2nd Lts

[UMDStudent24]

&quot;August 13, 2004 <br />
2nd Lieutenants; Invaluable Assets <br />
<br />
<br />
by Master GySgt. Billy Stewart <br />
Special to HH News <br />
<br />
<br />
Imagine that you are hard at work in your shop or company area. The NCO in...

[RYDERKUR]

Am I suppose to fall to the ground prostrate for you and 2nd Lt's and be ashamed that I went through Recruit Training instead of a "harder" OCS? What was the point of this??? I would bet my life, quite literally, that a salty combat vet Lance knows a hell of a lot more about leadership or anything related to the Corps or combat than a boot Lt.

[UMDStudent24]

Just an article Lance Corporal. I'm not an officer, and meant no hostility. These are not my words, I just thought it was a good read.

[sparkie]

The article ignored the real training,,,,Just as it takes an NCO a year to 'grow up' a Private, it takes Staff/Gunny a year to 'grow up' a 2ndLT.

[amarine0311]

ryderkur, I usually agree with most of the comments you make on this blog but this last comment of yours has got to be sh*t ass stupid. I think he did Poolees a favor by posting this.

UMDstudent24, thanks for this article. I am sure this will help potential Officers to be more focused on their goal.

[UMDStudent24]

Thanks Sergeant.

I posted it because I've always seen a lot of hostility towards officers from the service members I've known: (My brother and his friends from DINFOS, for example; my sister's recruiters, practically every enlisted person I've ever met that my father worked with while he was active, etc.)
I've heard so many stories about the dumb-a$$ butter bar who thinks he is God's gift to the Marine Corps/Air Force/Army; as well as stories of the officer who thought he was better than everyone else or treated his subordinates poorly or etc.

There are always going to be people like that; particularly when they're in a position where power can be abused. I figured, not every officer can that terrible, and often times a lot of recollections become exaggerated. It seemed to me, from what I heard, that the malice for officers often stemmed from the belief that they have it easy; that they took the easy road while the enlisted took the hard path. So, I was curious how many of those people know what the officers went through to get where they are, and when I saw this article, I thought it was a good write-up about that particular path.

Again, I apologize to anyone the article offends.

[AL49BGN]

The article ignored the real training,,,,Just as it takes an NCO a year to 'grow up' a Private, it takes Staff/Gunny a year to 'grow up' a 2ndLT.
What is the difference between a PFC and a 2ndLT?The PFC has been promoted once.LOL

[RYDERKUR]

ryderkur, I usually agree with most of the comments you make on this blog but this last comment of yours has got to be sh*t ass stupid. I think he did Poolees a favor by posting this.

UMDstudent24, thanks for this article. I am sure this will help potential Officers to be more focused on their goal.

Sergeant, I apologize, but for some reason this article strikes the wrong chord with me. It may be informative, which it probably is, but the tone and style it is written, irks me. I understand it was written by an enlisted man also, but like I say, something about it just lit my fire. Anyways, if people can take something away from it than very well. Semper Fi...

[Aitrus]

UMDStudent24- Thank you for posting this. I'm hoping to try to get through NROTC myself so this was very encouraging.

With no disrespect intended towards any Marines on here, to be honest I've found much less encouraging materiel on here for Officer hopefuls than I have for enlisted men (which is of course no surprise, because the majority of people on here are enlisted). Not that I haven't found any at all, there's definitely still been some very helpful information on here. But after hearing an ex-Army friend of mine chew up 2nd Lt.'s and talk about all the negative things about them it's encouraging to hear something positive :).

-Aitrus

[Achped]

As Sgt Sparkie said, it ignores the real training. Yes they get more formal training, its harder physically and mentally. Our old XO was a mustang, and we were at the armory once, he is a 2nd LT. He said the training at OCS was "ridiculously harder than boot camp." But what you said was pretty off center.

[jinelson]

There was a time when I was the biggest basher of butter bars that there was. Until a butter bar who was in my estimation and my Marines minds the dumbest idiot ever to wear our uniform saved our lives. He was a boot S-4 Officer and me and my Marines addressed him as Skipper from then on. I rotated back home and I never saw him again but I have never forgotten 2nd Lt Earl Beaushane USMCR.

