thedrifter
07-06-08, 07:04 AM
Some Wilmington bars wary of military patrons
By Sam Scott
Staff Writer
Published: Saturday, July 5, 2008 at 7:20 p.m.
Last Modified: Saturday, July 5, 2008 at 8:53 p.m.
For some sailors on the USS North Carolina, Wilmington's red-carpet treatment stopped at the doors of downtown's bars.
In April, crew members from the Navy's newest nuclear attack submarine visited Wilmington on a goodwill trip ahead of the vessel's historic commissioning at the state port.
But when Wilmington Mayor Bill Saffo talked with them about their stay, he winced at what he heard. Sailors told him they'd been turned away from downtown bars for being in the military.
"It was upsetting to me," Saffo said. "I never knew we had that type of issue with military personnel."
But a broader pattern soon emerged when city officials asked the Marines at nearby Camp Lejeune for their experiences. In some Wilmington night clubs, they replied, military often means "no entry."
"The golden rule seems to be not to look like a Marine if you want to gain access," Master Gunnery Sergeant Michael P. Denman said in an email to base leaders after polling his company.
Other Marines gave similar impressions of downtown's biggest clubs, alleging that doormen enforce rules with them while others slide by.
"The end result is Marines are denied by bouncers while civilians enter the bar right in front of them," Lt. Jeffrey Hecker wrote.
The responses have touched a nerve with city and military leaders outraged that servicemen fighting two wars are apparently denied access to some bars that others enter with ease. This Tuesday, Saffo is attending a meeting of the Association of Bar Owners and Restaurants Downtown to discuss the issue.
"I would be ashamed to tell people I was the owner of an establishment in any town in the country that refuses to serve men and women who volunteer to defend this county in a time of war," said Sgt. Major Ralph Drake, the top ranking non-commissioned officer for Lejeune and six other East Coast Marine bases.
Different approaches
But bar owners and workers paint a mixed picture of the situation. Some like Andrew Brothers, co-owner of The Whiskey, a music venue that attracts ages 25 and up, said Marines, sailors and soldiers can enter his business the same as any other customer.
"If they're going to pay a $5 cover, we're down with it," he said. "We haven't had any trouble."
Brian Cardeiro, general manager of Rox, said he's ex-Navy who still sports a high-and-tight. He said Rox doesn't practice any type of limit on military, disputing claims that Marines are excluded from his club.
But he said he's also wary of young warriors, especially when they come in packs that can easily escalate small confrontations into big ones. Ray Jenkins, co-owner of the Reel Cafe, said Marines face no barrier to entry, but they account for the vast majority of complaints.
"They're 90 percent of your problems," he said.
Others act to stop problems at the door by letting in only certain ranks, refusing military IDs or by turning Marines away. One bouncer, speaking off the record because he didn't have his boss's permission, said they probably turn back 90 percent of military who try to come in the Front Street bar,
Dan Allen, a tattooed Army vet who has worked at five downtown bars over the past six years, said it's been the same wherever he's been - one or two Marines can get in. But as the group expands, the chances of rejection grow quickly, though the reason is almost never given, he said.
"It's so ingrained in downtown, 'Marines cause problems,'●" he said, adding he faced the same discrimination when he served.
Part of the reputation is earned, he said. But some of it comes because Marines are so identifiable, he said. A scuffle between civilians fades more quickly from memory than one involving Marines.
Indeed Wilmington police spokeswoman Lucky Crockett said Marines are not a disproportionate cause of problems.
Still a group of trained fighters, taught to stick together, presents issues for his business and his customers, said D.J. Wood, co-owner of Slainte Irish Pub and the Liquid Room.
Wood grew up in Jacksonville as the son of a Marine, and he said military men are among his most loyal customers, showing a picture that a customer sent him of himself and three smiling Iraqi boys.
"Teaching the locals that the only good car bombs are ones made with Jameson, Baileys and Guinness," the Marine wrote, referencing the mixed drink popular at Wood's bars.
But groups of all types can make Wood nervous, he said explaining why he recently turned away a rugby team from his Irish bar and why he often turns away groups of Marines as well.
"What makes a good Marine doesn't always make a good bar patron," he said "It's hard to turn the Marine switch off just because you go 45 minutes out of Jacksonville."
Private clubs and discrimination
The situation is complicated by North Carolina's alcohol laws that require liquor-serving bars to admit only private members and their guests. Ian Moseley, the owner of Level 5, said the rules requires him to turn away a lot of potential customers, Marines included, though nothing stops them from becoming members if they fulfill the three-day wait period.
Many bars flout the membership rules, but they are still cautious about advertising the fact, said Dan Boyle, the owner of Firebelly Lounge. Letting in Marines, who are clearly out-of-towners and unlikely to be members, risks drawing the attention of law enforcement, Boyle said.
