The Black Rifle

[ttracker65]

This is my rifle. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
My rifle is my best friend. It is my life. I must master it as I must master my life.

My rifle, without me, is useless. Without my rifle, I am useless. I must fire my rifle true. I must shoot straighter than my enemy who is trying to kill me. I must shoot him before he shoots me. I WILL....

My rifle and myself know that what counts in this war is not the rounds we fire, the noise of our burst,nor the smoke we make. We know that it is the hits that count. WE WILL HIT....

My rifle is human, even as I, because it is my life. Thus, I will learn it as a brother. I will learn its weaknesses, its strength, its parts, its accessories, its sights and its barrel. i will ever guard it against the raveges of weather and damage as I ever guard my legs, my arms, my eyes and my heart against damage. I will keep my rifle clean and ready. We will become part of each other. WE WILL...

Before God I swear this creed. My rifle and myself are defenders of MY COUNTRY. We are the masters of our enemy. WE ARE THE SAVIORS OF MY LIFE.

So be it, until victory is America's and there is no enemy but peace!

[ttracker65]

FYI I started this post so that questions on the rifle, optics and on the range can be directed here instead of on posts about other subjects.
Cpl B :tank:

[rvillac2]

Cpl B.,
Be advised that only Marines can post freely on this forum. The Wannabees and Poollees can only reply to threads that they started themselves. You should move this to the Poollee Hall if you want them to comment.

[ttracker65]

rvillac2 I apologise for the infraction . How do I get this post moved?
Cpl B

[rvillac2]

No, apologies necessary, Devil Dog. Just letting you know why the non-Marines wouldn't respond to your post.
The mods will probably notice it and move it.

[SGT7477]

Semper FI, Brother.

[ggyoung]

ttracker65==========You are going to find more that a few Marines on this site who do not like the "black rifle" Me for one. It was and still is a big pile of sh11. I had some damn good Marine buddies on 881S. The M-14 was and still a far better rifle than that pice off sh11.

[ttracker65]

The civilian model of the M-14 is the M1A. It is a formadable weapon of the .308 Cal. My own brother uses one. But if you go by Comp shooters I only saw 2 M1A's being used and neither ranked in the top 20 on the Assault course. But i would be edgy competeing against one on a 500 to 700 yd course. Speciel ops are useing a modified version in Iraq as we speak.
Cpl B

[ggyoung]

ttracker65=======The 223 bullet does not have the knock down power or nor can it punch through walls and bushes no matter what any one will say the the m-16, m4. 223 will always be a peace of sh11.

[ttracker65]

The newer model and the model being tested by speciel forces is Not a 5.56 but is of the 6.8 SPC breed and it will go through soft positions (wood, cinder and light fortified positions) And has a much higher energy than the 5.56 but has a lower muzzel velocity comparable to the .308 as well as a longer effective range. It is being considered a Mid range sniper rifle (300 yds) the Military designation is the M-468

The M-16 is Not a .223 but 5.56 (there is a difference) and there have been complaints of it penetrateing cinder, dirt and in a few instances clothes.

But as in all thing's Ya gotta hit 'em to kill 'em

Cpl B :tank:

[Big Jim]

ttracker65=======The 223 bullet does not have the knock down power or nor can it punch through walls and bushes no matter what any one will say the the m-16, m4. 223 will always be a peace of sh11.

You're right...even from my, an Armorer's and PMI's, point of view. The Springfield is superior in almost every way. The M14 has more knock down power, further reach. But the main reason the Marine Corps got away from the M14 is because of it's bulkiness and its' weight AND THE CHEAPER way of manufacturing the M16 and its ammo. Plus, the black rifle is lighter and a little more resilient then the M14 by not rusting so much AND your average azz in the grass Marine can pack MORE ammo thus allowing for more kills. As you know, they never leave sh!t alone if it's not broken, and if it is broken...good luck on seeing it get fixed in a hurry!!!

I've shot competitively while on active duty Marine Corps with the M14 and it is FAR more superior in almost every way in power, size, balance, ballistics...all except its weight. That, my friend, was the main and only reason for its downfall. But, the M16A1 and A2 are pretty good rifles in their own respect. They have their own good attributes and can be fired accurately.

[crazymjb]

The Marine Corps Times just ran an article comparing the M16 to various other 5.56 assault rifles and it failed miserably. Did anyone else see teh article?

Mike

[ttracker65]

I do understand you hmmm older Marines had a terrible time with the M-16, with the locking lug gassing up and getting stuck. Please understand that is the M-16 of the Ice Age. Current models are as follows: 5.56 M16 A3 (3 round burst option) M16 A2 (fwd assist ,changed battle sights, three squeeze trigger) M-4 (Shorter barrel, telescoping stock) 6.8 SPC M468 (shorter barrel, telescoping stock, built in optics with iron back up) 7.62 M1A (shorter barrel, changed stock, changed sighting system) as to the New York Times They also said we lost 375 tons of high explosives at the beginning of the Iraq conflict until a civilian made them retract it. Cpl B

[Motto Poolee]

Im gonig to shoot an M16 tonite, Ill let you know how I like it!

[ttracker65]

The M-16 is made by Colt where as the 468 is made by Barret Arms the same company that produces the BMG 50 Cal. Cpl B

[thewookie]

As long as the Marine Corps exists Marines will always agree or disagree about the effectiveness of the weapons we used, especially in relation to newer generations of service rifles. I myself prefer the M-16 series because I feel for one it's more suited to the current conflicts that we find ourselves in. I think the M-14 and M-1's are great rifles but I think today's warrior needs more firepower and a lighter more adaptable weapon. You'll almost never convince any Marine from the Vietnam era of this. I have a Colt AR-15 that was reluctantly signed by Carlos Hathcock. He used to be the guest speaker at our graduations at DM school and I was fortunate to get a chance to know him. The first time I asked him to sign it, he told me no flat out, later he would go on to say how too many Marines in Nam were killed by malfunctioning A-1's. Eventually my never ending persistence paid off and he signed it but he didn't do it without telling me that I was lucky, I was/am. RIP Gunny.

I trained Marines at DM school with modified scoped versions of the M-14's and I have many rounds personally out of a scoped M-14 and a non-scoped or iron sighted M-14. I was part of a team of instructors that tested the "new" M-14 DMR, and incidentally later when I went to CQB school I was involved in the testing of the new M-4's for that school. My point is I know an M-14 just as good as I know a M-16 series rifle. I taught both of them as a PMI, and also as a DM instructor and I've shot them both competitively.

The downfall for the M-14, especially as far as true accuracy is concerned is due to the gas system. The weight and size is also a concern for today's warrior. But I saw M-14's dead on one day and then with, or without cleaning, the next day they were in the birm. And we had good armorers to work on them so it wasn't like these guns were neglected. I'm sure not all M-14's are like that but for the ones we had, you just can't have that. The M-16 series used today has its downfalls but it's a very distant relative of the A-1's that originally came out. It's got more firepower, greater flexibility, it's lighter, smaller, and accurate as anything else out to 500yds. They might change someday to something else but I don't think they need to. The way they are able to modify this weapon system today means it can go on for countless more generations.

If I'm busting through a door in Iraq or Afghanistan, or patrolling down the streets I want a M-16, not a M-14. If I'm up on top of a building providing security I still want that M-16. Not the original A-1 but the new ones.

Just one man's opinion...

[ttracker65]

to thewookie thanx this is the point I have been trying to make!
Cpl B

[Motto Poolee]

I was certain the M-14 was replaced due to it being to good. The United States did a study in WWII, figuring out that the average infantryman only engages targets to a certain distance on average, that distance not being far at all. The M-14 could meet that requirement and very much exceed it. It was also harder to produce. So from what I know, it was better than what the US Military needed, to expensive, and used a round they didn't want to use. The smaller the ammo, the more you can carry, that is what the military wants. So Eugene Stoners design worked, the M-16. It almost did make it though, it was definitely almost turned down many times. I've been hearing the A-4 models are awesome?

[thewookie]

to thewookie thanx this is the point I have been trying to make!
Cpl B

Point made, but I'll still get some Old Salts who have been in the trenches tell that me I'm wrong, I'm ok with that. But I think what today's warrior, the Marine winning battles; what they are doing and saying about what they have says it all.

[ttracker65]

Please respect your elders. The M16 of Nam was nothing to brag about. It was known to Jamb, mis feed and fall apart. It is not the M16, M4 or M468 of today. Insted of worrying about a weapon you will not be useing I would be spending my time learning the weapons you will be useing. Furthermore the Creed at the beggining of this post would be a good start. You will be expected to be able to recite it flawlessly when Range time comes in Boot
Cpl B :tank:

[thewookie]

who you talking to willis?

[Nez46]

My dad a Sergeant said the black rifle shot great to him. However he was never in combat either.

[ttracker65]

Hey Nez46 wondered when you would show up! Do not worrie the M4 works just fine same with the beefed up M468 SPC
Cpl B :tank:

[crazymjb]

From what I understand the M16 more or less does work fine now, but that doesn't change the fact that the german equivalent are still significantly more reliable. The Marine Corps times has a run a few articles on the subject.

