I Just Don't Get It

[Majesty305]

I don't understand where all the pacifism is coming from!
I don't get it. IT ****ES ME OFF!!!!! Marines, Poolees, Dudes.
There are people in this world that will never give any recognition to any of our fallen Marines, Sailors, Soilders, Airmen, Coasties. And i don't know why. People recognize a community college kid, but not an 18 year old Hero. There are many few who do. Many organizations, but why not the public? Why is it that we seem like some sort of war criminals?

[josephd]

Well what alot of people dont understand I think and maybe yourself also because you used the word "pacafism" is that just because we are Marines (i/we havent earned that title yet i know, just saying) doesn't mean we are war and violence advocaters, it just means when duty calls that involves both those things that we are their ready to take it head on and be proud to do so.

Most also do not get that we are volunterring to put our life on the line at a moments notice to save the very freedoms that those "most" enjoy

[Achped]

A Marine on here, excuse me if Im wrong, but I believe it was fistfu, said it perfectly.

No one has ever asked me what good I've done, only how many people I've killed.

Live with it man. Believe it or not there are people in this world who will let an armed man break into their house, rape their wife, kill their kids and then turn the gun at them and blow them away before ever advocating violence against another individual.

You can't reason with people like that. All you can do is become a warrior and let the sheep be sheep.

[JOConnell]

Its said it takes a wolf to catch a wolf... Of course the sheep group all the wolves into one sterotype, even if some of the wolves are serving the sheep.

[davblay]

A Marine on here, excuse me if Im wrong, but I believe it was fistfu, said it perfectly.

No one has ever asked me what good I've done, only how many people I've killed.

Live with it man. Believe it or not there are people in this world who will let an armed man break into their house, rape their wife, kill their kids and then turn the gun at them and blow them away before ever advocating violence against another individual.

You can't reason with people like that. All you can do is become a warrior and let the sheep be sheep.

Dam Matt, you really can post a serious post can't you? That was one of the best replies I have ever seen you post! I agree with you 100%.

Semper Fi L/Cpl Garrison!

Dave

[SlaveToTheCorps]

I'm not a Marine, but I know when I enlisted I didn't do it for the recognition from anyone. I didn't feel 'special' for doing what so many men & women did before I was born. I agree it's pretty screwy the way people take the freedoms we have for granted, when men began risking their lives for this country so many years ago. Unfortunately, that is the way people have been brought-up, to take advantage and not so much as care about the person beside them. My former high school has a wall that has pictures & stories about all the people who graduated who choose to serve our country. Kids walked by everyday and never looked in to see that some of them are still their age. It doesn’t click in their heads that if wasn’t for them risking their lives, who knows where we’d be.

You mentioned that the people serving are viewed as war criminals, are you truly shocked? When I was still in school, I had a teacher who hated anyone in the military; he was a war protester during Vietnam. He was my Honors US History & Honors US Government teacher, so I had him back to back classes. He assigned us a paper the first day of class to write about what made us proud to be US Citizens; I wrote about the veterans I met through my grandfather and the way I was proud of our US history. I failed that paper, horribly. It was like that all semester, writing papers & having to re-do them for failure to understand the assignment, for being argumentative during debates (still don’t get that) and talking back when he would express his views inappropriately. I was told that I didn’t know what I was talking about and had I lived through true conflict, I’d feel much different. Amazingly enough, after talking to my parents, my dean & the school superintendent (Retired Marine) I barely passed the class. It is the people like that who cause people to hate the military. It’s the teachers who speak badly on the past conflicts, it’s the school counselors who tell you you’re an idiot if you join instead of going to college, and it’s the people who need to have an opinion when they’ve never served a day in their life that causes the ignorance that is around the world now.

When you have someone like Natalie(?) from the Dixie Chicks speak-out against our President in another country, it reflects negatively. When you have teenagers who have read a book, or overheard a political opinion and adapt it as their own because they want to be different, it causes stupidity to be sprouted. All the same when you have US Troops overseas and you have those few that do ‘bad’ things, while under a microscope it makes all those people who hate them already scream ‘WE KNEW IT & THEY ARE ALL THE SAME!’.

I know when I was in the DEP we worked with a few of the local VFW’s & the Marine Corps League to volunteer our time to really talk to Veterans. It was by far the most humbling experience, speaking to men & woman whose lives were put on hold to serve in battles they didn’t necessarily agree with but served proudly regardless. My grandfather is becoming increasingly ill and he’s a WWII Veteran, I have been working with my mom to videotape him speaking about his experiences while serving in the Army Air Corps. It’s amazing, he’s my grandfather and I have always been proud of him, but to hear him speak about what he did is amazing.

