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thedrifter
04-19-03, 07:13 AM
April 18, 2003

Iraqi Freedom may have been most successful campaign in U.S. military history

By Mike Madden
Gannett News Service



About a month ago, the first bombs were dropped on Baghdad. Three weeks later, U.S. troops were rolling through the Iraqi capital’s streets.
After watching U.S. and British forces win an overwhelming military victory in the war in Iraq, Pentagon officials say the campaign may have been one of the most successful the United States has ever waged. Never before have U.S. forces taken so much territory so quickly with so few American casualties.

“I, for one, think that Operation Iraqi Freedom demonstrates a new American way of war,” said Air Force Gen. Richard Myers, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff.

American and British troops swept through Iraq in about half the time it took to win the 1991 Persian Gulf war, and with about half the casualties. A reliable count of Iraqi civilian and military deaths is hard to come by, but experts believe there were relatively few of those as well because of the satellite-guided bombs and missiles used in this conflict.

Compare this military campaign to World War II, where it took almost four years from when the United States entered the conflict before Allied soldiers conquered Berlin, and the contrast is even starker.

“It’s hard to think of another (war) in which as much territory was taken as quickly with so few casualties — and I mean that actually on both sides,” said Yale University military historian John Lewis Gaddis. “For taking over an entire country that’s pretty remarkable. Normally it takes a lot more than that.”

Some observers say each conflict is different and comparing them may not be that useful. While the war in Iraq was impressive, some analysts wonder how well it will actually predict what the future might hold.

“Clearly, moving 250,000 guys halfway around the world and kicking the (tar) out of a very large military is a successful operation,” said Chris Hellman, an analyst with the Center for Defense Information, a Washington think tank that is often critical of Pentagon policies. “But you always fight the last war. We’re not going to fight this war again, and I can tell you that there are almost certainly some other countries in that region who would be better opponents than the Iraqis were.”

A major problem with comparing wars is that each one has different objectives. In the 1991 gulf war the United States and its allies spent less money to move more troops and Iraqi forces killed fewer coalition soldiers. Most of the deaths in the first gulf war were the result of accidents or friendly fire.

But the goal of that conflict — forcing Iraq to withdraw from Kuwait — was significantly less ambitious than the goal in this war, so comparing them by looking only at statistics gives an incomplete picture, analysts said.

Unprecedented technological advances on the battlefield helped ease the way for U.S. and British troops in Iraq, experts said. Computers linked commanders at headquarters, soldiers in the field and airplanes on bombing runs and provided instant intelligence to all of them.

“It re-enforced the conventional wisdom that the U.S. will win a conventional war on a conventional battlefield,” said John Pike, director of GlobalSecurity.org, an intelligence and military policy organization based in Alexandria, Va. “The security challenge is that there are a lot of problems out there that do not involve fighting conventional wars against states.”

Experts believe the war in Afghanistan after the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks may resemble the wars of the future much more than this one, with small groups of elite commandos fighting militias that blend in with the civilian population.

So Pentagon policymakers should not expect the unprecedented ease of the invasion of Iraq to be repeated elsewhere, observers said.

“This is not the first revolution in military strategy. We’ve had others like this and in every case... sooner or later you come up against an adversary who is prepared, who can resist effectively,” Gaddis said. “One should not conclude from this automatically that we can do this anywhere, anytime.”


Sempers,

Roger

greybeard
04-19-03, 09:39 AM
Actually, I do not believe there is a country in that region that knows how to fight, or one that has the real stomach for it. The combined Arab nations, have never been able to defeat tiny Israel. Israel could have gone right into Damascus had they wanted to at one time. 1st Gulf War turned out to be a very easy thing. This one wasn't too much harder, & took less time, even tho the losses were higher. I think they see it as a game of sorts. That may change now, ssince one of thier own has been soundly drubbed & sent to whereever, but for right now, I don't think any of those states can hold their own against any other determined opposing force.

