View Full Version : Weapon Qualification
Rotella
03-03-09, 07:55 PM
I am wondering how weapon qual's work. Is there opportunity to gain qualifications with anything besides an M-16 in boot camp (like the M-9) and after boot camp how often is there opportunity to gain higher levels of qualification? I know some qualifications are only available to certain MOS's but I do not know the specifics. Any information is appreciated.
Pete0331
03-03-09, 08:16 PM
I am wondering how weapon qual's work. Is there opportunity to gain qualifications with anything besides an M-16 in boot camp (like the M-9)
No.
and after boot camp how often is there opportunity to gain higher levels of qualification?
Once a year at most for the pistol and rifle.
SGT7477
03-03-09, 09:16 PM
You qualify once a year so if you end up expert for the year you could very well end up with the chitters badge if you don't have it together the next qualifying time.
Rotella
03-03-09, 09:24 PM
Sgt, by "chitters" do you mean sharpshooter/marksman?
SGT7477
03-03-09, 11:57 PM
Sgt, by "chitters" do you mean sharpshooter/marksman?
Marksman the ****ters badge,lol.:D
rvillac2
03-04-09, 01:52 AM
You can only qualify for pistol if your MOS rates it or you are SNCO or higher.
thewookie
03-04-09, 05:59 AM
You can only qualify for pistol if your MOS rates it or you are SNCO or higher.
What about the bazooka, Sergeant?
I heard from my buddy's sister, who has a cousin in the Army who works next door to a Marine recruiter, that if we are there on the second Tuesday of the month we can qualify for the bazooka, and if we are there on the fifth Wednesday then we get to qual with the howitzer?
Is that true?
Boot camp is kewl.
DocGreek
03-04-09, 06:46 AM
HA! HA! HA! HA! AND....if you're a Corpsman, you have to qualify with a "water pistol"!!! Imagine a 98lb. GOOK, 5 feet away from you....charging you with an AK, and bayonet, HA!HA!HA!....by the time I got to my .45, I was "poked, and shot", in left upper shoulder......BUT....FIDDLE-FVCKING with my "cap-gun", got off ONE SHOT, when he was on top of me!! YES....I killed him, BUT must have looked like he was trying to FVCK ME...NOT KILL ME!!! I'm a wierdo...NO bad feelings for the NVA soldier, doing HIS job, and this DUFUS, trying to do HIS JOB!!! HA! HA! HA! STUPID CORPSMEN!!!.....DOC
0231Marine
03-04-09, 06:51 AM
At least you had a .45 back then. In the here and now, you'd have to get off 3-4 rounds to put that same NVA soldier down with the Barretta.
Great story though Doc!
sparkie
03-04-09, 07:04 AM
In 4 years I qualled with the M14 once, the M16 once, and the .45 once. Sometimes it depends on the unit. Maybe only grunts qual every year, I don't know.
My issue was a .45.Of course I Fam Fired everything, that was nice.
Pete0331
03-04-09, 07:35 AM
In 4 years I qualled with the M14 once, the M16 once, and the .45 once. Sometimes it depends on the unit. Maybe only grunts qual every year, I don't know.
My issue was a .45.Of course I Fam Fired everything, that was nice.
It's Marine Corps wide, supposedly.
I only qualed once n 4 years, not counting bootcamp.
There was a point when I hadn't fired a rifle in two and a half years.
thewookie
03-04-09, 08:08 AM
HA! HA! HA! HA! AND....if you're a Corpsman, you have to qualify with a "water pistol"!!! Imagine a 98lb. GOOK, 5 feet away from you....charging you with an AK, and bayonet, HA!HA!HA!....by the time I got to my .45, I was "poked, and shot", in left upper shoulder......BUT....FIDDLE-FVCKING with my "cap-gun", got off ONE SHOT, when he was on top of me!! YES....I killed him, BUT must have looked like he was trying to FVCK ME...NOT KILL ME!!! I'm a wierdo...NO bad feelings for the NVA soldier, doing HIS job, and this DUFUS, trying to do HIS JOB!!! HA! HA! HA! STUPID CORPSMEN!!!.....DOC
Hey Doc, no offense but what's the story with the Purple Hearts? The other day I looked and you had two stars, now you have 4 stars - wholly sheet man how the hell are you alive? Thanks for your service, Doc.
thewookie
03-04-09, 08:09 AM
At least you had a .45 back then. In the here and now, you'd have to get off 3-4 rounds to put that same NVA soldier down with the Barretta.
