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greensideout
12-23-07, 02:47 PM
Gun owners 'get stabbed in back'
'Veterans Disarmament Act on way to president'

Posted: December 23, 2007
1:00 a.m. Eastern

© 2007 WorldNetDaily.com


Congress has given gun owners in America a Christmas gift: a blade in the back, according to officials with Gun Owners of America.

The organization said the plan supported by Sen. Chuck Schumer, D-N.Y., and others, and known as the Veterans Disarmament Act by opponents, is being forwarded now to President Bush.

While other gun groups have endorsed H.R. 2640, a comprehensive plan to expand the powers of the Brady Bill gun restriction plan, Gun Owners of America has opposed it vigorously, and described its provisions for banning individuals, especially veterans, from owning guns as unreasonable.

"The core of the bill's problems is section 101(c)(1)(C), which makes you a 'prohibited person' on the basis of a 'medical finding of disability,' so long as a veteran had an 'opportunity' for some sort of 'hearing' before some 'lawful authority' (other than a court)," the organization said in a new criticism of the plan. "Presumably, this 'lawful authority' could even be the psychiatrist himself," the organization said.

"Note that unlike with an accused murderer, the hearing doesn't have to occur. The 'lawful authority' doesn't have to be unbiased. The veteran is not necessarily entitled to an attorney – much less an attorney financed by the government," the group said.

Gun Owners of America earlier launched a campaign encouraging citizens to call their U.S. senators and ask them to oppose the bill that could be described as "disarmament by diagnosis."

The Gun Owners also were joined by other organizations in opposing the proposal, including the Military Order of the Purple Heart, and the American Legion.

"The American Legion, the nation's largest wartime veterans' service organization, strongly opposes specific provisions of H.R. 2640 … that would unilaterally abrogate the rights of certain service-connected disabled veterans to own firearms, a right guaranteed by the Second Amendment," the group said in a newly released statement.

The Schumer scheme would update federal law in the United States concerning the ownership of guns, and restrictions on those who can own firearms. A decades-old law creates a ban on gun ownership for anyone who has been adjudicated to be mentally defective, Eric Pratt, a spokesman for Gun Owners, told WND. It was intended to be used in cases when a person is declared innocent by reason of insanity in criminal cases.

However, the proposed update would allow that "adjudication" to be determined not only by a court but by any competent authority, which could include a Veterans Administration psychologist, any panel of psychologists or a wide range of other possible "competent authorities."

It also would automatically include people on a federal no-gun-ownership limit who have been diagnosed with some behavior-related childhood conditions, and in a provision that is especially objectionable to the Gun Owners organization, any veterans diagnosed with Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder.

Pratt's organization also has published an open letter to members of the National Rifle Association, which has not been opposing the legislation on the grounds there are provisions that would allow an improperly classified person to "regain" his or her Second Amendment rights.

The letter, from GOA founder and chairman Sen. H.L. "Bill" Richardson, Executive Director Larry Pratt, and legal counsel Michael Hammond, noted the three include two Life Members of the NRA and one who was a paid consultant for the NRA.

Rep. Carolyn McCarthy, D-N.Y., announcing a provision to allow doctors to ban people from owning guns

"In fact, over the last 30 years, GOA and its staff have worked with NRA to facilitate most of our pro-gun victories…" the group said. "But those who staff the NRA, without consulting the membership, have now made a series of strange and dangerous alliances with the likes of Chuck Schumer, Carolyn McCarthy, and Pat Leahy. And we believe that, if allowed to continue, this will produce anti-gun policies which the NRA staff will bitterly regret."

"What the bill does is to lock in – statutorily – huge numbers of additional law-abiding Americans who will now be denied the right to own a firearm," Pratt's organization said. "And then it 'graciously' allows these newly disarmed Americans to spend tens of thousands of dollars for a long-shot change to regain the gun rights this very bill takes away from them."

"Let's make one thing clear: the efforts begun during the Clinton presidency to disarm battle-scarred veterans – promoted by the Brady Anti-Gun Campaign – is illegal and morally reprehensible. But section 101(c)(1)(C) of H.R. 2640 would rubber-stamp those illegal actions. Over 140,000 law-abiding veterans would be statutorily barred from possessing firearms."

The organization, however, said it would continue the battle. "GOA wants to repeal the gun-free zones that disarm law-abiding Americans and repeal the other gun restrictions that are on the books. That is the answer to Virginia Tech. Unfortunately, the House and Senate chose the path of imposing more gun control."

jerryk
12-23-07, 04:22 PM
let me get this right ,if you a veteran you can be banned from owning a gun is that right, i hope not

d c taveapont
12-23-07, 05:27 PM
only if ya have mental problems....

bigdog43701
12-23-07, 06:00 PM
dumb question...don't all of us who were in combat suffer some mental problems?

OLE SARG
12-23-07, 07:58 PM
schumer is a ****ing idiot!!!!!!!!! He's the ******* with a mental defect, the ****ing jerk OFF!!!!!!!!!!!

