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ssgtt32
11-01-07, 04:03 PM
Marine recruiters busted in exam fraud <br />
Stand-ins took test required of 15 marginal enlistees <br />
<br />
By DANE SCHILLER <br />
<br />
Here's where the nine Marine recruiters worked: <br />
<br />
• Four worked at the Memorial...

grampsdw251
11-01-07, 08:32 PM
It's a real shame when Marines are put in a situation like
these recruiters apparently were, especially when there are
a lot of us older 'prior service' types who would re-up in a heartbeat if not for certain age requirements.
Some restrictions are sensible, yes, but the age thing
doesn't make much sense to me in some ways.
The way I understand it, Your present age minus years
of service has to leave enough time to reach 20 total years of service before age 60.
Who cares about 20 years? Hell, I didn't do 20 years
when I signed up at age 17. I'm 50 now, still in darn good shape, willing, ready and able. I know without a doubt I could return to my old MOS and get the job done.
I may want to do another 3, 4, or 10 years or more.
Enlistments are contracts for x amounts of time anyway.
any of you ever sign on for 20 years? I see no reason a
Marine (or any other branch) can't serve again, as long as
he/she can prove themselves fit for service.
I think the whole of our armed forces are overlooking
a lot of great potential. Just my opinion.

grampsdw251
11-01-07, 09:04 PM
Tried to edit that last post but the time limit got me.
The recruiters aforementioned were,in my opinion, under a lot of pressure to get their numbers. They made a bad call for sure and you can bet they are paying the price. At least one so far has no more chance of a career in service and others chances are severely damaged.
They are Marines and they did what any Marine does in an impossible spot--they got it done anyway.
We got 10,000+ pre trained prior service Marines who already know what the Corps is all about, knocking on the door for a chance to serve again. Answer is NO, get new ones.
Makes about as much sense as sending the National Guard to guard the borders and don't even give 'em any ammo! Go figure. pizesmeoph!

gutinstinct
11-01-07, 09:24 PM
With all do respect I agree with you on everything in your quote Gramps(Including about the age thing. I would re-enlist in a heartbeat), But I feel that if the recruiters lied to get these under qualified individuals in the corps by malicious means they should be held responsible. There is no excuse for lying. Furthermore, If by chance that any of these under qualified individuals made it out to the fleet they would be a possible danger to fellow Marines.

jahhead88
11-01-07, 09:51 PM
http://www.blog.rockstarmemoirs.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/07/pinnochio.jpg

jetdawgg
11-02-07, 10:47 AM
Jarhead88 that's funny:D

On another note, I hope that those Marine Recruiters get the max for what they have done. There is no reason to lie about the Marine Corps. Our history is rich and our traditions run deep.

If you can't sell potential recruits on the merits of being a Marine, then you should not be a recruiter. The experience is long lasting and invaluable:usmc:

If you become a Marine, you are going to fight:flag:

jahhead88
11-02-07, 11:05 AM
http://www.accesskansas.org/lcf/DSCN2083s.JPG


THE MAX

jetdawgg
11-02-07, 11:22 AM
Jarhead88 you are now officially off the charts

http://www.a3businesssolutions.com/graphfin2.gif:D

jahhead88
11-02-07, 12:29 PM
http://www.fanfic.net/~jeffwong/enzyte.jpg

jahhead88
11-02-07, 12:31 PM
Actually rumor has it they went to there doctors and were prescribed these