Mike

[ttracker65]

Check out the M468 on Barret.com and see if the issues you are talking about have been fixed. to include the .270 Cal slug it delivers.
Cpl B :tank:

[Nez46]

Of corse i was coming lol. Yeah you know tho the M4A1 is the only version i have seen it was great. I also have shot an M14 there are deadly accurate.

[ttracker65]

I can not complain about the accuracy of the M468 but there is more drop jjust like the M1A that is one of the advantages of the 5.56 is that it shoots very Flat. but when useing a Drop compensatoror or ART scope /site it is all the same.
Clp B :tank:

[Nez46]

yeah i heard ther 5.56 doesnt have the knock down power like the 7.62 that the M14 shoots.

[ttracker65]

Nez if you hit 'em between the eye's they are going down. But the M468 is a different animal the SPC cartridge is the same height as the 5.56 with a .270 slug and a hot powder to push it along.
Bottom line ya gotta hit them to kill em
Cpl B :tank:

[Nez46]

Yeah true. I have heard about the SCP cartridge. I heard it makes a big difference.

[Motto Poolee]

Okay guys, just got back from the range, things I noticed. I got the AK-47, and the AR-15. I was shooting from 50 yards. I could easily group rounds from both weapons in the bullseye. I shot 5 rounds from each weapon. All were centered. Both are pretty accurate at this distance. Only thing is, is that the AR-15 can be fired rapidly and still be accurate, the AK can't. Also while I was using the AR, it freakin jammed! The AK never did once. The AR had little too no recoil, it was great. I don't know which weapon I would prefer, but I do know that the AR would be more accurate at a distance. Only thing that I didn't like was the AR jammed! I even had a Marine next to me who helped me clear the jam, and he had never seen a jam like that before, we finally got it out, I thought it was a shell, but it was a live round!

[ttracker65]

Hey Nez46 did you go to the Recon link I left at Ask a Marine
Cpl B :tank:

[ttracker65]

Did you "HEEL" the mag before you inserted it?
Cpl B :tank:

[Motto Poolee]

Did you "HEEL" the mag before you inserted it?
Cpl B :tank:

OMG your good, I bet that was it!

http://img527.imageshack.us/img527/5788/shootingpics004ju7.jpg

http://img165.imageshack.us/img165/1922/shootingpics012kt1.jpg

[ttracker65]

I only ask because I have sat and watched 200 people shoot the assault course with only one person jambing and a group of us called it before it happened when we saw him not tap the mag.
Cpl B :tank:

[Motto Poolee]

I only ask because I have sat and watched 200 people shoot the assault course with only one person jambing and a group of us called it before it happened when we saw him not tap the mag.
Cpl B :tank:

I noticed some rounds where crookid and I was like...hmm they will probably straighten out haha, guess not :evilgrin:. The AK just chewed through rounds though, crookid or not!

[Motto Poolee]

Can you guys tell I was having fun?
http://img401.imageshack.us/img401/3151/shootingpics017fm4.jpg

[ggyoung]

OK all you m-16 or m-4 lovers go tell your love of the m16-m4 to the families of the dead Marines on hill 881-S who had there m-16's broke open and trying to un jam them.

[thewookie]

I understand your point but it's a totally different weapon. The weapon that caused those unfortunate deaths has been greatly improved. Maybe the shell looks simliar but that's it. Think of it like the early bombs that we used to drop with no guidance systems, they killed a lot of innocent friendlies on the ground. Today, it's the same basic bomb, or missle, only tweaked to be able to walk right into the bedroom of choice. Semper Fi

[thewookie]

Can you guys tell I was having fun?
http://img401.imageshack.us/img401/3151/shootingpics017fm4.jpg

I can tell from your picture that you don't understand the four firearm safety rules very well.

1. Treat every weapon as if it were loaded.
2. Never point your weapon at anything you do not intend to shoot.
3. Keep your finger straight and off the trigger until you intend to fire.
4. Be aware of your target and what is beyond it.

You've basically violated them all right here; as far as I'm concerned you are pointing a loaded weapon at or near your foot, with your trigger on, in, or around the inside of the trigger guard. In schools I taught you would be talking to the Captain right now about why we should keep you around. If you were allowed to stay you would definitely have a red stamp in your book and one more of those and you are gone without question. We take it that seriously. You are young and will hopefully learn.

I'm sure you had fun and nobody got hurt but always be aware and practicing those 4 firearm safety rules. It is no joke, guys who have taught weapons for 50 years can make mistakes also. Nobody is immune to firearms safety violations. So always be aware of it.

[davblay]

It seems we have a Russian Stand Off here (3 ways)!

We have us old salts that saw the M16 in its infant stage, with all its faults. Then we have the professionals of today that know the modern weapons and can better compare them. Then last, but not least, we have the Poolees...yes the ultra super experts in weapons!

Now if I was interested in weapons I would have a hard choice to make as to who to listen to! The Poolees are giving thier EXPERT advice, the professionals are giving the facts, and us Old Salts are giving our experiences. Now if I were about to go to war, I think I would listen to the professionals! But that's just me.

That's my 2 cents.

Dave

[ggyoung]

The whole damn weapon system is still a piece of ****. Two and one half divisions of Marines hated the damn thing. And I bet that most of them feel the same way. As long as I have sons in the military ( 1 a Marine) I will ***** about it and as long as I remember 5 buddies on 881S I will ***** for them. BTW my son hates it too. He grew up shooting a 308 and 7mm Remington Mag. That's the way I feel. S/F

[Motto Poolee]

I can tell from your picture that you don't understand the four firearm safety rules very well.

1. Treat every weapon as if it were loaded.
2. Never point your weapon at anything you do not intend to shoot.
3. Keep your finger straight and off the trigger until you intend to fire.
4. Be aware of your target and what is beyond it.

You've basically violated them all right here; as far as I'm concerned you are pointing a loaded weapon at or near your foot, with your trigger on, in, or around the inside of the trigger guard. In schools I taught you would be talking to the Captain right now about why we should keep you around. If you were allowed to stay you would definitely have a red stamp in your book and one more of those and you are gone without question. We take it that seriously. You are young and will hopefully learn.

I'm sure you had fun and nobody got hurt but always be aware and practicing those 4 firearm safety rules. It is no joke, guys who have taught weapons for 50 years can make mistakes also. Nobody is immune to firearms safety violations. So always be aware of it.

Ya, sorry about that. I see what you are saying. I had just got done shooting, and placed every round in the bullseye, so I was pretty happy. No excuse though. The weapon was on safe, and I had just got done clearning the chamber, but I see your concerns.

[SGT7477]

The newer model and the model being tested by speciel forces is Not a 5.56 but is of the 6.8 SPC breed and it will go through soft positions (wood, cinder and light fortified positions) And has a much higher energy than the 5.56 but has a lower muzzel velocity comparable to the .308 as well as a longer effective range. It is being considered a Mid range sniper rifle (300 yds) the Military designation is the M-468

The M-16 is Not a .223 but 5.56 (there is a difference) and there have been complaints of it penetrateing cinder, dirt and in a few instances clothes.

But as in all thing's Ya gotta hit 'em to kill 'em

Cpl B :tank:
The .223 and the 5.56 shoot the same ammo according to Panther Arms.

[SGT7477]

I was certain the M-14 was replaced due to it being to good. The United States did a study in WWII, figuring out that the average infantryman only engages targets to a certain distance on average, that distance not being far at all. The M-14 could meet that requirement and very much exceed it. It was also harder to produce. So from what I know, it was better than what the US Military needed, to expensive, and used a round they didn't want to use. The smaller the ammo, the more you can carry, that is what the military wants. So Eugene Stoners design worked, the M-16. It almost did make it though, it was definitely almost turned down many times. I've been hearing the A-4 models are awesome?
The M-16 was lighter and very accurate but it had to be kept clean and they say the fight has gotten closer through the years so they figured they could get by with the smaller rifle, I seen where a Marine General was saying a Marine today would carry 1500 rounds each.:flag:

[ggyoung]

SGT7477 There has been issued a warning about shooting military 5.56 in civilian 223. The civilian 223 is really a 224. I know a lot of people who have shoot 1000's 5.56 in there 223's and have never had a problem with it. This does not hold true with 7.62 and 308. Also 7.62 and 30-06. The only problem is when you re-load. The military brass is a little thicker than civilian brass. If you re-load a military brass with the same amount of powder as civilian brass you will produce more pressure that could be dangerous to the shooter.

[SGT7477]

SGT7477 There has been issued a warning about shooting military 5.56 in civilian 223. The civilian 223 is really a 224. I know a lot of people who have shoot 1000's 5.56 in there 223's and have never had a problem with it. This does not hold true with 7.62 and 308. Also 7.62 and 30-06. The only problem is when you re-load. The military brass is a little thicker than civilian brass. If you re-load a military brass with the same amount of powder as civilian brass you will produce more pressure that could be dangerous to the shooter.
I just purchased a AR-15 with a chamber size of 5.56x45mm and will be shooting .223 ammo through it and according to the manufacturer there won't be any problems I hope they are right. They say if you use reloads through this rifle it voids the warranty. So in a 5.56 you should be able to shoot .223 ammo also? Semper FI.:flag:

[ggyoung]

7477=======You should be just fine. It was a warning that maybe something might happen. I will go back through all my mags and see if I can find it. I'm not sure but I think it was in a article by Col.BoddintonUSMC retired. I will try to find it tonight or tomorrow.

