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egbutler1
04-29-08, 10:16 PM
Why won't the US Military allow us to buy Dragon Skin? Or better yet why won't the US Military issue us Dragon Skin. This PPE is far more advanced than the inceptor vest with standard SAPI or AP SAPI plates. It weight is a lot less, and like i said the technology is far more advanced. Is this because of the major contracts the US has with those who provide our military with PPE? Let us know what you think. Sound OFF!

p.s. I have not wore Dragon Skin nor had my hands on it, this opinion is based solely on my experience with stranded Issue PPE and what i have read and saw on DS.

Petz
04-29-08, 10:19 PM
well if you check out a lot of the issues with paperwork... the makers of dragon skin did not follow the proper procedures!!!

they are responsible for paying for thier testing of the armor and what ever other junk they needed to do and they never did it so they were stripped from the list of "vendors" or whatever they call it.... so yeah, that's why you can't buy or get issued better equipment...


plenty of vets wish you had the right gear but... politicians children aren't there fighting now are they?

Big Jim
04-29-08, 10:20 PM
Why won't the US Military allow us to buy Dragon Skin? Or better yet why won't the US Military issue us Dragon Skin. This PPE is far more advanced than the inceptor vest with standard SAPI or AP SAPI plates. It weight is a lot less, and like i said the technology is far more advanced. Is this because of the major contracts the US has with those who provide our military with PPE? Let us know what you think. Sound OFF!

p.s. I have not wore Dragon Skin nor had my hands on it, this opinion is based solely on my experience with stranded Issue PPE and what i have read and saw on DS.



I've seen the tests on the dragonskin and it DOES work! But what I heard from that documentary is that it costs too much to give one to every single US serviceman. But they are pretty slick! Maybe if they made it optional to the fact that you could buy one for your very own and take it with you if your wanted...maybe something like that would work, afterall, they still make everyone buy and maintain their own uniforms!!

Petz
04-29-08, 10:25 PM
uh, you missed my post.... it's a paperwork thing not a cost thing... if they can spend billions of dollars for NEW vehicles they can spend millions of dollars for something the vehicles are going to protect.... besides the bullits are aimed at the Marines and soldiers not the vehicles.... it's cheapier to keep em dude! they don't want dead troops.... simple math.

egbutler1
04-29-08, 10:27 PM
Last I heard before I got out the Army did allow you to buy DS and they would actually reimburse you for 1,300 bucks (not the cost of the vest but almost about half), than i when i was in Iraq they told us not to buy it and have it sent to us overseas because if you where killed and found out that you where wearing non issue PPE you would forfeit your SGLI and such. From what I have seen that stuff ROCKS, but at almost 3k per vest I guess our lives are not worth that much.

Petz
04-29-08, 10:30 PM
yeah, they said it was a go until they paperwork issue happened then they said NO! STOP!.... well it happens.... it's over with... if you'd like I"ll get a site with good intel on it about this... just let me know.... I'm serious.... tell me and I'll get it..... still waiting.

egbutler1
04-29-08, 10:32 PM
yeah post it up, i'm sure i'm not the only one who wants to know whats up.

Petz
04-29-08, 10:32 PM
from the website.







Pinnacle Armor Inc., would like to extend its sincerest thanks to all the local, state, and Federal agencies, as well as the brave men and women of the United States who proudly wear the Stars and Stripes on foreign soil, that have stood by our company as we endure continued scrutiny from those that would rather see us go away, instead of saving lives.


The law enforcement agencies have recently been faced with a difficult decision.
With NIJ's recent decision to temporarily suspend our NIJ certification on our SOV 2000 Dragon Skin SOV 2000.1/MIL3AF01, over concerns of our warranty, many law enforcement agencies have called us, expressing their displeasure, that when they have contacted NIJ to inquire about this issue, NIJ has not taken their phone calls and have not returned their messages.
If you or your agency has been neglected by NIJ in this manner, Pinnacle Armor needs to hear from you.







I'm not sure about this bit of propaganda... so this would take some research!!! this too came from their website


NOTICE: SGLI/VGLI Insurance Issue
True or False: SGLI won't pay if I die while wearing privately purchased body armor or a privately purchased helmet.

False: SGLI claims are paid regardless of body armor or helmet type. Wearing body armor or a helmet is not a requirement for a SGLI claim to be paid.
<small>Reference:


</small>

Big Jim
04-29-08, 10:33 PM
uh, you missed my post.... it's a paperwork thing not a cost thing... if they can spend billions of dollars for NEW vehicles they can spend millions of dollars for something the vehicles are going to protect.... besides the bullits are aimed at the Marines and soldiers not the vehicles.... it's cheapier to keep em dude! they don't want dead troops.... simple math.

