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View Full Version : Shooting on the range and Pulling Pits



marine3043
03-19-09, 04:02 AM
No Marine should ever unk on the range, ----ever---

For those about t ogo to boot camp dont be the one that says that the verifier was next to you the whole time,,,

Every shot is a 4 or 5 in the Marine Corp

Those that disagree are the ones that mess up the whole balance for everybody.



So when you are in Afghansitan,, you are going to prepare a loop sling and make ready???====


Pull the pits the way Marines do,,, hook each other up and stuff with this buddy fUc$er stuff.

Alisium
03-19-09, 04:52 AM
Marines go unqualified for good reasons.

thewookie
03-19-09, 06:08 AM
No Marine should ever unk on the range, ----ever---

For those about t ogo to boot camp dont be the one that says that the verifier was next to you the whole time,,,

Every shot is a 4 or 5 in the Marine Corp

Those that disagree are the ones that mess up the whole balance for everybody.



So when you are in Afghansitan,, you are going to prepare a loop sling and make ready???====


Pull the pits the way Marines do,,, hook each other up and stuff with this buddy fUc$er stuff.


I strongly disagree with you. Marines go unk because they are NSF's - non-shooting-focks

Hooking a guy up on the range does not help him in a combat situation, or in any situation.

It makes him a liability.

Once you know how to shoot, the loop sling or any type of sling has zero ability to influence the round. It is an aid, like a scope, bipods, or any other aid you find/make. The only thing I will agree with you about that point is that Marines should not use a "tight" loop sling, unless they are deep out and trying to reach out and touch someone. It is totally unrealistic, when I got out in 99, the only spot they let them use that type of sling was at the 500.

I went unk at bootcamp, twice, but I figured it out and I did all right in the long run.

And I know that when I went unk, twice, that I didn't mess up any balance, I got what I earned it that wasn't much, at first.

SSgt Ramsey
03-19-09, 06:22 AM
You shoot what you shoot....it's what it is.

"Hooking your buddy up" in this circumstance is not cool, not cool at all...say the Marine CAN'T shoot but because his buddies "hook him up" in the pits he think's he's Carlos Hathcock...then get's sent to Iraq or Afghanistan...a fire-fight breaks out....he misses wildly and get's one or more of his Marine's killed/maimed....is that right??

I realize this is a heavy-scenario, but possible...shooting on the range is one thing, the targets don't shoot back...in a controlled environment...this is not the place to instill false confidence in a Marine's psyche.

Besides, when I went to Bootcamp integrity, honesty, and honor meant something...I've only been gone since July of 07', I'm sure things haven't changed that much since I left Camp Lejeune.

DocGreek
03-19-09, 06:32 AM
HEY, MARINES!! I was at a indoor range, yesterday, with my BRAND NEW Model 29, 44 Magnum...NON-VENTED, and hit the silhouette 22, out of 24 times......with 2 BULLSEYES!!.....AND, I'm 63!!....WITH TRI-FOCALS!! TRAINING, TRAINING, TRAINING!!!!! DNQ'S, are NOT AN OPTION.....check these boot's EYES!!!.......S/F...DOC

Rocky C
03-19-09, 06:51 AM
You shoot what you shoot....it's what it is.

"Hooking your buddy up" in this circumstance is not cool, not cool at all...say the Marine CAN'T shoot but because his buddies "hook him up" in the pits he think's he's Carlos Hathcock...then get's sent to Iraq or Afghanistan...a fire-fight breaks out....he misses wildly and get's one or more of his Marine's killed/maimed....is that right??

I realize this is a heavy-scenario, but possible...shooting on the range is one thing, the targets don't shoot back...in a controlled environment...this is not the place to instill false confidence in a Marine's psyche.

Besides, when I went to Bootcamp integrity, honesty, and honor meant something...I've only been gone since July of 07', I'm sure things haven't changed that much since I left Camp Lejeune.


Well Said SSgt,
It is, what it is......

" Hooking your Buddy up ? " I don't think so.
How about finding out what the problem is and then Helping your Brother Marine fix it.
That's what I call "Hooking your Buddy up".

Semper Fi,

Rocky

BR34
03-19-09, 06:55 AM
No Marine should ever unk on the range, ----ever---

For those about t ogo to boot camp dont be the one that says that the verifier was next to you the whole time,,,

Every shot is a 4 or 5 in the Marine Corp

Those that disagree are the ones that mess up the whole balance for everybody.