[SGT7477]

7477=======You should be just fine. It was a warning that maybe something might happen. I will go back through all my mags and see if I can find it. I'm not sure but I think it was in a article by Col.BoddintonUSMC retired. I will try to find it tonight or tomorrow.
Thanks Brother I am always willing to listen.:flag:

[ggyoung]

7477======Here is something out of the 10th. edition of Cartridges of the world. "the 5.56mm caseis similar in configuration to and interchangeable with the commercial 223 Remington, although SAAMI warns that dimensional differences between military chambers and commerical chambers may make it unsafe to fire military ammunition in sporting rifles." This book at any good sporting goods store has a lot of info in it about all cartridges in the world. I beleve that it is in it's 12th edition. Have lots of fun shooting. I sure do.

[ttracker65]

To address the chamber issue. All fire arm company's will "NOT" warrenty the weapon if it is chambered .223 and you fire 5.56 ammo in it! You can find this disclaimer at Panther arms, Armlite, Bushmaster as well as Barret Arms. The reason is that the 5.56 is a larger Round than the .223 and when fireing 5.56 in a chambered .223 Jambs DO Accure. Further more if you wish to fire military issue ammo and you are not useing either Colt or Bushmaster you need to check with the manufactor especiely with Armlite due to the M-186, M-196 ammo has a much higher chamber pressure and should not be used in firearms that are not set up for it.
there is a list of firearms 5.56 compatible at AR15.com
Cpl B :tank:
.223 ammo can be safely fired in a chambered 5.56 but there will be a velocity and chamber pressure difference due to the different round DIA.
Bust some rounds for Me

[ttracker65]

To address the chamber issue. All fire arm company's will "NOT" warrenty the weapon if it is chambered .223 and you fire 5.56 ammo in it! You can find this disclaimer at Panther arms, Armlite, Bushmaster as well as Barret Arms. The reason is that the 5.56 is a larger Round than the .223 and when fireing 5.56 in a chambered .223 Jambs DO Accure. Further more if you wish to fire military issue ammo and you are not useing either Colt or Bushmaster you need to check with the manufactor especiely with Armlite due to the M-186, m-196 ammo has a much higher chamber pressure and should not be used in firearms that are not set up for it.
there is a list of firearms 5.56 compatible at AR15.com
Cpl B :tank:

[crazymjb]

Does 1/7 barrel twist mean that every 7 inches the rifling makes a full twist? Also, do rounds follow the twists exactly (will the round twist once every 7 inches, or does it just partially pick up on the twist)?

If so, doesn't that mean the rounds are spinning at 329K RPM, because thats fast.

Also, has anyone heard anything about the infantry assault rifle? For those versed in weapon mechanics, in full auto it basically goes into an open bolt "mode" so has a much more rapid rate of fire, although with 30 round clips I don't know how useful that is.
Edit, found the link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ravWDN2OcwE

Mike

[ttracker65]

The twist does infact refer to twist per inch referance the M4 A3 that I fire has a 1 in 9' twist This helps stabalise the round due to the high velocity. Or in other words make the round shoot straighter. The round when fired has a base wobble.
Cpl B :tank:

[ttracker65]

Actualy I saw the IAR and crew out at the KCR Comp... I want to fire this one! ...but will you pack the ammo for me? I much rather the have the M468 and the extra punch.
Cpl B :tank:

[ggyoung]

Most if not all sporting rifle manufactures will not warrenty there rifles if you are using reloads.

[SGT7477]

7477======Here is something out of the 10th. edition of Cartridges of the world. "the 5.56mm caseis similar in configuration to and interchangeable with the commercial 223 Remington, although SAAMI warns that dimensional differences between military chambers and commerical chambers may make it unsafe to fire military ammunition in sporting rifles." This book at any good sporting goods store has a lot of info in it about all cartridges in the world. I beleve that it is in it's 12th edition. Have lots of fun shooting. I sure do.
Thanks for the info it was greatly appreciated,Semper FI.:flag:

[ttracker65]

with the exception of factory reloads ie most military ammo available to the civilian sector are factory reloads and as such they are still covered by Bushmaster
Cpl B :tank:
the reloads they will not cover are of the corrosive type as well as some perticular brands that have been known to cause malfuntions

[SGT7477]

Here is the list Panther Arms won't cover,Israeli, Korean and Chilean ammo, PMP, South African produced surplus, Lacquer Coated Ammo which is Wolf,Norinco,Silver Bear or any other steel-cased lacquer coated ammo.

[ttracker65]

I believe those are the same ones on Bushmasters list as well as some Greek ammo.
Cpl B :tank:

[SGT7477]

I believe those are the same ones on Bushmasters list as well as some Greek ammo.
Cpl B :tank:
What type of weapon do you have on your picture?:flag:

[ttracker65]

Bushmaster XM15 E2S M4 A3 with the 6.8 SPC upper or to make it shorter it is the civilian model of the M468 with a Leatherwood M600 ART Scope.
Cpl B :tank:

[SGT7477]

Looks to be an outstanding weapon.

[ttracker65]

It treats me good I treat it good.......I still think it is the cats meow
The M16 A2 was a joke on a Trac no room.
Cpl B :tank:

[Nez46]

Bushmaster XM15 E2S M4 A3 with the 6.8 SPC upper or to make it shorter it is the civilian model of the M468 with a Leatherwood M600 ART Scope.
Cpl B :tank:

Yeah shorter is better for clos range combat. And urban warfare.:beer:

[ttracker65]

Hey Nez46 you are back. Yes the shorter barrel cuts down on long range shots but your avg shot now day's is from point blank to 135 yds. after that call in the M82 those boy's can reach out and touch someone

[Nez46]

Hey Nez46 you are back. Yes the shorter barrel cuts down on long range shots but your avg shot now day's is from point blank to 135 yds. after that call in the M82 those boy's can reach out and touch someone
Yeah im a big hunter so shooting is not a big deal. I like close range combat but i like to reach out and touch things.

[crazymjb]

So Nez, how often are you in a close range combat situation?

Mike

[Nez46]

So Nez, how often are you in a close range combat situation?

Mike
I have never been in one im just saying. Lol

[Echo_Four_Bravo]

It amazes me how many people have an opinion about weapons they have never touched.

Regardless, you all (poolees and Marines alike) can keep all the super duper new innovations. You can have your piston driven uppers, you can hope for the 6.8mm round (it isn't going to happen, it would cost NATO too much to change now). You can talk about how much easier a 16 (or 14.5) inch barrel is to deal with. I'll stick with the 20 inch A2, thanks very much.

It worked for me when I was wearing green for a living. I had exactly one failure in my enlistment. I now own a 20 inch Colt AR15 A2 and have yet to have a problem, even when I have tried to create them. It is still a short weapon, quick and easy to use. It can hit to (and beyond) the maximum kill distance of the round, and it is just plain fun to sit 500 meters away from a target and show Army guys that you really can hit it with the iron sights. Heck, once you understand how to shoot the thing you can hit everything from contact distance to 500 meters with the BZO on the rifle. Sorry, I don't see any way to improve upon perfection. When you try to fix some things, you just end up messing them up.

[ttracker65]

I can take nothing away from the AR15 'roun '87 '88 I owned a Ar15 A2 Sporter2 and it preformed well. but as to it in CQB it had it's let downs. as too alot of questions that is why this thread is here.
good luck good shooting

[Nez46]

It amazes me how many people have an opinion about weapons they have never touched.

Regardless, you all (poolees and Marines alike) can keep all the super duper new innovations. You can have your piston driven uppers, you can hope for the 6.8mm round (it isn't going to happen, it would cost NATO too much to change now). You can talk about how much easier a 16 (or 14.5) inch barrel is to deal with. I'll stick with the 20 inch A2, thanks very much.

It worked for me when I was wearing green for a living. I had exactly one failure in my enlistment. I now own a 20 inch Colt AR15 A2 and have yet to have a problem, even when I have tried to create them. It is still a short weapon, quick and easy to use. It can hit to (and beyond) the maximum kill distance of the round, and it is just plain fun to sit 500 meters away from a target and show Army guys that you really can hit it with the iron sights. Heck, once you understand how to shoot the thing you can hit everything from contact distance to 500 meters with the BZO on the rifle. Sorry, I don't see any way to improve upon perfection. When you try to fix some things, you just end up messing them up.
I understand i have shot the rifles i talk about well most of them. But the thing is that i think that long barrels will still work for the military.

[BlindZeal08]

Discuss: ?

http://i25.tinypic.com/2ed8fmg.jpg

[Nez46]

What in the world is that idiot doing. Thats helping him alright lol.

[semperfi170]

What is the M1 that was mentioned on this thread? The only rifle I know with that designation is the M1 used prior to the M14 by both the Army and Marines. If memory serves me right the silent drill team still uses the M1.:flag:

I do remember that rifle PT was easier with the tinker toy than the M14.:evilgrin:

[Echo_Four_Bravo]

Nez, shooting a few rounds through a gun doesn't make you an expert on that weapon system. Having never been in the military, you have no way of knowing what the military does or does not need.

