A couple questions on Marine policy

[decapicity]

I know this marine, he's a lance. I'm not a marine myself but some things he's said has been bothering me and I'd like to get confirmation about whether he's truthful or not.

1) I have to obey the President no matter what, and I have to obey officers if what they tell me to do is legal.

Passing on the orders of the President (which must be obeyed) is legal. Therefore the Constitution is something to be vaguely "Supported," whilst the President is to be obeyed.

I believe that the laws, as written and as they seem to interact with the Oath, allow the President to give whatever order he chooses (in spite of constitutionality) and demand obedience from the armed services.

This idea is not an original of mine either. It's the taught policy of Military Intelligence, and was how I was instructed.

So which is greater? The president or the constitution? I've always heard from members of the armed services that the constitution is number 1. This guy says it is number 2.

This frankly scares the crap out of me, if it's true.

While the president is the commander and chief, we have had some that have clearly given unlawful orders. I would hope that in any scenario where the president is giving orders that aren't constitutional nor are legal in any way, that the marines would refuse to obey them because they're unlawful orders.

So is he right? I've always assumed the military also acted as a check on the president if he goes power hungry. So is this what is taught? Or is it something the guy made up?

2. Drinking alcohol. Are state or military laws applied when someone is stationed within US territory?

3. When exactly does the marine corps investigate civilians? What conditions fall under this?

Thank you fine men and women in uniform.

[WalkingMan]

I know this marine, he's a lance. I'm not a marine myself but some things he's said has been bothering me and I'd like to get confirmation about whether he's truthful or not.

1)
So which is greater? The president or the constitution? I've always heard from members of the armed services that the constitution is number 1. This guy says it is number 2.

This frankly scares the crap out of me, if it's true.

While the president is the commander and chief, we have had some that have clearly given unlawful orders. I would hope that in any scenario where the president is giving orders that aren't constitutional nor are legal in any way, that the marines would refuse to obey them because they're unlawful orders.

So is he right? I've always assumed the military also acted as a check on the president if he goes power hungry. So is this what is taught? Or is it something the guy made up?

2. Drinking alcohol. Are state or military laws applied when someone is stationed within US territory?

3. When exactly does the marine corps investigate civilians? What conditions fall under this?

Thank you fine men and women in uniform.

Fill out your profile.

Question #1 - Unless the Commander in Chief him/her self gives the Marine a direct order directly (pretty unlikely), then the Marine will receive the order through the chain of command, so the Marine will only receive the order from his/her direct superior.

I can only guess that there is dialogue and argument between Congress and the President, just as there will be dialogue and argument at each and every step through the Marine Corps chain of command.

This is a complex and deliberate set of checks and balances, because 'sanity tests' are applied at each level of command the order must pass through. No-one wants to follow stupid, or dangerous, or illegal, or impractical orders, and sometimes, higher eschelon individuals in the chain issue orders that are impractical, un-do-able, etc., because they are not aware of the current state of affairs on the ground, war being a very fluid state.

There are checks and balances at every level, but, people being human, there will be mistakes at every level, including the President, and the Congress.

If you seek perfection, you are on the wrong planet.

#2 - Drinking alcohol follows the laws of the State and country in question. See: http://www.marinecorpstimes.com/news/2007/05/marine_alcohol_070511/

#3 - Haven't you been watching TV? :) The Marine doesn't investigate civilians. NCIS (Naval Criminal Investigative Service): http://www.ncis.navy.mil/ does, when a crime involving civilians and Dept. of Navy personel takes place.

[chili77bowl]

And on a more personal note, please Cap the 'M' in Marine... thanks.

[Marine84]

HAHAHAHA! Here's another one that probably thinks joining the military would be like pulling 4 years on a college campus.

It is no joke son - when you sign that contract, you make a commitment to drop your individuality and become part of something BIG! When they say GO - you're supposed to ask "how fast" but only so you can get there on time. Nobody is going to ask you how you "feel" about anything nor will they care so, don't offer your opinion. Does not matter whether you think an unlawful order has been passed down - you follow it through and question later.

[Sgt Leprechaun]

FEEEELINGSS>>................Whoah whoah whoah....FEEELINGGGSSSSSS~~~~~~~

Now that THAT is out of my system.

