MOS 5700. After the Corps

[LandsNGrooves]

I searched this topic well on here and on the rest of the Internets.For other CBRN takers there are 2 threads that come up in search here
http://www.leatherneck.com/forums/showthread.php?t=71623&highlight=CBRN

and http://www.leatherneck.com/forums/showthread.php?t=45483&highlight=CBRN

I was wondering if you guys have any words on what kind of careers I should be looking for if I deicide the Corpe isnt for me past my 4 years? After my recruiter talked me out of 03, I just looked thru the book and thought NBC would be the best job for if I leave. With the talk of Dirty Bombs and mass terrorists attacks,I feel someone like a CBRN Marine would be in great value in the private sector. Is this true?

I still would like to go into Law Enforcment or something very similer. Any idea on agencies having positions evolving out of these new threats?
Some kind of LEO/Hazmat kind of thing?

I want to make the most of my time as would anyone. If I can get togather a plan before I leave for boot, I think Id be better off, because I can take the nececary college classes while Im in to help me along towards that career.

And to any guys that have been in the current conflict, do 57's go on patrols? I hope soo.

[0231Marine]

Corpe? I think you mean CORPS!

All the CBRN Marines I knew hated their jobs. And I don't think they go on too many patrols either...but I may be mistaken.

As far as life after the Marine Corps, well I'm sure a CBRN background wouldn't hurt in this day and age.

[rvillac2]

I was wondering if you guys have any words on what kind of careers I should be looking for if I deicide the Corpe isnt for me past my 4 years? After my recruiter talked me out of 03, I just looked thru the book and thought NBC would be the best job for if I leave. With the talk of Dirty Bombs and mass terrorists attacks,I feel someone like a CBRN Marine would be in great value in the private sector. Is this true?

I still would like to go into Law Enforcment or something very similer. Any idea on agencies having positions evolving out of these new threats?
Some kind of LEO/Hazmat kind of thing?

I want to make the most of my time as would anyone. If I can get togather a plan before I leave for boot, I think Id be better off, because I can take the nececary college classes while Im in to help me along towards that career.

And to any guys that have been in the current conflict, do 57's go on patrols? I hope soo.

In my opinion, this MOS will not give you any specific advantage into a career field. The LEO/Hazmat jobs are specialties of other careers. For LEO, the bomb squad is comprised of cops with extensive training in explosives handling (you don't do any of that in NBC). For HazMat, these are often firefighters with extensive training in material containment and operations in hazardous environments. Now, you will have experience in working with protective gear and decontaminating equipment, but once again, this is only a secondary skill to the firefighter. NBC will not give you any advantages in a firefighting career. There are also engineers in HazMat, civil, mechanical, structural, etc, but once again, they are engineers first and hazmat second.

All of these careers that you are thinking of require college and training in a specific area. The Corps will help you mature into a good student and will likely give you an advantage over other college students in the terms of discipline and a goal achieving attitude. However, once again, these Marine traits are not limited to NBC Marines.

Hope this helps.

[LandsNGrooves]

Thank you Marines. I first told my recruiter i wanted Infantry or MP because i wanted to go into some kind of Criminal Justice career, but he said alot of agencies(which ive heard this too) are weary of MP Marines because "we do things different" and my "plan" wasnt so much one.

So I basicaly cleared my clock and picked what i thought was the MOS with the best transferability.57-- .Owell! A friend of the familly is retired FWFD,Ill have to give him a call,see what he thinks. I guess if all else fails, Corrections is always there.

Thank You guys .

[rvillac2]

You can still pursue a criminal justice career regardless of what MOS you get.
I think you're going to find a lot of people on this site who would suggest you go after another MOS, though.

[TJR1070]

Sgt. Rvillac2 is correct in his first port, as a former 5711 and a current firefighter the two jobs are completely different. Once you get onto a law enforment agency or the Fire Service some prior experience may help in getting selected for additional training. In both fields however both explosive disposal (which we do none of) and HazMat are very infrequent events and are not the primary jobs of any public service.

I strongly disagree with the Sgt's second post however. I had one of the most rewarding jobs in the Marine Corps, I got to train Marines to protect themselves and others from hazardous environments. It may not have been what some Marines wanted to do, but once I learned what the actual job was and started doing it I loved every minute of it. I will tell you this, on the way over to Desert Shield/Storm I was the most popular guy on the ship. Everyone wanted me to personally check their mask fit, it was standing room only during my classes and once we got "In Country" and the Scuds started flying over our heads nightly, I was the most popular guy to be around until the "All Clear" was given. So my experience was more than I could have imagined and it gave me a true sense of what brotherhood is and what looking out for the Marine next to you means. I was glad that it would be me that my unit counted on if the worst thing any of us could think of (a chemical attack) happened.