This has gotten quite long-winded and for that I apologize, but may I ask you a question? What have you done, besides enlist, that makes you stand-out in a community that doesn’t publicly recognize it’s Veterans?

Respectfully,
Vanessa-Rose

[davblay]

I don't understand where all the pacifism is coming from!
I don't get it. IT ****ES ME OFF!!!!! Marines, Poolees, Dudes.
There are people in this world that will never give any recognition to any of our fallen Marines, Sailors, Soilders, Airmen, Coasties. And i don't know why. People recognize a community college kid, but not an 18 year old Hero. There are many few who do. Many organizations, but why not the public? Why is it that we seem like some sort of war criminals?

We can thank the media for a lot of the negative crap about our military! Anything good done is not news worthy! I think of the Flag raising on Iwo, when the three survivors came home to a HERO's WELCOME and were used to sell WAR BONDS! That was good NEWS for our country and the sold a lot of War Bonds.

But now a days, if a crime is committed, on the streets in any city, USA, the Media digs first to see if the suspect served in the military, then the healines read "FORMER MARINE KILLED SO AND SO"! But if that same Marine saves a dozen peoples lives during a disaster they just mention his name, maybe, not his military background....not news worthy!

There is an old saying, "Do a thousand goods and no one remembers, but make one mistake and everyone remembers"!

Dave

[MyCorps]

Very well stated Ahped.

[jinelson]

Dang Matt right on bro what a refreshing surprise.

Jim

[Chumley]

He may have dipped it into a smart woman and caught something good?
LCpl Achped Wolf is the future shepherd!
SFi
C

[NicholasITALY]

I want to join the Marines for many reasons, but I don't expect to be called hero from many people. I know some will call us heros, some will call us killers, etc. But I don't care. Yes it's good to hear THANK YOU FOR SERVING THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA. I would really appreciate that.
But I'll tell you what.. Marines don't argue about where they should or should not intervene. The mission is everything.
If I do something good to some people, I know that I and those people will remember me for what I've done. And I'll tell you what, I would like to help those people, but I would even like to kill them all for what they have done to the United States. "We're no better friend, no worse enemy" - " We are the Nation's first land of defense, but if you do something wrong to the Country, we're the last people you wanna see coming at your door".

Again I say I would really appreciate a thank you from the people. But if they don't it's ok, I don't care, I know that I did something good for the Country. Because they just talk, but who got the balls to serve the United States of America risking the life?
I will be proud to say I have served the United States of America as a U.S. Marine.
No matter what people say.
"There are only two kinds of people that understand Marines: Marines and the enemy. Everyone else has a second-hand opinion."
We do it because we feel to do it.


Devil Pup.
Nick.

[AL49BGN]

Great Post Achped!Its Like That In Civilian Life As Well.Do We Ever Hear Of The Heroism Of A Police Officer Or The Good Some School Teacher Did.All We Hear About Is How Some Officer Violated Some Scum**gs Rights Or How Some Teacher Slept With A Student.Bad News Sells And Then You Add A Some Political Bias And That Is What We Get.
When It Comes To Our Military It Is Even Worse Because These Reporters Have A Certain Political Agenda.How Can The NY Times Write Editorials About How We Need To Give Up The Fight And Pull Out While Reporting On The Front Page That The Surge Has Worked And That Iraq Is Gaining Some Normalcy.They Rather Write Stories Comparing Haditha To Mai Lai Without Even Having The Facts.That Is Why Their Readership And Subscriptions Are Down Big Time.

[Integrity57]

Gotta love the media!! Back around March or so there was an issue of the Marine Corps Times that tried to completely condemn a platoon of MARSOC Marines for "War Crimes" they had commited during their first operational deployment to Iraq, quoting unidentified Army officers who served as their chain of command in theatre, as saying they ignored direct orders and were "Cowboys." The MARINE CORPS TIMES printed this! And that's not the only scandal they've tried to capitalize on, and the Army, Navy, and Air Force times are just as guilty of trying to sensationalize such stories. It's disgraceful that publications that bear the name of our respective services would try to **** on us for the entire world to see. But **** 'em, they'll never know the pride of serving their nation and proudly wearing the uniform you've earned with blood, sweat and tears.