Darby
04-19-03, 04:14 PM
excuse me for my naivete here. Isn't Iraq about the size of Texas? Isn't that like pitting China against Taiwan? We go in with a force of unlimited, organized military men and women and are patting ourselves on the back for winning in short order among people who change their alliances like we change our socks? People who are in chaos running around shaking their fists at the world one minute and smiling and saying "Yes, yes love Bush Bad Saddam" Four or five Iraqi's had a journalist cornered ready to slit his throat but he got away somehow. Minutes later he returned with two Marines and one driving a tank. Tune changed. "Oh yes, good America" gave the peace sign. Everything fine. Sure everything is fine until they change their mind again depending on what suits their purpose. So we, a watermelon sized country, defeated Iraq a blueberry sized country. (continued on next form)

Darby
04-19-03, 04:28 PM
Wooo. Notice China wasn't put on the Axis of Evil for all of thier inhumane treatment of people that we don't talk about. Especially their disposal of little girl children in the "crying rooms". No, they are too big and we need the trade with them. But they are just as red as was the USSR and is Cuba. However, that is beside the point. Our other Axis of Evil N. Korea and a little bit bigger Iran are still not any competition compared to the USA. I think we might save our bragging and stop and think about what the odds were. Totally against Iraq. no question about it. That is why they have weight divisions in boxing right? If a heavy weight beat a featherweight what is the surprise? or where is the applause or "bragging rights?"

In boot camp did they pit a 220 sized guy against a 140 sized guy? Maybe they did. Anyway, it's just an observation.

http://darbythorpe.homestead.com/files/usmcflagwaving.gif

firstsgtmike
04-19-03, 05:35 PM
Darby,

In a sporting event, I will play by the rulebook. When my life is on the line, I play by MY rules. My rules are simple. I WIN, whatever it takes.

Iraq didn't seem concerned about the disparity in sizes. That was their mistake. Their mistakes are not OUR problem.

The winning team always boasts and brags in the lockerroom after the game. It gets them ready for the next event.

As a kid, I learned how to survive on the streets of Brooklyn. When you had to fight, and you were outnumbered, you picked up a bat, a tire iron, a crowbar or a rock attacked the biggest guy in the gang you were facing. You got him down and never let up on him. His buddies would take the hint and decide they didn't want to mess with you. (Or, if they came ahead and kicked your ass, you had gotten your licks in anyway, and you earned their RESPECT, and their wouldn't be a next time.)

You made points citing China and North Korea. Hopefully, my street learning also works in reverse. We devestated a little guy, and, again hopefully, the bigger guys will decide that it is no fun to mess with us.

The problem WE have to watch out for is that we don't strut too much and are gracious winners.

In my neighborhood, a street cop could either be a protective tower of strength, or a bully. (We looked for ways to get even with the bully.)

Darby
04-19-03, 06:05 PM
in boxing was just that, an analogy. Nothing I said was to infer we didn't have a "right" to attack Iraq. (That is another whole subject.) Although I don't see it as defending ourselves as we invaded them, we were, of course, out to win. There was never any doubt. I am a great proponent of humility. Even some of our great Marines of the past were silent and strong, not braggarts. I don't trust those who boast including countries who do so. Didn't that Baghdad Bob guy or whoever he was look stupid with the things he was saying? Perhaps that is why so many in other countries think of us a bullies. We are gigantic in size and think we are the best, the brightest, the most patriotic, the most militarily prepared and so forth. It's alright to think that and even believe it but how is that working for us? Our public relations in the world is shot. We need some humbleness. (Continued in next text box.)

http://darbythorpe.homestead.com/files/WMwithplaneclipboard.jpg

Darby
04-19-03, 06:08 PM
Ever been in school with the best, brightest, most attractive, tallest, most muscular boy in gym class who told everyone that is what he was? It may have been true but how did the other's feel about him. No, it doesn't matter. Many countries supported us and felt terrible for us after 9/11. Other countries thought we were finally getting a taste of our own medicine giving many examples of when we had interfered with other countries and caused havoc as well as Israel's relentless pursuit of Palestinians. They haven't forgotten that Bush 41 encouraged Iraqis to rise up and then didn't come back. They say that was the UN's doing but Bush 41 was the one who told them that. So they rose up alright and lost thousands and thousands. Plus we had sided with Iraq before that against Iran. This is beside the point though. (Contined)

Darby
04-19-03, 06:10 PM
For people who claim the name Christian we sometimes seem like people who claim the name of Islam. We don't live by the very book we honor and believe in. Love, forgiveness, kindness and humility were taught by the founder of our religion. Do we practice that? Doesn't matter - - - we won. Against all odds? No, with the deck stacked for us. Still, it is war, that's all that counts.