[rvillac2]

My apologies, Cpl R for making you think I was disrespecting your MOS. That last post was only a reflection on some of the posts I've seen on this board regarding this particular field. Your perspective on the point is refreshing. One could argue that safeguarding NBC skills is as important as any other combat survival instruction.

Side note: You notice that the troops aren't carrying their gas masks anymore? That's just too alien to us 80's-90's vets.

[TJR1070]

No apologies necessary Sgt., I know what you were trying to get across to the young poolee. It's hard to give advice to someone about their future when their perspective is so unexperienced. Your post was right on in regards to the future civilian aspect but I guess as a 5711 I'm just used to defending my MOS first and asking questions later. It definately isn't the MOS for everyone and depending on what unit you are with the day to day duties can vary greatly. Probably some of the reason that opinions about this job are so different.

Honestly I thought I was only one of the few people that noticed in most pictures of Marines in current combat operations it appears that they aren't carrying their gas masks. I would never try to second guess decisions made by Marine leaders, but all I will say is complacency kills.

[0231Marine]

Side note: You notice that the troops aren't carrying their gas masks anymore? That's just too alien to us 80's-90's vets.

It's not too alien. In 2004, we carried our gas masks every where we went. Chem/Bio is still a threat in Iraq. I even remember Gas Masks Wednesdays in the rear...fun fun fun!

[LandsNGrooves]

You can still pursue a criminal justice career regardless of what MOS you get.
I think you're going to find a lot of people on this site who would suggest you go after another MOS, though.


Would you suggjest any knowing what my goals are? I had Avionics 2nd choice and MP 3rd. I really want something towards the Front. I want atleast one firefight. Foolish might sound, but I have a very specific reason why, and I really dont wanna come home cherry intact.

Its been hell waiting for my ship date.

[0231Marine]

Hey poolee, those that have been in combat, don't want to be in any more fire fights...not the right thing to say on here. Nothing wrong with wanting to be in the front and all, but nobody ever wants to put rounds down range knowing that they're trying to take someones life.

I honestly pray that you never know that experience.

[TJR1070]

[QUOTE=LandsNGrooves;405349 I really want something towards the Front. I want atleast one firefight. [/QUOTE]

If you don't have anything intelligent to say DON"T SAY ANYTHING AT ALL!!!! That was one of the stupidest comments I've ever seen on this board. When you are a police officer will you want to get just one officer involved shooting? You need to grow up!

[TJKUSMC]

I have never heard of police angencies being weary of USMC MP's. Ive known a few MP's who have gotten public jobs as police officers pretty fast just for the fact that they were Marine Corps MP's. I'm infantry and I still plan on getting a job with the San Diego police department after my 4 years.

[Fubar5812]

i can tell you that whether you get CBRN or MP your going to HATE fort leonardwood,MO. CBRN,EEIC,Motor-T and MP's train there...i was there for 5 months and hated the place,boring as hell.

CBRN training is extremely hard. fail 1 test your on academic prohbation,fail another and your dropped from the course. you take alot of tests and have to score an 80% or better on every single one. your culmination to training is a LIVE NERVE GAS CHAMBER coated in VX gas,in which you (using your training and of course bio suit/mask) must decon a vehicle,a weapon and a radio without...well...dying.

i had quite a few CBRN friends while at leonardwood,they hated it,they where told that when they got to there units they would be teaching other Marines and units about bio/chemical agent attacks,safety,stuff like that they would be teaching but not actually handling any thing CBRN related.

as an Mp i can tell you,so far i am having alot of fun.i am currently at dog handler school after finishing MP school and can't wait to get to a unit. where not all garrison white cars and blue lights,there is a field aspect to what we do,as in convoy security/perimeter security/small unit action/ied detection/cordon and raids. you should do a little research about it before you listen to your recruiter or anyone else who doesn't hold the field.

[LandsNGrooves]

"I really want something towards the Front. I want atleast one firefight"



If you don't have anything intelligent to say DON"T SAY ANYTHING AT ALL!!!! That was one of the stupidest comments I've ever seen on this board. When you are a police officer will you want to get just one officer involved shooting? You need to grow up!


I think you misunderstood somehow. I didnt say "just" meaning only 1, I said "atleast" meaning,well just that.

[yellowwing]

CBRN can be lucrative in the civilian world. I just finsihed a site for an idustrial clean up company.

They clean black mold infested buildings or where the city sewer totally fraks up and burps 4 feet of raw sewage into a building.

Those biohazard clean up techs put on the suit and clean it up. Big bucks and wicked overtime.