[NicholasITALY]

Gotta love the media!! Back around March or so there was an issue of the Marine Corps Times that tried to completely condemn a platoon of MARSOC Marines for "War Crimes" they had commited during their first operational deployment to Iraq, quoting unidentified Army officers who served as their chain of command in theatre, as saying they ignored direct orders and were "Cowboys." The MARINE CORPS TIMES printed this! And that's not the only scandal they've tried to capitalize on, and the Army, Navy, and Air Force times are just as guilty of trying to sensationalize such stories. It's disgraceful that publications that bear the name of our respective services would try to **** on us for the entire world to see. But **** 'em, they'll never know the pride of serving their nation and proudly wearing the uniform you've earned with blood, sweat and tears.
Well said Sailor! :iwo:

[JoeD]

Gotta love the media!! Back around March or so there was an issue of the Marine Corps Times that tried to completely condemn a platoon of MARSOC Marines for "War Crimes" they had commited during their first operational deployment to Iraq, quoting unidentified Army officers who served as their chain of command in theatre, as saying they ignored direct orders and were "Cowboys." The MARINE CORPS TIMES printed this! And that's not the only scandal they've tried to capitalize on, and the Army, Navy, and Air Force times are just as guilty of trying to sensationalize such stories. It's disgraceful that publications that bear the name of our respective services would try to **** on us for the entire world to see. But **** 'em, they'll never know the pride of serving their nation and proudly wearing the uniform you've earned with blood, sweat and tears.

I thought this happened in Afganhistan?

[Rains]

I am joining not to get recognision from society, but to serve my country. my thoughts are.. the majority of people will never understand this, they will never appreciate what we do(or will do in my case) so dont even bother what they think, just serve to the best of your ability no matter who recognises what you are doing and know in your heart that you are protecting those people and the freedom they take for granted even if they dont care.

Just my two cents.

[Integrity57]

You may be right Joe, but it doesn't really matter where it happened, what matters is that a "Military" media entity still tried to disgrace the men of that platoon with complete bias for the whole nation to see.

[HABU]

i served for eight years myself and i never cared what people thought.... being in the service wasn't very popular back then and so what.... i was just another jarhead. we didn't have all of the flag waving that we have now.... everyones' a hero now it seems... i just liked the corps.... a good marine doesn't want war or killing, but he's there in case it's ever upon us. a good marine fights to end wars and killing. we are the body armor of a nation... it's never about us.

[Marine84]

He may have dipped it into a smart woman and caught something good?
LCpl Achped Wolf is the future shepherd!
SFi
C

It was Eve - HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

[Majesty305]

This has gotten quite long-winded and for that I apologize, but may I ask you a question? What have you done, besides enlist, that makes you stand-out in a community that doesn’t publicly recognize it’s Veterans?

Respectfully,
Vanessa-Rose

Its not that i enlisted to stand-out. I enlisted to be part of the best.
I'm not doing it for recognition or what not. What i'm getting at is that why do people look down on us. Why does everyone think so low of the people that enlist, and then think so wrong of our vets. I know the media plays a key role but why are some people ignorant?

[josephd]

is Miami or your area liberal (lefty democrat) or conservative (rightwing republican)?

without getting into a political debate this could have alot to do with it. where i live (Phoenix, AZ) and where I am from (Minneapolis, MN) are pretty strong republican areas and very strongly support military personnel, on the other hand a few friends of mine are from Central California area which is very liberal and they basically look down on anyone in the military (Berkeley area for example)

[Majesty305]

is Miami or your area liberal (lefty democrat) or conservative (rightwing republican)?

without getting into a political debate this could have alot to do with it. where i live (Phoenix, AZ) and where I am from (Minneapolis, MN) are pretty strong republican areas and very strongly support military personnel, on the other hand a few friends of mine are from Central California area which is very liberal and they basically look down on anyone in the military (Berkeley area for example)


Miami is a political wreck being honest with you. There are to many ignorant immigrants that believe the government is out to get them.
Its rare to see anyone that supports the military. It sucks that alot of people are like this.

[TSULLI]

I never really wanted to join to be a hero..... I am joining to be a Marine.

[Majesty305]

I never really wanted to join to be a hero..... I am joining to be a Marine.

This thread was never about becoming a hero or to be recognized. I jst wanted to know or understand why people see us so differently.

[Aitrus]

Hi,

I haven't really posted on here at all. I'm just a 17 year old wannabe who's hoping to get into NROTC.

