PTSD review process

[Dougmateo]

I have been attending PTSD counciling with a MFT specialist since June 2008 at a VA Center and have been making progress (I think?). I was recently directed by a VA hospital to attend a more comprehensive program with MD's & PHD's. Has anybody gone through either one of these programs and what was the end result? I also have a claim that's under review for PTSD and was curious how long this process takes? Note: I was attached to 3/9 3rd Mar. Div. Vietnam in 1969 as a Naval Doc.

Thanks for any help you may be able to give me.

Semper Fi

[Pete0331]

I have been attending PTSD counciling with a MFT specialist since June 2008 at a VA Center and have been making progress (I think?). I was recently directed by a VA hospital to attend a more comprehensive program with MD's & PHD's. Has anybody gone through either one of these programs and what was the end result? I also have a claim that's under review for PTSD and was curious how long this process takes? Note: I was attached to 3/9 3rd Mar. Div. Vietnam in 1969 as a Naval Doc.

Thanks for any help you may be able to give me.

Semper Fi

I was evaluated by a shrink in 2005 or so.
The end result of his eval was either deal with it or go on meds.
I didn't go on the meds.
Never go on the meds.

I don't consider PTSD a disorder, but enviromental and situational conditioning and the inability or difficulty to reintegrate.

[Dougmateo]

Pete,

Thanks for your response. I have never been a fan of taking medications, but I do now take some for blood pressure & cholesterol. I think your end result of just dealing with the PTSD is the best course of action. I'll keep your thoughts in mind as I enter through this process. Best regards, Doc

[Pete0331]

Pete,

Thanks for your response. I have never been a fan of taking medications, but I do now take some for blood pressure & cholesterol. I think your end result of just dealing with the PTSD is the best course of action. I'll keep your thoughts in mind as I enter through this process. Best regards, Doc

Thanks Doc, it helped that I quit drinking and smoking also.

What helped me was keeping in touch with old friends, and not closing myself off as some tend to do. It helps having somebody who was there with you that will listen to all the times you had together. Both good and bad.

Get involved with a veterans association that is active in the community if you have the chance, not a group that only drinks and complains about their wives.

Everyone is different, and it doesn't hurt or cost anything to get checked out buy the VA Docs.

[DocGreek]

Gentlemen....Question's: 1. How many times have you been married and divorced?
2.How many different jobs, have you had, since Nam?
3.Can you sleep peacefully, through the night?
4. Do you have nightmares, about Nam, or violent deaths?
5. Are you an alcoholic, or a big-time doper?
6. Ever get so violent, and drunk, that you spent time in jail?
7. Do you jump, like a jack-rabbit, when you are surprised by a loud noise?
8. When you watch war movies, like "Hamburger Hill", do you sweat, shake, and
cry?
9. Ever think about killing yourself, and maybe a few others?
10. Ever been locked up in a nut ward?

If you answered YES, to 5, or more of these questions.....YOU NEED PROFESSIONAL HELP! That doesn't make you a p***y! If you were in combat, during the war, (Viet Nam OR The Gulf), your P.T.S.D. is worth at least 50% disability.
How do I know so F*****g much?? Read my profile, I'm 100% disabled for P.T.S.D.!! My very best to ALL who suffer......SEMPER FI.....Doc Greek

[Dougmateo]

Dear Doc Greek,

Thanks for your help regarding my PTSD issue, your support is very appreciated. I just wish that you had a better re-entry to CONUS after your medical support to the Marines in Vietnam. I might have some other questions along the way and if I don't become a pest, I hope you won't mind a note or two in the future?

Best regards,


Doc Doug
3/9 3rd. Mar. Div. 1969

[FistFu68]

:usmc: THERE ARE BEAU COU MORE VIETNAM VETS THAT HAVE BLOWN THEMSELVES AWAY THAN THAT WHERE ACTUALLY KIA, IN THE 'NAM.THIS IS SOME SERIOUS CHIT.GO GET HELP YOU OWE IT 2YOURSELF AND YOUR LOVED 1'S :usmc: :iwo:

[DocGreek]