{Why the word limit?)




http://darbythorpe.homestead.com/files/usmcemblem2.gif

greybeard
04-19-03, 07:40 PM
We are gigantic in size and think we are the best, the brightest, the most patriotic, the most militarily prepared and so forth. It's alright to think that and even believe it but how is that working for us?

There's no 'thinking' to it. Not brag, just fact, & it's worked well for 200+ yrs. Exactly whose as* are you inferring we should start kissing? N Koreas? Yeah, we should do that, at least until they get nuclear weapons perfected.

The fact is, we tried that approach a number of times. Late 30's-early 40's comes to mind. Most recently during the mid to late 90's. Bybe bye Kurds. Before that the 80's. How many died in the Balkan's ethnic cleansing before we finally got involved there? Negotiations only work when both parties are committed to it. What we should do is leave all these belligerants alone, & let your grandchildren worry about them. You know-the old "peace for our time" deal?

After seeing your profile & birthdate-maybe I should have said great grandchildren? Glad to see there older members than me around. :D

Darby
04-19-03, 08:16 PM
You should have finished the quote. "Ever been in school with the best, brightest, most attractive, tallest, most muscular boy in gym class who told everyone that is what he was? It may have been true but how did the other's feel about him."

I don't recall saying anything about negotiating or anything you mentioned. I was talking about humility. When you go into a room, who do you gravitate toward? The loud mouth braggart? I hope not. People would have more respect for our victories in all of these confrontations if we didn't act like hoods about it. You must remember what the Fonz told Richie when Richie asked him how to be tough? Fonz asked him if he'd ever seen him actually punch anyone. Richie started to say "Sure Fonz" but then he thought. No, he hadn't. Fonz said "They respect me because they know that one time I did punch out someone who didn't. That keeps them a little afraid of me." (paraphrasing) He didn't have to brag or pound his chest. People just knew. That's all I'm suggesting about our country. You don't believe that France, Germany and others had a right not to agree with us about Iraq? What about us? What if England decides to go to war with Sierra Leone. Tony Blair says "Well, we helped you with Iraq so we expect you to help us take on Sierra Leone." We don't have anything against them. We don't fear them. But hey, we don't want to be boycotted so we go? No. That was up to them. The war was no problem. The peace is what is hard. We certainly had enough troops to crush little Iraq. What we wanted was for it to look like everyone was with us but they weren't and that really looked bad. So now we turn our wrath on the nations who didn't stand by us. That would be about 120 or so out of the 181 member nations. But you see, you never know, we might bite off our nose to spite our face. In business they say to never burn your bridges. If you fall in the drink it might be some German's hand that is there to pull you out. Of course, we'd stand by our wrath and drown. I'd rather learn how to live with people rather than plotting their economic demise by not buying their products. But that's just me. And no, I'm not a great grandmother or a grandmother. I have grand-dogs.

greybeard
04-19-03, 11:09 PM
It's europe's choice to dissent, just as it's those citizen's right here in this country. But, there will be a price that they will pay. Britain, Australia, Poland, and the other's in the coalition have guaranteed backing in future needs, Seirrea Leone included. France, Germany, & Russia will likely have to do at least some serious begging. Henry Winkler as the Fonz, said whatever was in the script. No one was dying at the hands of a dictator in his instance.
It's a little hard to act with humility in a military endeavor. That is usually reserved for the loser. What the rest of the world thinks of us became irelevant on 9-11-01. Gone is the 'walk quietly & carry a big stick". Hussien was very loudly warned what was comming, & it was ignored. He paid the price, and now Syria is suddenly,at least on the surface, cooperating with turning over the Baathists. North Korea has backed down on it's demands for one on one talks with the US.
Countries now understand that, not only do we have the means, we also have the will. We WANT them to remember that fact.
Would you rather we went to Iraq with a minimal force? Had the Iraqi's turned out to be as determined as Hussien claimed they were, we would have needed all 5 divisions sent to theatre. Once the decision is made to fight, you all force available. It may appear to be overkill or boasting, but it keeps casualties down on both sides in a technical aided war. Long drawn out battles are what cause more casualties.

Who would I gravitate toward? Whoever is right & just! Kruschev banging his shoe on the table @ the UN bragging "We will bury you"? I don't think so. Castro saying communism will control the Americas? I don't think so. This chest beating is for a reason. We want & need other's to realize certain things. What they think of us is lesss important, as long as they remember. The Palestinians, Hammas, & Hezbola are likely wondering right now, if they shouldn't maybe pursue a less violent avenue.