So when you are in Afghansitan,, you are going to prepare a loop sling and make ready???====


Pull the pits the way Marines do,,, hook each other up and stuff with this buddy fUc$er stuff.

Well, I guess we know who just unked...

mcvet57103
03-19-09, 07:46 AM
The Marine Rifleman is the backbone of the whole Marine Corps. ALL Marines are riflemen first, and their MOS assignment second. Period. To fix a qual score so a non-qual passes, is not omly detrimental to his ability to be a marine, but it puts all other marines at risk. If a recruit can't hit a target with an assist in the form of a loop sling what makes you think he can hit a target without it? Try this scenario. A base gets attacked say in Afghanistan. An insurgent strapped with explosives is sprinting towards the Ammunition Depot. All Marines in the area are busy defending their front. Joe Schnuck from Admin has been ordered to take up his rifle and assist. He's the only one who sees this guy running. In Boot Camp and the next qualification, they fixed his score so he passed. Now all that stands between the Ammo Depot and the insurgent is Joe. Nuff said. The rifle qualification segment of boot camp is in my opinion one of the most important parts of boot camp. If you can't shoot straight, you should not be in the Marines. You should be in the Coast Guard or some such. I can't believe a Marine even suggested that a non-qual be given a pass. SF

sparkie
03-19-09, 08:03 AM
"Hook Up"?? There is no bail out in combat, ****bird,,,,,,,,

giveen
03-19-09, 08:04 AM
The ONLY time I think you should hook some one up is when they are like one point away from Sharpshooter or Expert.
I have thick glasses and I only unked once, and that was in boot camp. Granted, I only got pizza box my entire time.
What was irritating was my CO kept putting down on my Pro/Con's that I needed to improve my rifle score, but when I put in my request to get laser eye surgery, he puts me in as a class 3. For 3 years I waited to get my eyes fixed, never happened.

hempstead56
03-19-09, 10:56 AM
My PMI in Boot shot Pizza box. He told us it was because he was having marital problems at home and that was messing his concentration up.

Marine84
03-19-09, 11:04 AM
WTF are you talking about? That's fkd up, you're not doing your buddy any favors by giving a fake # so he won't unq. How about teach him how to shoot the damned thing?

Is that what they're teaching you young ones these days?

SSgt Ramsey
03-19-09, 11:05 AM
The ONLY time I think you should hook some one up is when they are like one point away from Sharpshooter or Expert.


What part of "you shoot what you shoot" is confusing??

It's wrong...morally and tactically....and Marine's could be killed or injured because of it, you can't justify that action....

What next, lying and inflating pro/con remarks because he's your buddy in the barracks??

giveen
03-19-09, 11:08 AM
What part of "you shoot what you shoot" is confusing??

It's wrong...morally and tactically....and Marine's could be killed or injured because of it, you can't justify that action....

What next, lying and inflating pro/con remarks because he's your buddy in the barracks??
SSgt, I am not talking about someone who is unk-ing.

Can you explain to me, how someone 1 point away from Expert, is going to cause them to be killed or injured in combat?

SSgt Ramsey
03-19-09, 11:12 AM
What's the difference? It's still dishonest. Why give that Marine the extra point? He/she didn't earn it...why should they get credit for it?

It's all about integrity Marine...either you have it or you don't...I'd rather have a Marksman badge(s) on my uniform that I earned than be some pathetic poseur who has the Expert w/10 awards on their chest....which unfortunately I know Marine's who have done that sadly.

You can't convince me that being dishonest is ever right...it's NOT.....that is NOT what we are...we are MARINE'S and CORPSMAN, period.

Doing the right thing for the right reason, even if nobody will ever know, should be all that matters at the end of the day...it's about integrity and pride.

giveen
03-19-09, 11:16 AM
I understand, SSgt.

thewookie
03-19-09, 11:35 AM
SSgt, I am not talking about someone who is unk-ing.

Can you explain to me, how someone 1 point away from Expert, is going to cause them to be killed or injured in combat?

What if that one point that you hook them up with, now makes that Marine eligible for promotion (perhaps over you) or to attend a school that he or she might not otherwise be able to attend (perhaps over you).

It's real easy to say it's only one point, and we all want to help our fellow Marines out, but that is what discipline and leadership is about - doing what is right when nobody is looking.

And for the Marine accepting the hookup: I wouldn't wear anything on my uniform that I did not rate 100%.

mcvet57103
03-19-09, 11:48 AM
SSgt, I am not talking about someone who is unk-ing.