Great story though Doc!
Should be 3 rounds max with a failure drill.;)
0231Marine
03-04-09, 08:16 AM
Should be 3 rounds max with a failure drill.;)
Since Doc's telling war stories, I'll chime in too.
Ramadi, 2006. We're on a mounted patrol gathering atmospherics from the locals and we're strong pointed at an intersection downtown. Just as we're about to move to foot mobile, a blue sedan comes whippin around the corner and 3 guys (driver, passenger out of the sunroof and back seat passenger) start opening up on us from about 50 meters. Classic L.A. drive by style like they just watched Boyz in the Hood. They take off and we return fire and initiate pursuit. These tool bags take the turn to hard and flip the car on its side and when our lead vic rolls up on them, the driver got too close so our gunner couldn't point the 240 low enough to engage them. They're about 5 meters away and attempting to exit the vehicle and flee on foot so our turret gunner draws his 9mm and unloads a full magazine on these guys. It was like shooting fish in a barrel.
The End!
During training I watched a force guy have a malfunction with the MP-5 and draw his pistol. That went to hell too so he drew a boot knife and stuck the target right between the eyes with it.
I did security duty for my base and got qualified for use of the M1014
http://www.usmcweapons.com/articles/M1014/M1014NF.htm
Also got my Less than Lethal qualification with it as well.
0231Marine
03-04-09, 08:44 AM
I did security duty for my base and got qualified for use of the M1014
http://www.usmcweapons.com/articles/M1014/M1014NF.htm
Also got my Less than Lethal qualification with it as well.
What base was that?
What base was that?
MCAS Yuma, we were at Alpha Plus level, and so each command had to volu-told Marines to support the MP for a period of 3 months.
And since we were guarding the front gate near a civilian establishment we werent allowed to carry M-16's up there, so we got issued the shotgun.
So I was working with the MP's from Sept 2003 - March 2004 as a guard for the base. I had the 2200-0600 shift. Man, that sucked.
thewookie
03-04-09, 09:40 AM
we were at Alpha Plus level
And since we were guarding the front gate near a civilian establishment we werent allowed to carry M-16's up there, so we got issued the shotgun.
WTF - that threat level sounds important, but it's only important that you appear to be able to protect/defend it, not that you actually can. Typical politics. Case in point the shotgun over the M-16's.
Now don't get me wrong, I can do some damage with a shotgun - I love em. But when it comes to manning point and protecting a base via the front gate I'd much rather have the M-16's variants. I understand you have civilians close, and rounds travel fast and far. But when it comes to a point where you need to employ deadly force to protect the front gate then you shouldn't be thinking about safe distance zones, or not be one of you main concerns.
My rant is over.
The only thing we really had to be afraid of was illegals trying to climb over our fences, lol.
Ah yes, standing post at the front gate with the Mausberg shotgun. I still practice my "failure to stop drills" at the range with my 9mm. I always liked the Marines that qualified marksman with the m16 and then Marksman with the 9mm. I think the tem we always used was "pizza, pizza" from the Little Caesars commercials....
I was a pizza box :( Stupid glasses. I signed up for laser surgery but for three years never got it.
Fubar5812
03-04-09, 07:25 PM
look at my sig...tell me how it is that I can blow a man sized targets head off at 500 yards with ironsights but can't hit **** at 25 yards?
since where on the subject,Rumor has it that these days where qualifying with M4's/m16a4's WITH optics for rifle qual..any truth to this? train how you fight and all that.