[sparkie]

Please, give me the 7.62. Weapons system? When you cradle that, you are the weapons system.

[Echo_Four_Bravo]

If you mean 7.62x51 then I agree. If you mean 7.62x39 then you're missing the point!

[ttracker65]

The mention of the M1A (civilian version of the M-14)was that a modified varsion of it was tested in Iraq by Army Spec Forces. Later they have adopted a modified version of the M-14

[ttracker65]

November 18, 2007 - U. S. Army soldiers, Privates John Radcliff and Samuel Hernandez, Charlie Company, 2nd Battalion, 22nd Infantry Regiment, 1st Brigade Combat Team, 10th Mountain Division, conduct security as fellow soldiers search a village about 50 miles southeast of Kirkuk, Iraq. This Unit is using the M-14 as a sniper rifle.

[MotivatorOfTheGuard]

Cpl B, i would "date" your daughter, just to hang out with you and and your arsenal. My wife shouldn't mind. I'll bring the CLP to the party.

[ttracker65]

Say Again?

[MotivatorOfTheGuard]

Trying to make you laugh. Nevermind. I was under the influence of sedatives. It was me trying to be funny, stating how i wanted to hang out with you and go shooting, but somehow, it got retarded.

[SGT7477]

Trying to make you laugh. Nevermind. I was under the influence of sedatives. It was me trying to be funny, stating how i wanted to hang out with you and go shooting, but somehow, it got retarded.
Are you biting off more than you can chew,lol?:flag:

[Nez46]

I mean not to be an expert. Nor have i said i was. I was in this room because i was invited here by a Marine to talk about the black rifle.

[SGT7477]

I mean not to be an expert. Nor have i said i was. I was in this room because i was invited here by a Marine to talk about the black rifle.
So talk about the black rifle then pushups, READY BEGIN.:evilgrin: :flag: :evilgrin:

[MotivatorOfTheGuard]

Are you biting off more than you can chew,lol?:flag:

In the words of Chris Farley..."I, I, I'm Retarded".

[ttracker65]

Tis' ok MotivatorOFTHEGUARD I got it and Nez46 I am the one that invited you and your input is of value even if some times it gives us Vet's a chuckle

[Nez46]

Thank you Corporal.

[ttracker65]

Ok Poolees here we go. Can any of you name the color codes for ordance...... ir: bullet tip colors and what they stand for???????

[sparkie]

I always dip mine in vodka, and the color runs, sorry.

[ttracker65]

Hey sparkie! you would get a shock if you checked out how many M and XM class rounds are designated for the M-16/ M-4 In the old day's it was just 6 but now it is 13. That will be my next Prac question.

[sparkie]

I remember a couple o colors, but can't remember what they were for,,,,, the way of old age I guess.

[ttracker65]

c'mon wannabees, Here is a hint but it is not complete you might try looking in FM 4-30-13 Appendix F Ammunition Identification that can be found at <a href="http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/policy/army/fm/4-30-13" target="_blank">www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/policy/army/fm/4-30-13/a> Luck and remember this is only a partial list

[Nez46]

Ok Poolees here we go. Can any of you name the color codes for ordance...... ir: bullet tip colors and what they stand for???????

5.56 or 7.62??

[gnarkill04]

Disappointing.. I'm hoping for ordance and have no idea what any of that is. :thumbdown to me

[Nez46]

How is that disappionting??

[ttracker65]

Nez46 5.56 and JFORG the link 3 or 4 posts up is to the field manual for ordanance. good hunting.

[ttracker65]

Hey any of you Poolees that are interested I will be at Nice Shot indoor range in Redding Calif. on March 15th with both my M-4 5.56 and my M-4 6.8 if you are interested in Fam Firing either of them. After that I will be competing at the Knob Creek Range in West Point Kentucky in the Assault Class on April 11th. There will be alot of shooting opertunities there.

[Nez46]

Yeah sucks i live n Ga.

[ttracker65]

Nez46 how about those 5.56 bullet tip color codes????????? You should have found the page by now??????

[SGT7477]

Wasn't he the one complaining about the black rifle in the first place?

[ttracker65]

Ok Poolees I see I have bent your minds so let's try this I give the colors and you tell me the round they are for or what the colors means.
This is for the 5.56 round and the colors are...........Green, Red, Orange, Yellow, Black, Plain tip silver cartridge, No color, Copper colored cartridge w/fluted case, Solid black cartridge, Rose colored crimped end cartridge, Rose colored crimped end cartridge grooved. There you go now go fish. Happy hunting.

[Nez46]

I havent been on i have been working im sorry.

[SGT7477]

Your excused for now, Carry On.

[ttracker65]

Nez46 you know how I feel about sorry. Just answer the question and if you get at least 8 of them right you will be forgiven.

[Nez46]

Looks like im the only Poolee up for the challenge. Solid Black Cartridge is a dummmy-inert loaded bullet. Green is a Duplex. Orange is a tracer round. No color is ball round. Rose petal crimped is a blank. Plain tip silver case is High pressure test. Green tip is ball heavy tip for SAW ans M16A2.A rose petal Crimped is a rifle grenade. Well thats it Corporal.

[ttracker65]

Nez 46 Right on you are right. Sorry for being gone for so long on the West Coast. The next Test is as follows.... How many different types of military cartridges are there? NAME THAT CARTRIDGE

[kbs95125]

Specifically US I'm going to assume Cpl...?

To include cartirdges in development/field testing (i.e. 6.8SPC)....?

Poolee's can't have all the fun.

[Nez46]

Nez 46 Right on you are right. Sorry for being gone for so long on the West Coast. The next Test is as follows.... How many different types of military cartridges are there? NAME THAT CARTRIDGE

5.56 or 7.62 or all?

[ttracker65]

I say again all rounds 5.56 in use by the US military Good luck Poolees

[Ub3rmike]

I didn't notice this post. I'm a lurker on AR15.com and I have two AR-15s. Time to consult the ammo oracle. I'm assuming we're just going to stay in the confines of the US Spec and not list every damn NATO round out there (EG the problematic underpowered Radway Green for the SA80s).

M193: 55gr FMJBT Ball, plain tip. This cartridge is intended for use against personnel and unarmored targets from 5.56&#215;45mm weapons with a 1-in-12-inch (1:12) or faster rifling twist rate (M16 family rifles and other compatible systems). Its ballistic coefficient is typically .243

M196: 55gr Tracer, short range, red-painted tip.
M855: 62gr FMJBT Ball, green-painted tip.
This cartridge is intended for use against personnel, unarmored and light armored targets from 5.56&#215;45mm weapons with a 1-in-10-inch (1:10) or faster rifling twist (Machine guns: M249 Minimi; Rifles: M16A2 and other compatible systems). The M855 cartridge is based on the FN-designed SS-109 bullet, and has a gilding metal-jacketed, lead alloy core bullet with a steel penetrator. The primer and case are waterproof. It was adopted by NATO in 1980 as the standard small arms ammunition for NATO forces. Its ballistic coefficient is typically 304.
M856: 61gr Tracer, long range, orange-painted tip.
This cartridge uses the FN-designed L-110, 63.7 grain tracer bullet, which has no steel penetrator. (Note that while FM 23-14 lists this bullet weight for the M856, IMI lists the weight of the L-110 tracer bullet which tops the M856 round as 61.7 grains. At least one AR15.com member reports 60.8-61.3 weights for a variety of M856 rounds that were pulled). The long projectile requires a barrel with a 1:8 or faster rifling twist.
M995: 62gr FMJBT AP, black-painted tip. This FN-designed bullet uses a hardened tungsten-carbide penetrator, and is only available on special-issue SAW belts.
M996: Actually, XM996, as it hasn't been adopted yet. The tracer compliment to M995.


When it comes down to it, especially with buying ammo, the two most recognizable rounds are M193 and M855, which differ in the amount of powder int he rounds. I believe right now we're using M855, but I'm sure the other stuff is getting used as well since people are desperately trying to scrounge whatever surplus .223/5.56 Lake City pushes out for $300-$400 a case for 1000 rounds.

I believe the Marines and Navy Seals currently or at one time are testing out a 77gr round.

I'm not going to branch out into other calibers, even though theres always talk about going back to 7.62X51 or switching to the new 6.5 grendel or 6.8 remington. Sure, civilians may be into them, but buying either new rifles or thousands of replacement upper assemblies and retooling Lake City's manufacturing to a new caliber isn't exactly economically viable. Its why we won't don't upgrade to a new battle rifle, it's why we don't use gas piston upper assemblies, and why we're still holding onto the M9 (aside from playing nice with other NATO countries). The .223/5.56 round does get the job done, for a standard battle issue rifle it is phenomally accurate. If I, as a nasty civilian, can nail 1 MOA at 200 yards without instruction from someone truly qualified (PMI), then it'll serve the purposes of a military branch which embraces marksmanship.

[kbs95125]

I didn't notice this post. I'm a lurker on AR15.com and I have two AR-15s. Time to consult the ammo oracle. I'm assuming we're just going to stay in the confines of the US Spec and not list every damn NATO round out there (EG the problematic underpowered Radway Green for the SA80s).