[LandsNGrooves]

Hey poolee, those that have been in combat, don't want to be in any more fire fights...not the right thing to say on here. Nothing wrong with wanting to be in the front and all, but nobody ever wants to put rounds down range knowing that they're trying to take someones life.

I honestly pray that you never know that experience.


Thats why I didnt WANT to say that,but thats honestly what I think. What if I WANT to know that feeling of dropping the hammer on another human? The only way of knowing this is actually doing it. I can read all the books and such I want(http://www.warriorsciencegroup.com/), Do all the livefire simulation my wallet can handle, but thats all just hearsay at the moment of truth. I would rather that truth be known in the big sandbox then 10 years from now,when the glass breaks at 3am and Ive got a family to protect.

[yellowwing]

Thats why I didnt WANT to say that,but thats honestly what I think. What if I WANT to know that feeling of dropping the hammer on another human? The only way of knowing this is actually doing it. I can read all the books and such I want(http://www.warriorsciencegroup.com/), Do all the livefire simulation my wallet can handle, but thats all just hearsay at the moment of truth. I would rather that truth be known in the big sandbox then 10 years from now,when the glass breaks at 3am and Ive got a family to protect.
You are missing the point kid.

[LandsNGrooves]

CBRN can be lucrative in the civilian world. I just finsihed a site for an idustrial clean up company.

They clean black mold infested buildings or where the city sewer totally fraks up and burps 4 feet of raw sewage into a building.

Those biohazard clean up techs put on the suit and clean it up. Big bucks and wicked overtime.

Thank you for the insite Corporal. Before I signed up for the Marines, I was 1 1/2 threw a plumbing apprenticeship for a friend of the family, who owned a industrial plumping company. It was mostly new contruction,like AFB's and airports and such, but some days, I would have rather been doing way too many pushups, or a 7 mile hike. And that suit you talk of would have been welcomed:sick:.

[LandsNGrooves]

You are missing the point kid.

Sorry Corporal, Ill just stop.

[yellowwing]

Well just think of it from the other side of the coin. If you were walking down the street and you see a policemen (or anyone) with that look of "I want to kill someone!" in his eyes, That would be spooky weird!

[LandsNGrooves]

Well just think of it from the other side of the coin. If you were walking down the street and you see a policemen (or anyone) with that look of "I want to kill someone!" in his eyes, That would be spooky weird!

haha! Well I can ashure you that my eyes are normal looking blue, and i dont drive a big van or anything. I also havent grown up on video games. I had the original GameBoy.The big gray one.That was it.

In the civilian world,I hope I never have to kill anybody for anything. But Ive never had a problem with the topic.Some people try to make killing like its always horrible,no matter the scene. Ive never shared that view. Rapists belong dead,not in prison, eating meals that tax dollars pay for.

[LandsNGrooves]

even tho i didnt write it, this really sums up something in me.