Sparrowhawk
04-19-03, 11:39 PM
Originally posted by Darby
excuse me for my naivete here….
don't see it as defending ourselves as we invaded them…I am a great proponent of humility.
….were silent and strong, not braggarts….
We are gigantic in size and think we are the best, the brightest, the most patriotic, the most militarily prepared and so forth. It's alright to think that and even believe it but how is that working for us? Our public relations in the world is shot. We need some humbleness

They haven't forgotten that Bush 41 encouraged Iraqis to rise up and then didn't come back….

You evidently have not taken the time to study the middle East, the Arab nation and who you classify as one form of people in Iraq. Where do you think some of the Republican guards disappeared to? Not all of them fled, some remain “embedded,” in the crowd, in the city that are now protesting our presence. You seem to think it’s the same people that wave at us then attack us. It wasn’t that way in Vietnam, it was those enemies “embedded” in the village, that controlled with an iron fist the people and forced them to do what they wanted.

You have forgotten Afghanistan? How the tribal leaders moved in right away after the tailban fled and tried to control the villages as they had as warlords. But Afghanistan is a totally different nation today. It’s going to take longer with Afghanistan then with Iraq. Because Iraq has been under totalitarian rule and not under Islamic rule like other Arab nations. Those that are protesting against us in Iraq are also the Islamic fanatics that want to control the people under the guise of Islam.

That was why religions role in government was so hotly debated in the first session of leaders in Iraq. Why be liberated from under Saddam rule only to be ruled by Islamic religious fanatics?

But that is not what the people want. Those that genuinely seek our help and are grateful for their liberation.

Do we need humbleness, at this time? Where have you been? Those Marines, there have been withholding their fire power, their strength and power while being spit upon yet not taking the action that we are entitled to at a time of war. The God of Israel who’s people you condemn was and is a Warrior God, that told his people to go tow ar and destroy all that arose against them.

If you are a Christian as you claime to be, I got news for you yous erve a warrior God, god that demands justice and destroys nations and leaders, who abuse the people they are suppose to serve.

We are at war, in Iraq and a form of national Marshall law should be enforced until, full liberation has occurred. Instead the media has waged a war upon our troops, by wanting us to conquer with our hands tied behind us. A media at war with our commander in chief and our very own nation, that support what is right. Because in this war “we have,” exercised the values, and moral attributes that govern America. Values those nations condemn us for and see as a weakness.

However, we recognized some of those same values in the people of Iraq. If anything we need to practice our humanity at this time in history as Americans by reaching out to the people of Iraq, in friendship. That would be rewarded, because that is what they need. If we don’t the Arab Islamic nations will, but they will do it for all the wrong reasons. .

In Vietnam it was the same thing. The people wanted our form of democracy, our liberty and freedom, but North Vietnam wanted to control the masses, by promising peace through communism..

“Israel's relentless pursuit of Palestinians?” What a joke that is. Look at the Arab mandates, their only purpose is to totally destroy all Jews, and then American as soon as possible after that.

Sorry, Darby, but we gave peace a chance. And what we have uncovered in Iraq reveals that we were not only at war only with Iraq, but with French, Russia, China, Lebanon, Syria, Iran, Jordan, Germany and North Korea. Those were the nations that were trading and doing business with Iraq while the United Nations looked the other way.

If we hadn’t gone to war with Iraq at this time, the price we would have paid, in the next few years would have been too high a price to pay. We were only attacked on 9-11, because the Arab mind saw us as a weak nation . A nation governed by peaceniks, and president with no guts, who value the press and liberal views more then the values that made this nation great.

You seem to be repeating what the press has been saying, “it was Bush that didn’t go on to liberate Iraq in 91.” Nut, it was the United Nations who had told us, you can only go so far and no further. We did what we could, and played within the rules of the UN security council had approved. The same thing would have happened if we had listened to them this time around.

I am proud of our nation, and we need to hold our heads up high, because we deserve it> Paul was proud for what he had accomplished in his works, we need to be proud not because of who we are, because you will not find that displayed in the battlefields in Iraq, but proud for what we did and the way we did it.

History will record this as a major victory for freedom and that is what this really has become. The liberation of a nation from bondage.


