According to the Marine Corps when it's figuring the cutting scores, both Marines are equal when, in fact, they are not. How do you then undo the imbalance?

Obviously pro/cons aren't everything and promotion for each Marine should be very competitive to ensure quality. And units are rife with Marines serving in billets above their pay-grade.

Yet, there should be a way, other than a NAM, to recognize the ongoing work of a Marine who must, consistently and over time, perform at levels not expected of his peers. Because, in so doing, he is no longer their peer.


Just my Mr. Civilian and former junior NCO opinion. Please don't castigate me too harshly.

:)

SF SSgt.

first, you think that the standard 4.0/4.0 Marine (every marine who is average) is a below average mark... which it is not.

Marines who assign anything over a 4.4/4.4 for Marines who have MCIs done and good PFT/RR scores should keep in mind that if they have to tell them to do anything at all... they are giving pumped up pro/cons that hurt other junior Marines.

a Marine who is does not need guidance can be considered a 4.9 proficiency Marine... however, there conduct is generally not that high.

so when it says that marines holding billets above pay grade..... they should be getting those higher pro/cons, not every swinging dick who does a good job.

it's screwed up because NCOs think they are helping their Marine to get promoted, when they should be helping them get a 300 PFT and an expert on the range while completing their MCIs...

keep in mind that Sgts deal with the same thing for their fitreps.... it's not uncommon for a Sgt to get a better fitrep 'cause they are in a higher billet... but there are checks and balances that prevent a fitrep from getting inflated marks.

I may have gone on a tangent here and possibly not answered your question. If not it's probably 'cause I just woke up.

Petz
04-18-09, 10:23 AM
SSGT... Might an older Marine ask a question??
When I was in, 66-70, Pro / Con markes topped out at 4.0 /4.0 as I recall.
When did they start going higher? Again, as I recall, they were based on college grades, where top end is also 4.0. Just wondering when the change took place.
Please understand, it has been many many years since I delved deep into the moves and shakes of the Corps. I'm trying to understand all the changes.
Thank You.


I don't know when this happened... but it's set up in such a way that each full point has specific reasons for them to have them... you can't give a Marine below 4.0/4.0 unless they got one NJP... below 3.0/3.0 unless they got 2 NJPs... 2.0/2.0 unless they were sent to the brig...

AlwaysWillBe
04-18-09, 11:29 AM
I don't know when this happened... but it's set up in such a way that each full point has specific reasons for them to have them... you can't give a Marine below 4.0/4.0 unless they got one NJP... below 3.0/3.0 unless they got 2 NJPs... 2.0/2.0 unless they were sent to the brig...

Hmmm... interesting.
4.0 /4.0 was "perfect" when I was in.
Very few ever got that..with I do think one exception.
This might seem a bit strange, but hang in with me...I was there....

If you were assigned to HMX-1 AND if you managed to get the clearance need to work on "White Tops", weeeellll it kind of went this way....

I checked in Feb 2 of 69 upon return from VN. Now I still had just about 20 months left on a 4 year hitch. Seemed if you had less than 18 months, you didn't get assigned to that squadron (unless you indicated early on you were going to ship over). See, it took about 6 months +/- just to get that security clearance...so...that leaves just 12 months and while the basic chopper was the same, WT's had "differances"....
I had made E-4 in 14 months, and then I chased my, what was then called "cutting score" for promotion to E-5 for over 18 months..I just didn't have enough TIS.

Then the clearance came through.... that was about July of 1969. Seems that my P/C marks had been 4.0 / 4.0 since I had checked in!! And in 4 years in the Corps, I can never remember even once, seeing them, signing for them or discussing them with anyone...maybe I did, just don't remember.

So...here I am with this clearance, "perfect" Pro / Con marks and assigned to "the cage" to work on WT's...but I'm only an E-4...can't have that. No E-4 worked on WT's, that was for sure...and in Sept all of a sudden, there my name was on the promotion list to E-5.
And even stranger, I wasn't the only one! I can't think of ANY GUY IN THE SHOP that worked on WT's that was less than an E-5 and had "perfect" pro / con marks... funny how this work, isn't it.

I have filed a form 180 and asked for my entire record. Gonna be interesting so see if any of this is in it.

:flag:

MARSOCmarine03
05-10-09, 09:10 PM
I think it is amazing that so many people like to think they know what they are talking about when it comes to MARSOC. Just because they read it in a paper or a magazine, maybe they know someone who knows someone in MARSOC....First of all MARSOC is not something like MSG. Nothing could be further from the truth. The only reason HQ Marine Corps and Man Power don't want to give us are our own MOS, is they have this wild idea that when we come back to the FMF we will offer a great contribution to our new units. In theory and on paper that may sound great but in reality what we do in MARSOC has nothing to do with conventional forces. We conduct completely different missions and operate in small teams. The closes thing in the FMF or Victor units to us would be a STA Platoon (AKA Sniper Platoon) and even that is still far off. The main reason for them to keep MARSOC an open loop system is they wont loose 2,500 marines to SOCOM and never be herd from again. Just to let you all know the Marine Corps was forced into SOCOM by Donald Rumsfeld in 2005, we didn't go willingly. Just like Snipers and Recon who had to fight for years for their own MOS, we will too..

