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Sgt Leprechaun
02-15-08, 04:48 PM
I thought I'd post these since a question was asked. Old Salts by all means chime in where needed!

ALL images are courtesy of Jaroslav Jochman.


Enlisted rank insignia 1912-1917
http://mujweb.atlas.cz/kultura/usmc/imaservice/rank01.gif


Rank description - "Private" has no rank insignia
1. Corporal
2. Sergeant
3. Gunnery Sergeant
4. First Sergeant
5. Quartermaster Sergeant
6. Pay Quartermaster Sergeant
7. Drum Major
8. Sergeant Major

Enlisted rank insignia 1917-1922
http://mujweb.atlas.cz/kultura/usmc/imaservice/rank02.gif


Rank description - "Private" has no rank insignia
1. Private First Class (since 1917)
2. Corporal
3. Sergeant
4. Gunnery Sergeant
5. First Sergeant
6. Quartermaster Sergeant
7. Pay Quartermaster Sergeant
8. Drum Major
9. Sergeant Major

Enlisted rank insignia 1922-1929

http://mujweb.atlas.cz/kultura/usmc/imaservice/rank03.gif


Rank description - "Private" has no rank insignia
1. Private First Class **
2. Corporal
3. Sergeant
4. Gunnery Sergeant
5. First Sergeant
6. Staff Sergeant (since 1923)
7. Drum Major *
8. Supply Sergeant (since 1923)
9. Quartermaster Sergeant
10. Master Technical Sergeant (since 1923)
11. Pay Quartermaster Sergeant
12. Sergeant Major Notice * : in 1922 change of 1912 chevron design
Notice ** : in 1922 change of 1917 chevron design

Sgt Leprechaun
02-15-08, 04:55 PM
Enlisted rank insignia 1929-1937
http://mujweb.atlas.cz/kultura/usmc/imaservice/rank04.gif


Rank description - "Private" has no rank insignia

1. Musician Marine Band
2. Trumpeter (different for right and left sleeve, the trumpet is facing forward)
3. Drummer
4. Assistant Cook
5. Trumpeter First Class
6. Drummer First Class
7. Private First Class
8. Mess Corporal or Field Cook
9. Trumpet Corporal
10. Drum Corporal
11. Corporal
12. Mess Sergeant or Chief Cook
13. Trumpet Sergeant
14. Drum Sergeant
15. Sergeant
16. Platoon Sergeant
17. Staff Sergeant (Mess)
18. Staff Sergeant
19. Technical Sergeant (Mess)
20. Technical Sergeant
21. Drum Major
22. Supply Sergeant
23. Gunnery Sergeant **
24. First Sergeant
25. Master Gunnery Sergeant
26. Paymaster Sergeant
27. Master Technical Sergeant (Mess)
28. Master Technical Sergeant
29. Quartermaster Sergeant
30. Sergeant MajorNotice ** : in 1922 change of 1912 chevron design

Enlisted rank insignia 1937-1944
http://mujweb.atlas.cz/kultura/usmc/imaservice/rank05b.gif


Rank description - "Private" has no rank insignia

1. Musician Marine Band
2. Private First Class or
Assistant Cook **
Trumpeter First Class **
Drummer First Class **
3. Corporal or


Mess Corporal **
Field Cook **
Trumpet Corporal **
Drum Corporal **
4. Sergeant or


Mess Sergeant **
Chief Cook **
Trumpet Sergeant **
Drum Sergeant **
5. Staff Sergeant ** or


Staff Sergeant (Mechanical) **
Staff Sergeant (Mess) **
6. Platoon Sergeant **
7. Technical Sergeant or


Technical Sergeant (Mess) **
Drum Major **
Supply Sergeant **
8. Gunnery Sergeant ** or


First Sergeant **
9. Master Technical Sergeant or


Master Technical Sergeant (Mess) **
Quartermaster Sergeant **
Paymaster Sergeant **
10. Sergeant Major or


Master Gunnery Sergeant **
11. Second Leader, Marine Band Notice ** : in 1937 change of 1922 chevron design

Enlisted rank insignia 1944-1946
http://mujweb.atlas.cz/kultura/usmc/imaservice/rank06b.gif