http://www.narsil.org/humor/fukitol.jpg

Adams2311
11-02-07, 12:55 PM
I can intelligently speak on this issue, because I have done a tour on recruiting duty. Let me tell you something, Marines, don't be so quick to pass judgement on these recruiters unless you have been there. Certainly, I do not condone what these individuals did, but I won't shun them either. I can honestly tell you that Recruiting Duty was the worst 3 years of my life. I worked 14+ hours a day Monday through Saturday and Sundays were generally spent on the road driving kids to MEPS to ship out on Monday morning. I had a quota (mission) of 3 enlistments per month, but also had to meet that by sex and component as well ( ie. 1 Reg Male, 1 Reservist Female ground, etc. ) Additionally, recruiters have a quota (mission) for shipping and if you've ever been around a Marine Recruiting office, you will hear the phrase, "Shipping is king!" God help you if you miss your shipping mission. God help you if you miss your contracting mission on a repeated basis. I've seen Recruiter Instructors come down to Recruiting Sub Stations and take recruiters out to bars in their dress blues and make them recruit. I've seen recruiters up in the Recruiting Station Headquarters in dress blues on a Friday night at 8:00pm for phase line training with all their PPCs, PACs, Lists, List contact sheets, etc. and receive phase line "training" until 1:00am!!! After this training, they are sent back to their offices ( some 2 hours away) and expected to return the next morning at 7:00am to begin another day. As a Marine Corps Recruiter, you can expect to have your career dangled in front of your face for 3 years and it used as a tool to get you to perform. Some guys just weren't meant to be recruiters and somehow they make it out of the school and end up on the streets of America and couldn't put a kid in the Marine Corps if he walked in off the street with a completed enlistment package. They see their livelyhood slowly fading away and resort to other than ethical behaviors to put kids in. Imagine working 10, 12, 13 years of your life, leading Marines in combat, and going to work every day knowing your career rests in the hands of 17 and 18 year olds and whether or not they say, "Yes or No". It's a hard pill to swallow!

I know I am going to get some motivated 8412 ( career recruiter) totally fired up and he is going to respond to this posting. He is probably going to call me a bag or turd or something like that, but he will be wrong. I was #2 recruiter in my Recruiting Station and had a very successful tour. I was repeatedly asked to join the 8412 ranks and had every sales tactic in the book tried on me. All of the stuff above, I witnessed firsthand or had to participate in. To this day, I am still amazed that we were treated like that. I rolled a zero one month and got treated like a piece of crap for that entire month even though I gave them 5 contracts the month before. Like I said before, it was the worst 3 years of my life!!

Now, the point of this whole posting is that I don't blame the recruiters for their actions and I don't blame the leadership in their particular Recruiting Stations. I do however blame Marine Corps Recruiting Command and the system in general. They are the ones that have created this kind of environment and they don't even realize it!! I took a management class for my Business Degree and one of the lessons was about Business ethics and Corporate Cultures and I wanted to share an excerpt from a paragraph I read.

"Ethics are not shaped only by laws and by individual development and virtue. They also may be influenced by the company’s work environment. The ethical climate of an organization refers to the processes by which decisions are evaluated and made on the basis of right and wrong. For example, Marsh & McLennan, the insurance broker mentioned earlier for its fraudulent practices, was known for having a secretive culture. CEO Jeff Greenberg’s defenders claim that he inherited problems when he took over. But he did not change the arrogant culture that encouraged the aggressive pursuit of profit and allowed problems to fester. As long as you “made your numbers,” his style was detached and hands-off. But when people missed their targets, heads
rolled. This creates an environment that allows and even encourages
unethical behavior."

Sounds a lot like the work environment in a Marine Corps Recruiting Station to me!!! Lastly, I want to say to the Marines reading this. Unless you've walked a day in the life of a recruiter, don't be so quick to castrate and crucify these individuals.

jahhead88
11-02-07, 01:02 PM
Adams2311. First of all, I couldn't even begin to imagine the amount of stress you were under. I take my hat off to you for surviving it. I don't know all the ins and outs; but I do know that an unfortunate after affect is that the whole Marine Corps will be stereotyped by these recruiters.

It couldn't have come at a worser time, with the liberal media having a field day in Iraq

jetdawgg
11-02-07, 01:37 PM
Adams123 thank you for your service first of all.

I understand sales as I was a Sales Engineer for several years at some very large tech firms. I know that missing your quota is a killer. I generally exceeded mine.

I just don't understand how you can get 'fired' from the Marines. I have seen sales reps come and go and even a few engineers. I know that the USMC is different from general business conditions as you may have to ask someone to sell their life.

Most potential recruits do understand that the USMC is about war and warriors or at least should. I just don't understand about recruits having others sit in for them to take their tests. That borders upon the absurd imo.