M193: 55gr FMJBT Ball, plain tip. This cartridge is intended for use against personnel and unarmored targets from 5.56×45mm weapons with a 1-in-12-inch (1:12) or faster rifling twist rate (M16 family rifles and other compatible systems). Its ballistic coefficient is typically .243


M855: 62gr FMJBT Ball, green-painted tip.
This cartridge is intended for use against personnel, unarmored and light armored targets from 5.56×45mm weapons with a 1-in-10-inch (1:10) or faster rifling twist (Machine guns: M249 Minimi; Rifles: M16A2 and other compatible systems). The M855 cartridge is based on the FN-designed SS-109 bullet, and has a gilding metal-jacketed, lead alloy core bullet with a steel penetrator. The primer and case are waterproof. It was adopted by NATO in 1980 as the standard small arms ammunition for NATO forces. Its ballistic coefficient is typically 304.


When it comes down to it, especially with buying ammo, the two most recognizable rounds are M193 and M855, which differ in the amount of powder in the rounds.


and the steel penetrator...

[Ub3rmike]

and the steel penetrator...

Ah yes, I completely forgot about it to, my head just runs like a computer, 5.56 -> Military round -> Hague Convention -> Everythings full metal jacket!

Unfortunately attention to detail slipped while attempting to do my calculus homework at the same time. :( Oh well, hopefully I'll see you at Metcalf range one of these days. I do admit that I pretty much gave up shooting so I can start tabula rasa and be completely molded when the time comes for learning how to shoot at boot. Saved a lot of money from ammo too.

[kbs95125]

I get a new toy for my armory tomorrow so I'll probably be there next weekend, if not later this week.

I'm supposed to start shooting handgun competitions at the San Jose Muni range behind SJ State soon too.

[ttracker65]

Poolees stick to the issue! You have named some but not all and for FYI M996 is a dim tracer made for night vision now finish naming those rounds. Oh the 77 gr Black Hills Match hollow point has a military designation what is it? Let's see if you can find the rest of the rounds. Good Luck

[ttracker65]

Have we given up? surrendered because the Cpl asked you to complete the task hmmmmmm

[Ub3rmike]

Studying for Calc and Physics exams for tomorrow, but I'll play some more.

Alright, to top off the list I had so far:
M195: Grenade launching blank
M202: 58-grain ball round.

Rounds produced by Valcartier
XM287 and XM779: 68-grain ball rounds.
XM228/XM780: Tracer rounds

M775: blank for M234 grenade launcher. (Old 80s grenade launcher)

XM775: Ball (Started using this series in 1970s IIRC)
XM778: tracer

Finally figured out the designation of the 77gr that Black Hill has been producing: Mk 262 Mod 0/1

MLU-26/P: What the USAF used to designted .223 as.

[ttracker65]

WoW I have to take my hat off to you. That is absalutely correct. The next question's are an easy one's .
(1) How many reciever groups does the M-4 have.
(2) How many twists does the M-4 barrel have.
(3) How many lans and grooves. does the M-4 have.
(4) Name the part's of the bolt carrier group for the M-4.
Good luck Poolees

[Ub3rmike]

WoW I have to take my hat off to you. That is absalutely correct. The next question's are an easy one's .
(1) How many reciever groups does the M-4 have.
(2) How many twists does the M-4 barrel have.
(3) How many lans and grooves. does the M-4 have.
(4) Name the part's of the bolt carrier group for the M-4.
Good luck Poolees

I can only answer some of these questions off the top of my head, will be my last post tonight so I can get more studying in. Will try to respond to the rest on Friday, but:
(1): Should be be 3 counting the M4 w/standard handguards, M4A1 with picatinny rails, the Knights Armaments Company upper. 4/5 if you count the upper assemblies for SOCOM. Not sure if the A3 counts because I've had people tell me thats just a commercial designation for AR-15 flat-top uppers.
(2): M4 barrel twist rate is 1:7 (1:9 is sufficent to stablilize current rounds)
(4) BCG: Firing pin retaining pin, firing pin, bolt cam pin, bolt assembly, key and bolt crrier assembly.

Jeez, this kind of divides those who do this for recreation, those who've taken an armorer's course, and those who do this for a living.

[ttracker65]

So far right with the exception that this is not an armorers course this is "look it up" then realise that you will have all of this in Boot and be tested on it. It is called Know your weapon inside and out. Read the Creed again.
so far so good.

[ttracker65]

This next question's is an easy one:
(1) Who first developed the M-16 rifle.
(2) Who was the first company to contract to build the M-16.
Good Luck Poolee's

[SCrawford]

Eugene Stoner
Armalite

[ttracker65]

Good Job SCrawford You are absolutely correct. Now this should be nothing for you Poolee's.: (1) What year was the M-16 rifle Developed. (2) What year was it issued to replace the M-14 rifle (3) What was the sniper rifle of choice in Vietnam. Good Luck Poolee's you might need it!

[Nez46]

The M-16 very early devolpment was in 1957. The M16 replaced the M14 between 1966-1968. I think the sniper rifle of choice was the Rem model 700.

[ttracker65]

Hey Nez46 You are right on the money. Now how about those 7.62 rounds name the rounds and their color code. Good Luck Poolee's

[Nez46]

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/policy/army/fm/4-30-13/figf-7.gif

I thought the chart was neat lol

[FistFu68]

:evilgrin: BEEN TOO ISRAEL BEA-COU TIMES,HAD CHOICE OF ANY RIFLE IN THE FREE WORLD.HANDS DOWN I WENT WITH THE GALIL 7.62X51NATO,TO ME THE BEST ASSAULT RIFLE IN THE WORLD.WITH THE CASH THEY OWE US,1/2 MILLION OF THEM BADBOY'S NEW;NOW LET ME WARN YOU THIS IS A RIFLEMAN'S RIFLE!!!:thumbup: :iwo:

[ttracker65]

Nice Job Nez46 now what is the military designation of these rounds??
The Galil 7.62x51 is nice only problem is you will not be useing one so I would worry about the one that is going to save you and your Brothers life!

[Nez46]

Does that mean what weapons and purposes they are used for??

[ttracker65]

Nez46 the military Identifacation number will be just fine.

[FistFu68]

:usmc: YOU WILL IF YOU ARE IN "MARSOG",SPECIAL OPERATIONS;OR IF YOU GO HIKING THE APPALACHIAN TRAIL WITH ME?:D :iwo:

[Nez46]

Private isnt it MARSOC??

[FistFu68]

:evilgrin: DURING MY ERA IT WAS FORCE RECON-I ONLY USE THE PVT.AVATAR 'CAUSE I LOVE THE &quot;EGA&quot;I WAS A CPL.3X'S-HAD VELCRO ON MY CHEVRONS(LMAO)ACTUALLY GOT HONORABLY DISCHARGED AS A PFC.MARSOC SOUNDS...

[ttracker65]

The next questions will be on the ACOG let's not get ahead of our selves, Nez46 did you get those "M" numbers yet?

[ttracker65]

FISTFU68 Welcome to our little Black Rifle Prac site

[FistFu68]

:evilgrin: THANKS CPL.MAKE SURE SOME OF THESE ROOKIES KNOW WHAT A BAYONET IS FOR?:evilgrin: :iwo: S/F

[Nez46]

No Corporal I looked for a long time and i never found them.

[Nez46]

Sorry Corporal. Thank you sir. I need all the luck i can get :beer:

[ttracker65]

Nez46 take a look here ok? good luck Poolees http://www.inetres.com/gp/military/infantry/rifle/762mm_ammo.html

[ttracker65]

Devil Pups new question:
What does ACOG stand for?

[RYDERKUR]

American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists, Corporal? lmfao....

[ttracker65]

oh boy :(

[Nez46]

Advanced Combat Optical Gunsight ohh yeah baby

[RYDERKUR]

That was definetly for a laugh Corporal, good work there Nez46

[kbs95125]

What is the name of the aiming concept that makes the ACOG sucessful, and how (just the basics) does it work?

[mynameispawpaw]

As for the debate on the black rifle. I bought myself a Panther Arms, DPMS 20 inch AR-15 A2 when I got out. I love it! It is still a fun rifle to plink with and it works wonders on coyotes and jackrabbits around home. I can reach them and knock them down at ranges up to 100 yards on jacks and 200 on coyotes. If I need to reach any further, I also have a Remington Sendero in .300 Win Mag. I shot the M-16 in Far East Division matches in Okinawa, and have put literally thousands of rounds through them, and my own. I have not found one firearm that doesn't have some kind of malfunction or other sometime in it's lifetime. Most of the time, it is due to operator malfunction. I also religously clean my weapons ( something my wife refers to as fondling the other women in my life). Keep your weapons in good working order and clean and you shouldn't have any problem with them.

[Nez46]

Bindon Aiming Concept (BAC)* models feature bright daytime reticles using fiber optics which collect ambient light. The ACOGs combine traditional, precise distance marksmanship with close-in aiming speed.

Bam baby lol Here you go PFC.

[Nez46]

I meant Corporal sorry.:beer:

[kbs95125]

It was a Pvt who asked the question, but haha good to go.