Rank description - "Private" has no rank insignia
1. Private First Class
2. Corporal
3. Sergeant
4. Staff Sergeant
5. Platoon Sergeant
6. Technical Sergeant
7. Gunnery Sergeant
8. Master Gunnery Sergeant or
Master Technical Sergeant
Quartermaster Sergeant
Paymaster Sergeant
9. Sergeant Major or
First Sergeant ** Notice ** : in 1944 change of 1937 chevron design

Sgt Leprechaun
02-15-08, 05:04 PM
Enlisted rank insignia 1946-1959


http://mujweb.atlas.cz/kultura/usmc/imaservice/rank07b.gif


Rank description - "Private" has no rank insignia
1. Private First Class
2. Corporal
3. Sergeant
4. Staff Sergeant
5. Gunnery Sergeant
6. Master Sergeant
7. First Sergeant
8. Sergeant Major
Enlisted rank insignia 1959-Present

http://mujweb.atlas.cz/kultura/usmc/imaservice/rank08b.gif


Rank description - "Private" has no rank insignia
1. Private First Class
2. Lance Corporal
3. Corporal
4. Sergeant
5. Staff Sergeant
6. Gunnery Sergeant
7. Master Sergeant
8. First Sergeant
9. Sergeant Major
10. Master Gunnery Sergeant
11. Sergeant Major of the Corps (since 1957)

SGT7477
02-15-08, 05:34 PM
Whew you done a job I like our rank structure of today.

PatriotGirl422
02-15-08, 08:16 PM
Wow, I didn't realize how much it's changed over time. I like our current rank structure, seems a lot more simple than some of the past ones.

LeonardLawrence
02-15-08, 09:46 PM
I don't know to be a 1917 PFC with some crossed rifles is pretty slick.

Thanks for the post Sgt. Interesting material.

I will take the crossed rifles over the harp any day ;)

Sgt Leprechaun
02-16-08, 08:22 AM
Imagine reciting the 1929 rank structure in recruit training!

I'll post more of the rank structure history as I come across it.

Sgt Leprechaun
02-18-08, 04:16 PM
Thought I'd post a couple more chevrons here. These are photos, not drawings.

1stSgt. Likely made before 1942.
http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/uploads//monthly_02_2008/post-837-1203041489.jpg

Gunnery Sergeant.
http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/uploads//monthly_02_2008/post-837-1203041592.jpg

Sgt Leprechaun
02-18-08, 04:17 PM
SSgt. WWII era or 1930's

Dress blues:

http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/uploads//monthly_02_2008/post-837-1203042698.jpg
Khaki:
http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/uploads//monthly_02_2008/post-837-1203043061.jpg

Sgt Leprechaun
02-18-08, 04:18 PM
Pre WWII 1st Sgt:
(It's reversed, showing the construction)
http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/uploads//monthly_02_2008/post-837-1203043275.jpg




1stSgt, WWII era on khaki:
http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/uploads//monthly_02_2008/post-837-1203043324.jpg

Sgt Leprechaun
02-28-08, 04:21 PM
The latter few pictures came from US Militaria Forums.

Sgt Leprechaun
02-28-08, 04:24 PM
http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/uploads//monthly_02_2008/post-837-1203541739.jpg

Courtesy of HH Booker. Love the pay scale. This is a pocket chart, BTW which is why it's so small. Dated 1939.

SGT7477
02-28-08, 04:26 PM
We have come a long way do you have a pay scale of today?

Sgt Leprechaun
02-28-08, 04:34 PM
Yep.


I'm not smart enough to do a 'side by side' but here's the link to the current pay charts:

http://www.dfas.mil/militarypay/militarypaytables/2008MilitaryPayCharts35.pdf

Sgt Leprechaun
02-28-08, 04:35 PM
Couple more before I call it a day:

Corporal, worn on a single sleeve, likely dating from the 1870's.

http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/uploads//monthly_02_2008/post-837-1203364391.jpg

Sergeant:

http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/uploads//monthly_02_2008/post-837-1203364585.jpg

1st Sgt:

http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/uploads//monthly_02_2008/post-837-1203319594.jpg

Sgt Leprechaun
02-28-08, 04:37 PM
Quartermaster Sergeant
http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/uploads//monthly_02_2008/post-837-1203319798.jpg


SgtMaj

http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/uploads//monthly_02_2008/post-837-1203319867.jpg