"One Vietnam veteran, an old retired colonel, once said this to me: "Most of the people in our society are sheep. They are kind, gentle, productive creatures who can only hurt one another by accident." This is true. Remember, the murder rate is six per 100,000 per year, and the aggravated assault rate is four per 1,000 per year. What this means is that the vast majority of Americans are not inclined to hurt one another. Some estimates say that two million Americans are victims of violent crimes every year, a tragic, staggering number, perhaps an all-time record rate of violent crime. But there are almost 300 million Americans, which means that the odds of being a victim of violent crime is considerably less than one in a hundred on any given year. Furthermore, since many violent crimes are committed by repeat offenders, the actual number of violent citizens is considerably less than two million. Thus there is a paradox, and we must grasp both ends of the situation: We may well be in the most violent times in history, but violence is still remarkably rare. This is because most citizens are kind, decent people who are not capable of hurting each other, except by accident or under extreme provocation. They are sheep. I mean nothing negative by calling them sheep. To me it is like the pretty, blue robin's egg. Inside it is soft and gooey but someday it will grow into something wonderful. But the egg cannot survive without its hard blue shell. Police officers, soldiers, and other warriors are like that shell, and someday the civilization they protect will grow into something wonderful.? For now, though, they need warriors to protect them from the predators. "Then there are the wolves," the old war veteran said, "and the wolves feed on the sheep without mercy." Do you believe there are wolves out there who will feed on the flock without mercy? You better believe it. There are evil men in this world and they are capable of evil deeds. The moment you forget that or pretend it is not so, you become a sheep. There is no safety in denial. "Then there are sheepdogs," he went on, "and I'm a sheepdog. I live to protect the flock and confront the wolf." If you have no capacity for violence then you are a healthy productive citizen, a sheep. If you have a capacity for violence and no empathy for your fellow citizens, then you have defined an aggressive sociopath, a wolf. But what if you have a capacity for violence, and a deep love for your fellow citizens? What do you have then? A sheepdog, a warrior, someone who is walking the hero's path. Someone who can walk into the heart of darkness, into the universal human phobia, and walk out unscathed Let me expand on this old soldier's excellent model of the sheep, wolves, and sheepdogs. We know that the sheep live in denial, that is what makes them sheep. They do not want to believe that there is evil in the world. They can accept the fact that fires can happen, which is why they want fire extinguishers, fire sprinklers, fire alarms and fire exits throughout their kids' schools. But many of them are outraged at the idea of putting an armed police officer in their kid's school. Our children are thousands of times more likely to be killed or seriously injured by school violence than fire, but the sheep's only response to the possibility of violence is denial. The idea of someone coming to kill or harm their child is just too hard, and so they chose the path of denial. The sheep generally do not like the sheepdog. He looks a lot like the wolf. He has fangs and the capacity for violence. The difference, though, is that the sheepdog must not, can not and will not ever harm the sheep. Any sheep dog who intentionally harms the lowliest little lamb will be punished and removed. The world cannot work any other way, at least not in a representative democracy or a republic such as ours. Still, the sheepdog disturbs the sheep. He is a constant reminder that there are wolves in the land. They would prefer that he didn't tell them where to go, or give them traffic tickets, or stand at the ready in our airports in camouflage fatigues holding an M-16. The sheep would much rather have the sheepdog cash in his fangs, spray paint himself white, and go, "Baa." Until the wolf shows up. Then the entire flock tries desperately to hide behind one lonely sheepdog. The students, the victims, at Columbine High School were big, tough high school students, and under ordinary circumstances they would not have had the time of day for a police officer. They were not bad kids; they just had nothing to say to a cop. When the school was under attack, however, and SWAT teams were clearing the rooms and hallways, the officers had to physically peel those clinging, sobbing kids off of them. This is how the little lambs feel about their sheepdog when the wolf is at the door. Look at what happened after September 11, 2001 when the wolf pounded hard on the door. Remember how America, more than ever before, felt differently about their law enforcement officers and military personnel? Remember how many times you heard the word hero? Understand that there is nothing morally superior about being a sheepdog; it is just what you choose to be. Also understand that a sheepdog is a funny critter: He is always sniffing around out on the perimeter, checking the breeze, barking at things that go bump in the night, and yearning for a righteous battle. That is, the young sheepdogs yearn for a righteous battle. The old sheepdogs are a little older and wiser, but they move to the sound of the guns when needed right along with the young ones. Here is how the sheep and the sheepdog think differently. The sheep pretend the wolf will never come, but the sheepdog lives for that day. After the attacks on September 11, 2001, most of the sheep, that is, most citizens in America said, "Thank God I wasn't on one of those planes." The sheepdogs, the warriors, said, "Dear God, I wish I could have been on one of those planes. Maybe I could have made a difference." When you are truly transformed into a warrior and have truly invested yourself into warriorhood, you want to be there. You want to be able to make a difference. There is nothing morally superior about the sheepdog, the warrior, but he does have one real advantage. Only one. And that is that he is able to survive and thrive in an environment that destroys 98 percent of the population. There was research conducted a few years ago with individuals convicted of violent crimes. These cons were in prison for serious, predatory crimes of violence: assaults, murders and killing law enforcement officers. The vast majority said that they specifically targeted victims by body language: slumped walk, passive behavior and lack