However, you didn't describe how the BAC works...

*hint* target acquisition, both eyes are....

[ttracker65]

Good Job Nez46 you are correct. Ok Poolees here goes the next one: Explain sight alignment and sight picture.

[Nez46]

Sight alignment is where you align the rear and front sight (Ex on left sight). Now sight picture is when you have your sights aligned and you place it on the target (Ex on left).
EX:http://www.biggerhammer.net/manuals/23-35/23350005.gif

[Nez46]

It was a Pvt who asked the question, but haha good to go.


However, you didn't describe how the BAC works...

*hint* target acquisition, both eyes are....

I didnt forget you sir lol. The highly advanced Bindon Aiming Concept is an optical breakthrough that combines traditional long-stand-off marksmanship capability with the ultimate in close-combat transitional aiming. Using the two-eye aiming method when the weapon is being moved the perceived image is unmagnified permitting extremely rapid target acquisition. As soon as the weapon movement is stopped and the shooter is close to the proper aim on target the targeted image "zooms" into magnification permitting greater shooting accuracy with higher hit ratios. This is especially useful for moving targets or for targets in dense cov

[ttracker65]

Real close Nez46 but to simulate your sight alignment, sight picture take your left hand with thumb and index finger make an O. then hold a pencil in your right hand holding it on the end pointing straight up. align the pencil in the O of your left hand that is your sight alignment sight picture is what you see through the O. Next question will come later.

[ttracker65]

Alright Poolees next question:
How many settings does the M-4 rear ring sight have and what do they represent.

[Nez46]

Corporal i can not find it.

[RYDERKUR]

.....at this time but the Poolee will find out and get back to the Corporal. Roger? I'm sure it can be found, when you get bored get at it

[sparkie]

One click, 1/4 inch. on the verticle.

[Nez46]

Sir i cant say i have not learned alot. But all i can find is them talking about the M16 rear sight. And hell found alot of sites where i can buy the M4 rear sights, But as far as how many rings, well cant find it lol i will keep looking.

[Nez46]

okay here is what i have obtained. But im not sure. There are two ring sights. One is larger than the other. The smaller one is for daytime operations. The smaller one is for night time operations. I had to call an infantry Marine. ;)

[RYDERKUR]

Ok, kind of easy one, but what are the Marine Corps characteristics of the M-16 and what is the acrynom

[ttracker65]

Nez46 the first sight is for 0 to 300 yds the flip up is for 300 to 500 yds the next question will come later

[ttracker65]

Good morning Poolees, Now your next question: 1. What are the distances used for the Marine Corps Qualification 2. What is the maximum effective range of the M-16 A2 Again Good Luck Poolees these are easy ones.

[Nez46]

200,300,500, Are the distances shot for Qual. Max range foe an M16 is 3600 meters.

[phantasm]

disregard.

[ttracker65]

Nez46 Max Effective Range - not max range try again

[Nez46]

550 m (600 yd) sorry i didnt sound right to me either but thats what a website told me.

[ttracker65]

ahhhh Nez46 ah well
Poolees listen up:
What are the 4 shooting Position used for the Marine Corps Qualification.

[Nez46]

standing, kneeling, sitting and prone sir.

[ttracker65]

Good Job Nez46 now for the sight's:
(1) what does each click for the vertical represent
(2) what does each click for the horazontil represent
Good luck Poolees.

[Nez46]

Each click of elevation and windage is 1 centimeter. For ease, round up to one square. However, each square of the 25-meter zero target is .9 centimeter in actual measurement, which affects large adjustments. Elevation is the clicks verticle. And windage are your clicks horizontal.

[ttracker65]

Good job Nez46 each click represents 1/4 " increments.
Now Poolees Answer these questions:

(1) Explain the "flag" system when determining wind speed.
(2) Explain on how to determine range by Height.

Good Luck Poolees

[Nez46]

The Flag Method of determining wind velocity is the primary method used on the KD range. The flag method is based on the observation of a flag or some other cloth object that is blowing in the wind. It requires the Marine to estimate the angle (in degrees) that the flag is blowing away from its vertical pole. Dividing this angle by 4 will give the wind velocity in mph.
<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p>Mil-Dot is a range estimating reticle that was developed for military applications. The space between the dot centers subtends one milliradian (Mil). One Mil subtends 3.6" at 100 yards, or 36" at 1,000 yards.

This reticle was developed in the late 1970s to help U.S. Marine snipers estimate distances, and is now standard for all military branches. The space between dot centers subtends one milliradian (mil) hence the name mil-dot. Contrary to popular belief it does not stand for "military dot". One mil subtends 3.6 inches at 100 yards or 36 inches at 1,000 yards. To use this system effectively you must know the size of the target. For instance most people are an average of 6 feet tall or 2 yards. The formula used for determining range to the target is (size of target x 1000 divided by number of mils the target covers).

</o:p>

[ttracker65]

Very Good Nez46 absolutly correct.
Poolees here are some easy ones:

(1) Describe Guageing Fire.
(2) Describe what a beaten zone is.

Good Luck Poolees

[ttracker65]

Poolees are we having trouble with this one? Think and if that does not work you may wish to use the guide book or try the Riflemans TM........Do Not Make Me Do Your Work For You!

[Nez46]

is number one suppose to be Gauging Fire??

[ttracker65]

Yes Nez do not be smart just cause you got a chalenge coin from the SgtMajor. Good luck

[Nez46]

How did you know i got a challenge coin? 1. Well i turned number one inside and out and i do not have any riflemans guide books or tms. 2.The Beaten Zone is a concept in indirect infantry small arms fire, specifically machine guns. It describes the area between the "first catch" and the "last graze" of a bullet's trajectory. At the first of these points a bullet will hit a standing man in the head, at the last of these points, as the bullet drops, it will hit a standing man in the feet. Anyone standing within the beaten zone will be hit somewhere from head to foot.The concept works best as part of a static defence with the area covered by a position plotted out before hand. Usually the machine guns will be mounted on a tripod and indirect fire sights (such as a dial sight) fitted in addition to, or instead of, direct fire ones. Fire can then be called in by spotters to engage specific points in the guns field of fire, even if out of sight of the machine gunners.

[ttracker65]

Nez46 Good job on #2, #1 Gauging fire is the concept of fireing around to gauge Range to Target and following through with "Kentucky windage"
Next questions are 1 on Range and 1 That is a curve ball.

(1) Describe Kentucky Windage.
(2) Who is LtCol CC Coffman, What War and What makes him so speciel in the Marine Corps.

[RWilliams]

Nez46 Good job on #2, #1 Gauging fire is the concept of fireing around to gauge Range to Target and following through with "Kentucky windage"
Next questions are 1 on Range and 1 That is a curve ball.

(1) Describe Kentucky Windage.
(2) Who is LtCol CC Coffman, What War and What makes him so speciel in the Marine Corps.

(1.)It's a term used to describe the practice of using ones best estimate to compensate for wind or target movement.

And the second one I am haveing trouble with, but I'm still workin on it.

[Nez46]

#1 Is moving your point of aim of rifle to hit the target not your sights on the rifle.

[ttracker65]

you are both right on #1 now how about #2? you Poolees know the answer so write it so i may give you your next question. Good Luck

[ttracker65]

OK Poolees let's see how smart we are. These are the new questions:

(1) What are the three positions for the selector switch on the M4?
(2) How many positions are there on the telescoping stock of the M4?
(3) Explain the term Cooking off rounds?

Good luck Poolees.

[RWilliams]

OK Poolees let's see how smart we are. These are the new questions:

(1) What are the three positions for the selector switch on the M4?
(2) How many positions are there on the telescoping stock of the M4?
(3) Explain the term Cooking off rounds?

Good luck Poolees.

1.) Semi-Auto, 3 round burst, and Safety

2.) There are 4

3.) Cooking off (or thermally induced firing) refers to ammunition exploding prematurely due to heat in the surrounding environment.

[ttracker65]

Good Job RWilliams, Exactly correct!
Next questions Poolees:

(1) What is the "60 second rule"?
(2) How are telephone poles and football fields Used in shooting applications?

Good luck Poolees

[RWilliams]

Good Job RWilliams, Exactly correct!
Next questions Poolees:

(1) What is the "60 second rule"?
(2) How are telephone poles and football fields Used in shooting applications?

Good luck Poolees

I'm stumped on these Cpl....I haven't given up just haveing a hard time.

[Rasczak]

#2) Range.

[ttracker65]

Range is part of the answer to #2 using football fields to determine distance
the other part useing telephone poles to get an average Elevation.

ie:
3 football fields = 300 yds. 3x 100 yds.
3 Telephone poles 115' high 3x 35'.
What about #1 Poolees? Good luck

[ttracker65]

The Black Rifle Trivia/post Is Back In Action Starting 9/05/08

[yellowwing]

The Black Rifle is a weapon of mass destruction that you poolees will master! :evilgrin:

[ttracker65]

Poolees we shall start again with Basic's.
1) What is the Standared Issue Weapon Of the Marine Corps?
2) Who is Issued a weapon in the Marine Corps?
3) Who is responsible for your weapon?
4) who may you give your weapon to upon demand?