All images courtesy of HH Booker and the US Militaria forum.

bucksgted
02-28-08, 04:58 PM
Speaking of pay, I was just looking at my DD 214 total payment on separation: $151.30 (19 FEB 1960 when I left active duty). $104.10 of that was for mileage from El Toro to Baytown, TX (home of record). I was paid two days lump sum for leave settlement. Now, if my math is correct, that means I was making $28.60 per day as a buck Sergeant in 1960. Nice wages for the dark ages. LMAO

Ceya
03-16-08, 04:09 PM
http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/uploads//monthly_02_2008/post-837-1203541739.jpg

Courtesy of HH Booker. Love the pay scale. This is a pocket chart, BTW which is why it's so small. Dated 1939.


This is why they also call MSgt "TOP", Top of the enlisted chain.

I went through this also , meeting Marines from this era.

Charles Nelson (RIP) was one.

S/F<
CEYA!

Ed Palmer
03-16-08, 04:33 PM
Speaking of pay, I was just looking at my DD 214 total payment on separation: $151.30 (19 FEB 1960 when I left active duty). $104.10 of that was for mileage from El Toro to Baytown, TX (home of record). I was paid two days lump sum for leave settlement. Now, if my math is correct, that means I was making $28.60 per day as a buck Sergeant in 1960. Nice wages for the dark ages. LMAO
Ed
I only went 2 miles to school but I think you should chech your math

280.60 a day comes to $858.00 a month
I think I was still a Cpl then and my base pay was only 120.00 a month

Ed

Ceya
03-16-08, 04:38 PM
Ed
I only went 2 miles to school but I think you should chech your math

280.60 a day comes to $858.00 a month
I think I was still a Cpl then and my base pay was only 120.00 a month

Ed

SSgt,

He states 28.60.

S/F,
CEYA!
81s

Ed Palmer
03-16-08, 05:29 PM
SSgt,

He states 28.60.

S/F,
CEYA!
81s
was making $28.60 per day

Ed
28.60 times 30 days equals 858.00 a month I put in an extra 0 and didn't catch it sorry bout that

bucksgted
03-16-08, 10:30 PM
was making $28.60 per day

Ed
28.60 times 30 days equals 858.00 a month I put in an extra 0 and didn't catch it sorry bout that
Not to worry, Ed. I only brought up the salary thing since we were discussing "old" stuff and I can relate. I guess $10,296.00 per year base pay wasn't too bad in 1960, though.

ExPISCDI83
03-17-08, 12:39 AM
AWESOME! I have few questions though:

1. Who came up with the current upward pointing chevron and rocker like we have today? The Marine Corps or army? (Remember that they used to be pointing down until about WWI.)

2. Do they still have left and right chevrons in todays USMC?

Story: Once upon a time (in DI School in 1982) I thought I was A.J. and a Squad Instructor (The DI student's DI) came to me in inspection and gigged me for one of my chevrons being on the wrong sleeve. (HUH?) Well, I asked someone who I thought was "in the know about such things i.e. the Chief Instructor of the PISC DI School who educated me that, although rarely enforced, there was a left and right chevron (or used to be). The difference is the crossed rifles. Evidently, if you look really close, one of the rifles is embroidered on top of the other one, and the top rifle should be pointing forward. Of course I just had to look at the 65+ sets of chevrons that my classmates had on their shirts and sure enough. Some had it right! Some had it wrong like me. This was the first time I had heard of this little tid-bit of Marine Corps Trivia info. I never did look it up since, as far as I was concerned, if the Chief Instructor of the Parris Island DI School said it was so, then that was good enough for me. Since then, each time I got new chevrons, I made sure that the rifles were pointing in the correct direction, even if I had to tear open the packages in the PX and get what I wanted. Sometimes they were packaged correctly, but most of the time they weren't.

Comments??????

Semper Fi and have fun checking your chevrons! :-)

jerryd6818
03-17-08, 09:33 AM
Speaking of pay, I was just looking at my DD 214 total payment on separation: $151.30 (19 FEB 1960 when I left active duty). $104.10 of that was for mileage from El Toro to Baytown, TX (home of record). I was paid two days lump sum for leave settlement. Now, if my math is correct, that means I was making $28.60 per day as a buck Sergeant in 1960. Nice wages for the dark ages. LMAO

According to this pay chart (effective 1June1958) http://www.dfas.mil/militarypay/militarypaytables/militarypaypriorrates/1958.pdf as a Sgt E-4 over three, you were making $160 per month or $5.33 per day for a 30 day month. Considering you had "free" housing, food and transportation, that was a pretty good wage for 1958.

