Would you use torture to save American lives?

[LCPLE3]

Former POWs struggle with torture debate

Some flat-out reject abuse, others leave door open in name of security

SPRINGFIELD, Ill. - Marion Oltman spent the last eight months of World War II in a Nazi prisoner-of-war camp, and tears still fill his eyes when he recalls those desperate days.

After working all day to fill craters left from Allied bombing, each prisoner got a boiled potato and a slice of bread with sawdust used as filler. Oltman was given the task of slicing the bread to feed 12 men.

"You don't know what it's like to look in the eyes of guys that are that hungry," the 89-year-old Pekin, Ill., resident said, his voice breaking.


The experience gave Oltman a unique perspective about the treatment of prisoners during wartime. As a national debate continues about the role of torture to get information from suspects in the war on terror, Oltman and others attending an ex-POW conference said that the United States should set an example for the world in the humane treatment of detainees.

"I don't believe in torture," Oltman said this past week at the 60th annual conference of the American Ex-Prisoners of War. "I've seen what humans can do to humans. I've lived through some of it. And that's not right."

Haunted by the past, conflicted over present

But what constitutes humane treatment is less clear — and even those who have been in the hands of the enemy themselves don't always agree. While they say they wouldn't kill or physically harm a detainee, many struggle with the question in a world where it appears terrorists have changed the rules.
Ex-POWs, having faced life-or-death struggles in strange lands, are conflicted men. They believe in American ideals of justice and mercy, but know the lonely desperation of facing a hostile and armed opponent.
Neither Oltman or the other former POWs interviewed criticized the Bush administration directly, saying they didn't know enough about U.S. tactics.

Elmer Morris lost his right arm and eye to German tank fire and his feet to frostbite. The 84-year-old Oklahoman said he has tried to lead a moral life since beseeching God for protection upon awakening in Nazi hands with a gangrenous arm and his feet turning black.


‘We need to treat the enemy right’

Morris flatly denounced torture, then stopped and said, "Take all that back." He would condone "a certain amount" of rough treatment, such as solitary confinement.

"Americans try to set an example to all the nations, and in setting that example, we need to treat the enemy right and be good in that respect, not mistreat them," Morris said.

Congress has prohibited cruel, inhuman and degrading treatment of terror suspects. Lawmakers have said that includes simulated drowning known as waterboarding.

The Bush administration has refused to say whether waterboarding is among the interrogation techniques prohibited in an executive order last summer.

A half a world away from the Nazi fight, Buck Turner served on the burial detail, helping carry as many as 40 bodies a day to mass graves at the infamous Japanese Cabanatuan POW camp in the Philippines.

Malnourished, forced to beat one another and assigned to 10-men "shooting squads" that meant death for nine men if one escaped, Turner has a different view.

He doesn't want detainees killed or bones broken, but "if we can put a little pain on one of them and get the information that we need that maybe might save lives, we need to do that."


"Most people don't feel like that," says Turner, 86, of Big Spring, Texas. "But most people haven't been there either and seen what those other people can do to you, and do to your friends."

Some dismiss abuse reports as ‘propaganda’

Pete Wiese, an 83-year-old Washington, Ill., resident, was captured in Italy in 1944 and liberated just weeks before V-E Day. He and the 17 other Americans forced to work on a German farm were so confident of the way their country treated prisoners, they told their guard — headed back to combat — to surrender.

"Never in any other fighting have Americans treated any prisoners other than like they were their own people," said Wiese, who dismisses media reports about current U.S. policy as "propaganda."

Howard Ray, who was 19 and two weeks in Korea in 1950 when he was captured and held for a week by North Korean forces, was appalled by the mistreatment at Iraq's Abu Ghraib prison in November 2003.
But he dismisses questions about the current situation; it's "something we don't know anything about."

"Does the end justify the means? I don't know," said Ray, 75, of San Antonio. "Can I say that I wouldn't do it? I don't know. It would depend on the situation at the time."

??????????

Would anyone here on the forum use torture if it would save American lives?

[Sgt Leprechaun]

It's a no win question. If you say "Yes", you are a torturing nazi/sadist even under the best of circumstances. Say "No" and you are a left wing limp noodle who'd let Americans die.

