View Full Version : Question about seniority
I was talking today with my Marines today and the topic of seniority came up. I was asked some questions that I did not know the answer to. Some of them are convinced that there is such thing as a senior LCpl and some are positive that there is no such thing. Some of them were saying that seniority does not matter until you get your first service stripe. The example this person gave was a Sgt that just picked up and has been in for 5 years outranks a Sgt that has picked up 6 months earlier but has only been in for 3 years. Is there any orders or anything to back this stuff up or is it assumed? Someone point me in the right direction so I can inform my Marines of the truth.
echo3oscar1833
03-23-09, 11:38 PM
I was talking today with my Marines today and the topic of seniority came up. I was asked some questions that I did not know the answer to. Some of them are convinced that there is such thing as a senior LCpl and some are positive that there is no such thing. Some of them were saying that seniority does not matter until you get your first service stripe. The example this person gave was a Sgt that just picked up and has been in for 5 years outranks a Sgt that has picked up 6 months earlier but has only been in for 3 years. Is there any orders or anything to back this stuff up or is it assumed? Someone point me in the right direction so I can inform my Marines of the truth.
There is no real order that I am aware of that says one Sgt out ranks another. Basically what it comes down to from my experience, and what I have seen is. Billet, Experience, and Respect.
A Sgt is a Sgt, just like a Lance is a Lance. Senior LCpl is something terminal Lances tell themselves to make them not cry at night for not being a Cpl. Yes, some LCpl's get Cpl billets, but at that point its about billet and experience.
The rank is the rank, There is no E-3 & 1/2.
well billet will trump rank but there has to be something to determine who would be the senior Sgt. I was always of the belief that it was whoever got promoted first but I have heard contradicting information today. We have a MCO on everything else, why not on this :P
Alisium
03-24-09, 12:10 AM
We always put emphasis on TIG and billet.
ie
Our "senior" Lcpls once ran the platoon because we had no NCO's at all except for our Platoon Sgt. Usually a "senior" Lcpl was a Marine who was a cycle ahead, as opposed to a boot who just picked up coming out of SOI.
The Marine in that rank longer has more experience on that level and is therefore senior.
How would you treat someone that was a Corporal for say a year, then got busted down, and then promoted again. Would you treat him differently because of his previous experience as an NCO even though TIG is reset?
Alisium
03-24-09, 12:24 AM
That would depend on why he got in trouble, I guess. Our one and only NCO from the Marines our in cycle was busted for a bs hazing charge. Yet he maintained stature in the platoon. <br />
<br />
If I had a...
time in grade and time in service!
If you and other Marines are having same rank, the one with the longer time in grade will have seniority over the other, and i.e. the one one with the lonest time in grade will have most seniority over the rest.
If you all promoted to the same rank on the same day, the one with most time in service will have seniority over the rest.
For example with the billet, a Platoon Sgt. would have seniority over the Section Sgt.(Moter T. Section Sgt) eventhough the Section Sgt. have more time in grade. And the Company Gunery Sgt. will have seniority over the Section Head Gunery Sgt.
I would probably say the place to look for or or clear you thoghts is your unit TO
semperfiman
03-24-09, 02:34 AM
time in rank?
Pete0331
03-24-09, 03:16 AM
time in rank?
Another name for Time in Grade (TIG).
Ok here is a scenario that should explain:
Two 0311 fire team leaders are chosen for a work detail.
They are both Corporals.
They need to figure out who the leader of the working party is.
If one of them doesn't respectfully stand aside beforehand.
Since they both hold a similar billet and the same rank they defer to who has the longest time in grade.
If their TIG is the same they go to their time in service.
If that is the same I guess it goes down to rock, paper, scissors, PFT scores, or a grappling round.
Billet > Rank > TIG > TIS > battle to the death
PaidinBlood
03-24-09, 04:59 AM
Billet > Rank > TIG > TIS > battle to the death
Fvck Yeah :thumbup:
HurricaneRJ
03-24-09, 05:23 AM
I agree with Pete on that.
But todays grunts, are all lazy, know it all, **** talking Marines. But I guess it's the nature of the beast. When I first hit the fleet, I didn't know a damn thing about "Senior Lance Corporal/Pfc". I always asked myself why am I'm standing at parade rest to a Pfc who has been on 1 deployment? I blew it off, then got ****ed hard. As the times roll by I understand why it is this way.
Unfortunatly in my case, I'm the youngest Marine in my Squad. So when SSgt. says gimme one. I'm always the first to go. A working party *****.
Pete0331
03-24-09, 05:35 AM
I agree with Pete on that.
But todays grunts, are all lazy, know it all, **** talking Marines. But I guess it's the nature of the beast. When I first hit the fleet, I didn't know a damn thing about "Senior Lance Corporal/Pfc". I always asked myself why am I'm standing at parade rest to a Pfc who has been on 1 deployment? I blew it off, then got ****ed hard. As the times roll by I understand why it is this way.
Unfortunatly in my case, I'm the youngest Marine in my Squad. So when SSgt. says gimme one. I'm always the first to go. A working party *****.
There are "senior" Lcpl's.
Because of MOS lock out for awhile in my company there were only 6 Corporals.
It was so bad that newly promoted Lcpls, 3 months out of SOI, were fire team leaders.
I've seen Lcpls as Platoon Sergeants.
It all goes back to TIG and TIS.