But from a Marine perspective, membership requirements can mask outright discrimination. Navy corpsmen, who serve as medics to Marines, but who can grow their hair to longer Navy standards, have better luck getting in than their Marine friends, who look more military, Drake said.
Americans wouldn't tolerate a bar that kept out lawyers or police officers, Drake said. And they shouldn't accept one that keep out servicemen who volunteered in a time of war.
"To find out that, right down the road, some Marines may not be welcome is disappointing and offensive," said Drake, who never experienced anything similar coming up as a young Marine on the West Coast. "Discrimination in any manner in our county is unacceptable,"
If anything, Marines are held to higher standards, he said, since they face both civilian and military punishment for getting in trouble. A college student doing something inappropriate may get kicked out of the bar. But Marines can face discipline even if what they did falls short of a crime, he said.
"We hold Marines accountable," he said.
Seeking solutions
But following up with base officials takes time and doesn't resolve the immediate problem, Wood said, adding he wasn't sure what the answer was to the recurrent issue. Moseley, co-owner of Level 5, said Marine frustrations about getting into Wilmington bars were bubbling over when he opened his first bar in the mid-1990s.
The city got a temporary fix during the commission of the North Carolina. After hearing the sailors complaints, downtown leaders put out an appeal to let military in and the rest of the time seemed to pass without incident, though John Hinnant, executive director of Wilmington Downtown Inc., a downtown booster organization, said one bar told him they would still only allow in officers.
Improving relations is important is not only because it's the right thing to do, Hinnant said, but it's also the economically wise thing to do. With more than 40,000 Marines, Lejeune is the most populous Marine base in the country with money to throw around, especially when troops rotate. This fall thousands will return from deployment and thousands more will leave, many of them looking to celebrate on the town, Hinnant said.
"If we show them a good time, they'll take good care of us," he said.
On Thursday night anyway, things seemed to be going well ahead of the long weekend. Despite the concerns about military discrimination, men with the tell-tale cropped hair looked like they were having a good time, getting in where they pleased. Lance Cpl. Jason Campini, a Marine infantryman, said he had only one problem at a Wilmington bar years ago and wasn't holding a grudge against the city.
"I don't know what I'd do if this place wasn't here," he said. "It's a good break."
Sam Scott: 343-2370
sam.scott@starnewsonline.com
Ellie
By Sam Scott
Staff Writer
Published: Saturday, July 5, 2008 at 7:20 p.m.
Last Modified: Saturday, July 5, 2008 at 8:53 p.m.
For some sailors on the USS North Carolina, Wilmington's red-carpet treatment stopped at the doors of downtown's bars.
In April, crew members from the Navy's newest nuclear attack submarine visited Wilmington on a goodwill trip ahead of the vessel's historic commissioning at the state port.
But when Wilmington Mayor Bill Saffo talked with them about their stay, he winced at what he heard. Sailors told him they'd been turned away from downtown bars for being in the military.
"It was upsetting to me," Saffo said. "I never knew we had that type of issue with military personnel."
But a broader pattern soon emerged when city officials asked the Marines at nearby Camp Lejeune for their experiences. In some Wilmington night clubs, they replied, military often means "no entry."
"The golden rule seems to be not to look like a Marine if you want to gain access," Master Gunnery Sergeant Michael P. Denman said in an email to base leaders after polling his company.
Other Marines gave similar impressions of downtown's biggest clubs, alleging that doormen enforce rules with them while others slide by.
"The end result is Marines are denied by bouncers while civilians enter the bar right in front of them," Lt. Jeffrey Hecker wrote.
The responses have touched a nerve with city and military leaders outraged that servicemen fighting two wars are apparently denied access to some bars that others enter with ease. This Tuesday, Saffo is attending a meeting of the Association of Bar Owners and Restaurants Downtown to discuss the issue.
"I would be ashamed to tell people I was the owner of an establishment in any town in the country that refuses to serve men and women who volunteer to defend this county in a time of war," said Sgt. Major Ralph Drake, the top ranking non-commissioned officer for Lejeune and six other East Coast Marine bases.
Different approaches
But bar owners and workers paint a mixed picture of the situation. Some like Andrew Brothers, co-owner of The Whiskey, a music venue that attracts ages 25 and up, said Marines, sailors and soldiers can enter his business the same as any other customer.
"If they're going to pay a $5 cover, we're down with it," he said. "We haven't had any trouble."
Brian Cardeiro, general manager of Rox, said he's ex-Navy who still sports a high-and-tight. He said Rox doesn't practice any type of limit on military, disputing claims that Marines are excluded from his club.