SEMPER FI,

hrscowboy
12-23-07, 08:41 PM
The way i understand this if your seen for any Mental problems your name will be submitted to a database and you will not be able to purchase or own weapons until you are cleared from the illness.. Like thats really gonna happen...

3077India
12-23-07, 08:56 PM
BYE BYE 2nd Amendment!!!!:cry:

<s>Amendment II: A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.</s>

There now isn't that better?:p NOT!!!

Sgt Leprechaun
12-24-07, 01:18 PM
Scummer, I mean 'schumer' has been a gun ban advocate for as long as he's been in congress.

Let's hope Bush has the sense NOT to sign this POS legislation.

FistFu68
12-24-07, 01:36 PM
:evilgrin: IF THIS COMES TOO PASS,SEND ME BACK TOO VIETNAM;AND GIVE ME BACK MY LICENSE TOO KILL.WHERE I CAN LIVE A NORMAL LIFE OF SEARCH AND DESTROY,STINGRAY MISSIONS AND CUTTING FUCING COMMIE EAR'S OFF.GET TOO OWN ANY KIND OF FIREARM IN THE ARSENAL,AND NOT WORRY A'BOUT BE LABELED AS ANYTHING BUT MR.NICE GUY!!!:beer: BEAU COU DINKY DOU:iwo:

ivalis
12-24-07, 02:26 PM
nut jobs with guns, sounds like a good idea to me (not).

Finger
12-24-07, 03:04 PM
<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; PADDING-BOTTOM: 1em" align=middle>From The NRA/ILA Websight.