Also, is there not some sort of issue when the recruits don't make it thru boot camp? So even if they passed the test or the sit ins passed the testing for them, isn't there still an issue here?:usmc:

jetdawgg
11-02-07, 01:40 PM
We are going to have to do something with Jarhead88:D

He must have taken some of those pills he displayed. The ones with the box:D

jahhead88
11-02-07, 09:40 PM
Jetdawgg:
I'll be good.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v228/displacedtexan/blogstartdatefeb052005/boyScoutSalute.jpg

grampsdw251
11-02-07, 10:11 PM
Thanks adams2311, you get it. You clarified a lot of what I meant on my last post here.

I don't condone what they did at all. I was just saying that the 'numbers' stress on these Marines is excessive and counter-productive. A lot of it could be relieved by using the available resources of our "former Marines".

ssgtt32
11-02-07, 10:30 PM
Military pressure to recruit is strong
Some creative methods devised to achieve quotas

By DANE SCHILLER
Copyright 2007 Houston Chronicle

Passing out gimme caps, pounding sweltering Wal-Mart parking lots, even stuffing business cards into the pockets of new jeans still on the racks at stores, there is no doubt military recruiters get creative to carry out one of the national defense's most challenging missions: finding new enlistees.

"You had to do what you had to do," recalled Paul Johnson, who said that for three years he was a Navy recruiter in Alvin. "Did it result in stuff? I got a couple of calls."

As the Army announced Wednesday that it began the recruiting year Oct. 1 with a record low number of pledges, the Marine Corps acknowledged it punished nine Houston-area recruiters who used fraudulent stand-ins to take a military entrance exam for potential recruits who might not otherwise make the grade.

Of the 510,000 people who took the crucial test — the Armed Services Vocational Aptitude and Battery — 265,000 reported for basic training to enter the Army, Navy, Air Force, Marines or Coast Guard during the fiscal year that ended Sept. 30, according to the federal government.

That is to say recruiters got more than half a million people to take the three-hour written test, but nearly half of them remained civilians for reasons ranging from a lack of interest to medical problems, insufficient test scores, drug use or criminal records.

Even previously smoking one marijuana cigarette can mean a prospective recruit needs a special waiver for enlistment.

"When you have a population that only about three out of 10 qualify to enlist, that is tough, that is just tough," said Department of Defense spokesman Lt. Col. Jonathan Withington.

"We are going after the high performer, the same high performer, the best and brightest any employer or college would go after," he said. "It is a tough recruiting environment without question."

Making it even more difficult is the ongoing fighting in Iraq and Afghanistan, Withington and other officials said.

War overseas a factor
From parents to teachers to coaches, with war raging, people seem less likely to recommend young adults consider enlisting.

"The war is a factor," he said. "There is a very strong economy, there is low unemployment, so the youth today have many opportunities."

Johnson said that as a recruiter he had to put in as many as 15 hours a day to find a minimum of 18 recruits a year who would enter the military and make it through basic training. Not doing so, he said, could result in disciplinary action that had as much impact on a career as failing to perform at other military duties.

"Whether a kid scores a 32 on the (entrance exam) or a 98, you still have to have a warm body you are putting in the military," he said.

To reach recruiting goals the services deploy small armies of recruiters that fan out over the nation.

On any given day, the Army has about 6,439 recruiters; the Marine Corps, 2,783; the Navy, 3,501; and the Air Force, 1,312, according to the Department of Defense.

Highly demanding job
Gunnery Sgt. Pauline Franklin, a spokeswoman for the Marine Corps Recruiting Command headquarters, said it takes certain skills to be a solid recruiter and it is not for everyone.

"Marines view their monthly goals as missions," she said. "I will tell you straight out, Marines don't like to fail at anything."

The Houston recruiting scandal, which was made public Wednesday, was unraveled last April, when officials at Houston's Military Entrance Processing Station, known as MEPS, noticed the signature on a recruit's test form did not match the signature on other recruiting documents.

An investigation resulted in the Marine Corps punishing nine recruiters, including discharging one.

Eight were given military discipline and allowed to stay in the Corps, but taken off recruitment duties.

Officials have said they don't know how many recruits may have fraudulently enlisted in the Houston area or when the scam began, but at least 15 cases were confirmed by military investigators.

Donald Hill, the national chief of testing for MEPS, said cheating has gone on periodically for years, but that it is not widespread.