“Love, forgiveness, kindness and humility were taught by the founder of our religion.” You seem to have forgotten that he whipped butt in the very temples where those virtues were suppose to have been taught. He called them hypocrites, because it was all a front to them, as it is with those that seek peace at any cost. I have never been worried about what Jesus would do. If you read his words carefully he sought out and told his disciples to seek out justice for the weak and he used strong words of condemnation more then kindness and words of love. He gave all to reveal the deeds of men but the Jesus that is coming back is not the one you mentioned, but one with the spirit of justice similar to the justice we just saw revealed in our American warriors in this war.


The Arab people have never looked at us as the “Fonz”, but as a weak nation who would never arise to strike back. The only respect we can ever get from the Arab leaders is when you first show them when you can and you will do. That is why Syria is back peddling today.

Sierra Leone is infested with terrorist that have conspired to destroy America they have plotted against America for years. It is not the Brits we would be helping there, but ourselves.


The Vietnamese people, just wanted to have the liberty we enjoyed, to taste the freedom we possessed. To be able to make decisions for themselves, and not to be told what they had to do, by their religious leaders, or by another government. They desired the same liberty and freedom we possess, that is all. Iraq now has that opportunity, we cannot afford to let them be governed by other ruthless leaders, because the publics voice can be heard, as they discover their voice from the freedom they are beginning to enjoy.


This is America’s finest moment, because we sought out the evil and have given the people of Iraq a great opportunity to enjoy the freedom we enjoy because of war and the price others have paid for it.

Cook

wrbones
04-20-03, 04:26 AM
Well said, Sparrowhawk. I was gonna rag on ya about havin' all that education and training and not takin' any english along the way, but I reckon I can't holler too loud! :D Seein's I can't type and wouldn't know grammar if she came up and kissed me!

Those posts by Darby need several books to address all of the issues that were brought up. Couldn't seem to stick to one point. Thinkin's not clear, is it. I'd say they were posted to get a reaction. Kinda like a troll, but I been withholdin' judgement on that. Usin' a pop culture icon is a kinda weak debate in logic or rehtoric ain't it? Biblical references are ok, I reckon, but it doesn't seem that this individual has read the Book much. Sometimes ya need to forget what the preacher told ya and read the Book for yerself...several times. Stuff ya don't understand, ya need to look up yerself. Lots of reference books and Bible book stores out there that has the stuff ya need.

The other arguments posted by this person have been refuted by weeks of posts here about the very things that the poster brought up. I'm no Middle East authority, but even I know that much of her references to that situation have little basis in fact or history.

I think they'll have to do a bit better than that, myself.

An opinion is one thing. Persisting in a wrong opinion in the face of fact, history and evidence to the contrary is foolish at best, mentally unhealthy and possibly dangerous at worst.

Just fer fun, I might more adequately address some of the points that were brought up later on. This oughta be kinda interesting. Poster been a member here for some time, doesn't drop by much, and only now starts posting, and posting this kinda stuff.

Bones

Sparrowhawk
04-20-03, 09:39 AM
The problem begins with labels, we label people by what they think, some folks may say the way I write reveals a conservative mind, but I have always thought of of it as an American way of thinking, and I can be liberal thinking at times, when " I thinks everyone has every right to be wrong. "

Right is right and wrong is wrong. But then again, I've always seen Rush Limbaugh as too far to the left for me. LOL

But the topic here is "Iraqi Freedom may have been most successful campaign in U.S. "

And it was posted by that tall skinny, fuzzy faced, beer drinking, big eyed, womanizing (except when Ellie's around), Drifter. That should have been a clue as to what to expect. LOL

http://sawp.bizland.com/drifter.gif


Roger posted it without comment, as written by Mike Madden

Madden wrote, "Unprecedented technological advances on the battlefield helped ease the way for U.S. and British troops in Iraq, experts said. Computers linked commanders at headquarters, soldiers in the field and airplanes on bombing runs and provided instant intelligence to all of them. "

The public has yet to realize that this war was vastly different then other wars we have engaged in. The price we paid low in comparison to the freedom won for the Iraqi people.

Our American servicemen experienced fighting at times up front and personal. They were able to see the enemy whose bodies were not dragged away and buried.

They saw the fruits of their labors, both in the enemy killed and in the faces of those that rejoiced in their newfound freedom. Not, many servicemen have seen that reward.