NoRemorse
03-04-09, 07:39 PM
look at my sig...tell me how it is that I can blow a man sized targets head off at 500 yards with ironsights but can't hit **** at 25 yards?
since where on the subject,Rumor has it that these days where qualifying with M4's/m16a4's WITH optics for rifle qual..any truth to this? train how you fight and all that.
Depends on your unit. If it's in your T/O you will most likely also be qualifying with the optics.
thewookie
03-04-09, 09:23 PM
look at my sig...tell me how it is that I can blow a man sized targets head off at 500 yards with ironsights but can't hit c r a p at 25 yards?
A lot of good rifle shooters can't hit c r a p with a pistol, and vice-versa, so don't feel bad. The fundamentals of marksmanship are the same for both weapons, but they are applied differently with each weapon also. And with the rifle, you are shooting at the body from 500 yards w iron sights. The best M-16's in "standard" service shoot 2MOA at 100 yds. 2x5 = 10 inches - slightly bigger then the size of the average head. You might hit the head here and there but it's not your aiming point with that weapon from that distance, and not where most guys will hit consistently, just my two cents.
The biggest problem most pistol shooters face is related to trigger control. Trying to overcome the fear of the bang which results in jerking/slapping/squeezing. One good way to overcome this is by prepping the trigger.
Alisium
03-04-09, 09:55 PM
Depends on your unit. If it's in your T/O you will most likely also be qualifying with the optics.
Ahah! I had been wondering that myself. How about the sling? Do you still have to take of your tactical sling and use the old one from the 70's on the range?
IMHO The KD course and PFT should be overhauled dramatically.
PaidinBlood
03-04-09, 10:54 PM
Ahah! I had been wondering that myself. How about the sling? Do you still have to take of your tactical sling and use the old one from the 70's on the range?
IMHO The KD course and PFT should be overhauled dramatically.
Yeah parade sling remains for the KD portion of rifle qual. Everyone is always shooting off claiming we need to "update" those annual training events and all we end up with is are RETARDED abominations like Table 2 "Field Fire" and the King Cluster, the CFT. These classics are fine. They are not the end all be all of combat readiness, but nothing but combat can test you for combat... If it ain't broke, quit looking... :D
DocGreek
03-04-09, 11:53 PM
WOOKIE...Got my ASS chewed by 3 marines, who I served with, in 69', and was told that if I didn't show my 4 P.H.'s....they would personally come to Florida, and kick my AZZ! I STILL haven't received my DD215, from those idiots on the web! It's been 4 months now! TRUTH....don't know WHAT EXACTlY, I've got coming to me, especially the devices on the ribbons....MY DD214, ONLY shows The National Defense Medal!! A lot of men, who were shipped out, to Japan, and the Hospital Ships, had the same FVCK-UP!! PROMISE to fix my Signature....when I get my DD215!!! CLEAR???....DOC
It's "pizza box" now? I shot "toilet seat". http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-basic/shy.gif (http://www.freesmileys.org) After shooting expert mid-week.http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-basic/bash.gif (http://www.freesmileys.org)
0231Marine
03-05-09, 06:41 AM
WOOKIE...Got my ASS chewed by 3 marines, who I served with, in 69', and was told that if I didn't show my 4 P.H.'s....they would personally come to Florida, and kick my AZZ! I STILL haven't received my DD215, from those idiots on the web! It's been 4 months now! TRUTH....don't know WHAT EXACTlY, I've got coming to me, especially the devices on the ribbons....MY DD214, ONLY shows The National Defense Medal!! A lot of men, who were shipped out, to Japan, and the Hospital Ships, had the same FVCK-UP!! PROMISE to fix my Signature....when I get my DD215!!! CLEAR???....DOC
Doc, I doubt anyone on here is going to dispute your medals in your signature block.
Definitely is a testament to what you went through while you were in.