of awareness. They chose their victims like big cats do in Africa, when they select one out of the herd that is least able to protect itself. Some people may be destined to be sheep and others might be genetically primed to be wolves or sheepdogs. But I believe that most people can choose which one they want to be, and I'm proud to say that more and more Americans are choosing to become sheepdogs. Seven months after the attack on September 11, 2001, Todd Beamer was honored in his hometown of Cranbury, New Jersey. Todd, as you recall, was the man on Flight 93 over Pennsylvania who called on his cell phone to alert an operator from United Airlines about the hijacking. When he learned of the other three passenger planes that had been used as weapons, Todd dropped his phone and uttered the words, "Let's roll," which authorities believe was a signal to the other passengers to confront the terrorist hijackers. In one hour, a transformation occurred among the passengers - athletes, business people and parents. -- from sheep to sheepdogs and together they fought the wolves, ultimately saving an unknown number of lives on the ground. There is no safety for honest men except by believing all possible evil of evil men. - Edmund Burke Here is the point I like to emphasize, especially to the thousands of police officers and soldiers I speak to each year. In nature the sheep, real sheep, are born as sheep. Sheepdogs are born that way, and so are wolves. They didn't have a choice. But you are not a critter. As a human being, you can be whatever you want to be. It is a conscious, moral decision. If you want to be a sheep, then you can be a sheep and that is okay, but you must understand the price you pay. When the wolf comes, you and your loved ones are going to die if there is not a sheepdog there to protect you. If you want to be a wolf, you can be one, but the sheepdogs are going to hunt you down and you will never have rest, safety, trust or love. But if you want to be a sheepdog and walk the warrior's path, then you must make a conscious and moral decision every day to dedicate, equip and prepare yourself to thrive in that toxic, corrosive moment when the wolf comes knocking at the door. For example, many officers carry their weapons in church.? They are well concealed in ankle holsters, shoulder holsters or inside-the-belt holsters tucked into the small of their backs.? Anytime you go to some form of religious service, there is a very good chance that a police officer in your congregation is carrying. You will never know if there is such an individual in your place of worship, until the wolf appears to massacre you and your loved ones. I was training a group of police officers in Texas, and during the break, one officer asked his friend if he carried his weapon in church. The other cop replied, "I will never be caught without my gun in church." I asked why he felt so strongly about this, and he told me about a cop he knew who was at a church massacre in Ft. Worth, Texas in 1999. In that incident, a mentally deranged individual came into the church and opened fire, gunning down fourteen people. He said that officer believed he could have saved every life that day if he had been carrying his gun. His own son was shot, and all he could do was throw himself on the boy's body and wait to die. That cop looked me in the eye and said, "Do you have any idea how hard it would be to live with yourself after that?" Some individuals would be horrified if they knew this police officer was carrying a weapon in church. They might call him paranoid and would probably scorn him. Yet these same individuals would be enraged and would call for "heads to roll" if they found out that the airbags in their cars were defective, or that the fire extinguisher and fire sprinklers in their kids' school did not work. They can accept the fact that fires and traffic accidents can happen and that there must be safeguards against them. Their only response to the wolf, though, is denial, and all too often their response to the sheepdog is scorn and disdain. But the sheepdog quietly asks himself, "Do you have and idea how hard it would be to live with yourself if your loved ones attacked and killed, and you had to stand there helplessly because you were unprepared for that day?" It is denial that turns people into sheep. Sheep are psychologically destroyed by combat because their only defense is denial, which is counterproductive and destructive, resulting in fear, helplessness and horror when the wolf shows up. Denial kills you twice. It kills you once, at your moment of truth when you are not physically prepared: you didn't bring your gun, you didn't train. Your only defense was wishful thinking. Hope is not a strategy. Denial kills you a second time because even if you do physically survive, you are psychologically shattered by your fear helplessness and horror at your moment of truth. Gavin de Becker puts it like this in Fear Less, his superb post-9/11 book, which should be required reading for anyone trying to come to terms with our current world situation: "...denial can be seductive, but it has an insidious side effect. For all the peace of mind deniers think they get by saying it isn't so, the fall they take when faced with new violence is all the more unsettling." Denial is a save-now-pay-later scheme, a contract written entirely in small print, for in the long run, the denying person knows the truth on some level. And so the warrior must strive to confront denial in all aspects of his life, and prepare himself for the day when evil comes. If you are warrior who is legally authorized to carry a weapon and you step outside without that weapon, then you become a sheep, pretending that the bad man will not come today. No one can be "on" 24/7, for a lifetime. Everyone needs down time. But if you are authorized to carry a weapon, and you walk outside without it, just take a deep breath, and say this to yourself... "Baa." This business of being a sheep or a sheep dog is not a yes-no dichotomy. It is not an all-or-nothing, either-or choice. It is a matter of degrees, a continuum. On one end is an abject, head-in-the-sand-sheep and on the other end is the ultimate warrior. Few people exist completely on one end or the other. Most of us live somewhere in between. Since 9-11 almost everyone in America took a step up that continuum, away from denial. The sheep took a few steps toward accepting and appreciating their warriors, and the warriors started taking their job more seriously. The degree to which you move up that continuum, away from sheephood and denial, is the degree to which you and your loved ones will survive, physically and psychologically at your moment of truth. ".