The Marine telling you that, to begin with...is not a "Lance". It's Lance Corporal. "Lance" is this guy:

http://www.dvdedice.cz/herci/79/7_4771154854279.jpg

The Marine Corps doesn't 'investigate' civilians at all. There are different types of investigations conducted by the gummint for various reasons, but all of them are either related to getting or keeping a security clearance, or criminal reasons.

Lastly, you are going with the assumption that 'the military' is supposed to keep the president "in check". Sorry, but please cite the appropriate passage in the Constitution that gives the military that particular authority. Methinks you've been either watching too many TV shows or hitting too many moonbat websites.

Crikey.

[bigdog43701]

when in doubt....carry it out!!!

[decapicity]

The reason I asked about #3 is because this "Lance Corporal" in question said I was. I don't know if he's being truthful or simply nuts.

And is someone going to answer #1 fully or do I have to go somewhere else for s straight answer?

Are the quotes in my post Marine policy or not?

Do you obey the president and not the constitution? Must orders passed by the president be obeyed regardless of the legality and how constitutional those orders are?

That's what he said and that's what I want to verify.

[Finger]

I know where you are going with this. your issue is the President can deploy the Corps for a time without approval of congress. That is done for a very important national security reason.

That is why we need to vote the best person into office that we possibly can every election. They must be strong and decisive, and not weak.

Yes, we Marines do follow the direction of the President. Have you seen one break constitutional law. I also don't think you will see one do it without a large scream from all.

Finger

[chili77bowl]

dang, well, 1st Sgt let the fun outta that one...I wanted to see how far we could get this kid wound up.

[Sgt Leprechaun]

Yeah, no kiddin....I was gettin ready to launch a complete strike on that one.

Dangit.

Oh, what the hell....



Hey, sporto...

First, you sound like someone who is either a full blown conspiracy nut, or a political junkie looking for some sort of knuckledragging answer. Either of which you could certainly find here in the political section (badabumpbump) but since you aren't a MARINE, you can't access it.

Moving on.....(can anyone hear the gunships circling yet?)...

I'll work with this:

****
I have to obey the President no matter what, and I have to obey officers if what they tell me to do is legal.

Passing on the orders of the President (which must be obeyed) is legal. Therefore the Constitution is something to be vaguely "Supported," whilst the President is to be obeyed.

Quote:
I believe that the laws, as written and as they seem to interact with the Oath, allow the President to give whatever order he chooses (in spite of constitutionality) and demand obedience from the armed services.

This idea is not an original of mine either. It's the taught policy of Military Intelligence, and was how I was instructed.
*****

When we swear our oath, it's to Obey the President, and those appointed above us, and the Constitution. Your vague question doesn't make any sense.

Why would you believe some LCpl who is telling you you are being investigated by the Marine Corps??? That Marine is yankin yer cookies, pal. If you are worried about black helicopters or some such, have no fear, they are otherwised engaged. And Mark Harmon of NCIS would be doing the 'investigating' anyway.

Finally, as Marines, we can lawfully NOT obey orders that are patently unlawful. In other words, if the President were, say, to give the Commandant of the Marine Corps an unlawful order, he could legally refuse it.

A Sergeant telling his squad, "The President told me to tell you guys to go throw rocks at decapacities house, so git movin", is an unlawful order they could refuse to carry out.

"It's the taught policy of Military Intelligence.." Who is this all knowing LCpl? Colonel Flagg? Besides, Intel types don't call themselves 'military intelligence' in the Marines, we're just "Intel" or some such. And, we don't "teach policy" either.

I think the good LCpl is jerkin your chain, and then you wander in here with said panties in a wad looking for verification that we are all Nazi's or some such.

Now, please explain to me why this is a burning issue for you. Unless I've nailed it.

Lastly, non Marines don't wander through here and make whiny tin hat demands without drawing down fire. If you expected us to be cuddly and politically correct...."you chose poorly".

Have the best day ever!

[sparkie]

Sgt Lep,,,,, You need me to come in and drag my knuckles on this one?

[chili77bowl]

*pulls out trusty baseball bat with nail in it*

UGH! Me smash...


"Fire for Effect!"

[bucksgted]

IMHO, this sounds like a "I have this law test coming up and I need opinions" kind of thread. The profiler has no age or affiliation, but I'm guessing prelaw school or early law school.