Make no mistake, I am not comparing a 3 yr Lcpl to a Cpl but TIG counts for something.
HurricaneRJ
03-24-09, 06:19 AM
It was like that when I first got to the fleet. Cpl as a Platoon Sgt, LCpls as Squad Leaders and new boots team leaders. But once all the MCSF/FAST guys came and all the Sgt who got off their B-billets came. It's now a traditional setting.
I don't consider any 1 pump LCpl's as Senior LCpl's. But those that have been on 2 pumps I do.
I was pretty sure the standard was TIG then TIS but they seemed pretty convincing with their "story". He couldn't give me any reference to back it up though so I came here. Good discussion so far!
Pete0331
03-24-09, 08:09 AM
I was pretty sure the standard was TIG then TIS but they seemed pretty convincing with their "story". He couldn't give me any reference to back it up though so I came here. Good discussion so far!
BTW, your profile needs to be filled out.
avenger08
03-24-09, 09:05 AM
How would you treat someone that was a Corporal for say a year, then got busted down, and then promoted again. Would you treat him differently because of his previous experience as an NCO even though TIG is reset?
yes you would treat him differently, he would automatically be senior because of TIS instead of TIG. i would not treat a lance corporal who was busted down from corporal as i would a boot lance
look, seniority in a rank doesn't make one Marine better than another. I've seen plenty of 13 year Sgts who are idiots where as I was a 3 year Sgt kicking ass and taking names.
a 10 year difference and I was still doing what I wanted. The Sgt who's been in longer can't bust me, chew my ass or write my fit-reps so I don't listen to the guy.
he didn't hold a billet so he was just another Sgt.
now, you bring up billets, a billet is a job title which in fact holds the T/O rank of said billet. if you T/O says the Plt Sgt is a SSgt billet then the Sgt holding that job title is in fact a SSgt by billet.... if it's a Sgt-SSgt billet then the guy is his rank.
this is important to find out as you can put it in your achievements on your fit-rep only if it's considered a SSgt billet.
this also will clear up issues with other Sgts that you tell to do sh!t.
so your other Marines are simply making up policy that doesn't exist... it's asinine and you should tell them to stop it as it may undermine good discipline and order in your unit... as one Marine may not listen to another who has been given authority over the other because of "seniority" issues, and then when other junior Marines see this and not know the reasons they too will get the idea that it's ok to blow him off.
sorry about the long-ish post, but this kind of stuff has always ****ed me off.
KawiGunny
03-24-09, 09:16 AM
I agree with Pete on that.
But todays grunts, are all lazy, know it all, **** talking Marines. But I guess it's the nature of the beast. When I first hit the fleet, I didn't know a damn thing about "Senior Lance Corporal/Pfc". I always asked myself why am I'm standing at parade rest to a Pfc who has been on 1 deployment? I blew it off, then got ****ed hard. As the times roll by I understand why it is this way.
Unfortunatly in my case, I'm the youngest Marine in my Squad. So when SSgt. says gimme one. I'm always the first to go. A working party *****.
You are with 1/8 and talking sh!t about the grunts????? What is your MOS? Admin? And if they are lazy in your unit/company/platoon....whatever, Then that sounds like a leadership problem to me. I hate lazy Marines and when I had any in my platoons, You bet they were my working party b!tches. Right or wrong, it usually worked after a little counselling along with working parties. They didn't stay lazy for long. At least not when I was around.
KawiGunny
03-24-09, 09:17 AM
Another name for Time in Grade (TIG).
Ok here is a scenario that should explain:
Two 0311 fire team leaders are chosen for a work detail.
They are both Corporals.
They need to figure out who the leader of the working party is.
If one of them doesn't respectfully stand aside beforehand.
Since they both hold a similar billet and the same rank they defer to who has the longest time in grade.
If their TIG is the same they go to their time in service.
If that is the same I guess it goes down to rock, paper, scissors, PFT scores, or a grappling round.
Billet > Rank > TIG > TIS > battle to the death
:thumbup:
You are with 1/8 and talking sh!t about the grunts????? What is your MOS? Admin? And if they are lazy in your unit/company/platoon....whatever, Then that sounds like a leadership problem to me. I hate lazy Marines and when I had any in my platoons, You bet they were my working party b!tches. Right or wrong, it usually worked after a little counselling along with working parties. They didn't stay lazy for long. At least not when I was around.
so his attitude is your fault!!!! hahaha
yes you would treat him differently, he would automatically be senior because of TIS instead of TIG. i would not treat a lance corporal who was busted down from corporal as i would a boot lance
yes you would.... he's now your peer, and you have the opportunity to pick up before him now....
if a Marine gets busted down the only reason you would treat them differently would be because they are better Marines than you and just got in a bit of trouble.
Generally you don't see NCOs getting busted down too often where this is something to even worry about. and when they do get busted they tend to aim towards sh!tbird-ism 'cause it's really depressing to lose rank... seen this many times.
KawiGunny
03-24-09, 09:29 AM
yes you would treat him differently, he would automatically be senior because of TIS instead of TIG. i would not treat a lance corporal who was busted down from corporal as i would a boot lance
I treat those situations on a case by case basis. Not all retreads deserve to be ahead of those that have been doing their job and doing it good. To me, some of them needed to prove they wanted that extra responsibility again before I would put them back in that leadership role.