[LandsNGrooves]

Sorry!

This pretty much sums up how i feel about things.


ON SHEEP, WOLVES, AND SHEEPDOGS

By LTC(RET) Dave Grossman, RANGER, Ph.D.,author of "On Killing."

Honor never grows old, and honor rejoices the heart of age. It does so
because honor is, finally, about defending those noble and worthy
things that deserve defending, even if it comes at a high cost. In our time, that
may mean social disapproval, public scorn, hardship, persecution, or as always,
even death itself. The question remains: What is worth defending? What is worth
dying for? What is worth living for? - William J. Bennett - in a lecture to the
United States Naval Academy November 24, 1997

One Vietnam veteran, an old retired colonel, once said this to me:
"Most of the people in our society are sheep. They are kind, gentle, productive
creatures who can only hurt one another by accident." This is true. Remember, the
murder rate is six per 100,000 per year, and the aggravated assault rate
is four per 1,000 per year. What this means is that the vast majority of Americans
are not inclined to hurt one another.

Some estimates say that two million Americans are victims of violent
crimes every year, a tragic, staggering number, perhaps an all-time record
rate of violent crime. But there are almost 300 million Americans, which
means that the odds of being a victim of violent crime is considerably less than one
in a hundred on any given year. Furthermore, since many violent crimes are
committed by repeat offenders, the actual number of violent citizens is considerably
less than two million.

Thus there is a paradox, and we must grasp both ends of the situation:
We may well be in the most violent times in history, but violence is still
remarkably rare. This is because most citizens are kind, decent people
who are not capable of hurting each other, except by accident or under extreme
provocation. They are sheep.

I mean nothing negative by calling them sheep. To me it is like the
pretty, blue robin's egg. Inside it is soft and gooey but someday it will grow
into something wonderful. But the egg cannot survive without its hard blue
shell. Police officers, soldiers, and other warriors are like that shell, and
someday the civilization they protect will grow into something wonderful.? For
now, though, they need warriors to protect them from the predators.

"Then there are the wolves," the old war veteran said, "and the wolves
feed on the sheep without mercy." Do you believe there are wolves out there
who will feed on the flock without mercy? You better believe it. There are evil
men in this world and they are capable of evil deeds. The moment you forget
that or pretend it is not so, you become a sheep. There is no safety in
denial.

"Then there are sheepdogs," he went on, "and I'm a sheepdog. I live to
protect the flock and confront the wolf."

If you have no capacity for violence then you are a healthy productive
citizen, a sheep. If you have a capacity for violence and no empathy
for your fellow citizens, then you have defined an aggressive sociopath, a wolf. But
what if you have a capacity for violence, and a deep love for your fellow
citizens?
What do you have then? A sheepdog, a warrior, someone who is walking
the hero's path. Someone who can walk into the heart of darkness, into the
universal human phobia, and walk out unscathed

Let me expand on this old soldier's excellent model of the sheep,
wolves, and sheepdogs. We know that the sheep live in denial, that is what makes
them sheep. They do not want to believe that there is evil in the
world. They can accept the fact that fires can happen, which is why they want fire
extinguishers, fire sprinklers, fire alarms and fire exits throughout their kids'
schools.

But many of them are outraged at the idea of putting an armed police
officer in their kid's school. Our children are thousands of times more likely
to be killed or seriously injured by school violence than fire, but the
sheep's only response to the possibility of violence is denial. The idea of someone
coming to kill or harm their child is just too hard, and so they chose the
path of denial.

The sheep generally do not like the sheepdog. He looks a lot like the
wolf. He has fangs and the capacity for violence. The difference, though, is
that the sheepdog must not, can not and will not ever harm the sheep. Any sheep
dog who intentionally harms the lowliest little lamb will be punished
and removed.
The world cannot work any other way, at least not in a representative
democracy or a republic such as ours.

Still, the sheepdog disturbs the sheep. He is a constant reminder that
there are wolves in the land. They would prefer that he didn't tell them
where to go, or give them traffic tickets, or stand at the ready in our
airports in camouflage fatigues holding an M-16. The sheep would much
rather have the sheepdog cash in his fangs, spray paint himself white, and go, "Baa."

Until the wolf shows up. Then the entire flock tries desperately to
hide behind one lonely sheepdog.

The students, the victims, at Columbine High School were big, tough
high school students, and under ordinary circumstances they would not
have had the time of day for a police officer. They were not bad kids; they just had
nothing to say to a cop. When the school was under attack, however, and SWAT
teams were clearing the rooms and hallways, the officers had to physically peel
those clinging, sobbing kids off of them. This is how the little lambs
feel about their sheepdog when the wolf is at the door.

Look at what happened after September 11, 2001 when the wolf pounded
hard on the door. Remember how America, more than ever before, felt
differently about their law enforcement officers and military personnel? Remember how
many times you heard the word hero?

Understand that there is nothing morally superior about being a
sheepdog; it is just what you choose to be. Also understand that a sheepdog is a
funny critter: He is always sniffing around out on the perimeter, checking the
breeze, barking at things that go bump in the night, and yearning for a
righteous battle. That is, the young sheepdogs yearn for a righteous
battle. The old sheepdogs are a little older and wiser, but they move
to the sound of the guns when needed right along with the young ones.