R/S

Petz
05-12-09, 09:01 PM
who said it was like MSG? this is an old thread so....


and I think MARSOC (if I recall correctly) was some generals baby, not something that was forced...

as for what you all do, it's been reported on, you do SOCOM missions that is totally interdependant of the USMC and has nothing to do with your MOS.

if it was said to be like MSG then it was intended to be something along the lines OF MSG where the MOS is a secondary one, and it's not intended to be a primary job, where you can do it once as a re enlistment then again as a senior SNCO (12 years in) just like you can on any 8000 MOS duty.

you should understand that this thread started off as a ***** session about how MARSOC Marines are getting shafted instead of treated like the gods grunts think they are.... just because they choose to no re enlist and get put on a back burner just like all terminal Marines.

chill out Sgt.

Semper Fi

PaidinBlood
05-12-09, 09:03 PM
back with a vengeance....:D SF

MARSOCmarine03
05-12-09, 11:13 PM
Well, you might think it was some Generals baby, but the fact is, it was not. The former SecDef Mr. Donald Rumsfeld brought the Joint Chiefs of Staff together to discuss the current Op tempo for SOCOM. At that time the US Army SOC was over worked with juggling the deployment in support of the OIF and OEF Special Operations requirements, as well as the current SOCOM missions. At first the Marine Corps offered to stand up a more robust MTT to train partner nation forces to take some weight off of the Army's ODA Teams (Operation Detachment Alpha). But that idea was shortly turned down when the SecDef basically told the Marine Corps it was time for us to get on board with SOCOM because we were the only branch not involved in SOCOM. Also not everything we do is reported on, so don't act like you know everything about us, you only see and hear what is released.
I am by trade an 0351 (Assaultman) within my team I still continue to focus on demolitions and anti-armor along with many other things.
If anyone is interested, MARSOC is opening it's doors to all MOS's. So if you think you have what it takes or want a challenge, come try out. If you need guidance or any information let me know..
I'll chill out when Hell freezes over or when I stop getting lifed out over the internet by someone who has been in the Corps as long as me lol.

PaidinBlood
05-12-09, 11:38 PM
I'll chill out when Hell freezes over or when I stop getting lifed out over the internet by someone who has been in the Corps as long as me lol.

http://www.myprofilesupport.com/images/uploads/1586224daaamn.jpg

Petz
05-13-09, 05:54 AM
Well, you might think it was some Generals baby, but the fact is, it was not. The former SecDef Mr. Donald Rumsfeld brought the Joint Chiefs of Staff together to discuss the current Op tempo for SOCOM. At that time the US Army SOC was over worked with juggling the deployment in support of the OIF and OEF Special Operations requirements, as well as the current SOCOM missions. At first the Marine Corps offered to stand up a more robust MTT to train partner nation forces to take some weight off of the Army's ODA Teams (Operation Detachment Alpha). But that idea was shortly turned down when the SecDef basically told the Marine Corps it was time for us to get on board with SOCOM because we were the only branch not involved in SOCOM. Also not everything we do is reported on, so don't act like you know everything about us, you only see and hear what is released.
I am by trade an 0351 (Assaultman) within my team I still continue to focus on demolitions and anti-armor along with many other things.
If anyone is interested, MARSOC is opening it's doors to all MOS's. So if you think you have what it takes or want a challenge, come try out. If you need guidance or any information let me know..
I'll chill out when Hell freezes over or when I stop getting lifed out over the internet by someone who has been in the Corps as long as me lol.


holly fvck ditto!!!! I can't believe it you!

we were in the same fvcking plt in boot camp! SSgt Raynor, Sgt Wright, Sgt Andrews...

wow, I think I saw you at medical on pendleton after 03... had a hit to the head??

what's up man?

go look at your grad photos if you don't remember.


for the record.... they do publish a lot of info on this stuff...

http://www.marsoc.usmc.mil/questions-responses.html

and to get some info that really isn't important to the existance of MARSOC wrong doesn't bother me, you just make me want to do more research so I have one more "solid" fact... opposed to word of mouth from duty experts.

http://www.marsoc.usmc.mil/images/Gen%20Robeson.jpg
-- Commander, MARSOC

and this is the reason why Marines aren't supposed to smile in photos.


Semper Fi Ditto!!!