Ok...for the sake of your missed post...what is your source for knowing this information? Is it fact or did you just "hear about it"? Because I've seen this documentary on the military channel a few months ago where they actually tested the dragonskin as well as confirmed what it would cost the federal government for each vest and to provide every serviceman on active duty right now. This cost would be in the tens of billions to provide the new technology when what they have now isn't exactly the bottom of the barrel. Even so, the implementation of such technoloy is at least a decade away.

Petz
04-29-08, 10:37 PM
<iframe height="339" width="425" src="http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22425001/vp/#" frameborder="0" scrolling="no"></iframe>

Petz
04-29-08, 10:46 PM
... never read anything about failures.... the army is tight lipped about why it failed.... besides does it matter?

Petz
04-29-08, 11:59 PM
http://www.defensetech.org/archives/cat_body_armor_blues.html

semper fi

hrscowboy
04-30-08, 12:18 AM
WTF your Marines your suppose to die for your country thats whats your trained for, Nobody promised you when you joined that you will come home alive and well. We Nam Vets didnt have half the stuff you guys have now and alot of us still came home. We didnt have no vests all we had was Flak Jackets and they werent worth a crap..

UsmcMotorT
04-30-08, 08:03 AM
I know Marines are to Win Battles.

I dont know if I'd say we're supposed to die, but if I had no choice...

SSgtOfMarines
04-30-08, 08:17 AM
WTF your Marines your suppose to die for your country thats whats your trained for, Nobody promised you when you joined that you will come home alive and well. We Nam Vets didnt have half the stuff you guys have now and alot of us still came home. We didnt have no vests all we had was Flak Jackets and they werent worth a crap..

Genius remark.

ggyoung
04-30-08, 11:54 AM
What is the cheapest thing the military has? I know the answer. Do you?

egbutler1
04-30-08, 12:29 PM
The Cheapest thing the military has is Me.

ecfree
04-30-08, 12:54 PM
The Flak jackets in Nam were Heavy,Hot,and Noisey.
Didn't stop AK rounds.:mad:

MarineNCO
04-30-08, 01:20 PM
It also had something to do with the testing procedures. The DS was supposed to be a step above what we currently have. It did not perform as expected if I recall correctly. Also they wanted an item that could be dragged through the mud, sweated in, rained on etc etc. Apparently this item is not able to withstand all of that AND perform above the current standard.

egbutler1
04-30-08, 01:29 PM
I just wish all the facts where known.

goosegagnon2
04-30-08, 04:00 PM
"I do not recommend this design for use in an AOR with a 7.62x54R AP threat and an ambient temperature that could range to 120F."

http://www.professionalsoldiers.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-14526.html

Look a half of the way down.

Petz
04-30-08, 04:55 PM
You're a tool, don't post again.




WTF your Marines your suppose to die for your country thats whats your trained for, Nobody promised you when you joined that you will come home alive and well. We Nam Vets didnt have half the stuff you guys have now and alot of us still came home. We didnt have no vests all we had was Flak Jackets and they werent worth a crap..

Petz
04-30-08, 05:43 PM
HRSCOWBOY, I would like to appologize for my statment.

now that being said I will elaborate why I said what I did. Why would you think modern Marines can't benefit from modern Tech? are we less of Marines that you were? I think your statement was un called for and you should be ashamed of yourself for dis-respecting fellow Marines by refering to us as bullit stoppers who's only goal is to die!

Big Jim
04-30-08, 05:56 PM
HRSCOWBOY, I would like to appologize for my statment.

now that being said I will elaborate why I said what I did. Why would you think modern Marines can't benefit from modern Tech? are we less of Marines that you were? I think your statement was un called for and you should be ashamed of yourself for dis-respecting fellow Marines by refering to us as bullit stoppers who's only goal is to die!

Wait a minute man...now lets hold on a minute here...this Marine didn't call anyone a "bullitstopper"!! I think the misunderstanding here is yours as this Marine was just saying that if your time is up in combat, then its up...NOT as a bullitstopper and to die with honor as the Marine Corps trained us. And...for the most part he was just making a comparison about what they had in Vietnam to what you have now and I think he meant, you should feel lucky you have what you have because he didn't have it in Nam. Now there's no call for ANYONE to disrespect a Viet Nam Marine...haven't they been through enough, much less to have one of what he would call his OWN to put him down? Maybe YOU need to understand more than you see here...

Big Jim
04-30-08, 05:59 PM
On that note...I'd like to request this thread be ended...thank you Moderators!

ecfree
04-30-08, 06:02 PM
amen

yellowwing
04-30-08, 06:07 PM
Dragon Skin! Wear it live in it

ZSKI
04-30-08, 06:36 PM
I heard durring the tests the glue that held the individual plates together failed

egbutler1
04-30-08, 08:10 PM
hummm, i didn't want to cause anything on this topic but i guess its a touchy subject. Just wanted to know what you all think. KILL!