If this war has any benefit it is in the respect we have gained from the Arab world. That know we will not tolerate their way of kissing us on one cheek, while they hold a dagger in the other.

Using expensive bombs, that limited casualties was brilliant, and having artillery and air support strike immediately before our advancing forces, outstanding. We moved fast, and with great power into the lion’s den, before the lion realized we were approaching his front door, we were kicking in his backdoor.

Yep, this was a different war, as they all are. But with this one we have retrieved the American fighting spirit left in the rice paddies of South East Asia. We have retrieved the honor of the American warrior, that strength and honor that made our nation great. We don't need newspapers telling us how we failed in Iraq because of looters, or what the future consequences of our actions will be. We have seen it, and there is no need to tell us what we saw and what we did.

If anyone wants that video its all recorded and available in 20 tapes of the war on the Internet for only $145.00 postage included. That's the American way and now Iraq can have their own web site (with annoying pop-up windows), E-Bay account and receive payments via PayPal. Isn’t America great?


Sempers
Cook

wrbones
04-20-03, 11:21 AM
I agree, Sparrowhawk. This war has changed everything in the world. politically, socially, and in a lot of cases economically. This wasn't just any old little war. This has changed the course of history. That was it's point, I believe, as much as any other consideration. Many people in the middle east do not recognize anything but force. They didn't recognise or understand a desire for peace on our part, they saw only weakness. Their social structure and all that it is based on is quite alien to many Americans.With this war the Presidency of Carter will, historically, come under a new light. This may have been avoided twenty odd years ago.

This war is different in part, too, as it underscores the necessity for the much stricter enlistment criteria for US troops than in the past. Even the 'basic' grunt has to be better educated than in the past. Our men and women have done, and are doing, a hellluva job in Iraq in my opinion.

As for personal politics, I find that the Democrats moved away from where I was. I used to be one many years ago, and went somewhere else. That somewhere else didn't seem to include any concept of patriotism that I was familar with, having grown up surrounded by Democrats of patriotic nature. Instead of being somewhere to the left of center, I found myself just to the right of center, without having changed who I was politically. Of course I left the Democratic party behind some time ago.

Compared to some of the left wingers around now, I need to find a lawn chair, a case of beer and some binoculars and get a reservation at a certain mail box in the desert....

Capitalism is a good thing, though ain't it. Some Iraqis are already seeling booze from little stalls onna street in Bagdad. 'Least our boys can get a drink, now. They deserve one!

Sparrowhawk
04-20-03, 12:21 PM
And the Iraqi women are not covered as in other Arab nations. LOL

Oh, Bones, I didn't know about you being a democrat at one time in history. I knows some folks in the government that can erase that from your records... LOL

I once shook hands with Ted Kennedy, but I closed my eyes so no ones would see me, and made sure no one took a picture.

Well gotta go put on my Sunday go to meeting clothes then go and repent of all my evil thinking. You all have a good Easter.

Cook

greybeard
04-20-03, 02:25 PM
"Oh, Bones, I didn't know about you being a democrat at one time in history."

Just goes ta show that any of us can all be turned to the Dark Side if we aren't careful.

wrbones
04-20-03, 02:35 PM
I was young and I needed the money.

Wait.....I was young and stoopid....yeah, that's better. I was young and stoopid!

SgtBigK
04-20-03, 07:35 PM
"Our public relations in the world is shot."

So what........why should I give a **** what the rest of the world thinks of us as long as they don't try to get tough with us.
I would much rather be feared and respected than direspected
and terrorised. As for China and N. Korea they can kiss my Native American ass. They don't want any trouble either.

Darby
04-20-03, 09:35 PM
http://darbythorpe.homestead.com/files/CookOpatriot.jpg

http://darbythorpe.homestead.com/files/nightatthewall.jpg


Thank you for your input. It was nice to stop by and visit a site such as this. I've been a member since it started and when it went on hiatus and then started again. I thought that it was far above ************* in its friendliness and the respect given posters. Being suspected of being a troll was a first for me. Life is a never ending learning experience. I knew Nomad and met him at the gathering at Parris Island. We corresponded until he passed. I published something of his on a webpage. I have a graphics book that Millrat gave me at that gathering and just a few days ago posted on another board about how we all missed Cook Barela Sparrowhawk. Hope the best for all of you.

http://geneseevalley.homestead.com/Shenandoah.html


SF

Darby

Sparrowhawk
04-20-03, 11:39 PM
http://darbythorpe.homestead.com/files/CookOpatriot.jpg



Originally posted by Darby
My point originally was how can we have bragging rights when we have such a superior military force.