At that time, my dad was supporting a family of four on the same pay (a dollar an hour) and paid for his own housing, food and transportation.

The Few. The Proud.
Jerry D.

SGT7477
03-17-08, 11:06 AM
Not to worry, Ed. I only brought up the salary thing since we were discussing "old" stuff and I can relate. I guess $10,296.00 per year base pay wasn't too bad in 1960, though.
How did that work you made more than I did in the middle 70's?:flag:

SGT7477
03-17-08, 11:11 AM
AWESOME! I have few questions though:

1. Who came up with the current upward pointing chevron and rocker like we have today? The Marine Corps or army? (Remember that they used to be pointing down until about WWI.)

2. Do they still have left and right chevrons in todays USMC?

Story: Once upon a time (in DI School in 1982) I thought I was A.J. and a Squad Instructor (The DI student's DI) came to me in inspection and gigged me for one of my chevrons being on the wrong sleeve. (HUH?) Well, I asked someone who I thought was "in the know about such things i.e. the Chief Instructor of the PISC DI School who educated me that, although rarely enforced, there was a left and right chevron (or used to be). The difference is the crossed rifles. Evidently, if you look really close, one of the rifles is embroidered on top of the other one, and the top rifle should be pointing forward. Of course I just had to look at the 65+ sets of chevrons that my classmates had on their shirts and sure enough. Some had it right! Some had it wrong like me. This was the first time I had heard of this little tid-bit of Marine Corps Trivia info. I never did look it up since, as far as I was concerned, if the Chief Instructor of the Parris Island DI School said it was so, then that was good enough for me. Since then, each time I got new chevrons, I made sure that the rifles were pointing in the correct direction, even if I had to tear open the packages in the PX and get what I wanted. Sometimes they were packaged correctly, but most of the time they weren't.

Comments??????

Semper Fi and have fun checking your chevrons! :-)
I just got some chevrons for the dress blues and they are the same.:flag:

Sgt Leprechaun
03-18-08, 08:26 AM
AWESOME! I have few questions though:

1. Who came up with the current upward pointing chevron and rocker like we have today? The Marine Corps or army? (Remember that they used to be pointing down until about WWI.)

2. Do they still have left and right chevrons in todays USMC?

Story: Once upon a time (in DI School in 1982) I thought I was A.J. and a Squad Instructor (The DI student's DI) came to me in inspection and gigged me for one of my chevrons being on the wrong sleeve. (HUH?) Well, I asked someone who I thought was "in the know about such things i.e. the Chief Instructor of the PISC DI School who educated me that, although rarely enforced, there was a left and right chevron (or used to be). The difference is the crossed rifles. Evidently, if you look really close, one of the rifles is embroidered on top of the other one, and the top rifle should be pointing forward. Of course I just had to look at the 65+ sets of chevrons that my classmates had on their shirts and sure enough. Some had it right! Some had it wrong like me. This was the first time I had heard of this little tid-bit of Marine Corps Trivia info. I never did look it up since, as far as I was concerned, if the Chief Instructor of the Parris Island DI School said it was so, then that was good enough for me. Since then, each time I got new chevrons, I made sure that the rifles were pointing in the correct direction, even if I had to tear open the packages in the PX and get what I wanted. Sometimes they were packaged correctly, but most of the time they weren't.

Comments??????

Semper Fi and have fun checking your chevrons! :-)


An interesting question to be sure.

Chevrons went to the 'up' posistion basically by 'custom' and for several reasons:

1: Economy. It's cheaper and easier to make the smaller chevrons than the large ones.

2: Large chevrons make you a nice target.

**
As to the 'different arms', I have NEVER heard that one. While in WWI chevrons that carried a specific designator did go on different arms (so that eagles or emblems faced the wearers front), modern day chevrons with the crossed rifles were never intended to go on different arms. While the rifles may overlap differently, dollars will get you donuts the 'different arms' question/idea was something that someone came up with in order to 'look more uniform' or something else.