While we can certainly debate the issue, the absolute best interrogators, the ones who constantly got/get information and hard, actionable, intelligence, are those who go the exact opposite route. "Be nice" really was a watchword with them, and in almost every case, it worked. It worked against American airmen shot down in WWII, it worked against Japanese POW's in the Pacific, and against hard core Viet Cong and NVA regulars.

That having been said, those interrogators also had several benefits this 'hypothetical' does not. Time, for one. And an intimate knowledge and respect for, the 'other guys' culture. That knowledge allowed them to play off the prisoners fears and hopes (the one thing a prisoner HAS to have is 'hope') to get that intel.

The real fear in this type of interrogation is that when you use torture, you get told what the prisoner wants you to hear just to stop the pain.

The 'ticking bomb' scenario, while scary, is an interrogators nightmare. Time is the real enemy here.

This 'nice guy' tactic doesn't always work, a hardened criminal under the full protection of the cj system is likely to ignore you and/or take what they want from you using that approach. Jail doesn't scare them, so you have to work other angles. Nice guy does sometimes work, just not with everyone.

The hard core Islamofacist could be a tough nut to crack.

To answer the question truthfully.......I don't know.

[hmckinley]

Ask the family of the person beheaded, head chopped off, or any way it's put! The towel heads take no prisoners, Gitmo is full of the things laying up using the tax payers money. Our former POW that is in politics will say what he has to, obtaining votes.

The ya or na questions that is so political in the American way of life is so pathetic it stinks. Torture a few of these a-holes and see if you will get a straight answer. If she knew that (no pun intended??) upon answering a question with no answer at all, that the finger nail's would be pulled out and anything up to the head being cut off,WTF?

I agree with the previous Marines answer, NO WIN SITUATION!!! Too many civilians and ole murtha, old and senile making the decisions. Should be an ammendment to the constituation, no one in public office past the age of 50.

See, this is a good question to debate, the further you go on the subject the more debatable it becomes. My answer, do what ya gota do to GETERDUN!

[Deduke]

One of my CAP brothers ( who I won't name ) related this story to me :
One morning, the CAP captured a female VC. They radioed in to CACO to report the capture, and were told to treat her nice. The PF Trung Si ( Sgt ) told the CAP that she had intel, and that he could get it out of her. When this was reported to the rear, they were instructed NOT to ask her anything, because the MI types in the rear were much better at getting good intel.
Long story short, the PF Sgt "interrogated" her anyway. It was not pretty, and, if done today, would result in prison time. However, the PF learned that the CAP was to be hit that night by a VC battalion. ( A CAP is 8 or 10 Marines. ) They managed to get Puff on station that evening, and wound up not only with many, many kills, but they also stayed alive.

When it comes to American lives, there are only two points to be made :
Red is positive.
Black is negative.

One thing the CAP experience taught me is that you have to understand the difference between the good guys and the bad guys. Good guys, you treat good. Bad guys, you treat bad. REMFs don't know who the bad guys are, but the men with mud on their boots do. Whoever writes up the Rules of War (which is an oxymoron in itself) has forgotten the first rule, which is kill the other guy first.

Semper Fi
Deduke

[1stRad2671]

Play by the enemies' rules. Our current enemy has no rules. Give every option a chance, but show no restraint if all else fails.

Our current enemy's hopes are not the same of normal people like in past wars. They hope to become martyrs. That's it. Make them miserable.

[yellowwing]

Its not that cut and dry anymore. Sure quick expedient means would yield good intel on a tactical level. But we have already released hundreds of suspects that after years of 'rendition' proved to be harmeless. I would not gamble that they are still harmless.

Strategically I think we have lost more than we have gained.

[sgt tony]

Well as said it a damn if you do and damn if you don't. I would only say thatif you do then do it right get the info early after they have been there a while the info they have is just made up.
I feel that if we have them locked up then they sould not have all the rights to all this extra stuff like karon and food that they like.
We treat them so bad, **** on them give them as little as needed and no more. That a hell of a lot more than they would give our guys and gals

[jetdawgg]

You can get bad intel either way. I just don't think it is worth it.

[yellowwing]

Yeah, I got hard on for these particluar individuals. The US never recognized the Taloiban Govt in Afghsnistan. The world and our Once NATO allies are seeing that we are splitting legal hairs to torture thes guys.

Osama was successfull in splintering NATO. And we are playing right into his hand.