Gentlemen.....I'm ALWAYS available, 24/7/365, I won't and can't tell ANYONE how to live their life. Think of YOURSELF FIRST!! Don't expect a silver bullet, to fix everything, in 3 months. Please spend time, talking with your "Bro's", When you see that we all share the same symptoms, and f**K ups, you're in GOOD company! Keeping all of your experiences, and emotions, bottled up, only leads to "the BIG BANG!" Shrink, kept me out of jail, but I've spent time in straight jackets, and rubber rooms. Hurt a few people, smashed a few cars, and was interrupted, by a Bud, when I had my 9mm in my mouth....pulled the trigger, and "NADA"! No round in the chamber!! I've learned to FIRMLY believe in two things.....GOD...AND ME! Religions suck the life out of me, and my wallet. Sounds nuts, but saw GOD in action, in the Nam. Gave me support, and "cool" head, to get the job done right! When you're a Squid, in combat....and have multiple wounded, YOU have to decide who'll have the best chance to make it, and who won't. NOW.....a lifelong burden, GOD HELP ME!!.....SEMPER FI.....and I mean that!....Doc Greek

[DocGreek]

If you're a Grunt, or a Squid...suffering P.T.S.D. symptoms, one minute, one hour, and one day, at a time! Try your BEST, to see your Combat experiences, as truthfully, as possible. DO NOT weave in any "maybe's, what if's, or personal guilt and shame"! REMEMBER.....you're NOT the only Vet with problems, we ALL have our burdens, to carry. When you hear, and SEE other Vets, with similar problems, AND WORSE.....give your support, and share your experiences.....IT DOES HELP!! I'm ALWAYS AVAILABLE, FOR SUPPORT!!.....SEMPER FI......Doc Greek

[AnHoaVet]

PTSD is real & if you think you have it, please go to your nearest VA hospital and check yourself in. The Phds, Mds & case workers do a wonderful job of handling the situation. If it takes meds, take them! Those doctors that handle PTSD have come along way since the 90s and they are trained to handle your situation through counseling, classes, meds...the whole nine yards.
I did not believe any of this until 3 months ago when I totally lost it! I entered the emergency room on October 2nd, under the advise of my VA doctor, at Mountain Home VA hospital in Johnson City, TN. First thing they did was lock my butt up in E-2, the mental ward. I stayed there for 11 days before transferring to the domicillary where I will be released on January 13, 2009. The doctors told me I was in control of my care...they were only there to help. Once they got my meds right, I attended classes, went to counseling, had my diet changed, got hearing aids, new glasses, foot surgery...you name it, they rebuilt this broken down soul and have made me whole again. I do not regret coming in here. At the age of 59, I finally feel whole again! With the aid of the VA and Jesus Christ, I'm ready to face the world again. That's my testimony! I hope it will help anyone that has gone through the nightmares, flashbacks, panic attacks, suffers from the flat effect (lost your drive) or has uncontrollable anxiety problems. Remember, the VA is there to help you! My advise is get to a VA hospital before you put that gun to your head. I know, I almost did it!

[egbutler1]

PTSD is real & if you think you have it, please go to your nearest VA hospital and check yourself in. The Phds, Mds & case workers do a wonderful job of handling the situation. If it takes meds, take them! Those doctors that handle PTSD have come along way since the 90s and they are trained to handle your situation through counseling, classes, meds...the whole nine yards.
I did not believe any of this until 3 months ago when I totally lost it! I entered the emergency room on October 2nd, under the advise of my VA doctor, at Mountain Home VA hospital in Johnson City, TN. First thing they did was lock my butt up in E-2, the mental ward. I stayed there for 11 days before transferring to the domicillary where I will be released on January 13, 2009. The doctors told me I was in control of my care...they were only there to help. Once they got my meds right, I attended classes, went to counseling, had my diet changed, got hearing aids, new glasses, foot surgery...you name it, they rebuilt this broken down soul and have made me whole again. I do not regret coming in here. At the age of 59, I finally feel whole again! With the aid of the VA and Jesus Christ, I'm ready to face the world again. That's my testimony! I hope it will help anyone that has gone through the nightmares, flashbacks, panic attacks, suffers from the flat effect (lost your drive) or has uncontrollable anxiety problems. Remember, the VA is there to help you! My advise is get to a VA hospital before you put that gun to your head. I know, I almost did it!
Awsome advice! Granted I was not in Vietnam as it seems this is where the post is at right now. But I am a Marine who served in Iraq and well you all know I don't need to explain. Your war was freaking insane but I won't downplay mine. Took me 2 years to fully come around and notice how F-ed up i really was even though I was already rated 50% for PTSD i still didn't belive it. It can never hurt to go to the VA and get help, I was never locked down or put into a streight jacket. I got my meds right after some trial and error got into a weekly group thing with other OIF vets and we all shoot the sh!t, its like being back on the block, and a whole set of good Phds/MD helping me out. I'm sure you all have friends like i do that have killed themselfs, hell i tried it. But the one common thing I see about those who took their own lives is well most of them never sought out help, well other than self medicating with booze and street drugs. As for my claim it took me about 3 months of seeing doctors and such and i filed it and did as they required and 8 months after i filed my claim bam! Got my C&P Exam which took 5 mins and there i got 50% PTSD ($728.00 m) + 10,000 back pay check. GET HELP! SF MARINES!