KawiGunny
03-24-09, 09:45 AM
I have had one Cpl that I saw get busted for BS and kept his NCO mentallity. He charged on and I put him in for a meritorious board which he won and was promoted back to Cpl. Even as a LCpl, he acted...
KawiGunny
03-24-09, 09:47 AM
so his attitude is your fault!!!! hahaha
Call it false motivation if you like.... I didn't really care. At least he/they weren't rubbing off on the junior Marines.
I still think the battle to the death is a better way to figure out seniority
KawiGunny
03-24-09, 09:49 AM
so his attitude is your fault!!!! hahaha
His attitude will change with time. RHIP
CplKJSpevak
03-24-09, 10:19 AM
I was an E-3 for 3 years, with 2 deployment's,maxed out MCI's, good cookie,and NAM before I got my score for E-4....so Sr. Lance Cooley didn't mean 5hit!!, Because I had just checked in from being TAD for 3 years,No one knew me, I was sweeping the deck one day, Running the shop,the next. YUT!
KawiGunny
03-24-09, 10:33 AM
I was an E-3 for 3 years, with 2 deployment's,maxed out MCI's, good cookie,and NAM before I got my score for E-4....so Sr. Lance Cooley didn't mean 5hit!!, Because I had just checked in from being TAD for 3 years,No one knew me, I was sweeping the deck one day, Running the shop,the next. YUT!
That seniority thing goes out the window when you checkin to a different unit. They don't know you and you haven't proved yourself yet. Some, like you, won't miss a step and move up quickly.:beer:
ggyoung
03-24-09, 10:56 AM
Gunny I was busted from Sgt. to cpl. Got my Sgt. strips back on the next go around. ( 3 months ) It made me a better NCO. Also as I have read through all of this I see one thing that has not been...
SGT7477
03-24-09, 10:57 AM
I was talking today with my Marines today and the topic of seniority came up. I was asked some questions that I did not know the answer to. Some of them are convinced that there is such thing as a senior LCpl and some are positive that there is no such thing. Some of them were saying that seniority does not matter until you get your first service stripe. The example this person gave was a Sgt that just picked up and has been in for 5 years outranks a Sgt that has picked up 6 months earlier but has only been in for 3 years. Is there any orders or anything to back this stuff up or is it assumed? Someone point me in the right direction so I can inform my Marines of the truth.
We always went by time in grade.:flag:
KawiGunny
03-24-09, 11:59 AM
Gunny I was busted from Sgt. to cpl. Got my Sgt. strips back on the next go around. ( 3 months ) It made me a better NCO. Also as I have read through all of this I see one thing that has not been said and that is go to the company Gunny. That I believe is one of his jobs. You can always trust your co. Gunny.
Congrats on keeping your head in place and earning your strips back. That speaks loud for what type of NCO you are. Good Job.
As for the company Gunny...... I think that depends on the type of unit you are in. Being in the infantry side of the house, the Co Gunny tried not to get wrapped up in platoon buisness. He is to swamped with logistical issues to worry about stuff like that. However, if asked, he definitely won't hesitate to throw his two cents in. Company Gunny's try not to get involved unless that particular platoon Sgt ask for his help or a Marine comes to him and say's he has asked his plt Sgt but he can't get an answer. It's more of a respect thing vice a "don't bother me" thing.
HurricaneRJ
03-24-09, 12:16 PM
You are with 1/8 and talking sh!t about the grunts????? What is your MOS? Admin? And if they are lazy in your unit/company/platoon....whatever, Then that sounds like a leadership problem to me. I hate lazy Marines and when I had any in my platoons, You bet they were my working party b!tches. Right or wrong, it usually worked after a little counselling along with working parties. They didn't stay lazy for long. At least not when I was around.
I'm no way lazy and Platoon Sergeants and Platoon Commanders don't live in the barracks. Back in Garrison, I had to be up at 0530 to take out m senior Marines trash, and on field days. It was I cleaning their rooms.
Don't get me started on running to a Chow Hall 2 miles away to get them a sub sandwich.
My command knows these type of things are going around, but they pay no mind. It's a Boot's life, it sucks. Hell I got 8 more months then It's done for me.
KawiGunny
03-24-09, 12:24 PM
I'm no way lazy and Platoon Sergeants and Platoon Commanders don't live in the barracks. Back in Garrison, I had to be up at 0530 to take out m senior Marines trash, and on field days. It was I cleaning their rooms.
Don't get me started on running to a Chow Hall 2 miles away to get them a sub sandwich.
My command knows these type of things are going around, but they pay no mind. It's a Boot's life, it sucks. Hell I got 8 more months then It's done for me.
It's one thing to play games with the junior (boots) Marines but it's another thing when it comes to personal servitude. They are definitely wrong. If I was to ever find out any of my NCO's were going that far, I would turn the tables on them and embarass them in front of God and country. I don't mind some of the games, traditional I guess, but there is a line we all need to stay away from. I have seen plenty of Marines in my time that crossed that line and paid the price. Not worth it in my book.
HurricaneRJ
03-24-09, 12:45 PM
Well Gunny heres how they put it.
"Well you got it way easier than I did, and it was a whole lot worse for me."
They keep saying that the Marine Corps will get soft if the unit puts a stop to it.
But I never saw how taking a Marine and beating the **** out of him makes him stronger, faster, smarter, and well capable of any job. They're trying to create this level of Master and Slave. Some boots like it that way, but I never did. I'm not the most liked Junior Marine. Only those who actually took the time to talk to me and know me get my respect and for those guys I'll bend over backwards for.