As to why people act the way they do towards our heroes serving overseas... Well, I guess they're just ignorant. I guess you could blame a lot of it on the media. The media loves to report "27 US soldiers killed this month", or "15 Iraqi civilians killed", but they won't report on the thousands of insurgents being killed. They want to make it sound like we're losing, when, in fact, we're not.

People complain about "4,000 soldiers killed in Iraq". Well, actually, that's not true. We've lost about 4,000 in both Afghanistan and Iraq combined. With absolutely no disrespect intended towards our servicemen here, please don't take this the wrong way, but that's nothing. We lost more than 6 times that many on Iwo Jima. We were losing that by the hour at the Battle of the Bulge. For the amount we've gained from those losses, (toppling two evil governments, seriously damaging Al-Qaida and other terrorist organizations, protecting our freedom and liberty here in America) I believe most servicemen and women would tell you those losses are well worth it. Yes, it's tragic when a serviceman dies (whether he be a Marine, in the Army, Navy, Airforce, or Coastguard) and I mourn with the families who lose their loved ones. A very good friend of mine named Robert Taylor died in Marine Boot Camp. I know what it's like to lose someone who's in the military. But, those I believe that those who fall would have told you that they were more than willing to die for their country. They knew the risks they were putting themselves into, they knew the price they may have had to pay. But they were willing to do it to keep America safe.

I apologize for rambling so much, I hope my post kind of made sense. I'm sorry if I didn't really add anything to the discussion. But what I want to say most of all is this:
Marines- Not all of us are fooled. There are many of us who realize the sacrifices that you've made and are still making. We support you fully and believe that what you are doing is right. God bless y'all.

-Brendan

[NicholasITALY]

This thread was never about becoming a hero or to be recognized. I jst wanted to know or understand why people see us so differently.
Because for them.. the Marines are JUST KILLERS.
That's thanks to the media.. only who knows Marines know that we are not just killers.

[TSULLI]

This thread was never about becoming a hero or to be recognized. I jst wanted to know or understand why people see us so differently.

Sorry I must have read it wrong or something... I don't know how that happened. Haha.

[TSULLI]

i served for eight years myself and i never cared what people thought.... being in the service wasn't very popular back then and so what.... i was just another jarhead. we didn't have all of the flag waving that we have now.... everyones' a hero now it seems... i just liked the corps.... a good marine doesn't want war or killing, but he's there in case it's ever upon us. a good marine fights to end wars and killing. we are the body armor of a nation... it's never about us.

Well said Sergeant!!!

[Fubar5812]

theres this Marine corps author (can't recall his name) who wrote this article about this subject,my heavy read it too us on our last day of bootcamp.it put people into 3 categories,wolf,sheep, and sheep dog.

the wolf seeks too kill,too maim,too cause as much harm as he can too the sheep,for they are weak and delicious.

the sheep are peaceful,not weak per say,just ignorant..they live there lives thinking "it won't happen too me" and leave the fighting too others.they don't want the blood on there hands and violence is only acceptable in media,not on there behalf.

then there is us.


the sheep dogs.we circle the flock,ever vigilant, head on a swivel always looking out for the wolf.we do it for a sense of duty,a sense of purpose too something greater than us. we aren't recongized all the time,rarely appreciated it,and sometimes even scorned,because what we do is an unpleasant thing,but a necessary thing.we will continue too do our duty and protect the sheep from the wolves because they cannot do it themselves.

so ask yourself...am i a sheep? a sheep dog? or a wolf?

[Zulu 36]

theres this Marine corps author (can't recall his name) who wrote this article about this subject,my heavy read it too us on our last day of bootcamp.it put people into 3 categories,wolf,sheep, and sheep dog.



Sorry, not written by a Marine. You're thinking of LtCol David Grossman, who is a retired US Army officer. All still true and accurate however.

[Echo_Four_Bravo]

Since it came up...


ON SHEEP, WOLVES, AND SHEEPDOGS
By LTC(RET) Dave Grossman, RANGER, Ph.D.,author of "On Killing."

Honor never grows old, and honor rejoices the heart of age. It does so
because honor is, finally, about defending those noble and worthy
things that deserve defending, even if it comes at a high cost. In our time, that
may mean social disapproval, public scorn, hardship, persecution, or as always,
even death itself. The question remains: What is worth defending? What is worth
dying for? What is worth living for? - William J. Bennett - in a lecture to the
United States Naval Academy November 24, 1997

One Vietnam veteran, an old retired colonel, once said this to me:
"Most of the people in our society are sheep. They are kind, gentle, productive
creatures who can only hurt one another by accident." This is true. Remember, the
murder rate is six per 100,000 per year, and the aggravated assault rate
is four per 1,000 per year. What this means is that the vast majority of Americans
are not inclined to hurt one another.