Jim

[MotherGoose]

Sergeant, I apologize, but for some reason this article strikes the wrong chord with me. It may be informative, which it probably is, but the tone and style it is written, irks me. I understand it was written by an enlisted man also, but like I say, something about it just lit my fire. Anyways, if people can take something away from it than very well. Semper Fi...

The article kind of irked me too, given that it's written by a Master Guns... he kind of gives off the vibe that he wants to bend over some butter bars and make love to em the rest of his life. I especially liked this quote "When a 2nd Lieutenant checks in everything becomes new again." In other words, he/she tries to reinvent the wheel and p***** everyone off in the process. If the LT is so "highly trained" why in the **** would he be bothering the Gunny for the next friggin year. So.... basically it takes 2 whole years to train an LT?

Sounds like the MGuns wants to brag about himself too. You're right, the tone is off, and he gives the perception that the enlisted really don't know/do/or train for S***. I guess the Enlisted can get bagged on every once in a while, lord knows Officers are always getting bagged on.

well there's my two cents... rant over!

[UMDStudent24]

UMDStudent24- Thank you for posting this. I'm hoping to try to get through NROTC myself so this was very encouraging.

With no disrespect intended towards any Marines on here, to be honest I've found much less encouraging materiel on here for Officer hopefuls than I have for enlisted men (which is of course no surprise, because the majority of people on here are enlisted). Not that I haven't found any at all, there's definitely still been some very helpful information on here. But after hearing an ex-Army friend of mine chew up 2nd Lt.'s and talk about all the negative things about them it's encouraging to hear something positive :).

-Aitrus



The information you're looking for can likely be found on MarineOCS.com.

[DOWORK1]

In my eyes they are really just overpaid Privates for the first year.

[jrhd97]

We had a butter bar take over our platoon. He didn't know the ropes ,or what and how LAR worked, but he tried hard to learn. He honestly listened to Gunny and the First Sgt. as well as his NCO's. Sure he made some boot mistakes, but who hasn't? He was turning out to better than the 1Lt he replaced. The man could pt the hell out of us.

[AL49BGN]

The article kind of irked me too, given that it's written by a Master Guns... he kind of gives off the vibe that he wants to bend over some butter bars and make love to em the rest of his life. I especially liked this quote "When a 2nd Lieutenant checks in everything becomes new again." In other words, he/she tries to reinvent the wheel and p***** everyone off in the process. If the LT is so "highly trained" why in the **** would he be bothering the Gunny for the next friggin year. So.... basically it takes 2 whole years to train an LT?

Sounds like the MGuns wants to brag about himself too. You're right, the tone is off, and he gives the perception that the enlisted really don't know/do/or train for S***. I guess the Enlisted can get bagged on every once in a while, lord knows Officers are always getting bagged on.

well there's my two cents... rant over!
It rubbed me the wrong way as well!

[AL49BGN]

We had a butter bar take over our platoon. He didn't know the ropes ,or what and how LAR worked, but he tried hard to learn. He honestly listened to Gunny and the First Sgt. as well as his NCO's. Sure he made some boot mistakes, but who hasn't? He was turning out to better than the 1Lt he replaced. The man could pt the hell out of us.
Everyone is different,I have no problem with any Butter Bar I am sure that most are very deserving of their position.My problem is with the manner the article was written.It seemed to me to be putting down the enlisted Marine in Order to advance the writers point.I am sure a few Butter bars would be irked if I wrote a piece putting their training down to advance a story about Recruit training.

[rvillac2]

Yeah, it's a stroke piece intended for people researching OCS. <br />
I'm sure we'll all admit, though. We'd rather have a Marine officer in charge of us than the product of any other branch.

[Mikewebe]

I'd say 80% of the 2nd LT's to check in at my unit were squared away and did as they were told by our CO, Don't mess with you NCO's and ask questions. The Platoon Sgt's were in charge. We did even...