It's one thing to play games with the junior (boots) Marines but it's another thing when it comes to personal servitude. They are definitely wrong. If I was to ever find out any of my NCO's were going that far, I would turn the tables on them and embarass them in front of God and country. I don't mind some of the games, traditional I guess, but there is a line we all need to stay away from. I have seen plenty of Marines in my time that crossed that line and paid the price. Not worth it in my book.
I would agree, Gunny.
I was in the chow hall and a Lt asked me to get him some cookies from the line, I told him to get it himself.
Granted, I probably was in the wrong for talking to him that way, but I told my Sgt and SSgt and gave them the name of the Lt, just in case.
Nothing ever came up about it, the Lt probably realized he was in the wrong.
personal servitude is wrong. It wouldn't be tolerated in my platoon.
though as punishment, If one of my Marines failed field day they'd be doing general clean-up of all the other Marines rooms until they learn how to clean a room. Thats called training.
as far as getting chow, I've seen it before where a Sgt asked a junior Marine to get him some food since the Marine wasn't getting anything himself.... but the Sgt paid the devil dog.... regardless whether it was an order or not the Junior Marine got paid... that's getting overtime.
as has been said before there are things that are traditional and then there are things that are abusive and belittling. I want you to understand the whole Corps is not like this, and you should consider a lat move, you'd probably pick up as soon as you finish the MOS school, and then you'd arrive to your new unit as an NCO.
give it a thought.
BigPhil
03-24-09, 01:12 PM
When I was in TIG was the main thing, you reported to a outfit the first thing you asked was date of rank. I had a Sgt. that had got his rank about the time i enlisted I made SSgt. and he was passed over. but he showed his respect for my rank.
KawiGunny
03-24-09, 01:12 PM
Well Gunny heres how they put it.
"Well you got it way easier than I did, and it was a whole lot worse for me."
They keep saying that the Marine Corps will get soft if the unit puts a stop to it.
But I never saw how taking a Marine and beating the **** out of him makes him stronger, faster, smarter, and well capable of any job. They're trying to create this level of Master and Slave. Some boots like it that way, but I never did. I'm not the most liked Junior Marine. Only those who actually took the time to talk to me and know me get my respect and for those guys I'll bend over backwards for.
He!!... I can say it was harder for me than it was for them. And there are some Marines in here that can say the same thing to me. Wrong is still wrong.
Keep your head up killer.....things will get better. Like the SSgt mentioned, maybe consider a latmove or even a transfer as soon as you have enough time on station.
gunny, if he's got 8 month left, I think that qualifies... but he'll need to reenlist before they entertain the idea.
Gunny is definitely right about this "I had it harder" crap.... and that definition of harder is based on their perception. they could be idiots for all we know.
SGT7477
03-24-09, 01:36 PM
I would agree, Gunny.
I was in the chow hall and a Lt asked me to get him some cookies from the line, I told him to get it himself.
Granted, I probably was in the wrong for talking to him that way, but I told my Sgt and SSgt and gave them the name of the Lt, just in case.
Nothing ever came up about it, the Lt probably realized he was in the wrong.
He was just trying to pull rank on you.:flag:
KawiGunny
03-24-09, 01:40 PM
He was just trying to pull rank on you.:flag:
Either that or his "sweet tooth" was acting up that day.:D
SGT7477
03-24-09, 01:42 PM
Either that or his "sweet tooth" was acting up that day.:D
Very true Gunny.:D
When it comes down to "battle for the death", it's time for you to get out of the M.C. At some point in time you will lead and at some point in time you will follow during the course of your M.C. career. And nothing wrong with being a follower and a good follower.
The 5 units I have been with, all went by TIG and TIS. I rarely saw NCO and NCO were headon each other over seniority and especially Sgts, and we were tended to back each other up somehow. Platoon Sgt. normally carried out the tasks from SNCO and passed them on to the platoon and he would say final words, "NCOs make sure it happened!" My initially thought grunt units are more tighter and cohesive, but I gues they are not.
KawiGunny
03-24-09, 02:48 PM
My initially thought grunt units are more tighter and cohesive, but I gues they are not.
They are. But as this situation shows, this type of trash happens everywhere. Some units find out about it and squash it while others simply turn and look the other way.
When it comes down to "battle for the death", it's time for you to get out of the M.C. .
I just want to see Gladiator in real life:D
SlingerDun
03-24-09, 03:39 PM
Two L/Cpl's in a squad. One recieves L/Cpl meritoriously in SOI for directing an accurate fire mission while the General and his boyz happened to be observing on a hill, through field glasses, with cigars and lattes...
The other has been in the fleet over 2 years a L/Cpl for 1 year and a fire team leader 7 months, occasional squad leader....
If one of those kids aint senior something is terribly eff'ed up back in the office.
It sounds to me there is not enough NCO in the grunt MOS/unit. or lacking of NCO leadership.
mcvet57103
03-24-09, 04:10 PM
I'm no way lazy and Platoon Sergeants and Platoon Commanders don't live in the barracks. Back in Garrison, I had to be up at 0530 to take out m senior Marines trash, and on field days. It was I cleaning their rooms.
Don't get me started on running to a Chow Hall 2 miles away to get them a sub sandwich.