Semper Fi!
thewookie
03-05-09, 07:17 AM
WOOKIE...Got my ASS chewed by 3 marines, who I served with, in 69', and was told that if I didn't show my 4 P.H.'s....they would personally come to Florida, and kick my AZZ! I STILL haven't received my DD215, from those idiots on the web! It's been 4 months now! TRUTH....don't know WHAT EXACTlY, I've got coming to me, especially the devices on the ribbons....MY DD214, ONLY shows The National Defense Medal!! A lot of men, who were shipped out, to Japan, and the Hospital Ships, had the same FVCK-UP!! PROMISE to fix my Signature....when I get my DD215!!! CLEAR???....DOC
I hear ya bro, no problem here and thanks for your service. I noticed and had to ask. Thanks again, Doc.
Fubar5812
03-05-09, 03:22 PM
A lot of good rifle shooters can't hit c r a p with a pistol, and vice-versa, so don't feel bad. The fundamentals of marksmanship are the same for both weapons, but they are applied differently with each weapon also. And with the rifle, you are shooting at the body from 500 yards w iron sights. The best M-16's in "standard" service shoot 2MOA at 100 yds. 2x5 = 10 inches - slightly bigger then the size of the average head. You might hit the head here and there but it's not your aiming point with that weapon from that distance, and not where most guys will hit consistently, just my two cents.
The biggest problem most pistol shooters face is related to trigger control. Trying to overcome the fear of the bang which results in jerking/slapping/squeezing. One good way to overcome this is by prepping the trigger.
I think my head just exploded :p
Man I gotta come to plymouth sometime and talk with you sometime Sgt,your one of the most informed people on weapons i've ever met,especially from MA.thanks for clearing that up though,appreciate it.
Pete0331
03-05-09, 03:34 PM
I think my head just exploded :p
Man I gotta come to plymouth sometime and talk with you sometime Sgt,your one of the most informed people on weapons i've ever met,especially from MA.thanks for clearing that up though,appreciate it.
All he said is that the M-16 is not a precision rifle, and the aiming point should be the torso (center mass) to maximize on accuracy.
You can only qualify for pistol if your MOS rates it or you are SNCO or higher.
I'm qual'n with the pistol right now, and I'm a pog. There's also a couple Pvts, a bunch of PFCs, and a few LCpls qual'n with us, and they're also pogs.
To add to that, for the poolee, there are other opportunities out there. For instance, get on a Marine Corps shooting team, and voila. You'll shoot the M16 series, M9, and 1911.
Pete0331
03-05-09, 07:53 PM
I'm qual'n with the pistol right now, and I'm a pog. There's also a couple Pvts, a bunch of PFCs, and a few LCpls qual'n with us, and they're also pogs.
Speaking of a line company.
Wpns Plt guys, SNCO's, and Officers had priority first.
If there are any spots after that they can be given to other Marines.
Which rarely happens.
thewookie
03-06-09, 06:09 AM
For instance, get on a Marine Corps shooting team, and voila. You'll shoot the M16 series, M9, and 1911.
Sounds so easy,,, haha - just kidding with you. Don't forget the M-14's . You will shoot a lot if you get on a shooting team, but you better really love shooting cause that's all you'll do. Sun up to sun down, day after day, week after week - snapping in, shooting, snapping in, classes, more snapping in, more classes, more snapping in and some more shooting.
The Marine Corps Shooting team is something you don't just get on. You might be able to shoot your way on a base or unit team, but the Marines on the Marine Corps Shooting team are selected - they are shooting professionals and Olympic level athletes. I know a few guys, two, that were on the actual USMC Shooting team and they said it's more work then you might think. They also did a lot of skating compared to guys in the fleet.
thewookie
03-06-09, 06:13 AM
All he said is that the M-16 is not a precision rifle, and the aiming point should be the torso (center mass) to maximize on accuracy.
Exactly what he said.
