Is the war in Iraq turning into a modern day Vietnam?

[Shaffer]

As the dust settles from war, several Saddam loyalists are causing problems and killing several American soldiers. Reminding us of a lost, but not forgotten war in Vietnam. As different as this may be, the similarities are starting to pile up. What are your thoughts?

[richgitz]

I don't think there will be peace, till they get Saddam and his two
sons. As long as he's alive, he'll have people loyal to him. Probably
a lot of them think thr US will get tired of al the BULLS**T and pull
out. Then Saddam will get back in power and they will have favor
with him for holding out. I think if the GREEN-MACHINE was still
there this S**T wouldn't be happening as much. If all fails "NUKE-
EM ALL"

[CPLRapoza]

My thoughts exactly SSGT richgitz, Nuke em' all and let God sort them out.

[BigCat]

This is completely different, both militarily and politically...Yes...we need to find Sadaam and the boys....Once that is done, I think we'll see alot of the "loyalist" activities stop. I believe that there is still a major fear among the Iraqi people that Sadaam is still alive and can come back to make life a living hell....Once we have him in custody or prove that he is dead I think things will change for the better. The other problem we have is influence from the Iranian clerics and hard line muslims in the region....That also needs to be quelled in order to get a democracy rolling in that country.

[TJR1070]

I agree with the Gunny that this situation is completely different politically, however the enemy does have alot of similarities that we faced in Vietnam. A fanatical enemy that we cannot readily identify that slips in and out of the civilian population, a cowardly enemy that will attack from within civilian areas, using terrorist and guerilla tactics. An enemy that has no regard for their own people around them and will cause civilian casualties to further their own cause. Worse than that these people are not motivated by political but religious ideals. Supported by outside influences, as the Gunny pointed out, such as Iran and oh yea our buddies the Saudis. I think this will turn into a quagmire with every muslim with an axe to grind joining in the fray. I do think the ONLY way to stop the crap that's been going on is to nuke a middle eastern city. Obviously the only thing these people understand is violence and power, so lets show them some real power! Otherwise how do you stop it when your supposed best friend in the region sends fifteen people to fly planes into buildings in our cities? How do you stop it when they are teaching their children to hate us? How do you stop it when even the moderates in these countries hate our guts for no other reason then jealousy? You send a clear unambigous message: Mess with us and we will revisit the destruction on you tenfold. The Iraq situation as it is, gives more rise to splinter groups complaining that we are trying to take over and occupy the middle east and gives an outlet and training oportunities to new groups operating in the region. Hey don't know if that plan will work, well lets try it out on the American troops in Iraq. The President gets many kudos for having the balls to go into Iraq, but without going on to the next country and the next, Iraq will provide a proving ground for future Al-Qeda's. A place to train the young fanatics at the expense of the best this country has to offer. It's about time our leadership realizes that this IS a war with Islam and if they aren't going to recognize that then we are in for a long bloody war that will make Vietnam look like a fist fight (no disrespect to Vietnam Vets intended). The worst part is most of our casualties will be our civilians in our own land. The last time they murdered over twenty friends of mine and I for one think we should have nuked one of their cities then. We haven't gotten enough payback for 9/11 or enough political gains to prevent it from happening again. I for one hope that we wake up to the reality and deadly seriousness of this problem before I have to go to funerals for another two years!!

[thedrifter]

True Viet Nam will never be forgotten...........It lives on in all Veterans..............Military we did not lose the War in Viet Nam, the U. S. Government after 1968 had no real plans to win the war. Politically the war was lost......Just setting the record straight...........Iraq is a different type of war, once things settle down, it will thrive as a Nation.

Sempers,

Roger
:marine:

[Gary]

starting to look that way :no:

[mrbsox]

Gotta go "MAYBE", and Pray not.

At this point, NO. But if the politics don't stay on the alert, I'm afraid it could. Look at Afganistan. The Russians were in there 10 years, and made no major changes. We've been there pushing 2 yrs, and done what ???

Forced the terrorists into hiding, where they can recover and plan???
Have we won the hearts and minds of the people ???
Have we quit dying over there??

I hope Iraq doesn't go that way. I support GW, all the way. But if any of his 'cronies' start trying to cover their ass, and/or get rich off the situation, I'd have to rethink it.

Terry

[arzach]

Tacticaly, it's very similar...hit and run, cause a few casualities a day hoping the American population won't take the losses...I've felt it would go this way from the first time I heard the iraqi army was 'melting' into the population....

Politicly, it's very different...We do have a goal, but it will take a very long time to realize it....Iran, Syria..sorry boyz, I still don't trust the russians for s**t. Can't forget all the 'terror' groups, they are playing their hand in this as we speak....