My command knows these type of things are going around, but they pay no mind. It's a Boot's life, it sucks. Hell I got 8 more months then It's done for me.If it's servitude then you need to request Mast with your CO. Do not discuss it with your squad leader, platoon leader, or anyone else. You only have to discuss it with the one you request to talk to about it. If the CO refuses to address the situation, you need to go higher. If they try to silence you, write, e-mail, or call your Congressman. It works, believe me, I did it. Eventually you will get satisfaction if you are in the right, and you document what is going down. When I was a PFC, I cost a SSgt a promotion to Gunny because of BS he was pulling behind the COs back.
Alisium
03-24-09, 04:12 PM
TO: TTX
Infantry units can become pretty junior at the end of a cycle. Every two years or so, the majority of NCO's get out or move on and you're left with a bunch of senior Lcpls and a small hand full of NCOs.
That's what happened to us. Then, all of a sudden, I was promoted in a mass 30+ man promotion a few months later.
commdog7
03-24-09, 04:33 PM
Another name for Time in Grade (TIG).
Ok here is a scenario that should explain:
Two 0311 fire team leaders are chosen for a work detail.
They are both Corporals.
They need to figure out who the leader of the working party is.
If one of them doesn't respectfully stand aside beforehand.
Since they both hold a similar billet and the same rank they defer to who has the longest time in grade.
If their TIG is the same they go to their time in service.
If that is the same I guess it goes down to rock, paper, scissors, PFT scores, or a grappling round.
Billet > Rank > TIG > TIS > battle to the death
If their Rank/TIG/TIS is the same, from what I have been told, it goes based on their last name- alphabetical order. If one is Jones and the other is Smith, then Jones would be senior because J comes before S.
TO: TTX
Infantry units can become pretty junior at the end of a cycle. Every two years or so, the majority of NCO's get out or move on and you're left with a bunch of senior Lcpls and a small hand full of NCOs.
That's what happened to us. Then, all of a sudden, I was promoted in a mass 30+ man promotion a few months later.
Now, I see!
If their Rank/TIG/TIS is the same, from what I have been told, it goes based on their last name- alphabetical order. If one is Jones and the other is Smith, then Jones would be senior because J comes before S.
I never heard of last name-alpha order, but may be when Doc called you for P$SS test.
Old Marine
03-24-09, 05:03 PM
The answer to the question is: TIME IN GRADE.
It does not matter what the MOS is its still TIME IN GRADE.
Always has been and always will be.
ggyoung
03-24-09, 06:26 PM
When I picked up Cpl. at 29 Palms I had about 2 and one half years in the Corps. Right after that I was put in as the section chief of gun 2. Which was also base peace. This was a M-55 SP howitzer. This is a E-6 job. By the way my gunner at that time was a L/Cpl. which should be a E-5 job. I think I learned more from him than he did from me.
Pete0331
03-24-09, 06:33 PM
TO: TTX
Infantry units can become pretty junior at the end of a cycle. Every two years or so, the majority of NCO's get out or move on and you're left with a bunch of senior Lcpls and a small hand full of NCOs.
That's what happened to us. Then, all of a sudden, I was promoted in a mass 30+ man promotion a few months later.
Yes, this is what would happen in my unit as well.
If their Rank/TIG/TIS is the same, from what I have been told, it goes based on their last name- alphabetical order. If one is Jones and the other is Smith, then Jones would be senior because J comes before S.
That is completely ridiculous.
I've never seen to go that far.
By then one of the Marines usually steps aside respectfully.
Not because they don't want to be a leader, but it usually isn't productive to argue about who has been in the Corps longer.
Assaultdog0351
03-24-09, 07:03 PM
The Marines that say there is no such thing as a senior Lance Corporal, are usually the same Marines that say theres no such thing as field cammies. You can come out of boot camp as a lance, and to think for one fraction of a second that Lance Corporal falls in the same bracket of a Lance Corporal that has been on 3, or 2, or even 1 deployment is ridiculous. Yes there are those Marines that just don't grasp the Marine concept and never really fall in that "bracket" of greater experience, but goto any other job in the world and your the FNG until you prove yourself capable... even at taco bell
Assaultdog0351
03-24-09, 07:17 PM
usually its a concoction of experience, knowledge, time in service, common sense, fitness, and the ability to accomplish tasks.... as far as the whole alphabet thing, if the Corps needs 20 0351's to pick up(NCO), they go 20 down the list from highest to lowest composite score. If the ''cutting score'' is 1775 and both, Marine''A'' and Marine ''B'' have a composite score of 1775, Marine ''A'' will be on the list before Marine ''B''
SGT7477
03-24-09, 07:22 PM
When I picked up Cpl. at 29 Palms I had about 2 and one half years in the Corps. Right after that I was put in as the section chief of gun 2. Which was also base peace. This was a M-55 SP howitzer. This is a E-6 job. By the way my gunner at that time was a L/Cpl. which should be a E-5 job. I think I learned more from him than he did from me.
Been there done that, we Gun Bunnies were always short handed as far as rank goes.:flag:
I took care of this today when explained to my marines the whole TIG/TIS seniority. I also told them to stop spreading rumors they hear or make up themselves. Good discussion though. Always good stories when Marines are involved!