[FistFu68]

:usmc: WELCOME HOME MARINES GODSPEED TAKE IT A DAY AT A TIME :usmc: :iwo:

[OldGruntNamVet]

Gang; It was quite a few years till I would finally come around. Hell I thought I would be able to overcome all that was going on myself. Hell I was a Hard azz Marine. Ive been through worse. It took me 40 years to finally realise that I needed Help. Now I have loss of memory (short time" ,lose my train of thought, slow speaking, etc,etc. After moving to SC I met a veteran who was the DAV commander. He told me in a matter of words that I needed to do something before it was too late. Filed for PTSD, D/M, and agent orange exam. Rated only 30% right now ,Rated Incompitient, I guess I better close this,getting too long. What I did want to say to you was "Dont wait Marine". If you are having problems related to PTSD. GET HELP !! Guarentee if you dont it will surely get worse. Get help for yourself and your Loved Ones:thumbup:
Welcome Home & Semper Fi

[Dougmateo]

Dear Grunt,

Thanks for your solid advise. I'm presently going to a Vet Center in San Francisco since June and also some more extensive work with some psychiatric folks that specialize in the tratment of PTSD. The only adverse opinion of all this help I'm getting, is that I find myself dwelling even more on Vietnam than I have in 40 years. I guess the answer to that is, you have to open the memory bank in order to cure the problem, I think?

Anyway, take care and Happy Holidays.

Doc Doug

[KawiGunny]

Dear Grunt,

Thanks for your solid advise. I'm presently going to a Vet Center in San Francisco since June and also some more extensive work with some psychiatric folks that specialize in the tratment of PTSD. The only adverse opinion of all this help I'm getting, is that I find myself dwelling even more on Vietnam than I have in 40 years. I guess the answer to that is, you have to open the memory bank in order to cure the problem, I think?

Anyway, take care and Happy Holidays.

Doc Doug

You are exactly right Doug. The hardest part of being diagnosed with PTSD, is accepting that you have it. Putting aside all that macho Marine stuff and dealing with the issue. I have been seeing a Doc 1 on 1 and going to the Vet Center for group. Works good for me. Helps me keep the temper under control. It does suck having to "dig up old bones" but that is the way they do it. Bring it back to the surface and then deal with it. We (Marines) tend to be cold hearted when dealing with combat and thats just the way it is. We don't have time to deal with it at the time so we just keep going. Eventually all those memories we have stored up want out.

I have a friend from my Vet Center Group that just checked in for theropy. He will be gone for anywhere from 60 - 90 days. Maybe longer if they feel he needs to stay. I have heard great things about those places. They help you deal with the issues everyday. Not just once a week at a meeting or group.

[DocGreek]

Gentlemen....Combat experienced, Marines, and Corpsmen, all suffer symptoms of PTSD. NO...there is no CURE for it! Only Med's, to keep us peaceful. Go to a VFW, or a DAV, and watch......the old timers, WWII, Korea, and Viet Nam Vets, after a few drinks, they spill their guts to their Bro's. That's "Group Therapy!!" Same/same, as what the V.A. provides, only with a counselor, to keep a little control, and keep the discussion on target. Being an alcoholic, it took a couple of years, to get sober, then several years to come to terms, with my combat experiences.
"God grant me the serenity, to accept the things, I can not change, the courage to change the things, I can, and the wisdom, to know the difference.".....I keep a RVN coin in my pocket, with that prayer on one side of it. GOD BLESS, AND KEEP YOU ALL!!!......SEMPER FI.....Doc Greek

[BigPhil]

Doc is right, I have been going to VA counselors and group meetings for the last 4 years, every 2 weeks,with mds. I will be liveing with it for the rest of my life. A person has got to deal with it.