That having been said, I'm willing to eat crow here if someone can show me a Marine Corps Order stating otherwise.

ssgtedusmc
03-28-08, 01:27 AM
Great post Sgt. Leprechaun, thanks!

JRHD72
05-20-08, 06:12 PM
I just sold a set of Dress Blues with the cooks staff sergeant chevrons 3 up with a flat bottom rocker. Inside pocet was marked Kanahoe Bay 1937. But I could not find a name. The legion was gonna throw them out!!!! Stooopid azoles. I held onto them for 15 years. Very nice condition. The person that got them is also a Marine.

JRHD72
05-20-08, 06:15 PM
Interesting area of research. Perusing the casualty list at Pearl I found Marines with , what was to me, wierd rank designatiions. THANKS FOR POSTING!!

CplKJSpevak
05-20-08, 06:26 PM
Sgt....Thanks, Good job,Really cool......Which ones did they wear at the battle of Gettysburg? :)

Zulu 36
05-20-08, 07:47 PM
Sgt....Thanks, Good job,Really cool......Which ones did they wear at the battle of Gettysburg? :)

Check with bucksgted, he might have personal knowledge. :D

BR34
08-11-09, 09:09 AM
This is some good info. I just learned a lot.

This deserves to be stickied!

ameriken
08-12-09, 10:38 PM
Awesome thread Lep, fascinating history of the Corps rank structure. Interesting how it changed every few years from 1912 to 1959, yet our current structure has remained the same for the past 50 years.

Is there any reason why it formerly changed so frequently, or why our current structure has withstood the test of time?

GIrene
08-12-09, 10:43 PM
http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/uploads//monthly_02_2008/post-837-1203541739.jpg

Courtesy of HH Booker. Love the pay scale. This is a pocket chart, BTW which is why it's so small. Dated 1939.

To explain the confusion over the 1stSgt having two rockers. Prior to the war in or about 1942ish to be exact the Army and Marines had 1st Sergeant listed as a "Grade 2" Hence why on that chart they are only making the same as a Technical Sergeant. In 1942 the pay structure was revised (Pvts would make $50, Pfcs $54 for example) and 1stSgt became a "Grade 1" rank and the extra rocker was added to put it on "equal footing" with MSgt. Also the Marine ranks were adjusted into their Line (rockers) and Staff (bars) designations including the addition of Gunnery Sergeant, Master Gunnery Sergeant, and Platoon Sergeant.

Also dealing with Master Sergeant. It is the top rank for the Marines/Army of this time period. Sergeant Major was a billet (for both services) during the war and never an official rank until later.

GIrene
08-12-09, 10:48 PM
Awesome thread Lep, fascinating history of the Corps rank structure. Interesting how it changed every few years from 1912 to 1959, yet our current structure has remained the same for the past 50 years.

Is there any reason why it formerly changed so frequently, or why our current structure has withstood the test of time?

Simplification. The WWI-1920's structure had more ranks then we've seen here. It was a nightmare when you had Bugle Sergeant 2nd Grade, 1st Class (over exaggeration). But naturally this made it hard to keep things uniform and you had blokes with stripes and insignia of all varieties everywhere.

I think also the War Department had a movement to standardize pay amongst the services as you can see they all cut down on their originally large amounts of ranks/titles and eventually came to a simple system come WW2 which was toyed with until everything was fully standardized under the DoD.

bucksgted
08-12-09, 11:09 PM
Awesome thread Lep, fascinating history of the Corps rank structure. Interesting how it changed every few years from 1912 to 1959, yet our current structure has remained the same for the past 50 years.

Is there any reason why it formerly changed so frequently, or why our current structure has withstood the test of time?

Look at rank structure from the bottom up, look at their pay and look at control. I can't speak for the times prior to mine, but in the mid to late 50's technology was literally booming. The only way to keep "knowledge" in the Corps was to pay more. At the time the only way to pay more was to promote. This created a very top heavy Marine Corps. Compare rank and pay grade of the mid 50s to today. Everybody promoted in 1959 and later, after PFC, got a one level pay raise without the accompanying "stripes". Bringing the L/Cpl position back, let the Corps pay more, but just as importantly, it automatically reduced the numbers of NCOs. When you look at cutting scores in todays world, you'll see a concerted effort to maintain the ratios of Pvts to PFCs, to Cpls, to Sgts, etc. etc. All of this has put the Corps in a better "top down" position. The Marine Corps is no different from any other business when it comes to pay and control. OUR BUSINESS, however, is a little different from most others. LMAO

This concludes today's lecture. Class dismissed. I'll take questions after class for those that would like more discussion. LOL

Sgt Leprechaun
08-12-09, 11:15 PM
Thanks Ken.