[RVHall]

I have the greatest respect for the CAPs. One of my good college friends came back really messed up. I'm pretty sure than nearly all of them in the Hoi An area were wiped out during my time with the ROKMC there.

However, the one guy that I knew who did in prisoners according to the tale told later stateside with 5th Recon Btn., he was courtmartialed busted from E-5 to E-1.

The reason I oppose torture is that if we have to become like a fascist in order to defeat a fascist, then what's the point. We've become like them and they win.

I swore to uphold the Constitution. I wasn't there to defend politicians or any faction, but to uphold the Constitution, all of it, not just the parts I like better. I had several opportunities to torture a prisoner for information and I have to admit the thought crossed my mind. But I would never seriously consider torturing a prisoner. I think somehow we've lost some of the good qualities of my father's generation, perhaps rightly called "the greatest generation."

Semper Fi

[mark king]

i would, in half a heart beat.:evilgrin:

[sparkie]

YOU DON'T TORTURE HUMANS,,,,,, But those who decide not to be human,,,, ie Japs,, SS,, Cong,, Isolamoidiots,,,,, To He11 with them. If you have a hard time with that,, Think what they would do with your little sister.

[yellowwing]

I still say just hang 'em ASAP. If they raised a rifle towards us, kill them. Don't let them be a Al Qaeda recruitment posters.

[OLE SARG]

Right on sparkie!!!!!!!! I agree 100%!!!!!!!!!!!

SEMPER FI,

[trp878]

That's right, argue for & against. The Corp made me what I am. That is a man to decide in a split second if my buddies & I live or die. We will do the ethical thing and that is to fight to keep our Country free. All the liberals can go out behind the tree, as they will never keep this Country free using their rules. If we prevail then we remain the USA if they do who will give a s...

[sparkie]

RVHall, You cherish "The Greatest Generation" but I tell you this,,, They would bayonet 6 to get info out of 1. That makes them the "Greatest Generation". They Won,,, simple. In 'nam you took 3 Gooks up for a chopper ride, throw out 2, and the third would talk. And Dawgg,,, Done right, you don't get bad intel,,, Grow up..... Life is.

[FistFu68]

:evilgrin: WHEN IN ROME,YOU DO AS THE ROMAN'S DO :evilgrin: :thumbdown

[HardJedi]

would i use torture? sure, if i thought it would save lives. is it a political quagmire? sure. hats why the media should be kept out of it as much as possible

[Dave Coup]

I have no compassion for these people (Islamofascists) and have no misconceptions as to what they are capable of doing to me, my family, friends or anyone else to achieve thier ends. Therefore I would cheerfully torture, or cut the throat of any one of them----with a song in my heart and a smile on my face.:D

[RVHall]

All you guys are right. I am a liberal. At least by today's standards I am. But then Justice John Paul Stevens, a moderate conservative appointed by Pres. Ford is now the most liberal judge on the Supreme Court. The neocons now consider Goldwater a liberal, even though at the time he and other John Birch Society members were considered as far right as you can go without being fascist.

So the times have changed, and along with them our values. I'm still a Republican but I can't vote for torture. My tour was with combat units in I-Corps, by the way. And I'd die to save you, my brothers.

Semper Fi

[gwladgarwr]

YOU DON'T TORTURE HUMANS,,,,,, But those who decide not to be human,,,, ie Japs,, SS,, Cong,, Isolamoidiots,,,,, To He11 with them. If you have a hard time with that,, Think what they would do with your little sister.

I totally agree with you there, devildog. Most of those Islamonazis who slaughter left and right do not have human souls. Zarqawi didn't suffer any inner conflict when he sawed off Nick Berg's head on camera. Sorry to say, but "by any means necessary."

However, and I'm being polite here, let's do without the "Japs" comment.

When you got a Marine with half-Japanese blood, it's pretty damned hard to equate the people who fought for the evil Japanese Empire with me, and I'm just half. That said, I will tell you straight up I'm no "half-Jap", for that matter. Let's not get the racial part mixed up with the political part. I'm not half "Jap", whole "Jap", or down with the "Japs", even though I share 50% of my DNA with the "Japs". Hope you understand what I'm trying to explain to you.

Sgt gw:iwo:

[booksbenji]

:thumbup:

http://www.inrich.com/cva/ric/opinion/cartoons.apx.-content-articles-RTD-2007-10-19-0227.html

:yes:

[yellowwing]

LOL, nice one.