[Dougmateo]

I'm sincerely grateful for all your responses during my (PTSD) troublesome times. I also need to pay a great dept of gratitude to the men and women that make up the VA Hosptials, Vet Centers, American Legions, and all the other caring people of this great nation and free world.

Please have a safe Holiday Season and pray for the troops around the world for a speedy return to CONUS.

Doc Doug

[DocGreek]

I really want to say something, bold, and memorable, that helps ALL of us, suffering the symptoms. Living, one hour, one day, at a time, is NOT easy. That's why "we", cling to our past, and re-live it all the time. Shrinks, say that thinking that way only makes your symptoms worse. Trying to justify, things I saw, and did, doesn't bring back those fine, young MEN, it just makes me feel more guilty, and ashamed, for not being to save ALL of them. The symptoms, of P.T.S.D., keep all of "us", banded together......for life. GOD, help us all!.....SEMPER FI.....Doc Greek

[Dougmateo]

I'm pleased to report that I have been awarded 70% disability for my PTSD issues. I started the paperwork back in June and have been receiving notices from the VA regional offices that the process is slow and apologized for the delays. I guess a six month turnaround is not to bad under the conditions the VA staff has to work under?

I'm continuing my PTSD treatments through the Vet Center, and also with PHD & Psychiatrist support on a weekly bases. The progress is steady but slow. My lack of sleep and nightmares have been toned down to some extent and my irritability & anger issues seem to be improving. This journey never ends, but it does help very much to get HELP!!

Thanks to all of you that have offered me advise and support over the past six months. I totally appreciate all your time, expertise & kindness during my tough times. :)

Best regards,


Doc Doug
3/9 3rd Mar. Div. 1969

[FistFu68]

:usmc: ALL WE GOT IS EACH OTHER DOC IT'S BEEN THAT WAY SINCE THA' NAM,IN A WAY IT MAKES IT MORE TOLERABLE KNOWING THAT WE ARE NOT ALONE ANY MORE;MAKE THE BEST OUT OF THE REST OF YOUR LIFE IF YOU CAN.WELCOME HOME BROTHER :usmc: :thumbup:

[DocGreek]

Doc Doug.....I was at Balboa, in late 66, then to Key West for almost 2 years, then Orlando NTC, just after it opened. Got my orders to 3rd Marines, on December 24th, 68....Merry FU**ING Christmas!! I'm glad that you are progressing with your claim. Got my 100%, P&T last December.....the 27th!! Talk about some IRONY!!! OH, YEAH....I was with Lima, 3/3, till Sept. of 69. Got so filled with holes.....looked like a piece of Greek Swiss cheese!! Is it okay to make you a friend??.....SEMPER FI.....Doc Greek

[montana]

the brain movies just keep replaying themselves..the wisky takes um away for a little...but the they are there with the hangover...went 29 years...differant job every year or less...wife would say wake up that was 20 or so years ago...couldnt tell her no its happening now....she worked for social services...took cours for ptsd for abused kids...started to see things then told me you have ptsd...told her i couldnt have.....havent been with another women in years...<----<<<joke)...then saught help...all the help in the world wont let me have my kids back as young ones..scared to come anywhere near me when a sleep cuz they knew they would be flatend...or the feer of getting close to ayone cuzz you know it only takes a second and they be gone..robbed me of being the person i wanted to be..if va would have tried to help ,,,let a fella know that it wasnt the way you were spose to act, think ..way back when things could of been differant some what. just thought i was a azzhole and thats the way it was..damb dreams...damb war...scuzzz meee wasnt a war...police action..waaa waa waaa im done now

be safe good people

[DocGreek]

BILL.....riding your horse, or cuttin firewood takes the bad sh!t away....for a while. I've made some USMC friends, here where I live, and we get together at each other's house......play poker, shoot the sh!t, tell War stories.....lie like H*LL!! I guess it's kinda like group therapy, cause we help each other out, whenever we can. It's not bad at all! My VERY BEST TO YOU, BRO!!!!.....SEMPER FI.....Doc Greek

[Dougmateo]

Doc Greek,

Absolutely add me as your fellow corpsman buddy!!! How do I add the medical Caduceus to my profile.