GIrene pretty much nails it. As does bucksgt.

Basically, the move to 'standardize' rank and pay service wide led to the changes, circa about 1958, to the system we have today. The Marine Corps has been loath to mess with it, other services, not so much (the Air Force is a perfect example, a 'Sgt' in 1983, for example, wore a different chevron than a Senior Airman, even though both were the same pay grade. Today there is no 'Sgt' rank....)

ameriken
08-12-09, 11:19 PM
Thanks GIrene, Ed, and Lep. Quite a fascinating history lesson. :thumbup:

MLMonk
08-13-09, 06:11 PM
If those were the ranks of 80years ago, imagine the rank system 80years from now?

And great post, learned a lot about how the ranks were back in the early 1900's. And would anyone be able to clarify why there was so many band related ranks?

Rocky C
08-13-09, 06:19 PM
Great Job Sgt. Lep.
Thats was a lot of work.
Thanks to all who contributed!!!
Semper Fi,
Rocky

GIrene
08-13-09, 06:42 PM
If those were the ranks of 80years ago, imagine the rank system 80years from now?

And great post, learned a lot about how the ranks were back in the early 1900's. And would anyone be able to clarify why there was so many band related ranks?

Musicians and Cooks were traditionally given their own names. Back in the days when Mess Sergeant was a rank back at least in the mid-19th Century. In WW2 the ranks and insignia were the same but the titles were different for Musicians and Cooks... I'll see if I can dig them up.

Sgt Leprechaun
08-13-09, 09:33 PM
Glad you guys are enjoying it!

Musicians and Cooks were considered 'speciality' rates of a different order/class than just 'regular' Marines. (Marine Band still does this today BTW). Because these skills were not something that just any Marine could do, they were given their own rank structure and insignia.

Each unit had a specified number, and rank, of cooks and bandsmen (including buglers). Each of those specialities had their own NCO and higher ranks, allowing for promotions (which were largely based on both availability and merit).

SgtThrasher
08-13-09, 09:45 PM
Interesting thread Sgt.Lep,I hope crossed rifles will remain forever.I think it defines a Marine.

GIrene
08-13-09, 09:51 PM
AHA found it:

http://www.ww2gyrene.org/rank_structure.htm

Very interesting in all too!

Shrink
08-13-09, 10:15 PM
[QUOTE=Sgt Leprechaun;321692]Enlisted rank insignia 1946-1959


http://mujweb.atlas.cz/kultura/usmc/imaservice/rank07b.gif


Rank description - "Private" has no rank insignia
1. Private First Class
2. Corporal
3. Sergeant
4. Staff Sergeant
5. Gunnery Sergeant
6. Master Sergeant
7. First Sergeant
8. Sergeant Major

The information and the chevrons shown above require explanation, since they don't begin to tell the whole story. This is what happened on 1Dec1946:

1. Until the latter date there were 148 enlisted ranks in the Corps. Now you're gonna say, "He must mean MOSs." Nope, I mean ranks. To designate particular skills, the equivalent of what we now call "MOSs" we had SSNs, or Specification Serial Numbers. A 584 was the SSN assigned to Sergeants Major. 585 assigned to 1stSgts, and so on.

2. So, should a SgtsMajor be convicted by a "Deck Court Martial" under the Articles for the Government of the Navy (aka to one and all as "Rocks and Shoals....") and was reduced by one rank, he became a 1stSgt....but since both SgtsMajor and 1stSgts were first pay grade, the busted SgtMajor lost not a dime in monthly salary.

3. Of course when the Corps went to 7 enlisted ranks from 148 on 1Dec46, all of the foregoing changed. From that point on a reduction in rank meant just that, and the convicted Marine busted from E7 to E6 lost pay in the process. Thus between 1946 and 1952 we had no 1stSgts or SgtsMajor so far as rank was concerned. Of course, Marines acting in those billets were so addressed.