Again, I am of the opinion this thread is a sham and should be closed down. Sorry to suggest busting up your fun folks. This poster was really starting to get on my nerves.

[WalkingMan]

The reason I asked about #3 is because this "Lance Corporal" in question said I was. I don't know if he's being truthful or simply nuts.

And is someone going to answer #1 fully or do I have to go somewhere else for s straight answer?

Are the quotes in my post Marine policy or not?

Do you obey the president and not the constitution? Must orders passed by the president be obeyed regardless of the legality and how constitutional those orders are?

That's what he said and that's what I want to verify.

I gave you a fairly good 'real world' answer, which is, that a static, cast in stone, unchanging answer does not, and cannot exist, in the real world, because different people are going to interpret Law in different ways, and no two scenarios are ever exactly the same, so in some cases (particularly the War Powers Resolution, aka The War Powers Act, in the example you cite), even the Supreme Court would probably not give you a unanimous decision, if your question were put to them.

Read it yourself, and decide for yourself:
http://www.policyalmanac.org/world/archive/war_powers_resolution.shtml

Your friend is both 'right' and 'not right'... depending on the context of the specific events in question, the current political climate in the Homeland, and the level of expertise of the legal minds arguing the question, pro and con.

[WalkingMan]

IMHO, this sounds like a "I have this law test coming up and I need opinions" kind of thread. The profiler has no age or affiliation, but I'm guessing prelaw school or early law school.

Again, I am of the opinion this thread is a sham and should be closed down. Sorry to suggest busting up your fun folks. This poster was really starting to get on my nerves.

Well, I would cut him some slack. I don't think he's a law student, because if he was, he would have just Googled the 'War Powers Resolution', which I just provided him a URL to, and not bothered posting here.

I do think that he already has well-formed but poorly informed political opinions, though, regarding the Commander in Chief.

It never ceases to amaze me, that so many people think they know how to run the country better than the President, and know how to Quarterback a professional footbal team, better than an All Star Quarterback. :)

[bucksgted]

Well, I would cut him some slack. I don't think he's a law student, because if he was, he would have just Googled the 'War Powers Resolution', which I just provided him a URL to, and not bothered posting here.

I do think that he already has well-formed but poorly informed political opinions, though, regarding the Commander in Chief.
It never ceases to amaze me, that so many people think they know how to run the country better than the President, and know how to Quarterback a professional footbal team, better than an All Star Quarterback. :)

Perhaps I'm just getting old and short on patience. When folks come around with what appears to be preconcieved notions or have some hidden agenda, my hackles go up. Harking back to August, 1958, I can just hear the conversation between the CMC and President Ike when we were told to get our asses to Taiwan. The good General says; "Now Ike, you know we might just be starting WWIII or cause a nuke attack; don't you want to reconsider?" You know that conversation didn't occur, we got our butts there and kicked the commie ba$tards asses and chased them back across the border like we were told to do. No declaration of war, no congressional hearings - - none of that stuff happened- - the President of the United States gave an order and we complied.

[Sgt Leprechaun]

Sparkie....fire for effect!

I think the lad is interested in petty political theory, likely been gettin indoctrinated at the local 'poly/sci' course by the draft dodgin hippie professor.

[WalkingMan]

Sparkie....fire for effect!

I think the lad is interested in petty political theory, likely been gettin indoctrinated at the local 'poly/sci' course by the draft dodgin hippie professor.

Yeah, you are probably right, but this fellow is going to wind up living long enough to see first-hand, probably in the city where his friends and family live, the true ugliness and insanity of Islamic Supremacism and Sharia Law.

It's funny how seeing the people you love get raped, bleed and get blown up can change one's attitude, about what one's poly/sci professor had to say.

Just look at what Islam is doing to Europe (France in particular), India, Africa, etc... coming soon, to a town near you.

Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil. -- Thomas Mann

[Covey_Rider]

This forum is a place for civilians interested in BECOMING a Marine to come and expand their knowledge on the Marine Corps and whether or not they would like to join. This site is not for you to come and start a political rant. You will not win...no matter how correct you think you are about anything.

It appears to me as though there is a hidden agenda. There is an ulterior motive behind your questions and you persist on maintaining secrecy.

As far as I'm concerned you can do your research somewhere else.