"At various times, every service has had it come up and dealt with it," he said. "I can't say it happens with one service more than another."

Various scams emerge
Military officials declined to release statistics on fraudulent testing and enlistment, including the use of so-called test-taking "ringers."

Hill said among the scams pulled over the years are twins taking the test, with the smarter twin sitting in for the slower one, and recruiters even having a test taker leave the testing room for a bathroom break, only to be replaced by a fraudulent test taker who is wearing similar clothes and has a similar haircut.

"The pressures of recruiting sometimes get folks to do things they shouldn't," Hill said. "I would not condone it, but things have been done to get the numbers so to speak," he continued. "People do things they should not and then come to regret it later."

Johnson said he never crossed any such lines, but can now grin when he looks back at his time in the military, which wrapped up in 2000.

"I got kicked out of Walgreens," he said, "put my business cards in all the Mother's Day cards."

dane.schiller@chron.com

ssgtt32
11-02-07, 10:32 PM
"I got kicked out of Walgreens," he said, "put my business cards in all the Mother's Day cards."

Now that is some funny Sh*t!

Maurice

grampsdw251
11-02-07, 11:02 PM
No kiddin'. "There's a war going on and I joined the Marines. Happy Mothers' Day Mom, Love, Pookie.

Don't worry though, I won't be in any danger.My recruiter put me in the department that writes the rules--you know--ordinances.

LeonardLawrence
11-02-07, 11:36 PM
Imagine working 10, 12, 13 years of your life, leading Marines in combat, and going to work every day knowing your career rests in the hands of 17 and 18 year olds and whether or not they say, "Yes or No". It's a hard pill to swallow!

So is working 10-13 years of your life and then realizing that the reputation of your Corps and more probably the next combat you see will be side by side and in the hands of these youths that you snuck through the system who are Unqualified.

Unethical and unacceptable despite the pressure, no gray area.

jetdawgg
11-03-07, 10:48 AM
Jarhead88, you should be, Ellie has a lot of these on standby:

http://www.lacuracao.com/images/products/636/79398-3-1-99.77F-K75-5-0013_320x320.jpg:D

jetdawgg
11-03-07, 10:53 AM
Thanks adams2311, you get it. You clarified a lot of what I meant on my last post here.

I don't condone what they did at all. I was just saying that the 'numbers' stress on these Marines is excessive and counter-productive. A lot of it could be relieved by using the available resources of our "former Marines".

I agree with you grampsdw. Reactivated Marines can manage a lot of logistical issues, Motor T, RECRUITING and such. It's also a lot cheaper than using mercenaries who are in it for the money vice the love and duty to America:usmc:

jahhead88
11-03-07, 11:20 AM
Jetdawgg:

http://www1.istockphoto.com/file_thumbview_approve/1314229/2/istockphoto_1314229_shocked_baby_with_sign_edge_in cludes_clipping_path.jpg

jetdawgg
11-03-07, 11:40 AM
Brian, that's how I looked after Ellie got thru with me:D

jahhead88
11-03-07, 04:19 PM
http://www.wilsonsalmanac.com/images1/psycho_shower.jpg

Adams2311
11-05-07, 11:10 AM
Imagine working 10, 12, 13 years of your life, leading Marines in combat, and going to work every day knowing your career rests in the hands of 17 and 18 year olds and whether or not they say, "Yes or No". It's a hard pill to swallow!

So is working 10-13 years of your life and then realizing that the reputation of your Corps and more probably the next combat you see will be side by side and in the hands of these youths that you snuck through the system who are Unqualified.

Unethical and unacceptable despite the pressure, no gray area.