These are simple Basic Questions Please one answer per Poolee/wanna bee or Marine

[NicholasITALY]

Corporal the standard issue weapon of the Marine Corps is the M16A2. (and the M16A3 ?)
One more information: The M16A2 began entering Marine Corps service in 1984.

[Iseethelight]

1.)While it would not surprise me if the standard issue weapon in Recruit Training is still an M16A2, I would be very surprised if the Active Force did not use an iteration of the M4 as standard issue.
2.)Everyone?
3.) Me, Myself and I. The individual issued the weapon is the start and stop point in the chain of responsibility regarding that weapon.
4.) Superior Officers and the Armorer.

[ttracker65]

Nicolas you are correct for enlisted it is in fact the M16 A2/A3
FOR OFFICERS AND SENIOR ENLISTED IT IS THE M9 SERVICE SIDE ARM. So .5 for your answer.

Iseethelight You to are correct but answer the questions with confidence not in a questioning form.

[ttracker65]

OK Poolees this is the weekend question and is not meant to be easy so be prepared to use your search engine as well as ask Marines for help. It is paramount that you understand the scope of these questions because they will be the difference of doing your job and breaking the LAW.

1) What Authorizes the use of DEADLY FORCE by a USMC Guard on duty. Please be specific since there is a list in place by CMC informing Marines on this topic.

2) When are Recruits first issued a Weapon.

3) Discribe snapping in.

Good Luck Poolees I know you will make me proud and find the answers. Just remember when all other avenues have failed use the Marines themselves for help because these questions are not meant to be easy.
GO GET "EM

[ttracker65]

Ahem...... Poolees do I have you Stumped?????

[MarinesFTW]

#2. In the first week of boot camp

[mrmorency]

#1 Deadly force can be used in situations involving...
a) Self Defense
b) In Defense of Property involving National Security
c) In Defense of Property not involving National Security, but inherently dangerous to others
d) To prevent serious offenses against persons
e) Apprehension and escape ( when neccesary )
f) Under lawful order

[mrmorency]

#3 Describe snapping in...

"Snapping in" can be described as at the beginning of Grass Week the recruits are given a week to practice the basics of how to get into firing positions and safely handle their rifles.

[ttracker65]

mrmorency Are you sure???
Poolees mmorency is has some of #1 right but there is more
Poolees FTW has # 2 wrong that is good for fifty Push!
Poolees mmorency has # 3 Wrong that is good for fifty Push!

TRY AGAIN ON 1-3 and what is the rest of #1???
I know you can get this Poolees ask some of the Marines that are active to help you.

[mrmorency]

As far as #3 goes...

I've also heard of it being referred to dry firing your weapon. Also, in some cases it would done with a pencil inserted into the barrel of a US military small arms weapon and dry fired at a target.

[mrmorency]

ps: this can used as benefit to learn proper trigger squeeze.

[Fubar5812]

deadly force is...
that force which a person uses with the purpose of causing death or serious bodily harm or which a reasonable or prudent person would consider likely to create a substantial risk of causing death or serious bodily harm.

6 reasons for use of deadly force (as prescribed by the USMC Military Police instruction manual)

1.in defense of property vital to national security

2.in defense of property not vital to national security but still inherently dangerous too others.

3.apprehend or arrest

4.in self defense/defense of others

5.too prevent escape.

6.too prevent commiting of a offense against others.

i'm at MP school right now,so this stuff is already ingrained in my skull.

[ttracker65]

Cwalling that is correct in the PMO manual I will call the answer good Although there 12 listed for Guard Duty. PMO's are on a different schedule. There is also when under lawful order as well to prevent Rape and a few more. But Good Job.

mrmorancy You will be issued your service weapon with in a few day's after being turned over to your DI's NOT IN RECIEVING.

NEXT SNAPPING IN:
Snapping in is the practice of gaining sight alignment sight picture without using Live ammunition usualy using barrels with mini targets on them as well as practicing the squeeze technique and proper strap adjustment.

Next Questions will be posted tomarrow night. Awsome answers made me have to double check my info. As well as do 100 for having it part wrong on 1-3

[ttracker65]

For More Info on Deadly Force use this link:
http://www.globalsecurity.org/security/library/policy/army/fm/3-11-22/appc.htm
It is good information and handy to know.

[mrmorency]

deadly force is...
that force which a person uses with the purpose of causing death or serious bodily harm or which a reasonable or prudent person would consider likely to create a substantial risk of causing death or serious bodily harm.

6 reasons for use of deadly force (as prescribed by the USMC Military Police instruction manual)

1.in defense of property vital to national security

2.in defense of property not vital to national security but still inherently dangerous too others.

3.apprehend or arrest

4.in self defense/defense of others

5.too prevent escape.

6.too prevent commiting of a offense against others.

i'm at MP school right now,so this stuff is already ingrained in my skull.


Pretty much what I said.

[Fubar5812]

i didn't know that PMO and guard duty had different deadly force auth reasons they made it sounds universal for the Marine Corps,i learn something new everyday! thanks corporal.

[ttracker65]

The Guard units do not have the latitude but in situations of Security a guard unit may be on orders to shoot first depending on National security where as PMO is a Law Officer and expected to use only the force needed the difference of a Law enforcement Officer and Combat Soldier
There is no heat of combat when an Officer Makes an Arrest.

[ttracker65]

OK Poolees here we go What are the Small Arm Calibers used by the Marine Corps be specific as to caliber or MM

[Rains]

OK Poolees here we go What are the Small Arm Calibers used by the Marine Corps be specific as to caliber or MM


.30 caliber?


EDIT: am I allowed to answer if I am not a Poolee until January?

[ttracker65]

Of course Rains and you are correct on one of them

[ttracker65]

I guesse you Poolees Have Fallen out on me. Let's see if we can fire this thing up again. What are the Small Arms Calibers used by the USMC????

[Rains]

I guesse you Poolees Have Fallen out on me. Let's see if we can fire this thing up again. What are the Small Arms Calibers used by the USMC????


M9 .9MM

[Rains]

REPOST: I FELT MY LAST POST WAS NOT AS DETAILED AS IT SHOULD HAVE BEEN. I HOPE THIS IS BETTER.

___________________________________

M9 9MM SEMIAUTOMATIC PISTOL

WEIGHT - 33.6 OZ
- 41.0 OZ LOADED

LENGTH - 217 MM

BARREL LENGTH - 125 MM

CARTRIDGE - 9X19MM PARABELLUM

ACTION - SHORT RECOIL

MUZZLE VOLOCITY - 1160 F/S

EFFECTIVE RANGE - 50 M

FEED SYSTEM - 15 ROUND DETACHABLE BOX MAGAZINE

[Nicky the Great]

He said calibers, meaning rounds that are used in the small arms.

5.56mm(.223), 7.62mm(.308), 9mm, .50, .45, 12g, and 40mm.

I think that covers them all, Cpl.

Edit: Oh, and then there's the different hand-held rocket/missile launchers (AT-4, Javelin, Stinger, etc), but I can't remember the calibers on those.

[Rains]

He said calibers, meaning rounds that are used in the small arms.

5.56mm(.223), 7.62mm(.308), 9mm, .50, .45, 12g, and 40mm.

I think that covers them all, Cpl.

Edit: Oh, and then there's the different hand-held rocket/missile launchers (AT-4, Javelin, Stinger, etc), but I can't remember the calibers on those.


Goes to show how much I know about weaponry. :nerd:

Most I've been around them is going hunting with a rifle I dont even remember the name of, I think it was a 22.

[BR34]

He said calibers, meaning rounds that are used in the small arms.

5.56mm(.223), 7.62mm(.308), 9mm, .50, .45, 12g, and 40mm.

I think that covers them all, Cpl.

Edit: Oh, and then there's the different hand-held rocket/missile launchers (AT-4, Javelin, Stinger, etc), but I can't remember the calibers on those.

We don't use .223. We use the 5.56. Also, I'm guessing you're thinking 7.62x39, that's Russian, we use .308.

I wouldn't consider .50 cal small arms. I'd call that large bore. And I for damn sure wouldn't consider 40mm small arms. Jesus man, 40mm is like 3 times the size of a .50 cal.

[Zulu 36]

We don't use .223. We use the 5.56. Also, I'm guessing you're thinking 7.62x39, that's Russian, we use .308.

I wouldn't consider .50 cal small arms. I'd call that large bore. And I for damn sure wouldn't consider 40mm small arms. Jesus man, 40mm is like 3 times the size of a .50 cal.

The 40mm grenade round for the M79/M203 is considered a small-arm. Any caliber weapon, using gunpowder as a propellant, that can be carried and operated by a human without need for a ground or vehicle mount is a small-arm by definition.

The .50 cal machine gun and 40mm Mk-19 are not considered "small-arms" as they are impossible (or nearly so) to be operated without use of a ground or vehicle mount.

We also use a 7.62mm (7.62x54). That is also called the .308 or 7.62mm NATO.

Rocket or missile systems are not considered small-arms as they do not use gunpowder for propellant.

[polizei]

What about an M82 Sgt.?

[Zulu 36]

What about an M82 Sgt.?

Is the M-82 a .50 caliber machine gun? Is it capable of being carried and operated by a human without need of a ground or vehicle mount? Does it propel it's projectile through use of gunpowder?