Rick

[gylancaster]

I say if fired upon by those who side with the king of the litter box then we should give them a good class of Fire Superority, and if the ragheads wants to hide in a mosque and shoot at us then call in the air and level the mosque and that ends the problem. We will always find the Ragheads who are loyal to the Litter box King, and his two crown scumbag sons, we need to find those three ragheads and exterminate them w/extreme predjice no questions asked cause it will save us one hell of a lot of money in the long run. Just bury the scumbags in the desert as he did to the Kurds and the other Iraqis who opposed him.

[wrbones]

Ray is BACK! LOL.

Welcome back Gunny! How the hell ya been, Marine!

[Roberto T. Cast]

No this is no Vietnam War. Yea, we have straglers making trouble in Iraq, but it all will end. We have more fire superiority than Iraq. In Nam, they had good fire armaments being furnish by the Russians. And Iraq don't have it. That is the major reason this is no Vietnam.

If we had the fire power we have now, Vietnam, I think, would not lasted that long. Precision bombs would have taken care of Hanoi.

I hope it will be over soon and bring our troops home. Let hope this will not drag on and on. Our soldiers need to finish the job and this nation needs to bring our boys home.

If there is any kind of trouble from the inside or outside, NUKE THEM. Show the region that we mean business and that the U.S. of A will not pussy foot around. That is why Vietnam was not successful. If Syria and Iran need to nuke, nuke them. Show them we mean business.

Your president needs to be savvy and have free hands to call all the shots. His hands need not be tied behind his back like L. Johnson.

I truely hope, there will not be any kind of deals with the enemy in order to end the war like a past president did. This war needs to be won at all cost. The middle east needs to be square away.

[Sgt Sostand]

i dont thing their will ever be another war like Vietnam at lease i hope not

[geojaye]

My concern is you are dealing with a population that appears to not care who is in charge...that sounds too much like RVN. The other thing that causes me concern is that just this week the politico's said "we're probably looking at 5 years for the military.

I hope it doesn't go that way but even the slightest hint of it makes my hair (what little there is) stand up.

Geo
RVN 65/66

[arzach]

I agree with ya Geo., there are a few sililarities to da Nam...blowing up pipelines, sabotageing utilities, the always present ambushes. One good thing is, iraq if fairly isolated, unlike da Nam...Population is gonna go with whoever gives them what they want now...some want electricity, some want dead Americans...really starting to smell like RVN more and more...

S/F
Rick

[richgitz]

I'm hoping and praying that this war don't go the way it do when we were in. The way this country is, everything like a computer
game, it's over in a couple of minutes. The speed of todays soc-
ietyis playing against any prolonging of the war, or mounting
KIA'S. As each day passes the more fearful I become that we
may have another Viet Nam on our hands. SEMPER-FI Brothers.:qmark: :marine:

[thedrifter]

I found this article....which I felt was most fitting here....
Another point of view......

Iraq is Not Vietnam, But...
Tony Karon's Weblog: Mounting guerrilla campaign against U.S. forces has hacks and grunts reaching for Apocalypse Now

Tuesday, Jun. 24, 2003
It's hard for Americans to shake the collective memory of Vietnam when they're sending young men and women to kill and die in distant lands. And it's not only the quagmire-phobic antiwar types that can't avoid the Vietnam references: To raise their morale before entering Iraq in March, U.S. Marines in Kuwait were visited by R. Lee Ermey, the Vietnam vet who has become a USMC legend for his portrayal of a hard-as-nails gunnery sergeant in Stanley Kubrick's 'Nam flick "Full Metal Jacket." Ermey obliged by reciting some of his more memorable motivational lines from the movie, which as at least one embedded British reporter discovered, remains a key reference for today's Marines in the field. But there are others. Just last weekend, U.S. troops psyched themselves up for a sweep in search of Saddam loyalists by blasting Wagner's Ride of the Valkyries through loudspeakers in a bizarre homage to Francis Ford Coppola's "Apocalypse Now."

But the main reason for the sudden surge in Vietnam analogies may be that U.S. troops, having deposed Saddam, find themselves facing a growing guerrilla insurgency. Soldiers are dying every other day in sniper shootings, grenade attacks and ambushes in Baghdad and cities to the north and west. And despite some initial reluctance to acknowledge the scale, U.S. officials are now admitting they're facing an organized campaign.

The forces attacking U.S. troops appear to be well trained and equipped, and they're able to find cover in a civilian population in Baghdad and to the north of the city that harbors considerable resentment toward the occupying forces. They're also hoping to take advantage of the fact that most of the U.S. troops in Iraq are trained to kill the enemy and win battles rather than for the delicate balance of combat, policing and civic affairs work involved in an occupation mission — witness last week's photographs of U.S. troops trying to control an angry crowd at bayonet-point. (After two Iraqis were killed in that confrontation, U.S. troops began training with non-lethal antiriot gear. Unfortunately, however, the U.S. is facing an uphill battle for Iraqi public opinion, particularly in light of the propensity of much of the local population to believe the worst rumors about the American forces. They may be untrue, but tales of rape and pillage are doing the rounds and helping alienate Iraqis from the U.S. authorities.