Leonard, Lets get one thing straight, I never snuck [U]anyone[U]through the system. I was simply attesting to the pressure recruiters face on a day to day basis with that example. I wasn't condoning fraudulent enlistments and unethical behavior on the recruiters part. The point I am trying to make is that Marine Corps Recruiting Command puts so much emphasis on achieving their numbers and quite frankly the recruiter is an expendable assest to them. They can relieve a recruiter and voluntell some poor smuck sitting at Camp Lejeune to report to recruiter's school the following quarter. They use the Marine's career as their weapon to perform and the system needs to be looked at. The best example I can give to make someone understand the stress would be to consider their housing situation. Imagine you are on the verge of your house going into forclosure and the reason your house is going into forclosure is because you have been $1 short on your payment for the last 3 months. Now, you know in your heart that you have gone to work everyday, worked your ass off and given it 100% to make the most money you can (prospecting). You have asked all your friends and family if they had any spare change or extra cash they can give you (referrals), yet you have repeatedly fallen short that $1 every month. You have called the lender (Higher HQ) to explain your situation but they just don't care because all they want is their payment. Unless you can come up with the $3, you and your family are on the verge of being put on the street with no place to go!! Now, one day you are at work and you walk by a coworker's desk and he has $3 laying there. There isn't a soul around and nobody is looking. You know this $3 can save your house and your family and this guy probably wouldn't miss it anyway because he is well off. What do you do?

I know this is an extreme example, but that is the kind of pressure our recruiters face everyday. Every month their careers are dangled in front of their face and their livelyhood is in jeopordy. Again, I don't condone unethical behavior from a recruiter. All I am saying is that the system and the environment created needs to be scrutinized. There are other ways other than threats to get individuals to perform.

jahhead88
11-05-07, 12:20 PM
Adams2311:

I know a case of a sergeant I met in Saudi Arabia, who had been fired from recruiting duty; and I believe the reason was due to some type of family emergency.

I had a Master Sergeant in my unit who had done double duty as a recruiter and drill instructor and said if he had to choose he liked the drill field better.
Now, it seems like you've got a situation where the recruiters are going to have more pressure put on them because of the unethical conduct of a few recruiters.

jetdawgg
11-05-07, 04:21 PM
and this SICKO gets sent in:D

http://www.healthline.com/blogs/healthline_connects/uploaded_images/michaelmoore-772538.jpg

LeonardLawrence
11-05-07, 04:23 PM
Leonard, Lets get one thing straight, I never snuck [u]anyone[u]through the system. I was simply attesting to the pressure recruiters face on a day to day basis with that example. I wasn't condoning fraudulent enlistments and unethical behavior on the recruiters part. The point I am trying to make is that Marine Corps Recruiting Command puts so much emphasis on achieving their numbers and quite frankly the recruiter is an expendable assest to them. They can relieve a recruiter and voluntell some poor smuck sitting at Camp Lejeune to report to recruiter's school the following quarter. They use the Marine's career as their weapon to perform and the system needs to be looked at. The best example I can give to make someone understand the stress would be to consider their housing situation. Imagine you are on the verge of your house going into forclosure and the reason your house is going into forclosure is because you have been $1 short on your payment for the last 3 months. Now, you know in your heart that you have gone to work everyday, worked your ass off and given it 100% to make the most money you can (prospecting). You have asked all your friends and family if they had any spare change or extra cash they can give you (referrals), yet you have repeatedly fallen short that $1 every month. You have called the lender (Higher HQ) to explain your situation but they just don't care because all they want is their payment. Unless you can come up with the $3, you and your family are on the verge of being put on the street with no place to go!! Now, one day you are at work and you walk by a coworker's desk and he has $3 laying there. There isn't a soul around and nobody is looking. You know this $3 can save your house and your family and this guy probably wouldn't miss it anyway because he is well off. What do you do?

I know this is an extreme example, but that is the kind of pressure our recruiters face everyday. Every month their careers are dangled in front of their face and their livelyhood is in jeopordy. Again, I don't condone unethical behavior from a recruiter. All I am saying is that the system and the environment created needs to be scrutinized. There are other ways other than threats to get individuals to perform.


Thanks for your thoughts, Adams. I hope my post was clear and my reading of yours was as well. I in no way meant to imply that you participated or condoned it.(sorry if it read as such, unintentional)

I was merely using your words to emphasize the point that it is unacceptable (we agree), no matter what. To me that is like a squad leader giving a thumbs up that everything is good to go, when in fact there are issues. Wrong there, wrong here.

As you suggest, maybe a systemic change is in order...how about civilian recruiters...send all the b-Billets to DI school and training classes where they can make an impact. The DOD outsources alot of things, why not this?

Thanks for your thoughts.