Always Center Mass - time to be a hero and go for head shots when your finishing a failure drill (or behind a scope). Take the nice big target and give it some lead, then follow through with a head shot if necessary.
thewookie
03-06-09, 06:57 AM
I think my head just exploded :p
Man I gotta come to plymouth sometime and talk with you sometime Sgt,your one of the most informed people on weapons i've ever met,especially from MA.thanks for clearing that up though,appreciate it.
I'm not hard to find.
Most informed, thanks but I'm still learning. I was fortunate to be around some good people during my eight years and I listen hard, and soak things up like a sponge.
Come on down, or up - we can go to the local rod and gun club and have at it, I can spend a day working with you and you'll leave better then you came. Half a day snapping in, and a half day shooting, and the pizza box is gone forever.
Pistol shooting is all about the trigger finger.... master that and you don't half to come here.
Prepping the trigger means to "pull" some of the slack out of the trigger as you're acquiring your sights on target. This is not done when the weapon is pointed at the deck at a 45-degree angle, your coach will kill you and it's technically a violation of one of the four firearm safety rules, this should occur, when you move the weapon from the hunt (or what we called it) to the firing position. Most inexperienced pistol shooters focus on the FSP, and once they have proper sight alignment and correct sight picture - then they start the trigger pull. They teach you that way, step by step - and it works. I'm not telling you what they teach is wrong, I am saying you have to "speed" up the fundamentals and make it more fluid. When you prep the trigger: you pull the slack out of the trigger as you're acquiring your SA/SP, and once you get it down - by the time your SA/SP is locked on you can finish the remaining trigger pull to fire the round - BANG
This is taught more in reactive shooting drills, but you can prep the trigger in slow fire also. It's a mindset; know the pull on your pistol like a combination to your footlocker. There's a lot of slack in the Beretta 9mm, so, by prepping the trigger, it leaves less room for thinking about the bang, which results in bad rounds. And more time for follow-up shots, if necessary.
ttracker65
03-06-09, 07:50 AM
Range Quals are once a year for all Units. For some such as FAM Certs it can be as often as every 90 day's to once every 2 years. Alot depends on if they are Crew served weapons or small arms. As an 1833 you have to Qual with the M-16/ M-4 every year and directly before Deployment. But only have to pass FAM on the Turret Mounted weapons M203 and the 60 class weapons. Just my two bits worth
Fubar5812
03-06-09, 09:24 AM
I'm not hard to find.
Most informed, thanks but I'm still learning. I was fortunate to be around some good people during my eight years and I listen hard, and soak things up like a sponge.
Come on down, or up - we can go to the local rod and gun club and have at it, I can spend a day working with you and you'll leave better then you came. Half a day snapping in, and a half day shooting, and the pizza box is gone forever.
Pistol shooting is all about the trigger finger.... master that and you don't half to come here.
Prepping the trigger means to "pull" some of the slack out of the trigger as you're acquiring your sights on target. This is not done when the weapon is pointed at the deck at a 45-degree angle, your coach will kill you and it's technically a violation of one of the four firearm safety rules, this should occur, when you move the weapon from the hunt (or what we called it) to the firing position. Most inexperienced pistol shooters focus on the FSP, and once they have proper sight alignment and correct sight picture - then they start the trigger pull. They teach you that way, step by step - and it works. I'm not telling you what they teach is wrong, I am saying you have to "speed" up the fundamentals and make it more fluid. When you prep the trigger: you pull the slack out of the trigger as you're acquiring your SA/SP, and once you get it down - by the time your SA/SP is locked on you can finish the remaining trigger pull to fire the round - BANG
This is taught more in reactive shooting drills, but you can prep the trigger in slow fire also. It's a mindset; know the pull on your pistol like a combination to your footlocker. There's a lot of slack in the Beretta 9mm, so, by prepping the trigger, it leaves less room for thinking about the bang, which results in bad rounds. And more time for follow-up shots, if necessary.