Here is how the sheep and the sheepdog think differently. The sheep
pretend the wolf will never come, but the sheepdog lives for that day. After
the attacks on September 11, 2001, most of the sheep, that is, most citizens in America
said, "Thank God I wasn't on one of those planes." The sheepdogs, the warriors, said,
"Dear God, I wish I could have been on one of those planes. Maybe I
could have made a difference." When you are truly transformed into a
warrior and have truly invested yourself into warriorhood, you want to be there.
You want to be able to make a difference.

There is nothing morally superior about the sheepdog, the warrior, but
he does have one real advantage. Only one. And that is that he is able
to survive and thrive in an environment that destroys 98 percent of the
population.
There was research conducted a few years ago with individuals
convicted of violent crimes. These cons were in prison for serious,
predatory crimes of violence: assaults, murders and killing law enforcement officers. The vast
majority said that they specifically targeted victims by body language: slumped
walk, passive behavior and lack of awareness. They chose their victims like
big cats do in Africa, when they select one out of the herd that is least able
to protect itself.

Some people may be destined to be sheep and others might be
genetically primed to be wolves or sheepdogs. But I believe that most
people can choose which one they want to be, and I'm proud to say that more and more Americans
are choosing to become sheepdogs.

Seven months after the attack on September 11, 2001, Todd Beamer was
honored in his hometown of Cranbury, New Jersey. Todd, as you recall, was the
man on Flight 93 over Pennsylvania who called on his cell phone to alert an
operator from United Airlines about the hijacking. When he learned of the other
three passenger planes that had been used as weapons, Todd dropped his phone
and uttered the words, "Let's roll," which authorities believe was a signal to
the other passengers to confront the terrorist hijackers. In one hour, a
transformation occurred among the passengers - athletes, business
people and parents. -- from sheep to sheepdogs and together they fought the wolves,
ultimately saving an unknown number of lives on the ground.

There is no safety for honest men except by believing all possible
evil of evil men. - Edmund Burke

Here is the point I like to emphasize, especially to the thousands of
police officers and soldiers I speak to each year. In nature the sheep, real
sheep, are born as sheep. Sheepdogs are born that way, and so are wolves.
They didn't have a choice. But you are not a critter. As a human being, you can be
whatever you want to be. It is a conscious, moral decision.

If you want to be a sheep, then you can be a sheep and that is okay,
but you must understand the price you pay. When the wolf comes, you and your
loved ones are going to die if there is not a sheepdog there to protect you. If
you want to be a wolf, you can be one, but the sheepdogs are going to hunt
you down and you will never have rest, safety, trust or love. But if you want
to be a sheepdog and walk the warrior's path, then you must make a conscious
and moral decision every day to dedicate, equip and prepare yourself to thrive
in that toxic, corrosive moment when the wolf comes knocking at the door.

For example, many officers carry their weapons in church.? They are
well concealed in ankle holsters, shoulder holsters or inside-the-belt
holsters tucked into the small of their backs.? Anytime you go to some form of
religious service, there is a very good chance that a police officer
in your congregation is carrying. You will never know if there is such an individual in your
place of worship, until the wolf appears to massacre you and your loved ones.

I was training a group of police officers in Texas, and during the
break, one officer asked his friend if he carried his weapon in church. The other
cop replied, "I will never be caught without my gun in church." I
asked why he felt so strongly about this, and he told me about a cop he knew who was at
a church massacre in Ft. Worth, Texas in 1999. In that incident, a mentally
deranged individual came into the church and opened fire, gunning down fourteen
people. He said that officer believed he could have saved every life that day
if he had been carrying his gun. His own son was shot, and all he could do
was throw himself on the boy's body and wait to die. That cop looked me in the
eye and said, "Do you have any idea how hard it would be to live with yourself
after that?"

Some individuals would be horrified if they knew this police officer
was carrying a weapon in church. They might call him paranoid and
would probably scorn him. Yet these same individuals would be enraged and would call for
"heads to roll" if they found out that the airbags in their cars were defective,
or that the fire extinguisher and fire sprinklers in their kids'
school did not work. They can accept the fact that fires and traffic accidents can
happen and that there must be safeguards against them.

Their only response to the wolf, though, is denial, and all too often
their response to the sheepdog is scorn and disdain. But the sheepdog
quietly asks himself, "Do you have and idea how hard it would be to live with
yourself if your loved ones attacked and killed, and you had to stand there
helplessly because you were unprepared for that day?"

It is denial that turns people into sheep. Sheep are psychologically
destroyed by combat because their only defense is denial, which is
counterproductive and destructive, resulting in fear, helplessness and
horror when the wolf shows up.

Denial kills you twice. It kills you once, at your moment of truth
when you are not physically prepared: you didn't bring your gun, you didn't
train. Your only defense was wishful thinking. Hope is not a strategy.
Denial kills you a second time because even if you do physically survive, you
are psychologically shattered by your fear helplessness and horror at
your moment of truth.