I must have missed the point of the warrior God in the New Testament.





How can we not have bragging rights?

Perhaps my response and those of others here maybe found in how the media has tried since its beginning to turn this tremendous victory into a series of what is wrong with what we have accomplished.

A prime example is found in today's New York Times, that adds a footnote to your comments."Deadly Unrest leaves a Town Bitter at U.S."

<hr>

Mosul, Iraq - Just over a week ago, as a vibrant spring day bloomed on the banks of the Tigris, residents of this city woke to find that the local Baath Party leadership had fled.

Suddenly free, yet alone, residents waited for American forces to rush into Mosul, the largest city in northern Iraq, to keep the peace.

Instead, the city turned into the most violent place in all of postwar Iraq.

By this morning, at least 31 Iraqis were dead and more than 150 wounded in clashes, including 17 believed to have been killed by American marines in disputed shootings. Looters had destroyed the city's most treasured buildings. American soldiers had been attacked, and one had been wounded.

In the midst of the vacuum, new leaders emerged, and mosques became the center of relief efforts. There is still gratitude toward America here, but the events of the last week have fed deep suspicions of the United States.

The problems all reflect a severe shortage of Americans troops on that Friday, the presence of suspected fedayeen fighters and an aggressive approach taken by the marines to stabilize the city."
<hr>

We didn't go there to keep the peace but to destroy and wage war against the enemy. Ours and theirs. Now we are being blamed because corrupt minds took advantage of the absence of authority, and some looted and killed their own for prize?

You posted;

"excuse me for my naivete here. Isn't Iraq about the size of Texas? Isn't that like pitting China against Taiwan? We go in with a force of unlimited, organized military men and women and are patting ourselves on the back for winning in short order among people who change their alliances like we change our socks? "

I must have missed your point here, other then what I see, which I have seen in the press and in the voices of others that condemn our military men for doing the duty they were send there to do.


Some news media have tried often to turn this victory into something we should be apologizing for. Much like they did to Vietnam warriors. Perhaps I do view the world by my own experiences, but any negative about our participation in this war is seen as a negative against our American Fighting men.

Subtle remarks made by the press and others that pick away at the true meaning of what has made America great, in being prepared in this time in history for war stripes away at the real blood and guts that took us to Baghdad.


It was far from easy. The press made it look easy at times but the battle was won by the grunts and the vast weapons we utilized because we are great and should be bragging for what we accomplished.

As I said, and what will be further disclosed is that it was not just Iraq we were fighting but other Arab nations that would destroy America if they had the weapons and military might to do so. But here we not only won this war, but we also seemed to have won much of the hearts and minds of the freedom loving Iraqi people. Maybe not the Arab leaders but they are not our teachers or someone whose opinion should matter.

We have won a great victory, because we exercised great retrain, we accomplished much with both our weapons and with our spirit. The history of this war will be written by those that write from the overall accomplishments, but they will leave out the message written in the hearts of the warrior and the citizen that share the same goals.








The warrior God in the New Testament, you will find in the book of Revelation.

greybeard
04-20-03, 11:50 PM
I certainly respect your opinions & your right to them. But you have to remember that the supporters of the Iraqi campaign have been bombarded by very similar opinions for months, from people who had far less credentials than yourself. I read a very close approximation to your comments last week from S. Sarrandon. Not exactly my idea of a supporter of global democracy.

It's a common belief, & I think a supportable one, that we are more suseptible to attack if we are percieved as weak or unwilling. I can't help but believe that OBL would consider 9-01-11 in hindsight, as being conterprodutivve to his goals. Humility has a place, in an all out world war, where an enemy is soundly & permanantly defeated. This war is not nearly over. There are battles yet to be fought, against terrorism, around the world. It would behoove us to be able to avoid some of those if we can convince those nations supporting terrorism, that we are willing, ready, & able to do as we please, and hopefully they will re-think their support of terrorists, & toss them out to avoid military confrontation. If I have offended you in any way, I apologize. It was not intended to come off in that manner.

wrbones
04-21-03, 03:39 AM
This was my second PM to Darby:


Politically this board is somewhere in the middle between the center and the far right. Myself, I'm just a little right of center, but have come to accept the leanings of the board. Especially during this war with Iraq. We watch the board pretty closely, with a moderator being on hand almost 24 hours a day. Dissenting opinions in any discussions should be balanced, well thought out, and accurately represent the facts. There's some pretty sharp folks here, so ya better have yer **** wired when ya wanta discuss something like politics! LOL. We do have a few folks around who lean pretty far to the left, but they seem to be a minority.