[MotherGoose]

[quote=Mikewebe;392762]
Then we had the others, "I'm an Officer and you will respect me as such", um no I won't but I'll follow your tore up orders till you realize that you don't know crap, and even if you did know that you didn't know crap would be a start but you don't.

[quote]

LMAO! Almost spewed my coffee out over this one:marine:

[Isrowei]

You know, I almost hate to break up this love-fest of dumping on the 2ndLts....

But it's crap.

The article was written by one man's point of view who felt that much of the attitude toward new 2ndLts was undeserved. He did not, in fact, put down the enlisted experience in order to exalt the officers. If you think so, re-read it again.

OCS is physically more challenging than boot camp. That is an undisputed fact. It's also supposed to be that way. The mission of OCS is to screen and evaluate prospects for their ability to be a Marine Officer. The mission of recruit training is to create a basic Marine. Those are two totally different missions.

Recruit training is 13 weeks long to make a basically trained Marine.

OCS plus TBS is almost 10 months long to create a basically trained Marine Officer.

Those are facts.

You love to compare 2ndLts and "salty" LCpls or even Sergeants. It's an unfair comparison to begin with. It's like playing a card game where you've stacked the deck heavily against the player you don't like.

How about comparing that 1stLt to a "salty" LCpl. Or... how about comparing that combat seasoned Captain with 6-8 years to a similarly timed Sergeant. That comparison starts to look wackier and wackier. How about that Major with 10 years in against a SSgt with 10 years? Are you going to call him "boot" and less capable simply because he is an officer?

Get off the high horse long enough to realize that people live and die on their own actions and abilities. Sure there are arrogant Lts. But I'll point out 3 arrogant Sergeants and 10 sh*tbag LCpls for every bad Lt you find. Why? Because there are simply more of them. That's the percentage game you play. Yet... strangely.. we don't find whole threads focused about bagging on dumb LCpls or crappy SNCOs. I wonder why?

Officer and enlisted was never supposed to be an "us vs them" mentality. If you choose it to be so (and propogate it with comments such as what I've read so far), then the fault is YOURS. Not that 2ndLt who just showed up. You wouldn't think twice about mentoring a new PFC or LCpl who checks into a unit. In fact, that is the expectation for the NCOs and SNCOs of the unit. And if a buck Sergeant steps on deck, the GySgt knows he's going to be working with him, training him on what it means to be a SNCO and to be prepare him to be a SSgt someday. How much more important then is it to train that young Officer?

[AL49BGN]

You know, I almost hate to break up this love-fest of dumping on the 2ndLts....

But it's crap.

The article was written by one man's point of view who felt that much of the attitude toward new 2ndLts was undeserved. He did not, in fact, put down the enlisted experience in order to exalt the officers. If you think so, re-read it again.

OCS is physically more challenging than boot camp. That is an undisputed fact. It's also supposed to be that way. The mission of OCS is to screen and evaluate prospects for their ability to be a Marine Officer. The mission of recruit training is to create a basic Marine. Those are two totally different missions.

Recruit training is 13 weeks long to make a basically trained Marine.

OCS plus TBS is almost 10 months long to create a basically trained Marine Officer.

Those are facts.

You love to compare 2ndLts and "salty" LCpls or even Sergeants. It's an unfair comparison to begin with. It's like playing a card game where you've stacked the deck heavily against the player you don't like.

How about comparing that 1stLt to a "salty" LCpl. Or... how about comparing that combat seasoned Captain with 6-8 years to a similarly timed Sergeant. That comparison starts to look wackier and wackier. How about that Major with 10 years in against a SSgt with 10 years? Are you going to call him "boot" and less capable simply because he is an officer?

Get off the high horse long enough to realize that people live and die on their own actions and abilities. Sure there are arrogant Lts. But I'll point out 3 arrogant Sergeants and 10 ****bag LCpls for every bad Lt you find. Why? Because there are simply more of them. That's the percentage game you play.