The insurgents also appear to be constantly evolving their tactics to respond to new U.S. moves against them. On the one hand, they're more inclined to avoid concentrating their forces and making them an easier target, but on the other hand they're expanding the range of their own attacks. Sabotage attacks on oil pipelines reveal an acute awareness of Iraq's points of vulnerability, while Wednesday's firefights that killed six and wounded eight British troops mark an even more worrisome development. While attacks on U.S. forces had been mostly confined to the Sunni Baathist heartland, the Britons were attacked in the overwhelmingly Shiite region around Basra. It could be that such attacks were mounted by the same largely Sunni groups that are harassing U.S. forces in Baghdad and to the north — after all, Saddam's (mostly Sunni) Fedayeen were active as far south as Basra in the early days of the war. But if they were carried out by Shiite militants, that could signal the beginning of a second front and a substantial escalation in the guerrilla campaign — until now, Shiite groups opposed to the U.S. presence had nonetheless condemned armed actions against the occupation as "premature."

British casualties are likely to turn up the heat on Prime Minister Tony Blair, facing accusations in his own parliament that he misled the nation into war by deliberately exaggerating the WMD threat posed by Iraq. They may also reinforce the resistance of British military chiefs to sending more troops, as requested by Washington, into what British officers believe may be a quagmire.

By attacking non-U.S. coalition forces, the insurgents may also be trying to discourage others from entering Iraq. India, for example, has been sharply divided on whether to send troops: While some in the government are keen to ingratiate New Delhi with the U.S. by going in, others warn that it's a no-win commitment that will imperil India's standing in the Arab world.

While Iraq is a very different situation from the one that confronted the U.S. military in Vietnam — the enemy has no regional or international backers to support and sustain its insurgency; the terrain and technological capability of the U.S. precludes any concentration of forces; as long as the rebellion remains confined to Sunnis its maximum political support base is no bigger than 15 percent of the population — it's the idea of U.S. troops confronting an enemy indistinguishable from an often hostile civilian population that gets alarm bells ringing. A report in London's Evening Standard last week contained disturbing accounts, from interviews with U.S. troops, of incidents in which civilians have been killed. The hostility of the civilian population in towns such as Fallujah is plainly sapping the morale of U.S. troops who had expected to be home in time for July 4 cookouts. Some are speaking out more and more bluntly to reporters in anger at the changing nature of their mission: Rifleman Matthew O'Dell told the New York Times, "You call Donald Rumsfeld and tell him . . . (we) are ready to go home. Tell him to come spend a night in our building." The idea of in-country R&R facilities certainly has an echo of Vietnam; so does the recent USO show in Baghdad featuring Kid Rock and a Playboy bunny (the rapper extolled the virtues of presidential marijuana).

But the most worrisome comparison for the Bush administration may be in the duration. Vietnam, after all, saw U.S. troops tied down on a distant battlefield for ten years. Although he did his best before the war to downplay suggestions by uniformed officers that an Iraq occupation mission would be long and costly, Deputy Defense Secretary Paul Wolfowitz now appears ready to acknowledge that U.S. troops could be there for the next ten years, and will probably require the construction of permanent bases — and also that together with the Afghanistan mission, the Iraq security mission will likely cost around $54 billion a year.

Early indications are that much of that burden will be born by the U.S. taxpayer. For example, although a dozen countries are expected to contribute small numbers of troops to a 20,000-strong peacekeeping force led by Poland, most are expecting the U.S. to pay their way. Occupation is certainly a costly business: Just this week, a further $300 million was added to the annual budget with the announcement that U.S. authorities would resume paying salaries to Saddam's now disbanded professional army. But that may be a sound investment, since if a quarter of a million trained soldiers have no stake in the post-Saddam order, there are plenty of renegade Baathists with wads of cash to buy their services in support of an armed rebellion.

The Vietnam comparisons may exist mostly in our heads — both the soldiers obsessed with imagery from "Full Metal Jacket" and "Apocalypse Now," and a media corps looking for simple analogies to describe complex problems. But what they do reveal is a growing anxiety over the long-term nature of the Iraq occupation. Nor is there much comfort in the observation by those coalition-of-the-willing Spanish, who are finally sending 1,100 troops to join the fray in Iraq, that the situation there is not at all like Vietnam. No, says the daily El-Mundo, it's more like the Palestinian intifada.

Going to link takes you to other links....
http://www.time.com/time/columnist/karon/article/0,9565,460834,00.html?CNN=yes


Sempers,

Roger
:marine:

[badbob]

There are some similarities; I don’t like seeing our Troops playing Cop on the beat, that was my first job in Vietnam.