Some estimates say that two million Americans are victims of violent
crimes every year, a tragic, staggering number, perhaps an all-time record
rate of violent crime. But there are almost 300 million Americans, which
means that the odds of being a victim of violent crime is considerably less than one
in a hundred on any given year. Furthermore, since many violent crimes are
committed by repeat offenders, the actual number of violent citizens is considerably
less than two million.

Thus there is a paradox, and we must grasp both ends of the situation:
We may well be in the most violent times in history, but violence is still
remarkably rare. This is because most citizens are kind, decent people
who are not capable of hurting each other, except by accident or under extreme
provocation. They are sheep.

I mean nothing negative by calling them sheep. To me it is like the
pretty, blue robin's egg. Inside it is soft and gooey but someday it will grow
into something wonderful. But the egg cannot survive without its hard blue
shell. Police officers, soldiers, and other warriors are like that shell, and
someday the civilization they protect will grow into something wonderful.? For
now, though, they need warriors to protect them from the predators.

"Then there are the wolves," the old war veteran said, "and the wolves
feed on the sheep without mercy." Do you believe there are wolves out there
who will feed on the flock without mercy? You better believe it. There are evil
men in this world and they are capable of evil deeds. The moment you forget
that or pretend it is not so, you become a sheep. There is no safety in
denial.

"Then there are sheepdogs," he went on, "and I'm a sheepdog. I live to
protect the flock and confront the wolf."

If you have no capacity for violence then you are a healthy productive
citizen, a sheep. If you have a capacity for violence and no empathy
for your fellow citizens, then you have defined an aggressive sociopath, a wolf. But
what if you have a capacity for violence, and a deep love for your fellow
citizens?
What do you have then? A sheepdog, a warrior, someone who is walking
the hero's path. Someone who can walk into the heart of darkness, into the
universal human phobia, and walk out unscathed

Let me expand on this old soldier's excellent model of the sheep,
wolves, and sheepdogs. We know that the sheep live in denial, that is what makes
them sheep. They do not want to believe that there is evil in the
world. They can accept the fact that fires can happen, which is why they want fire
extinguishers, fire sprinklers, fire alarms and fire exits throughout their kids'
schools.

But many of them are outraged at the idea of putting an armed police
officer in their kid's school. Our children are thousands of times more likely
to be killed or seriously injured by school violence than fire, but the
sheep's only response to the possibility of violence is denial. The idea of someone
coming to kill or harm their child is just too hard, and so they chose the
path of denial.

The sheep generally do not like the sheepdog. He looks a lot like the
wolf. He has fangs and the capacity for violence. The difference, though, is
that the sheepdog must not, can not and will not ever harm the sheep. Any sheep
dog who intentionally harms the lowliest little lamb will be punished
and removed.
The world cannot work any other way, at least not in a representative
democracy or a republic such as ours.

Still, the sheepdog disturbs the sheep. He is a constant reminder that
there are wolves in the land. They would prefer that he didn't tell them
where to go, or give them traffic tickets, or stand at the ready in our
airports in camouflage fatigues holding an M-16. The sheep would much
rather have the sheepdog cash in his fangs, spray paint himself white, and go, "Baa."

Until the wolf shows up. Then the entire flock tries desperately to
hide behind one lonely sheepdog.

The students, the victims, at Columbine High School were big, tough
high school students, and under ordinary circumstances they would not
have had the time of day for a police officer. They were not bad kids; they just had
nothing to say to a cop. When the school was under attack, however, and SWAT
teams were clearing the rooms and hallways, the officers had to physically peel
those clinging, sobbing kids off of them. This is how the little lambs
feel about their sheepdog when the wolf is at the door.

Look at what happened after September 11, 2001 when the wolf pounded
hard on the door. Remember how America, more than ever before, felt
differently about their law enforcement officers and military personnel? Remember how
many times you heard the word hero?

Understand that there is nothing morally superior about being a
sheepdog; it is just what you choose to be. Also understand that a sheepdog is a
funny critter: He is always sniffing around out on the perimeter, checking the
breeze, barking at things that go bump in the night, and yearning for a
righteous battle. That is, the young sheepdogs yearn for a righteous
battle. The old sheepdogs are a little older and wiser, but they move
to the sound of the guns when needed right along with the young ones.