Can you explain to me, how someone 1 point away from Expert, is going to cause them to be killed or injured in combat?So you cut the guy a break and spot him one point, what's the harm right? How about this. His buddy scores one point below him, should he spot his buddy two points?? It would never end, and also if you cheat it opens you up to NJP, and if it gets around, maybe some guy 5 points short telling you, either you give me 5 points, or I narc you off. Cheating is NEVER justified, unless it's an insurgent, and it's your azz or his. SF

Chumley
03-19-09, 11:51 AM
Well, I guess we know who just unked...

You read my mind.:sick:

mcvet57103
03-19-09, 11:54 AM
You read my mind.:sick:Having a toilet seat on your uniform is better than no award.:evilgrin:

charm1110
03-19-09, 01:23 PM
There's no reason a Marine should ever go unk on the range..If he/she does then there's something wrong in that Marines platoon. Going to the range isn't a 1 day event and you need to take advantage of all the time alloted for snapping in and also pre-qual, if a Marine can't figure it out he needs to get help. we used to have rifle/ pistol coaches that were there for that very reason. The real hook-up is learning your weapon and how to use it...

Quinbo
03-19-09, 02:14 PM
True story... I saw two outstanding sergeants give a wm 1 point on the pistol range so she would qual. What did she do to thank them you might ask. She went to the range officer and reported them both. They didn't have to go stand on the carpet but what they did get was a double sign fitness report and a page 11. So much for a hook up huhh. Both of them were then deemed ineligible for the promotion board so were forced to get out.

Two good carreer Marines went crashing down in flames because of 1 free point they gave.

I'll admit I have coached on qual day and talked a lad through the whole course of fire so that he would qualify. That too could be called breaking the rules I suppose.

usmchauer
03-19-09, 02:28 PM
It's agreed that no Marine should ever UNQ on a range. What's the old saying?

"If you ain't cheatin', you ain't tryin!"

TexasDvlDog
03-19-09, 02:32 PM
You gotta be Shi**ing me?!?! give a hook up at the Range?? Might as well shave some seconds off your run time, give them one extra pullup maybe some extra crunches?? Hell no, if you can't shoot and you can't run. Get the hell out of my Corps.

SGT VAS
03-19-09, 02:48 PM
Our whole **** talking to all the other branches stems from a lot of things but mainly do to the fact we can kill someone from five football fields away (which is pretty ****ing cool if you sit down and think about it):flag:

Having people cheat their way to not have to wear a Pizza Box is a disgrace to all the Marines before you. I would ****** murder someone if they picked up before me because they had a bull**** rifle score that was higher than my authentic score.

NewHarleyGear
03-19-09, 03:23 PM
I was a PMI at MCRD Parris Island from April 1978 until Nov. 1980 and trained approx. 50 platoons. I worked mainly on B and C lines and wish I had a dollar for everytime I said, "Sight alignment, trigger squeeze private". It was good duty except for the f__ckin sand flees and heat during the summer. I had to recycle some recruits, but not many. The quality of the shooter really depended upon the PMI's effort. The best qualifiers I'd have were the squirrel hunters from KY, TN, etc. The worst were usually left-handed (they didn't like the casing wissing by their face), wore glasses, from the city, and never handled a weapon before. It got to the point were I could visualize the .223 vapor trail and adjust the recruits rapid fire point of aim. Wish I had a 50 cal sniper rifle to play around with!

Gunner 0313
03-19-09, 03:32 PM
:flag:Sure as fu ck looks like someone fu ckin around on duty trying to stir up some sh it. Well sh itbird looks like you accomplished your mission. LMFAO !!!!

Wyoming
03-19-09, 05:51 PM
Profile says you to be a professional skater.

How's about doing it on someone elses dime.

SGT7477
03-19-09, 07:20 PM
Having a toilet seat on your uniform is better than no award.:evilgrin:
Yup the chitters badge,lol.:D

PaidinBlood
03-19-09, 09:49 PM
Well, I guess we know who just unked...


Read my mind... :thumbup:

commdog7
03-19-09, 10:26 PM
Besides, when I went to Bootcamp integrity, honesty, and honor meant something.

Rah!