SlingerDun
04-30-08, 08:15 PM
I heard durring the tests the glue that held the individual plates together faileddon't surprise me, i've tried gluing shoes on horses with high tech urethane adhesives borrowed from the auto body industry and meticulous prep work that i learned in a clinic and studied up on at home only to see the bond fail after a few days and a couple hundred dollars laterhttp://www.leatherneck.com/forums/images/icons/icon11.gif

--->Dave

SGT7477
04-30-08, 08:20 PM
All I can say Brothers we all have to stick together no matter what time we served, We are the best of the best, United States Marines.

egbutler1
04-30-08, 08:33 PM
I could definitely see glue failing. I just saw a video of some cops putting 65 rounds into a SAPI plate which blew my mind, because the Corps told us they where only rated for 3 strikes before failure but i guess they are playing it safe. Anyways as soon as you got hit you got a new pair. But I did see them put just about 200 rds into the DS with no penetration. I think DS is definitely a better product and a better idea than SAPI's but I could see a problem with glue and a bit of a problem with angled shots. Another deal I don't understand is my Interceptor vest i had in Iraq didn't cover my lower back and exposed my kidneys its like the manufacture skimped on some material to save some cash. We all had that problem, not just cause i am a tall guy. We also were not issued Side SAPI's and many of our vests where recalled due to defectiveness. I just hope that this DS deal gets worked out and we see some credible evidence that there is a problem or there isn't, and its not kept mystery, where you only hear one side claim the opposite of the other side. I would trust my life in DS more than I would an Interceptor.

yellowwing
04-30-08, 11:23 PM
What would be the cost of titanium plates? Worth very dime

yellowwing
04-30-08, 11:34 PM
All I can say Brothers we all have to stick together no matter what time we served, We are the best of the best, United States Marines.
Amen Brother! I'm with you

hrscowboy
05-01-08, 12:27 AM
First gentlemen let me say i have the most utmost respect for the Marines of today and there is no time did i ever think that any Marine should be a bullet stopper. What i was saying is the Marines today have far better equipment then what we had in our time and alot of it is because if it be known there are alot of Vets of the Vietnam war that has pressured the government Services for better equipment and bullet proof vests for our Military of Today.
Also let me remind you that alot of the Men and Women of our Military are either our Sons, Daughters, or Grandchildren of Vietnam Veterans hell yes i want you all to be better protected but when i hear stories that there still using rifles that have no killing power it really gets my goat. when you have to shoot 4 to 5 rounds down range to kill someone thats bullcrap at least the with the M-14 2 rounds and the dude was screwed up to the max. There wasnt a damn thing wrong with the M-79 it was and still is the best weapon a Marine can have..

davblay
05-01-08, 12:54 AM
I second that Cowboy, and I am sure Phantom Blooper would to!

Semper Fi,

Dave

yellowwing
05-01-08, 07:11 AM
Our RVN Marine Veterans are more tough than eloquent. :D

davblay
05-01-08, 08:28 AM
You're a tool, don't post again.

With all due respect Sgt, you are a 26 YO Marine on Active duty. There are those of is that have walked a mile in hrscowboys' shoes, literally, and we know what he was talking about. Until tou have BTDT I would be e bit reserved to pass judgement on a Viet Vet who saw history in the making. Thanks to our survival in that God aweful war, you Marines have what you have to complain about today, and that is far superior equipment than we had in the day.

I hope in 30 years, when you are our age, that you will remember your remarks, to this Nam Vet, when a young Marine makes them about your generation! Remember the Corps is made up of three sections, the OLD CORPS (us old salts), then New Corps (you active duty Marines), and the FUTURE CORPS (the ones that are yet to come)! We old salts have provided the tactics that you use today, you will provide the tactics of tomorrows Marines! That's the way it is Sgt! Lest we forget!

No Sgt, we have come a long ways since the days of the GENTELMENS WARS of the revolutionary, and civil. war where the men stood facing each other before they fired a shot at each other. We as a Corps evolve with each war.....we learn from our mistakes and grow to save more lives! Thanks to the knowledge of the Viet Nam war and the 1st Desert War, your generation is better equiped and better trained for this type of warfare, than any other military in history, and you guys are still learning for the next generation!

To our Fighting men and women in this war, I salute you! I support you! But thank a Vet of our previous wars for surviving what would have killed our generation of Marine and Soldiers in the Nam! Hopefully by the time you have been there for ten years, you won't have a Wall with 58,000 names on it that didn't make it home!

No Sgt, Cpl Rogers was merely pointing out the fact that you guys are much better protected than we were. So I would tread litely if I were you Sgt, in the future, and a simple thanks would have been plenty from you!

If you ask a few members on this site you will get the same feelings, hrscowboy, myself (davblay) FISTFU, Phantom Blooper, Jim Nelson, and a whole host of other Viet Nam Vets that still hold our heads up high today.

With deep respect to todays Marines and Soldiers, I Salute you!

Semper Fi,

Dave