Here is how the sheep and the sheepdog think differently. The sheep
pretend the wolf will never come, but the sheepdog lives for that day. After
the attacks on September 11, 2001, most of the sheep, that is, most citizens in America
said, "Thank God I wasn't on one of those planes." The sheepdogs, the warriors, said,
"Dear God, I wish I could have been on one of those planes. Maybe I
could have made a difference." When you are truly transformed into a
warrior and have truly invested yourself into warriorhood, you want to be there.
You want to be able to make a difference.

There is nothing morally superior about the sheepdog, the warrior, but
he does have one real advantage. Only one. And that is that he is able
to survive and thrive in an environment that destroys 98 percent of the
population.
There was research conducted a few years ago with individuals
convicted of violent crimes. These cons were in prison for serious,
predatory crimes of violence: assaults, murders and killing law enforcement officers. The vast
majority said that they specifically targeted victims by body language: slumped
walk, passive behavior and lack of awareness. They chose their victims like
big cats do in Africa, when they select one out of the herd that is least able
to protect itself.

Some people may be destined to be sheep and others might be
genetically primed to be wolves or sheepdogs. But I believe that most
people can choose which one they want to be, and I'm proud to say that more and more Americans
are choosing to become sheepdogs.

Seven months after the attack on September 11, 2001, Todd Beamer was
honored in his hometown of Cranbury, New Jersey. Todd, as you recall, was the
man on Flight 93 over Pennsylvania who called on his cell phone to alert an
operator from United Airlines about the hijacking. When he learned of the other
three passenger planes that had been used as weapons, Todd dropped his phone
and uttered the words, "Let's roll," which authorities believe was a signal to
the other passengers to confront the terrorist hijackers. In one hour, a
transformation occurred among the passengers - athletes, business
people and parents. -- from sheep to sheepdogs and together they fought the wolves,
ultimately saving an unknown number of lives on the ground.

There is no safety for honest men except by believing all possible
evil of evil men. - Edmund Burke

Here is the point I like to emphasize, especially to the thousands of
police officers and soldiers I speak to each year. In nature the sheep, real
sheep, are born as sheep. Sheepdogs are born that way, and so are wolves.
They didn't have a choice. But you are not a critter. As a human being, you can be
whatever you want to be. It is a conscious, moral decision.

If you want to be a sheep, then you can be a sheep and that is okay,
but you must understand the price you pay. When the wolf comes, you and your
loved ones are going to die if there is not a sheepdog there to protect you. If
you want to be a wolf, you can be one, but the sheepdogs are going to hunt
you down and you will never have rest, safety, trust or love. But if you want
to be a sheepdog and walk the warrior's path, then you must make a conscious
and moral decision every day to dedicate, equip and prepare yourself to thrive
in that toxic, corrosive moment when the wolf comes knocking at the door.

For example, many officers carry their weapons in church.? They are
well concealed in ankle holsters, shoulder holsters or inside-the-belt
holsters tucked into the small of their backs.? Anytime you go to some form of
religious service, there is a very good chance that a police officer
in your congregation is carrying. You will never know if there is such an individual in your
place of worship, until the wolf appears to massacre you and your loved ones.

I was training a group of police officers in Texas, and during the
break, one officer asked his friend if he carried his weapon in church. The other
cop replied, "I will never be caught without my gun in church." I
asked why he felt so strongly about this, and he told me about a cop he knew who was at
a church massacre in Ft. Worth, Texas in 1999. In that incident, a mentally
deranged individual came into the church and opened fire, gunning down fourteen
people. He said that officer believed he could have saved every life that day
if he had been carrying his gun. His own son was shot, and all he could do
was throw himself on the boy's body and wait to die. That cop looked me in the
eye and said, "Do you have any idea how hard it would be to live with yourself
after that?"

Some individuals would be horrified if they knew this police officer
was carrying a weapon in church. They might call him paranoid and
would probably scorn him. Yet these same individuals would be enraged and would call for
"heads to roll" if they found out that the airbags in their cars were defective,
or that the fire extinguisher and fire sprinklers in their kids'
school did not work. They can accept the fact that fires and traffic accidents can
happen and that there must be safeguards against them.