But he said he's also wary of young warriors, especially when they come in packs that can easily escalate small confrontations into big ones. Ray Jenkins, co-owner of the Reel Cafe, said Marines face no barrier to entry, but they account for the vast majority of complaints.
"They're 90 percent of your problems," he said.
Others act to stop problems at the door by letting in only certain ranks, refusing military IDs or by turning Marines away. One bouncer, speaking off the record because he didn't have his boss's permission, said they probably turn back 90 percent of military who try to come in the Front Street bar,
Dan Allen, a tattooed Army vet who has worked at five downtown bars over the past six years, said it's been the same wherever he's been - one or two Marines can get in. But as the group expands, the chances of rejection grow quickly, though the reason is almost never given, he said.
"It's so ingrained in downtown, 'Marines cause problems,'●" he said, adding he faced the same discrimination when he served.
Part of the reputation is earned, he said. But some of it comes because Marines are so identifiable, he said. A scuffle between civilians fades more quickly from memory than one involving Marines.
Indeed Wilmington police spokeswoman Lucky Crockett said Marines are not a disproportionate cause of problems.
Still a group of trained fighters, taught to stick together, presents issues for his business and his customers, said D.J. Wood, co-owner of Slainte Irish Pub and the Liquid Room.
Wood grew up in Jacksonville as the son of a Marine, and he said military men are among his most loyal customers, showing a picture that a customer sent him of himself and three smiling Iraqi boys.
"Teaching the locals that the only good car bombs are ones made with Jameson, Baileys and Guinness," the Marine wrote, referencing the mixed drink popular at Wood's bars.
But groups of all types can make Wood nervous, he said explaining why he recently turned away a rugby team from his Irish bar and why he often turns away groups of Marines as well.
"What makes a good Marine doesn't always make a good bar patron," he said "It's hard to turn the Marine switch off just because you go 45 minutes out of Jacksonville."
Private clubs and discrimination
The situation is complicated by North Carolina's alcohol laws that require liquor-serving bars to admit only private members and their guests. Ian Moseley, the owner of Level 5, said the rules requires him to turn away a lot of potential customers, Marines included, though nothing stops them from becoming members if they fulfill the three-day wait period.
Many bars flout the membership rules, but they are still cautious about advertising the fact, said Dan Boyle, the owner of Firebelly Lounge. Letting in Marines, who are clearly out-of-towners and unlikely to be members, risks drawing the attention of law enforcement, Boyle said.
But from a Marine perspective, membership requirements can mask outright discrimination. Navy corpsmen, who serve as medics to Marines, but who can grow their hair to longer Navy standards, have better luck getting in than their Marine friends, who look more military, Drake said.
Americans wouldn't tolerate a bar that kept out lawyers or police officers, Drake said. And they shouldn't accept one that keep out servicemen who volunteered in a time of war.
"To find out that, right down the road, some Marines may not be welcome is disappointing and offensive," said Drake, who never experienced anything similar coming up as a young Marine on the West Coast. "Discrimination in any manner in our county is unacceptable,"
If anything, Marines are held to higher standards, he said, since they face both civilian and military punishment for getting in trouble. A college student doing something inappropriate may get kicked out of the bar. But Marines can face discipline even if what they did falls short of a crime, he said.
"We hold Marines accountable," he said.
Seeking solutions
But following up with base officials takes time and doesn't resolve the immediate problem, Wood said, adding he wasn't sure what the answer was to the recurrent issue. Moseley, co-owner of Level 5, said Marine frustrations about getting into Wilmington bars were bubbling over when he opened his first bar in the mid-1990s.
The city got a temporary fix during the commission of the North Carolina. After hearing the sailors complaints, downtown leaders put out an appeal to let military in and the rest of the time seemed to pass without incident, though John Hinnant, executive director of Wilmington Downtown Inc., a downtown booster organization, said one bar told him they would still only allow in officers.
Improving relations is important is not only because it's the right thing to do, Hinnant said, but it's also the economically wise thing to do. With more than 40,000 Marines, Lejeune is the most populous Marine base in the country with money to throw around, especially when troops rotate. This fall thousands will return from deployment and thousands more will leave, many of them looking to celebrate on the town, Hinnant said.
"If we show them a good time, they'll take good care of us," he said.
On Thursday night anyway, things seemed to be going well ahead of the long weekend. Despite the concerns about military discrimination, men with the tell-tale cropped hair looked like they were having a good time, getting in where they pleased. Lance Cpl. Jason Campini, a Marine infantryman, said he had only one problem at a Wilmington bar years ago and wasn't holding a grudge against the city.
"I don't know what I'd do if this place wasn't here," he said. "It's a good break."
Sam Scott: 343-2370
sam.scott@starnewsonline.com
Ellie