Officer and enlisted was never supposed to be an "us vs them" mentality. If you choose it to be so (and propogate it with comments such as what I've read so far), then the fault is YOURS. Not that 2ndLt who just showed up. You wouldn't think twice about mentoring a new PFC or LCpl who checks into a unit. In fact, that is the expectation for the NCOs and SNCOs of the unit. And if a buck Sergeant steps on deck, the GySgt knows he's going to be working with him, training him on what it means to be a SNCO and to be prepare him to be a SSgt someday. How much more important then is it to train that young Officer?
I certainly do not mean to offend you in anyway,I cannot speak for OCS since I haven't been through it and it has been 22 years since I have been through Recruit Training.However my opinion of this article hasn't changed I still believe it is a puff piece for OCS and that it puts down Recruit Training.As far as breaking up our love fest of dumping on 2nd LT. I have read Marine after Marine Stick up for them.Despite being educated and Highly trained they are still inexperienced officers starting out in their new careers.But this only the opinion of a lowly E-6.

[Isrowei]

I certainly do not mean to offend you in anyway,I cannot speak for OCS since I haven't been through it and it has been 22 years since I have been through Recruit Training.However my opinion of this article hasn't changed I still believe it is a puff piece for OCS and that it puts down Recruit Training.As far as breaking up our love fest of dumping on 2nd LT. I have read Marine after Marine Stick up for them.Despite being educated and Highly trained they are still inexperienced officers starting out in their new careers.But this only the opinion of a lowly E-6.

I can't begin to tell you how many "puff" pieces on recruit training I've seen. In fact, that I've directly helped write and promulgate. We're in the middle of making a "puff" piece about recruit training for the French national television, and the BBC is planning to come next month for a similar piece.

This article did not say that recruit training wasn't valuable. It did not say it wasn't necessary. It did not even say it wasn't tough. What it said, is:

"To compare the mental and physical requirements of Marine Recruit Training and OCS would be like comparing a five-mile run to a marathon. OCS is clearly more challenging than boot camp will ever be. That might disappoint some enlisted Marines, but it is true."

That is unequivically true. Please refer to my earlier comment about the differing missions of recruit training and OCS. Recruit training should more accurately be compared to TBS. There, the comparison becomes even MORE disparate as an off-hand glance shows that recruit training is 13 weeks and TBS is 6 months.

We don't screen recruits at boot camp. Recruiters screen recruits in hometown, USA. There's a big difference and if you choose to not recognize it, you're being willfully ignorant.

And if this is how Marines stick up for each other, please spare me. I don't need spewed coffee and allegations of arrogance and incompetancy sticking up for me.

Consider if I said that 80% of all the SNCOs were ok. Then I clarified that "ok" to to be they were doormats for the Corporals. The rest I then labeled as arrogant and incompetant. Is that sticking up for them? I think not!

When does a platoon sergeant EVER run a platoon? Never. He advises the platoon commander, who may agree with him. A wise leader always listens and considers the council of his subordinate leaders. That's a truism. I've never heard a Company Commander tell his Platoon Commanders to "get out of the way of the NCOs." And I would be highly offended to any officer who told me such nonsense. I don't "get out of the way" for anyone. I do work with many NCOs and SNCOs and I work for many high level officers. The job of the officer is exactly to be "in the way" and to be a part of the chain of command.


I'm certainly not on a mission to offend any of you guys here, but fair is fair. Nowhere did the article mention that these 2ndLts have a vast weatlh of experience. They have training, which is entirely different from experience. But they will gain experience in short order. And part of that experience comes from working with good Marines who share their experience with them. Just the same as PFCs and LCpls.. who haven't been trained nearly as much, also benefit from the shared experiences of people who have had the time to garner such experience.

It seems to me that most of you read the article for what you thought it would say and not for it actually said. Perhaps those of you who did not like it, should go back and re-read it more carefully.

[MotherGoose]

"While each 2nd Lieutenant yearns to be technically proficient, they also know that developing Marines in other areas is paramount to achieving total success. We all could take a lesson from this. Their basic priorities should motivate and cause others to rededicate. I have yet to meet a 2nd Lieutenant that did not want to better the Corps through dedicated service.