Assaultdog0351
03-24-09, 07:48 PM
If it's servitude then you need to request Mast with your CO. Do not discuss it with your squad leader, platoon leader, or anyone else. You only have to discuss it with the one you request to talk to about it. If the CO refuses to address the situation, you need to go higher. If they try to silence you, write, e-mail, or call your Congressman. It works, believe me, I did it. Eventually you will get satisfaction if you are in the right, and you document what is going down. When I was a PFC, I cost a SSgt a promotion to Gunny because of BS he was pulling behind the COs back.
Usually when ''new joins'' first get to their units whoever runs morning police call and assigns your every day tasks (team leader, squad leader, section leader, plt sgt) will push you a little harder to see your weakness so they know what you need improvement on. alot of the time when they find this weekness they push it over and over and over again until either you snap like flimsy twig or you learn to cope with it. the ones(new joins) with less discrepencies get punished for your weakness as well this is to test their initiative to be leaders. if being a leader makes them weaker, it will show, but when the weak surpass their weakness and become leaders that will show even more.... Marines shouldn't take hardships personally unless someone is trying to put cheetos in their ass or **** on them or some crazy stuff like that. sounds kinda out there but its a small portion of a theory i came up with while i sat in the brig for hazing individuals, whom, have been surpassing their peers since. they were even on the same meritorious boards as me
Pete0331
03-24-09, 08:12 PM
Usually when ''new joins'' first get to their units whoever runs morning police call and assigns your every day tasks (team leader, squad leader, section leader, plt sgt) will push you a little harder to see your weakness so they know what you need improvement on. alot of the time when they find this weekness they push it over and over and over again until either you snap like flimsy twig or you learn to cope with it. the ones(new joins) with less discrepencies get punished for your weakness as well this is to test their initiative to be leaders. if being a leader makes them weaker, it will show, but when the weak surpass their weakness and become leaders that will show even more.... Marines shouldn't take hardships personally unless someone is trying to put cheetos in their ass or **** on them or some crazy stuff like that. sounds kinda out there but its a small portion of a theory i came up with while i sat in the brig for hazing individuals, whom, have been surpassing their peers since. they were even on the same meritorious boards as me
Hazing and personal servitude are completely different.
Hazing can be used as a disciplining tool or as a right of passage when not taken to far.
Some young Marines call hazing far to often.
Personal servitude is unacceptable in any form.
If your team leader asks you to go fill his canteens because he is writing a frag order, in a meeting, checking comm freqs, or in any way busy with tasks nessesary to the operational capability of the unit it is not personal servitude.
If he asks you to fill his canteens because it's hot out and he doesn't want to get up it is personal servitude.
Sometimes it is better to deal with it then to take it to higher.
If it gets excessive, however, names need to be dropped.
There is a point when jerking Marines around needs to stop.
mcvet57103
03-24-09, 08:38 PM
Hazing and personal servitude are completely different.
Hazing can be used as a disciplining tool or as a right of passage when not taken to far.
Some young Marines call hazing far to often.
Personal servitude is unacceptable in any form.
Sometimes it is better to deal with it then to take it to higher.
If it gets excessive, however, names need to be dropped.
There is a point when jerking Marines around needs to stop.That was my point exactly. I was constantly hounded and harrassed by one particular SSgt who took a dislike to me. No one else in the company had a problem with me. I put up with the crap for half my tour on Oki, till I finally had enough. When I requested Mast the SSgt made me cut grass on the side of a steep hill, with a sling blade, in the hot sun all day with only 5 minute breaks every 30 minutes. Because I refused to tell him why I wanted to talk to the CO. If you've been on Oki in the summer you know how friggin hot and sticky it gets. I stuck to my guns, and stayed squared away, because a Sgt in my platoon took me asside one day and told me not to give in. In the end I was a big shot in the company because I didn't back down, and the SSgt lost his promotion, and got transfered. He thought because I was a boot PFC he could take advantage of my inexperience. But he found out even PFCs can read the UCMJ. Mast is there for a reason. No one should be afraid to stand up to bullies even when they outrank you. As long as you know you did nothing wrong, you have protection. SF
commdog7
03-24-09, 08:40 PM
Rah!
HurricaneRJ
03-24-09, 09:53 PM
Usually when ''new joins'' first get to their units whoever runs morning police call and assigns your every day tasks (team leader, squad leader, section leader, plt sgt) will push you a little harder to see your weakness so they know what you need improvement on. alot of the time when they find this weekness they push it over and over and over again until either you snap like flimsy twig or you learn to cope with it. the ones(new joins) with less discrepencies get punished for your weakness as well this is to test their initiative to be leaders. if being a leader makes them weaker, it will show, but when the weak surpass their weakness and become leaders that will show even more.... Marines shouldn't take hardships personally unless someone is trying to put cheetos in their ass or **** on them or some crazy stuff like that. sounds kinda out there but its a small portion of a theory i came up with while i sat in the brig for hazing individuals, whom, have been surpassing their peers since. they were even on the same meritorious boards as me
It's funny you mention sticking a cheeto up someone ass. That happened in 1/8 a couple generations ago. I was even told back in 05' a Marine got stabbed by a senior Marine over a ham sandwich.
Now my first deployment is over in 7 months, and I'll stop getting ****ed with but I never minded going into a room and have a good knowledge bowl. Every question that was wrong, you did an exercise and if you got it right you were lucky. I loved that game, if you don't get smarter, then your going to get stronger. I'm still the knowledge bowl champ. That is what I call DGT.