4. In 1952 the Corps reinstituted the rank of 1stSgt. A promotion list was promulgated by HQMC listing those who had been selected for this rank. Note we still had not reinstituted the rank of SgtsMajor. The first name on the list of newly promoted 1stSgts was an old friend....Russell Jerimiah Bogomanero.

5. All of this was terribly unfair to those Marines who had held the ranks of 1stSgt and SgtMajor prior to 1Dec46. On the latter date, as I've tried to explain above, Marines in those ranks were reduced ADMINISTRATIVELY by one rank. Thus, I've always held, that they should have been first in line when the rank was reinstituted.

6. I should mention that during and immediately after WW II many of us wore chevrons on only the left arm. This was due to a shortage of chevrons, and into the 1950s some of the old salts insisted on wearing their chevron on the left sleeve only. At the base of that was that during that period the Navy had right and left arm rates. Generally the deck crew and non specialists wore their rank on their left sleeve, while the specialists wore their "crows" on their right sleeve.

7. I must also mention that after 1Dec46 we were ordered to remove all division, wing, FMF and other patches. That was a damned sad day for those of us who felt those "patches," (We also called them "Blazes") were as much a part of us as our hands and feet.

Respectfully, Semper Fidelis, Sully

Sgt Leprechaun
08-13-09, 10:39 PM
THANKS very much for that history lesson. VERY impressive, sir.

Shrink
08-16-09, 04:29 PM
THANKS very much for that history lesson. VERY impressive, sir.

Sgt Leprechaun:

The process of "now you is" and "now you ain't" is a difficult one to follow. Since my own background prior to being commissioned led to a number of staff NCOs in particular serving as mentors to a youngster who just might be turned into something. In other words, my attitudes toward everything "Marine" were formed long before I pinned on the "Diaper Pins" of a Second John.

By the time I'd returned from Korea under the HQMC order that "Three Purple Hearts and you're out of the game" I was a very salty 2dLt. Commissioned with a DOR of 4Jun48 I knew at the time that it took 3 full years before you could pin on those silver bars which would remove a 2dLt from the boot group. On reporting to my new duty station I handed my OQJ (Officers Qualification Jacket) to the post SgtMajor. The latter immediately took it in to the CO, with the SgtMajor adding that another "Snotty nosed 2dLt was reporting aboard." When the SgtMajor returned to his desk I "braced" him (stood him at attention) and proceeded to tell him that "GD it, he was talking about a Marine who had acted as SgtMajor of the 5th Marines" and I was not about to take any guff from him as to my status in the Corps. This, of course, caused a bit of a scene but I'd gotten my point across. Never again did I hear myself referred to as a "Snotty nosed 2dLt."

I mentioned Rusell Jerimiah Bogomanero in my initial reply. Let me explain my relationship with that individual. "Bogey" as we all called him had been the PltSgt of my friend and classmate 2dLt Jack Nolan in E/2/5. He'd been wounded at the First Battle of the Naktong on the Pusan Perimeter on 17Aug50. Like so many of us who had been wounded on the Perimeter, Bogey ended up in the Naval Hospital at Yokosuka. It was there that I first met him and immediately formed a friendship which remained fast until Bogey's death some years ago.

On 15Sep50 some 50 or so Marines from the 5thMarines who had been wounded were discharged from the Naval Hospital. At the time the MC planned on setting up an Indoctrination Camp for Marines newly arrived in the Far East as putative replacements for the 1stMarDiv. Not a dumb idea, since every one of us was well acquainted with how expert the enemy was in plying his skills in infantry combat. On the Japanese train from Yokosuka to Kobe, from where we'd transfer to Camp Otsu, I talked to Bogey since he was the senior enlisted Marine on the train, about a possible escape from what we considered dreary duty indeed. The result was that some 50 of those Marines agreed that if a way could be found to get back to their outfit in Korea they'd be happy to go "AWOL" and be damned to their orders to Otsu. To make a long story short, through the "Old Boys" School I wangled transportation on the ship carrying the 1stBn of the 7th Marines (LtCol Ray Davis, Cmdg). The 7th Marines, as many of you know, did not make the Inchon Landing. They were initially just a little too late to make the landing, but then there was one hell of a typhoon that hit Kobe and the damage to ships and cargo held them up further.