Background Checks/ NICS
</TD></TR><TR><TD class=newsHead1 align=middle>The NICS Improvement Bill: Myth and Reality</TD></TR><TR><TD> </TD></TR><TR><TD class=copy>Some opponents of the “NICS Improvement Amendments Act” (H.R. 2640) have spent the last several months painting a picture of the bill that would rightly terrify gun owners—if it was true.
The opponents’ motive seems to be a totally unrealistic hope of undercutting or repealing the National Instant Criminal Background Check System (NICS) by ensuring that its records are inaccurate and incomplete. But make no mistake—an inaccurate and incomplete system only serves to delay and burden lawful gun buyers, while failing to screen those who are prohibited from possessing firearms under existing law.
Nonetheless, opponents of H.R. 2640 continue to spread misconceptions about the bill. The following are some of the common myths.
MYTH: “Millions of Americans will awake one day and find that they are suddenly barred from buying guns based upon decades old convictions of ‘misdemeanor crimes of domestic violence,’ or mental health adjudications that were later rescinded or expired.”
FACT: H.R. 2640 does not create any new classes of “prohibited persons.” The NRA does not, and will not, support the creation of new classes of prohibited persons. H.R. 2640 only requires reporting of available records on people who are prohibited from possessing firearms under existing law.
Also, H.R. 2640—for the first time—specifies that mental health adjudications may not be reported if they’ve been expunged, or if the person has received relief from the adjudication under the procedures required by the bill. In those cases, the mental adjudication or commitment “shall be deemed not to have occurred,” and therefore would not prohibit the person from possessing firearms.
MYTH: “As many as a quarter to a third of returning Iraq veterans could be prohibited from owning firearms—based solely on a diagnosis of post-traumatic stress disorder.”
FACT: The only veterans who would be reported to NICS under this bill due to mental health issues are—as with civilians—those who are adjudicated as incompetent or involuntarily committed to a mental institution.
A diagnosis alone is never enough; the person must be “adjudicated as a mental defective,” which is a legal term that implies a fair hearing process. The Veterans’ Administration has regulations that provide veterans with an opportunity for a hearing on those decisions, and an opportunity for multiple appeals—just as a civilian does in state court. Any records that don’t meet this standard could not be reported to NICS, and any deficient records that have already been provided would have to be removed.
Veteran and journalist Larry Scott (operator of the website www.vawatchdog.org (http://www.vawatchdog.org/)) calls the allegation about veterans a “huge campaign of misinformation and scare tactics.” Scott points out that thousands of veterans who receive mental health care through the VA—but have not been found incompetent or involuntarily committed—are not currently reported to NICS, and wouldn’t be reported under H.R. 2640. (Scott’s analysis is available online at http://www.*************/opinion/0,15202,151321_1,00.html?wh=wh (http://www.*************/opinion/0,15202,151321_1,00.html?wh=wh).)
Last, but not least, H.R. 2640 also provides veterans and others their first opportunity in 15 years to seek “relief from disabilities” through either state or federal programs. Currently, no matter how successfully a person responds to treatment, there is no way for a person “adjudicated” incompetent or involuntarily committed to an institution to seek restoration of the right to possess a firearm.
MYTH: A child who has been diagnosed with attention deficit and hyperactivity disorder “can be banned for life from ever owning a gun as an adult.”
“Your ailing grandfather could have his entire gun collection seized, based only on a diagnosis of Alzheimer`s (and there goes the family inheritance).”
FACT: Again, a psychiatric or medical diagnosis alone is not an “adjudication” or “commitment.”
Critics base their concern on BATFE regulations that define an “adjudication” to include a decision by a “court, board, commission, or other lawful authority.” They claim any doctor could potentially be a “lawful authority.”
They are wrong. Not even the Clinton Administration took such an extreme position. In fact, the term “lawful authority” was apparently intended to cover various types of government panels that are similar to “courts, boards, or commissions.” Basic principles of legal interpretation require reading it that way. The term also doesn’t override the basic constitutional protections that come into play in decisions about a person’s mental health.
Finally, records of voluntary treatment also would not be available under federal and state health privacy laws, which H.R. 2640 also does not override.
MYTH: People who get voluntary drug or alcohol treatment would be prohibited from possessing guns.
FACT: Again, current BATFE regulations make clear that voluntary commitments do not affect a person’s right to arms. NRA (and, surely, the medical community) would vehemently oppose any proposal that would punish or deter a person getting needed voluntary treatment.
MYTH: A Pennsylvania man lost his right to possess firearms due to an “offhanded, tongue-in-cheek remark.”
FACT: This case does not hold up to close investigation. The person made comments on a college campus that were interpreted as threatening in the wake of the Virginia Tech tragedy; he was then briefly sent to a mental institution.
Opponents, however, have failed to mention that the man had been the subject of chronic complaints from his neighbors. (The “filth, mold, [and] mildew” in his apartment were so bad that the town declared it unfit for human habitation.) After his brief hospital stay, he was arrested for previously pointing a gun at his landlord and wiretapping his neighbors.
Despite these facts, it also appears he was only committed for a brief period of observation. Current BATFE regulations say that the term “committed to a mental institution” “does not include a person in a mental institution for observation.” Therefore, even in this extreme case, the person may not ultimately be prohibited from possessing firearms. Second Amendment scholar Clayton Cramer describes this case in a recent Shotgun News column (available online at http://www.claytoncramer.com/PopularMagazines/HR%202640.htm (http://www.claytoncramer.com/PopularMagazines/HR%202640.htm)) and reaches the same conclusion.
MYTH: “Relief from disability” provisions would require gun owners to spend a fortune in legal fees to win restoration of rights.
FACT: Relief programs are not that complicated. When BATFE (then just BATF) operated the relief from disabilities program, the application was a simple two-page form that a person could submit on his own behalf. The bureau approved about 60% of valid applications from 1981-91.
Pro-gun attorney Evan Nappen points out that the most extreme anti-gun groups now oppose H.R. 2640 simply because of the relief provisions. Nappen includes a sampling of their comments in his article on the bill (“Enough NRA Bashing”), available online at http://www.pgnh.org/enough_nra_bashing (http://www.pgnh.org/enough_nra_bashing).
MYTH: The bill’s “relief from disability” provisions are useless because Congress has defunded the “relief” program.
FACT: The current ban on processing relief applications wouldn’t affect this bill. The appropriations rider (promoted in 1992 by Sen. Frank Lautenberg (D-N.J.)) only restricts expenditures by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives. H.R. 2640 requires relief programs to be set up and operated by agencies that make adjudications or commitments related to people’s mental health. BATFE doesn’t do that, but other agencies—especially the Veterans’ Administration—do. Naturally, NRA would strongly oppose any effort to remove funding from new “relief” programs set up under this widely supported bill.
MYTH: The bill must be anti-gun, because it was co-sponsored by anti-gun Members of Congress.
FACT: By this unreasonable standard, any bill with broad support in Congress must be a bad idea. NRA believes in working with legislators of all political persuasions if the end result will benefit lawful gun owners. Anti-gun Senator Barbara Boxer (D-Calif.) supported arming airline pilots against terrorists, but that program was (and is) a good idea nonetheless.
MYTH: The bill “was hatched in secret …and passed out of the House without even a roll call.”
FACT: No one asked for a roll call vote. This is not unusual. The House voted on H.R. 2640 under “suspension of the rules,” which allows passing widely supported bills by a two-thirds vote. (This procedure also helps prevent amendments—which in this case helped prevent anti-gun legislators from turning the bill into a “Christmas tree” for their agenda.)
After a debate in which only one House member opposed the bill, the House passed the bill by a voice vote. There is never a recorded vote in the House without a request from a House member. No one asked for one on H.R. 2640, again showing the widespread support for the bill.
</TD></TR><TR><TD> </TD></TR><TR><TD class=copy>Posted: 10/5/2007 12:00:00 AM</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

FistFu68
12-24-07, 03:24 PM
:usmc: WHAT ARE YOU REALLY SAYING "IVALIS"?THAT YOU'R FELLOW VET'S FROM ALL WAR'S THAT ARE BEING TREATED FOR (PTSD) ARE AS YOU PUT IT(NUT JOB'S)? THEREFORE THEY SHOULD HAVE THEIR FIREARMS TAKEN AWAY?:confused:

ivalis
12-24-07, 03:51 PM
veteran status has nothing to do with it. see finger's post.

FistFu68
12-24-07, 04:00 PM
:usmc: YOU'R REMARK CAME BEFORE FINGERS POST :usmc:

hrscowboy
12-24-07, 05:24 PM
Yelp this will really make everyone love bush more huh if he signs that crap..