Everyone wants to shoot expert, but it is better to earn it than be given it. When you help your buddy out by fixing his/her score, you are actually hurting the Marine's who have integrity. I have never fixed anyone's score, and I do not believe than anyone has ever fixed my score (I sure hope they did not). I have known plenty of Marines who have fixed a Marine's score, and I cannot stand it. Last time I was on the range, I shot the afternoon relay with some real bad wind gusts. I had always shot expert prior to this even in boot, but this was not my day... I qualified with a 209 (I'm embarrassed about that). What p!ssed me off the most was the pitts. I seen a Marine who could not shoot if his life depended on it get an expert when he should have unq-ed, all because his score was "fixed" (he was morning relay, so he had it made). I know I am a much better shooter than he is, but because of all this shady sh!t going on, he is wearing the expert and I am wearing the marksmen. That is not right, there is no reason his rifle score should exceed mine in terms of promotion. I did not want anyone to alter my score, just as I do not want anyone to alter anyone else's score.

When you start cheesin' sh!t, you lose your integrity and your honor- that's what makes a Marine a Marine. We are not the Army or any other service, we have high standards for a reason, it is something we take pride in. You may think it is no big deal, but this does not solely effect the rifle, it effects everything. Take the PFT for example, why is it that almost every Marine receives a 100 on crunches even though many are not able to do that many? It is just hurting the Marines who actually put-out during PT and actually earn their score. If they get a 95, give them a 95 so they can work on it for next time. That's what makes us strong, and that is what makes us Marines!

If you really want to help your buddy, teach them how to shoot.

Semper Fidelis :iwo:

390 Mach I
03-20-09, 12:16 AM
If one goes UNQ in the Corps. That person is UnSat. I would not want that fook to be anywhere near me when the SHTF.

Bottom line...
If you can't shoot straight...GTF away from me and mine.
:evilgrin:
:flag:
:iwo:

HurricaneRJ
03-20-09, 05:43 AM
I can't shoot worth ****. I could not see the targets through the iron sights. I have some bad stigmatization and everything real far away is blurry. I UNQ'd the ****ed out of table 1 and shot a bare minimum 60 on Table 2. Once I got to SOI/ITB and was issued an ACOG. I could see better and could knock down targets with ease, but now that I'm a SAW gunner, I just lead on by tracers.

Tallboot
03-20-09, 01:01 PM
After 5 Days of pulling pits, at the end of the day Marines get lazy (who doesnt), it effects the shooters score. I see Rifle Range just promotion, We use RCO's anyway. Thats why there is a combat portion with an additional 100 points, because honestly it was like 2.5 Years ago that i did that range, There was no Grass Week, or anything i just showed up and shot lol. I agree somewhat, theres times where you just dont have enough time to find that damn hole. Dont throw up a Miss, when you know he hit it.

TexasDvlDog
03-20-09, 01:40 PM
Hey I used to tell my Marines that if they give slow and crappy butt service that they were going to get the same in return! Payback was a *****! The next day they would remember what happened and they would get their A$$ in gear!

echo3oscar1833
03-20-09, 04:53 PM
Shooting requires practice and paitence. When I was in boot camp I shot high Sharp Shooter, when I requaled in the Fleet I shot Marksman for what ever reason shi$ happens I guess. However being out since 2003, I have been shooting every year since, and even before I went into the Marine Corps. It is based on practice and ability, If you think that someone should just help you out, just because you cant hit wtf your shooting out. You are wrong, suck it up and practice. Plus if you talk to the right people, you can get some range time in the Corps. Thats what I did, and on several occasions after shooting Marksman. Never got the chance to actually requal, but I know I can shoot, and hit my target without the help of someone else. Thats what matters to me.

ggyoung
03-20-09, 08:48 PM
[QUOTE=390 Mach I;465816]If one goes UNQ in the Corps. That person is UnSat. I would not want that fook to be anywhere near me when the SHTF.

Bottom line...
If you can't shoot straight...GTF away from me and mine.
:evilgrin:
:flag:
390 I have a question for you. Who would you rather in a hole with you on a OP or a LP someone who went unk at the range but had given a very good try or someone who was know en for falling a sleep while on post? Think about it. There could be a number of reasons for going unk. There is no reason for falling asleep on post.

mcvet57103
03-21-09, 08:30 AM
I barely qualified in Boot, Was neverous as hell. And I grew up plunking cans and bottles at 100 yards with a 22. Once I got into the fleet and settled down I shot one point below expert three times. pizzed me off missing it by one point, but at least I didn't have the toilet seat hangin on my uniform. No one to blame but myself for missing the bull once to often. I wouldn't have excepted a gimme. No f--kin way!! The cross, in my opinion, looks better than the horseshoe anyway. Not takin anything away from expert mind ya. SF

Old Marine
03-21-09, 09:37 AM
Bottom line is if you can't shoot the rifle, you can always become a machine gunner.

thewookie
03-21-09, 10:04 AM
Bottom line is if you can't shoot the rifle, you can always become a machine gunner.