Gavin de Becker puts it like this in Fear Less, his superb post-9/11
book, which should be required reading for anyone trying to come to
terms with our current world situation: "...denial can be seductive, but it has an
insidious side effect. For all the peace of mind deniers think they get by saying it
isn't so, the fall they take when faced with new violence is all the more
unsettling."

Denial is a save-now-pay-later scheme, a contract written entirely in
small print, for in the long run, the denying person knows the truth on some
level.

And so the warrior must strive to confront denial in all aspects of
his life, and prepare himself for the day when evil comes.

If you are warrior who is legally authorized to carry a weapon and you
step outside without that weapon, then you become a sheep, pretending that
the bad man will not come today. No one can be "on" 24/7, for a lifetime.
Everyone needs down time. But if you are authorized to carry a weapon, and you
walk outside without it, just take a deep breath, and say this to
yourself...
"Baa."

This business of being a sheep or a sheep dog is not a yes-no
dichotomy. It is not an all-or-nothing, either-or choice. It is a matter of degrees,
a continuum. On one end is an abject, head-in-the-sand-sheep and on
the other end is the ultimate warrior. Few people exist completely on one end or the
other.
Most of us live somewhere in between. Since 9-11 almost everyone in America
took a step up that continuum, away from denial. The sheep took a few steps
toward accepting and appreciating their warriors, and the warriors started
taking their job more seriously. The degree to which you move up that
continuum, away from sheephood and denial, is the degree to which you and your loved
ones will survive, physically and psychologically at your moment of truth.

[0231Marine]

Thats why I didnt WANT to say that,but thats honestly what I think. What if I WANT to know that feeling of dropping the hammer on another human? The only way of knowing this is actually doing it. I can read all the books and such I want(http://www.warriorsciencegroup.com/), Do all the livefire simulation my wallet can handle, but thats all just hearsay at the moment of truth. I would rather that truth be known in the big sandbox then 10 years from now,when the glass breaks at 3am and Ive got a family to protect.

Look, I'm not one to usually do this but for the purpose of instruction I'm going to and I hope you take it for what it's worth and realize what you're saying. You say, "Dropping the hammer on somebody" like it's a friggin video game. Like there are no consequences to your actions.

I may only be an intelligence anlalyst which many people regard as a desk job and often times they're right. However, I was attached to a CI team for two years in Ramadi and I served with an infantry battalion S-2 for another deployment there. I have spent 28 months in Ramadi during which time it was the most dangerous city in the world and the Marines and Soldiers there were AVERAGING 45 attacks a day by the enemy. I have conducted patrols and raids, detained and interrogated insurgents, got in more fire fights than I can count, hit by two IED's, had an SVBIED detonate 20 yards from me, saw Marines get sent home in body bags (sometimes in multiple pieces) and I worked 18 hour days at a minimum. You ever tried to pick someone up and have their skin peel off in your hands or had the man that was just waving to you as you drove by now laying at your feet dead because he pulled out an RPG and fired it at you seconds after driving by?

Now with that being said, I am telling you without a doubt, 100% guaranteed, you do not want to experience what you're asking for. If there is a doubt in your mind of how you are going to react 10 years from now in some hypothetical situation, then buy an alarm system for your house. Just because you've seen combat does not in any way dictate how you would react to a home invasion. You need to seriously question yourself before posting on these forums in the future because what you just said was stupid and utterly offensive to those that have seen what you're asking for. We are Marines! We don't kill because it's fun or because we just want to get in a fire fight. We do it because if we don't, then it's us not coming home to our families instead of them and I'd be damned if I was going to let that happen. There isn't a day that goes by that I don't see the faces of those I've encountered in combat. Wonder if they had a son or daughter that is never going to know their father. That's the kind of **** that eats at you everyday and it's not something you want to know.

[TJR1070]

Cpl 0231 Well said, I would hope that ends anymore ridiculous comments.

Pfc Cwalling do me a favor and keep the second hand opinions about other MOS' to yourself. This isn't a place to guess at what might be correct, we are supposed to give informed experienced based opinions not conjecture. I am sure you are 100% correct about Ft. Lenordwood, but you really have no experience in the 5700 field and your comments are uniformed at best.

LandsandGrooves, stop telling us what your intentions with deadly force are we are not impressed. Start seriously thinking about what motivates you and where your interests are and maybe we can send you down a path that will be beneficial to you in the short and long term. Cpl. Yellowwing is correct there will always be jobs that are on the clean up end available but as with anything in this world you will start at the bottom in a very difficult and dirty field. Military experience is great but with any civilian job you will start at an entry level position, it will help you get a foot in the door but they aren't going to make you CEO anytime soon.

[yellowwing]

Amen Gents.