I'll have to take you up on that offer next time I'm back home. When we did our pistol qual at MP school they allowed us (at the 25 yard) to cock the hammer back before every shot if we so desired,This was easier for me in that it when the weapon did fire it didn't make me jump as much and was more of a surprise,I found that when taking up the slack I would anticipate the shot even when I was trying not too.I'm sure i'll have to re-qual when i get to hawaii..you'll be getting a few PM's from me around that time :)
PaidinBlood
03-06-09, 09:53 AM
I'll have to take you up on that offer next time I'm back home. When we did our pistol qual at MP school they allowed us (at the 25 yard) to cock the hammer back before every shot if we so desired,This was easier for me in that it when the weapon did fire it didn't make me jump as much and was more of a surprise,I found that when taking up the slack I would anticipate the shot even when I was trying not too.I'm sure i'll have to re-qual when i get to hawaii..you'll be getting a few PM's from me around that time
Normally this isn't a "hook up" but a training tool. Gettin foggy now but isn't the Beretta DA on the first shot? If so, they were trying to help you improve that critical first shot which often becomes a flyer on account of the anticipation of the shooter.
Scratch that, they were hooking you up which is good for qual but terrible for training. Better to practice each shot DA in order to improve that first shot. I know in all your MP training they must have mentioned how many rounds are exchanged in the avg LE gunfight, as well as the avg standoff distance. Not too many-make 'em count
Semper Fi :usmc:
Fubar5812
03-06-09, 12:57 PM
yea that's a good point,hell if all else fails I got my dog "halt halt halt or i'll release my dog!" "get em!" of course that is a LAST resort.
I still don't get why we use the beretta,a 1911 45. can do in 2 shots what the beretta can do in 5 hehe.
Pete0331
03-06-09, 01:34 PM
I still don't get why we use the beretta,a 1911 45. can do in 2 shots what the beretta can do in 5 hehe.
Round placement trumps stopping power.
2 hits square to the mediastinum will do the same, .45 or 9mm.
We use the M9 because the inventory of 1911's the US military had were worn down enough that it was time for either replacing the thousands in the inventory or going to a new weapon system.
At the same time NATO was pushing the 9mm round.
Nowadays we are faced with a similar problem. With the training and operational tempo the M9's are getting worn out, but its difficult to convince the armorers of that.
They don't do preventative maintenance, they do function checks.
If you tell one of them "hey bro, my pistol isn't accurate anymore, let me get a new barrel, etc" they will probably say "it's because you suck."
The .45 the MARSOC/Force uses is pretty much custom built on older frames.
All the working parts are new.
The M9 originally didn't have a safety.
It was added to be a competitor for the military contract.
What we now called the "safety" was the de-cocking lever.
The insanely long and heavy trigger pull was meant to be the primary safety.
Much like the first M-16's were junk the first M-9's sucked as well. When the M-9's first came into service it was discovered that after around a thousand rounds the slide flew off and usually straight back into the shooter. All of them had to be retrofitted with a better slide block. When I was a boot we had .45's then 9 mils then back to .45's until the powers that be got it straightened out.
PaidinBlood
03-06-09, 05:18 PM
Only problem is we're still shooting the same M9s from that second batch.....most rattle so bad when you run out of rounds the enemy doesn't know..:D
Sounds so easy,,, haha - just kidding with you. Don't forget the M-14's . You will shoot a lot if you get on a shooting team, but you better really love shooting cause that's all you'll do. Sun up to sun down, day after day, week after week - snapping in, shooting, snapping in, classes, more snapping in, more classes, more snapping in and some more shooting.
The Marine Corps Shooting team is something you don't just get on. You might be able to shoot your way on a base or unit team, but the Marines on the Marine Corps Shooting team are selected - they are shooting professionals and Olympic level athletes. I know a few guys, two, that were on the actual USMC Shooting team and they said it's more work then you might think. They also did a lot of skating compared to guys in the fleet.
Yea, I'm on KC's shooting team. We had two members leave and head to Quantico for the USMC Team in the last 6 months. Def a lot of work, but well worth it. And there's perks...I'm TAD for 30 days in sunny Cali for Western Div Matches.