The answers are no, yes, and yes. Thus a M82 is a small-arm.

Amazing what a little logic can accomplish.

[Nicky the Great]

We don't use .223. We use the 5.56. Also, I'm guessing you're thinking 7.62x39, that's Russian, we use .308.

I wouldn't consider .50 cal small arms. I'd call that large bore. And I for damn sure wouldn't consider 40mm small arms. Jesus man, 40mm is like 3 times the size of a .50 cal.

.223 and 5.56 are almost the same thing, I wrote it like that for simplicities sake. When I said 7.62, I was referring to 7.62x51 NATO (.308), not the 7.62x39 which is used in AKs.

And I was referring to the Barret .50 sniper rifles, not the M2 machine guns.

And yes, the 40mm M203 launcher, as well as the M32 MGL. I don't think the old M79 is still in use.

And thank you for clarifying that about the rocket systems, Sgt.

[ttracker65]

Zulu36 You are on it. All arms that can be Shoulder or Hand Fired are considered Small Arms with the Exception of Launchers ie: Law, Dragon and so on. Next Question Poolees.
What weapon fires 7.62 x 51 is in current deployment. (there are 3)
Good luck and I will enjoy seeing your Answers.

[Books]

I'm going to guess, without the aid of the internet:

M-14
M-21
M-240B
M-40A3

[Achped]

Questions like these are pointless, because poolees juts copy/paste **** from the internet.

Questions asked should be like:

What is the optimal burst on a M240B?

What is the max range of a PEQ-15 in conjunction with PVS-14 NVGs? What is the max range of a PEQ-15 in conjunction with a vehicle mounted IR camera?

Yeahhh....*****es...

[polizei]

I would have to guess an optimal burst for an M240B would be between 3-6 rounds per burst?

And the effective range for a PEQ-15 is 2,000 meters, so I would assume the PVS wouldn't add that much more, if any? And in conjunction with a mounted IR, no idea.

Any of those correct, or at least semi-correct Cpl.?

[ttracker65]

Achped I try to keep it simple as in K.I.S.S. The RCO's will get into the high end of training. I on the other hand want them to be familiar with the weapons they will be employing.

[Achped]

I would have to guess an optimal burst for an M240B would be between 3-6 rounds per burst?

And the effective range for a PEQ-15 is 2,000 meters, so I would assume the PVS wouldn't add that much more, if any? And in conjunction with a mounted IR, no idea.

Any of those correct, or at least semi-correct Cpl.?

Negative, 6-8 for the 240B. 3-5 for the M249.

The max range is more like 2000m. Do you think any weapons system can hit out to 2000m? Depending on what you want effective to mean, you are correct. Yes, you can effectively paint a target with a PEQ15 for aircraft pilots by "circling" an area that needs to be hit with the PEQ15, but you can't hit **** with a PEQ 15 using any type of optics/NVGs at 2000m.

With the PVS14s, you lose distance. Thats because the max focusing range of the PVS14 is 200m. So if you cant focus out passed 200m, how can you identify what something is, let alone hit something passed 200m?

Using a high end optic/IR, you could go out to 800m or so, but thats with an area fire weapon like a 50 or a MK19. Maybe a 240B if you have your **** locked on right.

Tracker, I know. I just like being a PITA ;)

[polizei]

Understood, thanks for the information Cpl.

[ttracker65]

What is a "Forward Assist on the M16/M4 class Rifles and what is it's purpose
This is an easy one Poolees and can be a life savor. Good Luck

[Books]

To clear a jam?

[JWG]

What is a "Forward Assist on the M16/M4 class Rifles and what is it's purpose
This is an easy one Poolees and can be a life savor. Good Luck

Interesting to know. It is a button on the rifle that manually forces the bolt carrier forward to make sure the bolt is locked. This helps prevent it from not firing when needed and is nice in environments such as combat situations.

[ttracker65]

Very good it is needed most when carbon builds up on the bolt causing it not to seat the round by hitting the forward assist with the palm of your hand it will force the bolt forward thus seating the round so that it may be fired Very good answers Poolees,
Next how many positions does the fire selector have for the same weapons and what do these positions mean??? Good Luck Poolees

[JWG]

Very good it is needed most when carbon builds up on the bolt causing it not to seat the round by hitting the forward assist with the palm of your hand it will force the bolt forward thus seating the round so that it may be fired Very good answers Poolees,
Next how many positions does the fire selector have for the same weapons and what do these positions mean??? Good Luck Poolees

Three positions for the fire selector feature.

1.) Safety - "Safety first kids!"
2.) Semi-Automatic - One pull of trigger = one round fired
3.) Burst - One pull of trigger = three rounds at a time

The burst was improvised from the earlier Automatic feature as it added accuracy and effectiveness if a quick defensive shot was needed. Say if you were on the ground and injured, etc. Enemy approaching. Also helped save ammo.

This is good stuff, definitely learning a lot from this. Thank you for spending the time to help us, Marines. :thumbup:

[polizei]

Are you sure? I could be mistaken, but I thought burst was first established for the M16A1 in Vietnam, because the unconventional warfare lead to troops needing 3-round burst. The burst let the troops fire more rounds, while still being accurate with the rifles.

[RYDERKUR]

Are you sure? I could be mistaken, but I thought burst was first established for the M16A1 in Vietnam, because the unconventional warfare lead to troops needing 3-round burst. The burst let the troops fire more rounds, while still being accurate with the rifles.

No, the M16A1 was safe/semi/full automatic, I believe.

[ttracker65]

the M16Ai was Safe Semi and Full Auto. The 3 round burst came out with the A2 in 1989. Next question Why to Marines Tap their Magazines before inserting them into the magazine well???

[C BAKER]

the M16Ai was Safe Semi and Full Auto. The 3 round burst came out with the A2 in 1989. Next question Why to Marines Tap their Magazines before inserting them into the magazine well???

Sir! My guess is to make sure the round are seated in the magazine correctly Sir!

[ttracker65]

Baker that is correct Good Job! Next Questions
1)How is the M16/m4 cooled?
2)how is the M16 Operated
Good Luck Poolees

[NoRemorse]

So this is where all the poolees went...

Understandable, this is an outstanding thread.

Semper Fi, CPL T. :usmc:

[C BAKER]

Baker that is correct Good Job! Next Questions
1)How is the M16/m4 cooled?
2)how is the M16 Operated
Good Luck Poolees

Sir! This recruit believes that the assault rifle is air cooled Sir!

Sir! This recruit guesses that a metal or aluminum tube sends pressure from the barrel to the bolt, kicking the bolt back and activating the ejector, thus releasing the empty 5.56 cartridge Sir!

[C BAKER]

Sir! This recruit believes that the assault rifle is air cooled Sir!

Sir! This recruit guesses that a metal or aluminum tube sends pressure from the barrel to the bolt, kicking the bolt back and activating the ejector, thus releasing the empty 5.56 cartridge Sir!

Oops! I meant to say Pool-ee. Well I guess I don't have to stress about that part during recruit training.;)

[ttracker65]

The M16/M4 is Air cooled and Gas Operated Very good Answer Baker
Next Question what is the Rate of fire for the M16/M4

[Achped]

Whats the casualty radius of an M67 fragmentation grenade.

[rickyracer]

I will take the M16 anyday.
Put me on a range of 500 to 750 meters and I'll put 10 out of 10 rounds in the center hole every time.

[Pete0331]

Contrary to popular belief with Drill and SOI Instructors:

The M-16 series of weapons will NOT explode if the gas rings on the bolt are aligned.

At most the weapon will not cycle properly or it will have sluggish operation.

Also, the weapon will NOT miss-feed or jam if the bottom of the magazine is resting on the deck while firing.
If it does the mag was bad in the first place.

Not wearing your flack jacket and helmet will NOT make much of a difference when BZO'ing your rifle.
Wearing it is because of range rules in keeping a combat mindset.
Train how you fight...and all that.

I'll save the others I have for later.

[Wes40138]

Whats the casualty radius of an M67 fragmentation grenade.
15meters,and a kill radius of 5 meters

[Wes40138]

The M16/M4 is Air cooled and Gas Operated Very good Answer Baker
Next Question what is the Rate of fire for the M16/M4
Corporal ,the answer you seek is as follows .
Cyclic: 800 rpm
Sustained: 12-15 rpm
Semiautomatic: 45 rpm
Burst: 90 rpm

[Achped]

15meters,and a kill radius of 5 meters

By the book, correct.

But always have in the back of your mind that if a grenade lands 5m away from a haji, your chances of killing the enemy are almost nill. Grenades suck.

[Wes40138]

By the book, correct.

But always have in the back of your mind that if a grenade lands 5m away from a haji, your chances of killing the enemy are almost nill. Grenades suck. Is it just in the way the shrapnel spreads out ? I don't know,but I doubt there is a set pattern. I know I read that a M67 can send shrapnel as far as 230 meters .

[Fubar5812]

weight of the m240B Machine gun?
what is the sustained rate of fire for the m240B machine gun?
what is the cyclic rate of fire for the m240B machine gun?

Can m203 40mm grenades be used in a mk19 40mm automatic grenade launcher?