But when I first got into the fleet, and taken to a room and got belittled, made to stand at parade rest. and was slapped, punched, kicked, and I had bruises all over my body. What did that accomplish?? Nothing, only got a Cpl. demoted to a LCpl. and two Marines some brig time. All because a ****bag senior Marine(The guy has Marine Core tattoed on his arms) got ****ed I beat him in the Mk. 19 Dis & Ass. :thumbdown
I agree with most of your opinions on the hazing issue. Hazing is a word that gets thrown out a lot by Jr Marines these days. If only some of them knew what real hazing was.
Alisium
03-24-09, 10:44 PM
That was my point exactly. I was constantly hounded and harrassed by one particular SSgt who took a dislike to me. No one else in the company had a problem with me. I put up with the crap for half my tour on Oki, till I finally had enough. When I requested Mast the SSgt made me cut grass on the side of a steep hill, with a sling blade, in the hot sun all day with only 5 minute breaks every 30 minutes. Because I refused to tell him why I wanted to talk to the CO. If you've been on Oki in the summer you know how friggin hot and sticky it gets. I stuck to my guns, and stayed squared away, because a Sgt in my platoon took me asside one day and told me not to give in. In the end I was a big shot in the company because I didn't back down, and the SSgt lost his promotion, and got transfered. He thought because I was a boot PFC he could take advantage of my inexperience. But he found out even PFCs can read the UCMJ. Mast is there for a reason. No one should be afraid to stand up to bullies even when they outrank you. As long as you know you did nothing wrong, you have protection. SF
I think most of us have one of those and it usually turns out that way. Mine ended up getting in trouble for drowning a recruit a few years back in San Diego.
DocGreek
03-24-09, 11:16 PM
GENTLEMEN....THIS CRAP HAPPENS TO DOC"S, TOO!!! When I got to Field Med School, I was an e-4, and our Drill SGT. picked me out, to pick on, to show the other DOC'S, what The Corps, was really like. PICKED THE WRONG SQUID!! I had anger issues, even back then. The SGT was taller, stronger, and JUST as ANGRY, as me. One afternoon, after our 3 mile romp, with packs filled with rocks.....he pushed me to the deck, and called me a puzzy. OFF WITH MY HELMET, AND PACK, AND PROCEEDED TO WHIP HIS E-5 ASS!!! LIKE STINK ON SH!T! Told him to cry "UNCLE", or I'd KILL HIM!!! "UNCLE, UNCLE, UNCLE", IS ALL I HEARD! I got a swollen shut black eye, a broken "BIG-ASS GREEK NOSE", and BUSTED TO E-3!!! I liked to fight, and when I was standing tall, in front a Marine Major, TOLD HIM THE TRUTH!! When he asked if I'd take a punch, at him.....told him if he personally, or physically attacked me..."YOU GOD DAM RIGHT"!!! Whole room was laughing, and the Major took my stripe, told me that "I'll stay out of your way, DOC!!!"....Some of the best times of my life!!!!!......DOC
HurricaneRJ
03-25-09, 03:28 AM
I agree with most of your opinions on the hazing issue. Hazing is a word that gets thrown out a lot by Jr Marines these days. If only some of them knew what real hazing was.
I see where your coming from. A lot of guys throw that word out there just so they won't get ****ed up, but then there's a grown man aspect to things. If your late for formation and get yelled at, that's not hazing.
I remember getting chewed out for not giving proper greeting of the day to a LCpl. Of course I gave him some lip, and we both agreed to settle this in a mans way. Well you old Corps guys know how that rolls, and problem solved. Hell were friends now, thats how I was told the Marine Corps would be and personally how I like it.
But a lot of Sr. Marines hide behind the fact that they been on 1 deployment and everything that comes out of thier mouths is the truth.
The night I left for deployment, a TL had one of his Marines take off his shirt and yell ignorant things infront of Marines families, and the TL was drunk. Now that is what I call hazing and the sad part is that Jr. Marines know that it's wrong but they don't want to be labeled a puzzy so they do it anyway.
if I ever have a Marine say I'm hazing him, I'll give him the reason why it's not hazing...
you want to argue with me? let's go do some sustainment training together....
you want to be late? I have some work only you can accomplish over in this ditch...
you want to be a nasty turd? I need a hard worker like yourself to fill some sandbags so we use them for stuff like door stops, sign holders and to make some benches for the smoke pit...
there's always a "JOB" to be done in the Marine Corps, and the only hazing is the kind that doesn't get anything productive done.
keep that in mind Leaders... just don't have a Marine do something without a reason... don't just have him fill sandbags and let them sit there in a pile for 6 months until the bags rot apart.
don't have him dig a ditch or hole unless you are going to put something into it... like some old wood, or other biodegradable stuff.
don't knock the kids teeth out in sustainment training... while you may not be an instructor you can grapple with him, if you are an instructor grab a few other Marines to "instruct" have have your favored Marine the "demonstrator" and the constant bull in the ring... though give him a break in between sessions.
none of these are hazing. it's work and training.
if I ever have a Marine say I'm hazing him, I'll give him the reason why it's not hazing...
you want to argue with me? let's go do some sustainment training together....
you want to be late? I have some work only you can accomplish over in this ditch...
you want to be a nasty turd? I need a hard worker like yourself to fill some sandbags so we use them for stuff like door stops, sign holders and to make some benches for the smoke pit...
there's always a "JOB" to be done in the Marine Corps, and the only hazing is the kind that doesn't get anything productive done.
keep that in mind Leaders... just don't have a Marine do something without a reason... don't just have him fill sandbags and let them sit there in a pile for 6 months until the bags rot apart.
don't have him dig a ditch or hole unless you are going to put something into it... like some old wood, or other biodegradable stuff.
don't knock the kids teeth out in sustainment training... while you may not be an instructor you can grapple with him, if you are an instructor grab a few other Marines to "instruct" have have your favored Marine the "demonstrator" and the constant bull in the ring... though give him a break in between sessions.
none of these are hazing. it's work and training.