Doc Doug

[Dougmateo]

Montana,

Thanks for your posting. I can't say that I had the same acute issues you have had over the years. I was blessed by a loving wife that somehow kept me from going over the edge. Heck, I didn't recognize I had PTSD, I did know that I was suffering from something but it has just been diagnosed after I retired. I'm not sure I would have gone to the mental guys earlier in fear that I would be tosed out of my job. Anyway, it's never to late to get some of your wrinkles smothed out. I did involve my wife and daughter in the Vet Center sessions so that they would have a better understanding of my many flare-ups that I have had over the years. I recently have been put on a med called Prazosin HCL to ease some of my nightmares. So far, I think this has helped lesson some of my terrible sleep problems.

Thanks again for your message and I wish you the best.

Doc Doug

[DocGreek]

Doc Doug....go up to "My Info", at the top of this page. When your info pop's up....you'll find "Avatars", click on it and you can find what you're looking for!! In My Info....there's lot's of stuff you can add, or delete....try it!!....Doc Greek

[Dougmateo]

Doc Greek,

Thanks for the Caduceus information. As you can see, It is proudly displayed below my name. I have a question, as diagosned by the VA, can a person ever loose their PTSD disability percentage?

Doc Doug

[FistFu68]

:evilgrin: YES :evilgrin:

[DocGreek]

HEY....CHEESE-HEAD!!! You're right, if you're less than 100%, P%T. I was 50%, for wounds, and ugliness, then.....after being locked up, in a rubber room.....twice, they, almost instantly, made me 100%!!!!! Don't worry, Doc Doug.....you'll get your's! Here's a FUNNY.....my PTSD started when I threw my P.H.'s, into the face of a Navy Captain, while I was bedridden, in Yokusaka, Japan Naval Hospital!!!!......THORAZINE, RUBBER ROOM, and STRAIGHT JACKET! Long, unpleasant story.......SEMPER FI, GENTLEMEN........Doc Greek

[Doc Van]

Although I am proud of being a corpsman, I feel alone somtimes. Those of us with PTSD are part of the Faternity that was never ment to be.

[FistFu68]

:evilgrin: WE STILL GOTTA TOW THA' LINE DOC,4 OUR BROTHERS THAT DID NOT MAKE IT BACK ALIVE :evilgrin: :iwo:

[Doc Van]

I'm currently haveing a hard time with it. About an hour ago I got out of some seriously intense therapy. In school they told me, I (we) can not save everyone. That dosn't stop me from trying. Nor do I feel any better when one of my Marines would slip away from me. I feel regret that I didn't try hard enough or wasn't smart enough. Why? Why do I feel this way?

[DocGreek]

Doc Van.....it's called "survivor's guilt", a symptom of many, of P.T.S.D. victims. It's going to be very tough, but you're a Navy Corpsman, like me, and counseling IS available, over there. You're NOT a puzzy, for attending some group therapy, and talking with a counselor. Don't look for a quick fix.....you'll learn to cope, and be an even better Corpsman. REMEMBER.....NO FRIENDS!!!! BUDDY'S, YES. Try, as hard as you can to put all the bad sh!t in perspective.....you ARE doing your BEST.....and the Grunt's know this. Religions SUCK, BUT.....you'll find GOD in the field....with you. You have MY FULL SUPPORT......NO MATTER WHAT!!!.....SEMPER FI, BRO.....Doc Greek

[tractorrat]

OK Doc, I've got a question for you.I have been married 3 times -have had well over 150 jobs in 4 or 5 totally unrelated fields since my discharge in 1967 - still wake at the slightest sound, identify it as threat or not, react as appropriate - dreams were constant after return but gradually slowed down over the years with the help of alcohol self-medication therapy -still jumpy over any sudden sound or movement - always check for possible exits or protective cover everywhere I am even to this day. When wife #2 died of cancer and I was unable to grieve "properly" (2002) a FNG grief counselor (vet) suggested that I might need help and sent me to VA. They agreed that I was totally and permanently disabled due to PTSD at 3 different C&P exams and awarded 30% (2003), 50% (2004), and 70% (2006). They offered drugs to sleep (which I probably needed after group therapy brought back all of old **** I thought I had buried), drugs to cope and drugs to make the others work together. I tried them all very briefly and decided I didn't want to live the rest of my life drugged. Group therapy really only made things worse - dreams and regrets of wasted life when so many others never had a chance for a life at all and worsening depression. Now they say I will never get 100% if I don't go back to therapy and take my drugs like a good boy. What do you suggest?? Go back or continue to develope my own coping skills without them?? I can't work anymore and the 100% would really help, but is it worth the price?