Their only response to the wolf, though, is denial, and all too often
their response to the sheepdog is scorn and disdain. But the sheepdog
quietly asks himself, "Do you have and idea how hard it would be to live with
yourself if your loved ones attacked and killed, and you had to stand there
helplessly because you were unprepared for that day?"

It is denial that turns people into sheep. Sheep are psychologically
destroyed by combat because their only defense is denial, which is
counterproductive and destructive, resulting in fear, helplessness and
horror when the wolf shows up.

Denial kills you twice. It kills you once, at your moment of truth
when you are not physically prepared: you didn't bring your gun, you didn't
train. Your only defense was wishful thinking. Hope is not a strategy.
Denial kills you a second time because even if you do physically survive, you
are psychologically shattered by your fear helplessness and horror at
your moment of truth.

Gavin de Becker puts it like this in Fear Less, his superb post-9/11
book, which should be required reading for anyone trying to come to
terms with our current world situation: "...denial can be seductive, but it has an
insidious side effect. For all the peace of mind deniers think they get by saying it
isn't so, the fall they take when faced with new violence is all the more
unsettling."

Denial is a save-now-pay-later scheme, a contract written entirely in
small print, for in the long run, the denying person knows the truth on some
level.

And so the warrior must strive to confront denial in all aspects of
his life, and prepare himself for the day when evil comes.

If you are warrior who is legally authorized to carry a weapon and you
step outside without that weapon, then you become a sheep, pretending that
the bad man will not come today. No one can be "on" 24/7, for a lifetime.
Everyone needs down time. But if you are authorized to carry a weapon, and you
walk outside without it, just take a deep breath, and say this to
yourself...
"Baa."

This business of being a sheep or a sheep dog is not a yes-no
dichotomy. It is not an all-or-nothing, either-or choice. It is a matter of degrees,
a continuum. On one end is an abject, head-in-the-sand-sheep and on
the other end is the ultimate warrior. Few people exist completely on one end or the
other.
Most of us live somewhere in between. Since 9-11 almost everyone in America
took a step up that continuum, away from denial. The sheep took a few steps
toward accepting and appreciating their warriors, and the warriors started
taking their job more seriously. The degree to which you move up that
continuum, away from sheephood and denial, is the degree to which you and your loved
ones will survive, physically and psychologically at your moment of truth.

[Majesty305]

Awesome Sh*T Corporal!
That made me realize alot more!

[Aitrus]

Sir- Thank you very much for posting that. I found it very encouraging.

-Brendan

[Zulu 36]

That's the article I was thinking of by LtCol Grossman. Thanks E4B. <br />
<br />
For all of you wanna-be sheepdogs, I recommend all of Dave Grossman's books (On Killing; On Combat; and Teaching Our Children to...

[Aitrus]

Sir- Thank you for recommending those books. I'll definitely check them out. <br />
<br />
-Brendan

[Mikewebe]

Ahh the Media, ever noticed when a guy goes out and shoots some folks he is Identified as a former Marine, never a Sailor never an Airman etc...

[Fubar5812]

that would be the one i was referring too E4B,nice find.

[Chumley]

Great read E4B! Thank you!
SFi
C

[FutureBootLouie]

I don't understand where all the pacifism is coming from!
I don't get it. IT ****ES ME OFF!!!!! Marines, Poolees, Dudes.
There are people in this world that will never give any recognition to any of our fallen Marines, Sailors, Soilders, Airmen, Coasties. And i don't know why. People recognize a community college kid, but not an 18 year old Hero. There are many few who do. Many organizations, but why not the public? Why is it that we seem like some sort of war criminals?


What don't you understand?

Peace is a good thing

War is the most vile, disgusting and evil thing human beings can do to another.

We're willing to fight not because it's cool or because we seek recognition, but only because there are evil men who are more than willing to do harm to those who cannot defend themselves and sadly sometimes the only answer is violence.

Its ok bro, your period of motardedness will pass.

And for those of you who have never been to or lived in another country, our country has one of the most military friendly societies I've ever seen in the world.

[FutureBootLouie]

is Miami or your area liberal (lefty democrat) or conservative (rightwing republican)?

without getting into a political debate this could have alot to do with it. where i live (Phoenix, AZ) and where I am from (Minneapolis, MN) are pretty strong republican areas and very strongly support military personnel, on the other hand a few friends of mine are from Central California area which is very liberal and they basically look down on anyone in the military (Berkeley area for example)


You're biased. Liberal does not mean "military hating" and conservative does not trasnlate to "military loving"

Guess what? I'm liberal leaning and I serve. I love America and everything we stand for. I love the United States military and the Marine Corps. I also have liberal leaning viewpoints.