All good ideas SSgt
commdog7
03-25-09, 08:39 PM
I agree that a good way to punish Marines is to have them do something productive, but someone does need to draw a line between hazing and productive work. I have known Marines who have cleaned whole HMMWV's with only a tooth brush and a bottle of water because they were 5 minutes late for work one day. Even though it is productive (cleaning vehicles), I classify that as hazing. I know most of the old Corps Marines would disagree with me, but I can't stand hazing in my Corps. It destroys morale- I much rather have a motivated Marine working for me than one who has lost that motivation due to hazing. I am not a fan of paperwork- it can really mess up a Marine's career, but as a leader, I try to find other ways to punish Marines which wouldn't destoy their morale or career. I am all for productive work as long as it does not cross the line.
Semper Fidelis :iwo:
I agree that a good way to punish Marines is to have them do something productive, but someone does need to draw a line between hazing and productive work. I have known Marines who have cleaned whole HMMWV's with only a tooth brush and a bottle of water because they were 5 minutes late for work one day. Even though it is productive (cleaning vehicles), I classify that as hazing. I know most of the old Corps Marines would disagree with me, but I can't stand hazing in my Corps. It destroys morale- I much rather have a motivated Marine working for me than one who has lost that motivation due to hazing. I am not a fan of paperwork- it can really mess up a Marine's career, but as a leader, I try to find other ways to punish Marines which wouldn't destoy their morale or career. I am all for productive work as long as it does not cross the line.
Semper Fidelis :iwo:
what you should do is give them a wire brush and tell them to "bust" rust on the HMMWV... it's productive, and it needs to get done... it's part of a PM service. as a matter of fact, if he/she has a liscence you can always send them up to the motor pool and have them do PMs on the vehicles with only a half hour for chow... you'd obviously need to know the Line NCO or Ops Chief so they don't let them skate....
Devil Leaders, you need to think about all the things that need to get done on a daily, weekly, and monthly basis and give them a ranking on which are the most important to get done.. you'll notice the ones on the top of the list get done by every SD 5 times over, and the ones at the bottom are neglected... well you can probably see where I'm going here, just get your motivator to do the ones on the bottom of the list!
painting bay doors, digging the weeds out of cracks (they grow bigger and the pavement suffers!!!) sweep, edge the lawn so it doesn't grow over onto the pavement (doesn't look good), cigarette butt cans need empting (I never once saw who did that in 4 years at pulgas....), clean the garbage cans, label parking spaces and hatchways, paint the yellow diagnol lines in no parking sections, oil the chains and locks for your compound, wash your organizational equipment, PM your T/E, Put a training class together, audit 4-cards with your mimms clerk (they'll love you for giving them a helper... just make sure they work them and not let them skate).... I've given you so many options to choose from, so no hazing should ever happen... hope this gouge helps you young leaders.
pass it on.:iwo:
PaidinBlood
03-26-09, 07:58 AM
Devil Leaders,
http://shop.thechildhealthsite.com/store/product/image/27423.gif
Semper Fi :thumbup:
yes I did... pick up and maybe I'll call you that!
PaidinBlood
03-26-09, 10:22 PM
yes I did... pick up and maybe I'll call you that!
I would prefer you didn't. SF
echo3oscar1833
03-26-09, 11:00 PM
what you should do is give them a wire brush and tell them to "bust" rust on the HMMWV... it's productive, and it needs to get done... it's part of a PM service. as a matter of fact, if he/she has a liscence you can always send them up to the motor pool and have them do PMs on the vehicles with only a half hour for chow... you'd obviously need to know the Line NCO or Ops Chief so they don't let them skate....
Devil Leaders, you need to think about all the things that need to get done on a daily, weekly, and monthly basis and give them a ranking on which are the most important to get done.. you'll notice the ones on the top of the list get done by every SD 5 times over, and the ones at the bottom are neglected... well you can probably see where I'm going here, just get your motivator to do the ones on the bottom of the list!
painting bay doors, digging the weeds out of cracks (they grow bigger and the pavement suffers!!!) sweep, edge the lawn so it doesn't grow over onto the pavement (doesn't look good), cigarette butt cans need empting (I never once saw who did that in 4 years at pulgas....), clean the garbage cans, label parking spaces and hatchways, paint the yellow diagnol lines in no parking sections, oil the chains and locks for your compound, wash your organizational equipment, PM your T/E, Put a training class together, audit 4-cards with your mimms clerk (they'll love you for giving them a helper... just make sure they work them and not let them skate).... I've given you so many options to choose from, so no hazing should ever happen... hope this gouge helps you young leaders.
pass it on.:iwo:
SSgt you know I respect you and consider you a friend, but damn brother some people may think that unusual and cruel punishment lol :D For me I remember spending a whole day PM'ing the shi$ out of a AAV, but hell it made me a better Marine. :) Hard words but spoken true.