[DocGreek]

Buddy...your life, and mine have gone down the same set of tracks. 3 marriages, 3 divorces, more than 100 jobs, alcoholic....big time, lots of psychedelic drugs, ex-con,and traveled ALL over the U.S.!! Tried to off myself, a couple of times, and was put in rubber rooms....twice! NOW....type II Diabetes, cataracts, in both eyes, triple by-pass in 97', and in late Nov. 07', tried to kill two azzholes, and myself....ANGRY, AND DEPRESSED!!! With the help of caring, supportive, people at the V.A. clinic....was rated 100%, permanent, and total. AND...YES, I've been going to group therapy so long....I've worn a rut, in the V.A.'s rugs!! Take Zoloft, Zanax, Lamotriginine(???), Toprol(for high B.P.), Glyburide for Diabetes....and a couple more, for being an azzhole!! See the shrink, every 3 months, and group therapist, once a month....plus Medic/Corpsman Group weekly. 99% of all this SH!T, is MY choice, NOT forced on me!!!! P.T.S.D. is NOT, NOT, NOT cureable....PERIOD!!!! Drugs, and therapy help a lot, BUT......MEMORIES, can not be wiped out....they're FOREVER!! Am I still FVCKED UP???? BIG TIME, but.....SO WHAT!!!!!! ONE HOUR, ONE DAY AT A TIME!!!!! I TRUST my Bro's, I Trust my GOD, and I TRUST ME, ME, ME!!!!!......PERIOD!!!!!! P.M. me, anytime...just to shoot the sh!t, or to hear ME complain...TOO!!!!......DOC

[Doc Van]

Tractorrat, I'm pretty new to this who thing. I've found for me, finding something that I'm willing to fight for...somthing I am proud of helps a litle. I refuse to take meds, I've seen alot of my Marines get hooked and become dependent upon them. Not me, I have to be able to stand on my own feet. For a while I though since the Navy is done with me I'll find some were else were I can go do what I'm good at, (being a Corpsman). I know warfare and am good at it. When I'm there I only think about my task at hand and nothing else. Everything els just melts away. So I seriously considerd joining the French Forign Legion. But after that what would I do? I'd be right back were I started. I need to find somthing new. I'm just confused. I'm only 24. WTF over.

[montana]

I only went to 4 counseling classes...told them to shuve the drugs and still got 100%
must be my ability to look plumb screwed
although i have never left nam in my head...like movies that just wont go away...up in the woods fall a tree and start bucking it up..minde in nam...driveing down the road minde in nam...i was also a rat...but never seemed to bother me to much...had a few dreems ect but not much eles...then one day i was under the house of a neibors working on a brocken water pipe and all of a sudden i went skitso...got out from under the house heart was beating 100 miles an hour was sweating...wife was standing back with a half scared look on her face...whats wrong...beats me...was 20 some years after my last rat hole and befor id heard anything about ptsd...a few months later my bailer pluged...crawled in and started pulling hay out ..same thing tore my shirt up and scrached the crap out of myself from the pickuo teeth on the bailer.....was told by a phyck...much later that we can sometimes when younger repress feeling and thoughts..but as we get older and we start to break down ....these things once put away start to leak out so to speak...and bite you in the back side...
just my two cents worth..

be safe good people

[DocGreek]

WE...are NOT PUZZY'S!!! Asking for help, doesn't make you a chicken-sh!t. It's ACCEPTING the fact, that you're in trouble, and need some help coping. PTSD, is a fvcking war wound, that flares up under various personal circumstances. DO NOT BE ASHAMED OF YOURSELF, this problem is as old as the act of WAR!! YOU DESERVE COMPENSATION....AND....CAN GET IT!!!! Speaking out, HERE, is a BIG STEP toward understanding, and acceptance of OUR burden!! Sitting around, with other Vets, who are suffering too.....telling your "story", will show that we're ALL the same. Still Brothers, no matter what!.....ALWAYS FAITHFUL.....DOC