Whatever, we snuck aboard the APA and off to Korea we went. Our adventures when we landed at Inchon on 22Sep50, a week after D Day included stopping by the DivCP then at Ascom City, and assured them that we were not deserters. Whatever, by that time Bogey and I were fast friends.

When the 1stSgts list was published and Bogey was first on the list we were both stationed at Quanitico. I was the AsstProvMarshal, and my ProvSgtMajor was another old friend of mine from my enlisted service, Bob Cornelly. Bob and Bogey were also old friends, and when Bob saw that Bogey was #1 on the list he brought it to me, and I immediately called Bogey. The latter was then the Acting 1stSgt of a Basic School Company in one of the outlying camps in the Guadalcanal Area of Quantico.

When he answered the telephone as "1stSgt Bogomanero" I immediately told him that he was a dumb SOB who couldn't even read or write, was a sorry excuse for a Marine, and wouldn't make a pimple on the derrière of a real 1stSgt. On the other end of the telephone I could hear Bogey sputtering and struggling to get out his reply to the insults I was heaping on him, and he finally said something to this effect: "This had better be Sully because no other SOB in the Corps could get away with such insults." When he calmed down I did deliver my full congratulations to him.

Bogey made W4 before he retired, and what a picture he made in blues with all of his badges, of which he had a hatful. He retired to Chicago, his home town, and there bought the bar which had always been his objective. I could tell a dozen stories about Bogey, his wife Patsy, and their six daughters. Bogey died of cancer some 20 years ago. There may have been other Marines who could have matched Bogey, but there sure aren't very many of them IMHO.

I should have and didn't congratulate Sgt Leprechaun for digging back into the history of our Corps and his initial posts on enlisted rank structure. Respectfully, Semper Fidelis, Sully

Sgt Leprechaun
08-17-09, 08:50 PM
Thank YOU, again, for the informative and great post. THAT is what this site is all about.

I was remiss in not greeting you, either.

"Welcome aboard", sir.

Shrink
08-18-09, 03:27 PM
Thank YOU, again, for the informative and great post. THAT is what this site is all about.

I was remiss in not greeting you, either.

"Welcome aboard", sir.

Sgt Leprechaun:
Finally found a picture of "Bogey." He was in 2dLt Jack Nolan's Platoon in E/2/5. Bogey is in the left lower Marine, and with his rather spectacular proboscis, a thing of might and beauty, he is rather easy to spot.

The young Marine who looks as though he might be a Native American at the right top of the picture was named Postoak. When I first saw him at the Naval Hospital in Yokosuka, I glanced down at his "Bed Card" and saw that he was being treated for a broken collar bone, and a exit wound, right armpit. Ya gotta admit that an exit wound without an entrance wound is somewhat rare. Postoak also had a black and blue mark at the right corner of his mouth. There was where the bullet probably entered, stuck something, ricocheted down, broke his collar bone, and exited his arm pit. I've seen some strange wounds, but that was one of the strangest.
http://lh3.ggpht.com/_fUsdlXhM7FQ/SosKeSr6wII/AAAAAAAAGss/1SwqjGx5q1Q/s512/Jack%20Nolan%20Plt.jpg

Respectfully, Semper Fidelis, Sully

Sgt Leprechaun
08-18-09, 11:41 PM
Great story...and photo to go with...!

Thanks for sharing that. I see what you mean about 'Bogey'..hard to miss if you know what you are looking for!

I also note something that 'popular' "knowledge" contradicts...it appears to me that NONE of these Marines in the photo are sporting the Eagle Globe and Anchor on their helmet covers! As a military collector myself, I enjoy seeing what is/was actually worn and not what other collectors 'believe'.

Interesting about that wound too....that was an odd shot for sure...

FutureDevilDog1
08-24-09, 09:59 AM
very intereting. thank you.

bagle133
10-22-09, 08:40 PM
haha hi im interseted in the marines! yes i no my spelling sucks! well im only 13! haha. but i was wondering what the most bad part of the marines and i was reading earlier and was talking to my friend about the female DIs have the guys ever though tht the girls have more emosions then the men and tht we have our lil friend tht comes once a mouth!!!??? haha just think of ur wife wen shes stressed! and my cousin and i were going to join together and well hes a guy and im a girl, but wat are the chances that we can be in the same boot camp area thingy???:banana: omg its a bananna!