In the past, we've had some trouble with people from the old thefew.com. They seemed to have trouble understanding the rules and the goals of this site. Thie site is for all Marines, pogues included. The owner and moderators of the board enforce the rules posted pretty much as they stand. Personal attacks of any kind are not tolerated. Basically, keep it quiet, keep it clean and don't get anyone hurt.

This is our primary focus here: We try to keep people informed of current events and all things concerning the Marine Corps and for 'Veteran' Marines. As you've seen, we've got a lot of civilians and POOL_ees and wannabes running around. We do our best to keep them in check and to help them to understand the Marine Corps as best we can. They don't get it, of course. We have a tendency to be a little harsh with them at times, but this is a site for Marines first. We do try to teach and train people, if they'll listen.

We have a wide variety of the population represented here, as well. Active duty Generals to brand new Marines. Veterans of WWII to POOL-ees and DEPers. Ph.d's to dishwashers. Professionals and business owners, combat Veterans, IT techs and Marines of all kinds. Decorated 'heros' and pogues and Marine families who're trying to figure out what their kids got themselves into. We've got 'former' Marines who're now politicians, FBI agents, cops and people rom the State Department here. We've got disabled Veterans and Marine supporters and admirers here. Hell, there's even a couple of civvie historians and professors taking advantage of our collected knowledge and experiences. Don't tell anyone, but we've even got authors and cartoonists runnin' around the place. Plus we do what little we're able to help folks. The most recent that I know of is asking a member to visit another member in the hospital to see how he was doing. They'd never met before.

This isn't at all like most sites for Marines you'll see out there. Interact, laugh, cry, get mad, have fun, blow off steam! Just stay away from ad hominen attacks and outright provocations. If ya need help with somethin', sound off. Someone'll know how to get ya the help ya get what ya need or get ya pointed in the right direction. This is a place where people come to get help or to find information they can't locate any place else. That's what we do.

Semper Fidelis,

Bones

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Continued

MillRatUSMC
04-21-03, 04:00 AM
Darby, your one beautiful lady and a great Marine.
It's was a pleasure meeting you at Marime Recruit Depot PI.
Sometime the written word doesn't convey what one meant to say or what one really said.
Since I was a weldor after being in the Marine Corps
There's were a few that bragged about how good they were as weldors.
But the real good weldors let their welding do the talking.
If you're really good at something, there's no need for bragging.
No need to whip on a defeated foe.
There's being many examples of that, a fravorite of mine was General Josha L. Chamberlain accepting the surrending of the Army under Robert E. Lee to end a long bitter war.
He order no shooting or celebrating and rendered honors by saluting the commanding officer of that surrendering army.
That salute was returned.
instead bragging let's set example to the people of that region that we seek nothing from them except their friendship and for that government allowing us use of four air bases in Iraq.
We've given the Iraqi's more freedom in a few days than Saddam in 30 some odd years.
Even to the point of allowing them to march and ask that we leave Iraq ASAP.
But for the sake of all, we can't allow a vacuum to occur, so another can take advange to set up a religion based dicatorship.
That will come about after much blood has been spilled because there many religions in that country other than just muslim, in fact there several branches of the muslim faith in Iraq.
President Ted Roosevelt said talk softly but carry a big stick or words to that effect.
So let's talk softly instead of bragging.
The world now knows that we carry a big stick.

Semper Fidelis and May God bless a Marine aka Darby
Ricardo aka MillRatUSMC
MillRat from being a steelworker for 31 years 28 years welding.

MillRatUSMC
04-21-03, 04:02 AM
God! it's 0300 in northwest Indiana and you can tell I'm still asleep!

Marime Recruit Depot PI...make that Marine Recruit Depot PI...
SORRY

Semper Fidelis
Ricardo