I'll also name you two Senators that I know of (and theres probably much more) that are democrats -

Senator Daniel Inouye (D-HI) - World War 2 Congressional Medal of Honor Recipient

Senator Jim Webb (D-VA) - Navy Cross Recipient in Vietnam and former Secretary of the Navy

please go and tell them being a liberal or a democrat means they look down on military personnel, please try.

[gobuffs10]

People complain about "4,000 soldiers killed in Iraq". Well, actually, that's not true. We've lost about 4,000 in both Afghanistan Iraq combined.
-Brendan

Actually, it is true. 4,047 have been killed IN Iraq, out of 4,150 killed in OIF total. We have lost 582 in Afghanistan. My source is USA Today.

Not saying the reporting done is right in terms of info presented, but it is accurate.

I've met people who say that they laugh every time a serviceman gets killed. Sad, but true. They fail (or refuse) to make the distinction between those fighting and those who sent them there.

I guess for my family and friends, it's not so much that they refuse to honor these guys, but they don't want me to become one.

[Aitrus]

http://www.leatherneck.com/forums/images_ln/misc/images_ln/spacer.gif


Actually, it is true. 4,047 have been killed IN Iraq, out of 4,150 killed in OIF total. We have lost 582 in Afghanistan. My source is USA Today.

Ah, sorry about that. The last time I checked it must have been a while ago. Thanks for correcting me.

[Iseethelight]

Ahh the Media, ever noticed when a guy goes out and shoots some folks he is Identified as a former Marine, never a Sailor never an Airman etc...

Negative. The DC/Beltway sniper was a Soldier, and not even an Infantryman let alone a qualified sniper.

[gobuffs10]

Ah, sorry about that. The last time I checked it must have been a while ago. Thanks for correcting me.

Hey man no need to be sorry, just letting you know. I didn't mean to come off as a dick. My bad.

[FutureBootLouie]

You pray for peace but prepare for war.

Its like martial arts. You practice martial arts to defend yourself in dire situations. The one who practices martial arts so he can walk around like he's a badass pushing people around is a thug, and he will get his retribution in due time.

Don't have that attitude.

We're Marines, its our profession. We're no better than the average American who chooses teaching, medicine, law or firefighting as their profession. We all serve our country in our own way.

Don't ever hold the holier than thou attitude like we deserve some sort of accolades for our service. Doing so is not honorable.

[Aitrus]

Hey man no need to be sorry, just letting you know. I didn't mean to come off as a dick. My bad.

You didn't come across that way at all. I'm glad someone corrected me! I don't want to be giving off false information :).

[Wyoming]

A Marine on here, excuse me if Im wrong, but I believe it was fistfu, said it perfectly.

No one has ever asked me what good I've done, only how many people I've killed.

Live with it man. Believe it or not there are people in this world who will let an armed man break into their house, rape their wife, kill their kids and then turn the gun at them and blow them away before ever advocating violence against another individual.

You can't reason with people like that. All you can do is become a warrior and let the sheep be sheep.

... and a true Marine isn't keeping score and bouncing the numbers off the walls in the VFW.

It would be interesting, for note, to know just how many Marines can say they actually killed. I daresay, in truth, the number is much lower than you expect, but in machoism, the number is much higher.

It should be noted that I do not condone the scoresheet to be posted in the poolee forum. In fact, I am not condoning a scoresheet.


Methinks, iffen those raggedy camo wearing posers at The Wall were real and to be believed, there wouldn't be a Viet Cong left on the face of the Earth.

[Wyoming]

You pray for peace but prepare for war.

Its like martial arts. You practice martial arts to defend yourself in dire situations. The one who practices martial arts so he can walk around like he's a badass pushing people around is a thug, and he will get his retribution in due time.

Don't have that attitude.

We're Marines, its our profession. We're no better than the average American who chooses teaching, medicine, law or firefighting as their profession. We all serve our country in our own way.

Don't ever hold the holier than thou attitude like we deserve some sort of accolades for our service. Doing so is not honorable.

FBL, with permission, I am going to use your post. It makes a ton of sense.

[BR34]

Hey man no need to be sorry, just letting you know. I didn't mean to come off as a dick. My bad.

Don't apologize when correcting someone.

[FutureBootLouie]

FBL, with permission, I am going to use your post. It makes a ton of sense.


don't need my permission. It ain't copyrighted :-)