I however believe that we do have a well defined mission and are following the plan. We must reframe from criticism and let it play out.

Semper Fi,
Bob

[Dennysz]

War has not changed throughout the century's. During Vietnam we allowed the will to win to be dictated by Jane Fonda and the North Vietnamese. We did some stupid things that our political leaders dictated. They had no will to win. Because of what our freedom (do not interpret license) means we cannot lose this one and survive as a free people. Pray for our troops on the lines and thank God for the ones that have so far given their lives for us.

[JChristin]

One key feature of our involvement in Iraq vs. Vietnam is that with Iraq, there was an immediate shift of power in the Middle East. This didn't happen with Vietnam.

Has anyone noticed that once we become successful in the removal of the great Hussein from power - all of a sudden, those fractions in the Middle East changed their tune. Palestein (sp) now has a Prime Minister - and Isarel is willing to talk peace. Now that the evil regime of the great Saddam is no longer a key player in the Middle East, those who once benefited by his support and presence are willing to talk peace.

The conflict in the Vietnams didn't afford this type of opportunity. Todays conflict offers hope in one of the most troubled regions of the world. If played out right, we may not have another Vietnam to contend with. However, the world will be waiting and watching - especially the leaders of the Middle East, as our country readies itself for another presidential election. Timing is everything. It's going to be interesting to watch how everything plays itself out. Therefore, it may be a bit premature to determine if we have another Vietnam on our hands.

semper fi
jchristin

[Sophora]

I was 6 going on seven when my dad went to Nam for his second tour in 65. The difference I see today is that America supports our troups. I can't comment on the political/mililitary aspect of the war put I can on how it is different for the mothers and fathers, wives, husbands and children of the troops being deployed. They can be there to hug and wave flags as their loved ones deploy, they have the support of the communities they live in. When they return they will have bands playing and flags waving. That to me is a major difference. The Military BRaTs today (Born Raised and Trained) do not have to feel shame for what their fathers and mothers are doing. So meny children will morn the loss of their parents the way things are going but today they have support, they don't have to hide their grief.

Every day I watch the news to see what is happening, I learn about the KIA and WIA,s for this new war and I cry for those who are gone. I also feel proud that America has so many brave souls who are willing to give it all to bring freedom and liberty to the world. I feel that no matter what the world thinks, America is willing to shead it's blood to bring peace.

I pray for our troops and mostly I pray for their children, and I'm grateful to know that the BRaT's today will not feel the shame I was forced to feel over NAM.

[outgoing]

Sorry, but couldn't disagree with you more. While there may be similarities in your mind, let me remind you that every war since Vietnam as had this stigma attached to it. It's hard to make that claim when the KIA weekly reports from Nam were 275 to 300 per week versus what you have in Iraq. It is not that every life lost is not important, they are. We fought an organized Army in Vietnam, whose leader did not fly airplanes into our buildings nor attack our people directly here in the US. In addition, was I the only person in this country that saw that this post-war Iraq would be just as it is; those Saddam loyalists refusing to cave in and the "outsider Muslim extremists" crossing the borders of Iran, Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, to get at the Americans. After all, they declared a "Jihad" against "ALL" foreigners in the country after the war ended. Similarities, yes. Actualities, None that I can see.

Mike
Sgt USMCR
Vietnam 1967-1968

[iveck]

I would hope that the Iraq war doesn't drag on as long as the Vietnam war did. In my opinion there is simularities: We are fighting a people that all look the same, who's who? There's already political end fighting and the war protest are cripping up slowly. People are asking what's the real reason we are there.

I think that if we move forward with a purpose, are hands don't get tied behind our backs by politicians and we look at a realistic time to accomplish our mission, we can do it right.

My biggest fear is that if the wars last for years, and the casualty rate raises, will the American public and the politicians stand behind their commanders and troops overseas on the front lines.

I feel that in Vietnam we paid too great a price, losing 58,000 Americans and then pulling out as if those lives were expendible; they were not! But I for one will always support our troops on the front line.

R. Sanchez

Gysgt. Ret

RVN 1970-71/0311

[MillRatUSMC]

It like Beirut, Lebanon of 1982 and Vietnam.
Many don't care, who is in charge.
There a power vacuum and the Iraqi's are banking on our short term vision.
It's also their hope that the American people will get tired of hearing and seeing American service people killed everyday or week.
It's also a year before an election to see, who will be our next President.
LBJ, fought the War in Vietnam with an eye more on his "war on proverty" than the war in Vietnam.
One sense that the government is fighting this war on terroism with an eye on next year election.
Shades of Vietnam.
We pray that we can ride out this storm of terrorism...

Semper Fidelis/Semper Fi
Ricardo

[dedom]

Not even close................