:) ROTFLMAO - there's a job for everyone, and everyone has a job - Nice one, Gunny!

czindms
03-21-09, 10:08 AM
It's not about shooting - It's about integrity - our Corps doesn't compromise in any theater. It expects, acquires, and maintains excellence - simply that and nothing else.

BTW - my M-14 and I produced 247/250 that chilly 1969 April morning at the Island and that was that.

SGT7477
03-21-09, 01:07 PM
I qualified as a Sharpshooter in boot camp missing Expert by 5 points the next 2 years I qualified as an Expert you just have to apply yourself at the task at hand.

Old Marine
03-21-09, 04:52 PM
When I was on the Drill Field at MCRD, SD it was a known fact that Privates who were non-quals on pre -qual day were changing shooting jackets with expert shooters on qual day. This was mainly done in one Bn. at SD. The good shooter would be on 1st relay and after he finished firing the jackets would be changed behind the ready bench. The non-qual private never even fired the rifle on qual day. Sad thing for Marines to do but some Drill Instructors would do most anything to get a streamer on their guideon.

I graduated many a platoon with no streamers on the guidon, but the privates were basic Marines.

When I was in Boot Camp (1953) when you were a non-qual you had to wear your utilites backwards and on qual night they had a outdoor movie at Camp Mathews and non-quals sat with their backs to the screen.

Shooting the Rifle is mostly concentration whick comes from your azz which isconnected to your neck. The only way said rifle can harm you is if you are standing in front of the muzzle.

Wyoming
03-21-09, 09:20 PM
The unq's in '65, graduated. VietNam was going on, so ....

At the range, when you qualified, you were allowed to unbutton the top button and blouse your boots. Unq's did not so so.

On the hike back from the range to somewhere, before getting back to MCRDSD, the unq's had sand in their packs. Full to the top. If memory serves, the unq's also had to write a letter home, dictated by the DI's, telling their folks that they were failures.

sethp2pnplt
06-08-09, 11:03 PM
The Marine Rifleman is the backbone of the whole Marine Corps. ALL Marines are riflemen first, and their MOS assignment second. Period. To fix a qual score so a non-qual passes, is not omly detrimental to his ability to be a marine, but it puts all other marines at risk. If a recruit can't hit a target with an assist in the form of a loop sling what makes you think he can hit a target without it? Try this scenario. A base gets attacked say in Afghanistan. An insurgent strapped with explosives is sprinting towards the Ammunition Depot. All Marines in the area are busy defending their front. Joe Schnuck from Admin has been ordered to take up his rifle and assist. He's the only one who sees this guy running. In Boot Camp and the next qualification, they fixed his score so he passed. Now all that stands between the Ammo Depot and the insurgent is Joe. Nuff said. The rifle qualification segment of boot camp is in my opinion one of the most important parts of boot camp. If you can't shoot straight, you should not be in the Marines. You should be in the Coast Guard or some such. I can't believe a Marine even suggested that a non-qual be given a pass. SF


Every Marine is NOT a rifleman first. Marine Corps riflemen are riflemen first, unless you're 0311 you're not a rifleman first, most POG's like to think they are, but they're not. Don't get me wrong, I'm not talking **** about POG's, but being a rifleman means an assload more than shooting on the rifle range. I mean honestly, I don't think I ever seen someone in motor t sleeping anywhere besides the 7 ton. As far as what i think about the rifle range, the fundamentals are good to have, and every Marine SHOULD shoot expert regardless of MOS but it's really more important to get better on CQB and ESP shoots.

DocGreek
06-08-09, 11:06 PM
SETH.....PLEASE fill out your PROFILE....COMPLETELY.....THANK-YOU....DOC

mcvet57103
06-09-09, 05:14 AM
SETH.....PLEASE fill out your PROFILE....COMPLETELY.....THANK-YOU....DOCDoc, according to what he has filled out he has been in since 2003 and is still a Private. Says a whole lot about his attitude. If a recruit can't hit a simple target on a range, how does anyone think he will do when the real sh*t hits the fan. My ffather-in-law was with the Marine Corps Band, but found himself in to major conflics in Nam (Tet, and the Citidel). He can't change a spark plug on his lawn mower, but because he was a grunt first, he can shoot a rifle, and that's because he was taught how in Boot. This SETH guy doesn't know sh*t, from shineolla. SF

minormajor
06-11-09, 08:11 AM
Hitting the target is one thing, missing the target is another, Grouping is yet another.