As if 2nd Lt's are the ONLY ones who feel esprit de corps and dedication to their fellow Marines. What a load of marshmallows........ And there it is in bold, the arrogant tone of the article that irks me. He's basically saying we're all lost privates with no vision or committment, so hey Sergeant Majors, TAKE NOTICE, YOU CAN LEARN A LESSON HERE AND NOW! Did you know that you should be developing your Marines???????????
:thumbdown

@Isrowei, all ranting aside, I did go back and read the entire article again and although this article is very informative to the newcomer, in reality, Marines are going to see this article the most, so MGuns underlying tone doesn't set well with me, and this really isn't new information. I mean, really, who honestly thinks that a 2ndLt DOESN'T show up highly trained and motivated??? It's not that I don't like Officers, or that I like to bash on butterbars, most Officers I worked with were excellent. What irks me is the MGuns who wrote it. So I don't want to offend you Sir! I enjoy reading your posts as most of the time they are spot on.

[Isrowei]

Mothergoose, I can see where you're coming from. Really I can. I disagree with the "fresh and innovative" attitude the MGuns seems to think that all 2ndLts show up with. I don't see it as a indictment on other Marines (as if no one else has new fresh ideas), but ... I re-read it too and took my own advice.

I see where you're coming from.

I need to refill my coffee and I'll come back to this. Again, I'm not trying to get in a "us vs them" attitude and I sincerely apologize to anyone if it's coming off like that. This is a heated topic for me though since it wasn't too long ago that I wore butter bars and let me tell you how much prejudice I had to slice through to not be sidelined by both enlisted and officers alike.

Be back in a few :)

[MotherGoose]

I'm a little surprised at how much the article got me fired up in the first place, but it sure did for some reason. As far as me spewing my coffee, I just couldn't help picturing that dialogue going on and it just cracked me up, it was so over the top.
:sick:

[Quinbo]

I have a tale to tell...
After working hours I sat down with a new lieutenant. He had a mountain dew and I had a cup of coffee. We talked for hours. Out of all of our discussions we seemed to have come to terms. Later the 1st Sgt asked me did you actually tell that lad that he had been through one of the finest infantry and officer training organizations in the world? There was no fallacy in that statement 1st Sgt. He thinks there is! I said he should try to impart that knowlege on the troops without trying to be rambo. He seemed to have a problem with the term our platoon. Kind of like if the dog ****s on the floor it is her dog .... if it catches a frisbee it is my dog analogy.

Anyway I digress... I enjoyed the article.

[MyCorps]

When I first read this, I decided I will not respond to it. I knew this article would insite a strong debate. I think a lot of the Marines here are forgetting one important point not mentioned in the article. OCS is a screening process to weed out those not worthy to become Officers of Marines. The screening, basic training, physical evaulations and most every aspect of the candidates life while at OCS are ran by E-5, E-6 and E-7 Marines, most with combat experience. Do you really think these Marines
will let any slacker through?
Isrowei and I have the priviledge of both worlds (Mustangs). As a Sgt., I used to hack on 2nd Lt's until I became an officer and fully understood what one went through just to get their commission.
This debate will last longer than any of us. No one side is ever going to be correct.
We are all Marines. We are all Brothers
OORAH!!

[AL49BGN]

When I first read this, I decided I will not respond to it. I knew this article would insite a strong debate. I think a lot of the Marines here are forgetting one important point not mentioned in the article. OCS is a screening process to weed out those not worthy to become Officers of Marines. The screening, basic training, physical evaulations and most every aspect of the candidates life while at OCS are ran by E-5, E-6 and E-7 Marines, most with combat experience. Do you really think these Marines
will let any slacker through?
Isrowei and I have the priviledge of both worlds (Mustangs). As a Sgt., I used to hack on 2nd Lt's until I became an officer and fully understood what one went through just to get their commission.
This debate will last longer than any of us. No one side is ever going to be correct.
We are all Marines. We are all Brothers
OORAH!!
OORAH Cpt.,we are all brothers!!

[yellowwing]

Good ending! :usmc: