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flyby
08-23-08, 10:00 PM
It seems that the current Commandant really wants to put 'his mark' on the Marine Corps. First it was the "new PT uniform" and now the CFT and Appearance Standards. The new PT gear is a joke! What is wrong with the green-on-green that has always worked? But the new CFT is even more unbelievable! The article on ************* (http://www.*************/military-fitness/marine-corps-fitness/corps-introduces-tough-new-fitness-test), about the new test says,"No more body building, Marine, it's time to put together a "functional fitness program" that incorporates short bursts of high-intensity activity using lots of muscles" and "Preparing for the CFT will "change their workout routine." So, I guess by definition, the PFT has been and is irrelevant? If so, why not just scrap it all together since it is inferior? I was an avid bodybuilder who never ran on a regular basis (I would start running about a month out from a PFT), to prepare. And I would run a 1st class every time! So, the new "functional fitness program" wouldn't make one change his/her workout routine dramatically to accomplish a passing score! And "No more body building"? Bodybuilding is a superior method of exercising for all around fitness and endurance. So, "bodybuilding Marines" will STILL have an advantage on this 'new test'. As for the new Appearance Standards, it sounds as though this can be very subjective command to command. I am short so therefore any weight I have be it body fat or muscle makes me look out of proportion (as I did when I was bodybuilding). So does that mean that "bodybuilding Marines" will be targeted? Although I ETS years ago and in the Guard now, I can see the Corps going the way of the Army. Stratification of basic operations and change for change's sake. I am contemplating on rejoining the Marine Corps and these new changes don't seem to be the way to go. The simplicity of the Corps across all levels is what makes it operate so well. If that keeps changing I don't think that will bode well for our future. Let me know what you think.

Sincerely,
-Disappointed

Pete0331
08-23-08, 11:06 PM
It seems that the current Commandant really wants to put 'his mark' on the Marine Corps. First it was the "new PT uniform" and now the CFT and Appearance Standards. The new PT gear is a joke! What is wrong with the green-on-green that has always worked? But the new CFT is even more unbelievable! The article on ************* (http://www.*************/military-fitness/marine-corps-fitness/corps-introduces-tough-new-fitness-test), about the new test says,"No more body building, Marine, it's time to put together a "functional fitness program" that incorporates short bursts of high-intensity activity using lots of muscles" and "Preparing for the CFT will "change their workout routine." So, I guess by definition, the PFT has been and is irrelevant? If so, why not just scrap it all together since it is inferior? I was an avid bodybuilder who never ran on a regular basis (I would start running about a month out from a PFT), to prepare. And I would run a 1st class every time! So, the new "functional fitness program" wouldn't make one change his/her workout routine dramatically to accomplish a passing score! And "No more body building"? Bodybuilding is a superior method of exercising for all around fitness and endurance. So, "bodybuilding Marines" will STILL have an advantage on this 'new test'. As for the new Appearance Standards, it sounds as though this can be very subjective command to command. I am short so therefore any weight I have be it body fat or muscle makes me look out of proportion (as I did when I was bodybuilding). So does that mean that "bodybuilding Marines" will be targeted? Although I ETS years ago and in the Guard now, I can see the Corps going the way of the Army. Stratification of basic operations and change for change's sake. I am contemplating on rejoining the Marine Corps and these new changes don't seem to be the way to go. The simplicity of the Corps across all levels is what makes it operate so well. If that keeps changing I don't think that will bode well for our future. Let me know what you think.

Sincerely,
-Disappointed


I agree with you.
I am impressed with Gen. Conway as a warfighter but not as a policy maker.
Look at SgtMaj Kent. Just once I want a SgtMaj that isn't a REMF and is a warfighter.
I will **** bricks of SgtMaj Vines from SOI takes his position.

The CoC is forgetting to ask themselves the question:
"What can I do now to ensure operational success for my Marines later"
The CFT fits, however the new PT uniform does not.
I understand the reasoning behind the Appearance program but it will hurt to many good Marines.

The CFT and Appearance program can be done away with if there was more preasure on the leadership to take responsibilty for their men. Stop ****ing worrying about battalion runs, 3 company formations a day, Charlie inspections, monthly counselings, and annual classes.
Worry about preparing Marines for combat to the best of your ability.

WannabeMustang
08-24-08, 05:34 AM
The article on ************* (http://www.*************/military-fitness/marine-corps-fitness/corps-introduces-tough-new-fitness-test), about the new test says,"No more body building, Marine, it's time to put together a "functional fitness program" that incorporates short bursts of high-intensity activity using lots of muscles" and "Preparing for the CFT will "change their workout routine." So, I guess by definition, the PFT has been and is irrelevant? If so, why not just scrap it all together since it is inferior? I was an avid bodybuilder who never ran on a regular basis (I would start running about a month out from a PFT), to prepare. And I would run a 1st class every time! So, the new "functional fitness program" wouldn't make one change his/her workout routine dramatically to accomplish a passing score! And "No more body building"? Bodybuilding is a superior method of exercising for all around fitness and endurance. So, "bodybuilding Marines" will STILL have an advantage on this 'new test'.

Personally, I think the CFT is a great idea. While the PFT is a great test of overall fitness, it is a poor test, in my opinion, of the sort of conditioning necessary for the kind of ground operations necessary for mission accomplishment. While I've always had a high first class, running three miles has never been my strong point...yet short and stocky as I am, I've been able to outhump everyone in my squad on patrol, even Marines who test better on the PFT. The PFT requires moderate, unencumbered endurance and body weight resistance exercise.

In my own experience, however, combat patrols require that you carry weight that can often add 80-90 pounds to your body weight-- I weigh 160 right now, but in full gear I weigh a little over 250. And while it does require distance endurance, it's at a hump pace, and the only running is in bursts of short sprints.

So really, I think that the CFT is a valuable addition. The PFT measures, well, just what it says: general physical fitness, your base line. The CFT measures just what it says: typical skills used in a combat environment. I don't think the CFT will require much of a change in routine, except for the skinny double rats.

But I do agree that the height/weight standards are pretty off. They don't take into account muscle vs. fat, and they are poory enforced anyway. (I see fat Marines all the time and it boils my blood.)

Old Marine
08-24-08, 09:12 AM
Don't know anything about the new CFT or what it consists of, but from 1966-1973 I do know that you had to run 50 yards with all your combat gear on, pick up another Marine in the "Fireman's Carry" and return the 50 yards without dropping him. There were pull ups and other items on the test also. I have said that for some time the Marine Corps seems like they are training a Track Team, instead of training them for combat.

Marine84
08-24-08, 04:30 PM
I kind of feel sorry for all of them Gunny. I feel sorry for my Sisters because now that more things are open to them (that weren't, even when I was in) so a lot of them have to try doubly harder...

FistFu68
08-24-08, 04:43 PM
:evilgrin:NEVER MET A MUSCLE HEAD YET THAT COULD STOP A FRIGGING BULLET :scared: :iwo:

flyby
08-24-08, 04:48 PM
Very well put. It just seems to me that the Corps needs to choose one over the other. How much are they going to pile on. Combat/MOS proficiency needs to be the main focus.

Marine84
08-24-08, 05:01 PM
Flyby - IF you are a Marine - fill out your freakin profile. You seem to sound a little like a certain little argumentative Poolee we got running around here. Hmmmmmmmmm...................

Marine84
08-24-08, 05:13 PM
Humpf....................boy took off fast.........................imagine.

Whizdumb
08-24-08, 05:54 PM
I think the CFT is a better evaluation of overall fitness, and a good test of combat efficiency. What good is all the working out and staying in shape if you can't apply any of that on the battlefield? And the new PT uniforms, the only reason it came to be is because Marines all over were asking for something different than the green on green. And besides, they are a lot more comfortable and look better. These changes are happening because our leaders are listening and taking action.

As for the MAP and BCP, Marines have always been subject to the 'image' of a Marine. First impressions speak volumes. Yes, there are Marines who are below height/weight standards who are exceptionally knowledgable in their specific MOS. Yes, there are Marines who are out of regulations who can easily pass the PFT/CFT. But a standard is just that, a standard. Not every one can be subject to special considerations, though, that option has not been voided. Special waivers can be given so that Marines who do not fall within standard may still serve, or at least be afforded a better oppurtunity. And don't forget, the Military Appearance Program has been around for years, it is just now being more enforced.

These changes are being made so that the Marine Corps doesn't go the way of the Army. I feel the Commandant and the Sgt Maj of the Marine Corps are doing a fine job.

FistFu68
08-24-08, 06:12 PM
:evilgrin: AS MARINES WE ARE ONLY AS STRONG AS OUR WEAKEST LINK,WE ARE A TEAM;THE GREEN MACHINE.SEMPER~FIDELIS :evilgrin::iwo:

KuperKMP
08-24-08, 08:36 PM
Why is the CFT a good idea?
The enemy downs a Marine, you need to get him outta there, good thing you can do at least three pullups and run three miles in green on green.

The PFT is still good, mind you, it and the fear of failing it is unfortunately the only thing we have keeping some Marines in shape. Hopefully after the CFT is implemented the Marines will see the need for fitness. When you're fireman carrying and you get stuck with the fatbody, you immediately understand why it's good to be in shape.

ecfree
08-24-08, 08:47 PM
HOW CAN flyby BE ON THIS SITE SINCE MAY WITHOUT A PROFILE.....:confused:

KuperKMP
08-25-08, 10:31 PM
Just got home, because my squad leader talked to s3 and got a mock cft today! It's nothing a basically fit Marine can't pass, but if you run it like you mean it it will kick your ass.

Mikewebe
08-27-08, 08:18 PM
Not sure but I remember the Marines and the Army collaborating before, brown shirts black socks and our names on our asses. I think the PFT is good cause it tests different parts of your body specifically, biceps and back, Abs and your lungs and legs. You need to train other parts of your body to train these so to me the PFT is fine. And as for Marines who Bodybuild I did see discrimination before I got out do to a guy who was 69 inches tall weighing 200lbs and no fat on him. He was a powerhouse. But new regs said your overweight, thats just BS

flyby
08-30-08, 01:33 PM
Mikewebe (http://www.leatherneck.com/forums/member.php?u=53711) & Kuper that prettry much sums up what I have tried to explain. A CFT can be passed by an average fit Marine so why add more to the plate (metaphorically speaking)? And the fact that a Marine who, as you stated was built like a you know what...is now somehow out of reg. when it comes to appearance? What I am warning about in this thread is the Corp's apparent inclination towards MISSION CREEP. That is something that we must be on the defense for. As in any mission, i.e. a business, capital adventure or a fiduciary goal, it can be a killer to the overall adjective. That being Winning.

Zulu 36
08-30-08, 01:52 PM
Not sure but I remember the Marines and the Army collaborating before, brown shirts black socks and our names on our asses. I think the PFT is good cause it tests different parts of your body specifically, biceps and back, Abs and your lungs and legs. You need to train other parts of your body to train these so to me the PFT is fine. And as for Marines who Bodybuild I did see discrimination before I got out do to a guy who was 69 inches tall weighing 200lbs and no fat on him. He was a powerhouse. But new regs said your overweight, thats just BS

When I was in, if your command thought you were weight control material, a medical exam was required first.

I worked for a SSgt at the 1stMarDiv MP Company who was one huge man. He was 6'3" tall and was easily well over 270. He maxed the PFT, every time. It is very hard for a man that size to run sub-18 minute three miles, but he did it easily. His torso looked like a 55-gallon drum on legs and massive biceps. He could probably crack walnuts with his thighs. He worked out all of the time, although he didn't lift weights for bulk, just strength. He just naturally looked like a weight lifting competitor.

Every time we got a new CO, XO, or 1stSgt, off he'd have to go for a WC eval at sick bay. Everytime, the docs sent him back as just fine, leave him alone.

We got a new XO who had been an infantry officer for several years and though he was the bee's knees for physical conditioning. After his referal for WC was refused by sick bay, he didn't believe SSgt H could max PFTs, so the XO challenged him. SSgt H maxed the PFT and left the Lt in the dust on every event. He more than maxed the PFT, just to make a point to the XO. In between events, to kill time, SSgt H did pushups.

Luckily for the world, SSgt H was generally very mild mannered, but the new XO did p*ss him off. They got along just fine afterward.

Achped
08-30-08, 01:59 PM
I see alot of "exceptions"...but what about the Marines who truely are disgustingly overweight and get away with it, STILL?

Zulu 36
08-30-08, 02:20 PM
I see alot of "exceptions"...but what about the Marines who truely are disgustingly overweight and get away with it, STILL?

Ah, good point. I guess it comes down to the fact that it doesn't matter who you know, but instead who you blow.

Disclaimer to keep Marine 84 and jarheadlady from hurting me (that "nail in the eye" post keeps coming back to haunt me) : My statement applies to members of BOTH genders.

Meanwhile, Matt, take care of yourself and your Marines the right way and let the other idiots worry about themselves.

I saw Staff NCOs ignore the WC program and suddenly found themselves kicked out at 19-years service for COG. NO pension. Sometimes the powers-that-be are just sucking them in for the big fall.

Mikewebe
08-30-08, 02:33 PM
I don't see a problem with implementing the CFT bi annually but if you are a 275 and above PFT I don't see the need for those folks to have to. But it would be good for those who are weight challenged and pt challenged as well as those who aren't in physical MOS's

flyby
08-30-08, 02:34 PM
Zula,
Thanks for that. ROTFLMAO!!!!!!!! And as for the overweight Marines, they could have easily been handled under the old policy. No need to change something that works. The Commandant was quoted as saying that he didn't like seeing Marines with little bellies and a little 'extra' skin under the jaw so he instituted the new so called 'appearance standards'.
Caution, side note;
I don't know, maybe its the back-to-back deployments and continual op-tempo that has Marines in the shape they are. Of course its easy to be in shape when your forward area of operations is Washington D.C. Same old stuff, never changes...I can not even begin to imagine what todays Marines are going through. I served during peace time with long days in Aviation. We averaged 55-60 hour work weeks with a mandatory one weekend a month duty (to cover flights). I would always be amazed at the ground guys who looked down on the 'Air Wing'. The S-shop guys were gone by 16:30 and the place had tumble weeds rolling around on the weekends. Not us! I'm not complaining because thats what you choose when going Air versus Ground. It's just that the Ground guys will never get it when it comes to aviation. Sorry we don't have time for unit runs etc... I don't know, maybe the Commandant is a Ground guy?

Zulu 36
08-30-08, 03:26 PM
Who cares. Marines should be able to run a PFT and a CFT weekly if ordered. Or daily, for that matter.

YutYut
08-30-08, 03:55 PM
I think the CFT is a good thing. If Marines are doing the things they're supposed to do to keep fit anyways, what's the harm in having another graded event that can further increase your chances of promotion?? Not to mention, there are plenty of Marines who train to the PFT...their workouts only consist of pull-ups, abs, and running. This will ensure Marines are fit overall.

Mikewebe
08-30-08, 04:25 PM
I'm not saying its bad, but my unit was in the field 3 days a week we had a hump on Fridays, and when we werent in the field we did squad and platoon PT. Wasn't alot of time to be worried about some other test to train for since we were already doing it. I'm just saying if your in shape your in shape no need to do some new thing

YutYut
08-30-08, 04:31 PM
Well, I can't say much about your OPTEMPO.

Appreciate your position "if you're in shape you're in shape" but how does the Bn know you're in shape? How do the various boards know you're in shape? It may seem like a PITA waste of time for "some new thing" but it serves the individual Marine and ultimately keeps the Marine Corps full of motivators.

Mikewebe
08-30-08, 07:23 PM
Agreed

flyby
08-31-08, 02:14 AM
I suppose it really doesn't matter either way.

Allen870922
08-31-08, 02:48 AM
Did the CFT when I was in SOI. Its one hell of a ****ing workout.

Seyborg
08-31-08, 12:13 PM
New Marine here, but my SDI and DI's talked about this stuff, and I've looked up some diagrams on my own time...


I like it. For any Marine, it's a good test, it provides a easier seen goal to strive after...it's like the Crucible almost, you have an objective, now...get it done!

I also LOVE the current PFT. Pull ups ensure that you have upper body strength. Pull-ups hit your back, biceps, and the muscles around the shoulder girdle. (Which are built by doing push-ups). So I would say that it is the best all around upper body exercise. The crunches are a joke, if you ask me, I don't even get a burn out of them any more. I would say, make us do FULL sit ups, but some would say I'm ****ing stupid so, I'll keep that one in my cargo pocket. Running is solid. Endurance mixed with speed. Perfect. So why change it?


JUST DO BOTH? Yes Sir!

PFT is fine where it's at bi-annually, and the CFT should be too! Maybe even quaterly. We NEED to have these tests to keep us on our toes, keep us in the gym or on the track or whatever the case is! To many Marines (ones I worked with on team week) are fat, and out of shape. Some were freaken Moto'd and would dress in PT gear because they were about to run when they got off work. Now Oorah to that! :yes:

I don't know ANYTHING about different MOS's and having time to work out. So with that ignorance, I'm still gonna say...if you can't do a 225...you need to hit up the gym..more.

Just my BOOT 2 cents.

Pvt Seybert Out! :marine:

osborned
09-01-08, 06:24 PM
We ran a detachment-wide test run of this on Friday. Due to time-constraints they limited us to the minimum ammo can lifts, so we only did 45.
Half-mile: 3:19
Maneuver Under Fire: 2:43

KuperKMP
09-01-08, 07:39 PM
Didn't know you were up here Osborne,
the time constraints were due to 1st platoon's awesome size, we were allowed to do many lifts.
Can Lifts: 70
1/2 mile: 3:09
Maneuver Under Fire: 3:04