[sparkie]

GW, There were Japs,,,,,,, There are now the Japanese. I know the difference. Just like there were gooks,Heck I worked with a friend who USED to be a Gook. But no more. there used to be Natzis. Of which I am more than 50% German. If you took offense, sorry, but I don't think you should have. I was making a point as to those who would torture the cr^p out of us.
Look,,,, I married into a French family, My mother in law was 8 during the German occupation. She remembers having a picture of Hitler on her wall, as was required. I went thru heck 'cause I was German. Although my German relatives got here before 1775.
Anyway,,, I meant no offense Dammit. ;] Semper Fi, Bro.

[hrscowboy]

You bet your arse i would use it if it gets me info on the bastards a good thumpin never hurt no one.. trust me by the time you kick someone in gonads about 4 times he"ll be ready to talk.. and cut his scrotum with a K-bar he will spill out anything we want to know..

[yellowwing]

Mebbe' they'll tell us where Osama is. Nothing has worked so far. The puke has a $25 million dollar price on his head and no one is stepping forward.

[brian barr]

YES:iwo:

[jrhd97]

with these islamist, anything is fair game

[Gfunk4life]

Torture is rong, just shot them.images/smilies/banana.gif

[RVHall]

Ok, then most everybody on this forum but me is OK with torture. But consider this: we all swore to uphold and defend the Constitution of the United States of America. Most Marines are men and women...

[hrscowboy]

Thats the problem with things today RV Hall our young Men and Women cant fight a war like our For fathers did.. Now we have rules of engagement and imbedded media which is all bullcrap just to satisfy the liberals well as far as i am concerned if we send our children and grand children into a fight let them fight to win no holds barred. 413 million dolllars was spent by congressmen going to iraq just to see for themselves what our men and women where doing over there thats total BS thats 413 million dollars of tax payers money spent just so a dumb arse Congressman could say i was there.. 413 Million dollars could have bought alot more effective bullet proof vests for our troops and more up to date equipment..

[RVHall]

HRS Cowboy, I agree with much of your point. Back in Vietnam days, I heard that some of the guys back near DaNang had to go on patrol with safety's on. Don't know if that's true, but those sort of politician imposed restrictions that have no practical reason are B.S. indeed. Politicians should leave it to the military. And they should have the courage to risk their sorry careers and declare war so that there will be no budgetary restrictions. In Vietnam, especially during Jan-Feb '68, I couldn't get ammo, food, medivacs for some time due to the helis all being up and Khe Sanh, and we were nearly out of ammo and about to be overrun. Thank you politicians.

But there have been few wars if any, with the possible exception of some post Civil War (Cantrell's) raiders, where U. S. troops had a "no holds barred" entitlement. Like most of us, I have generations of veterans in my family. My grandfather guarded German prisoners in France during WWI, and told stories, and my uncles and cousins told many stories about WWII. I've heard about Korea from a gunny, and from others. And like many of us, I've read some of the many volumes about those wars. Looks to me like our "center of gravity" regarding what's acceptable behavior has drifted a long way from where it once was.

Yes, let's keep the politics out of it. But my opinion is that we shouldn't become fascists in the process of defeating them. We haven't had to in past wars, and we shouldn't have to now.

Looks like none of us Vietnam old guys can sleep at night.

[yellowwing]

Its a hard call that can't decided by politicians. A fine Army BN Commander lost his career for scaring an insurgent with his pistol. That's just dumb. Tactical.

But then you got the Gitmo thing. Strategic.

[sparkie]

1. Make em marry a WM.
2. Strap em in a chair and make em watch Desperate Housewives.
3. Take them shopping at the mall
4. Make them read ALL of Jetdawgs posts.
5. Make them read ALL the Poolee's questions.
6. Give them my honeydo list.
7. Make them sit in the Senate for a day.
8. Make them watch OJ news releases.

:sick:

[yellowwing]

4. Make them read ALL of Jetdawgs posts.
Geez that would take forever!

[RVHall]

That's definitely too cruel and unusual, Sparkie. My wife watches that and that may be the real reason I'm so screwed up.

[FistFu68]

:evilgrin: YOU EVER READ AL-QUEDAS,CONSTITUTION;OR THEIR GENEVA CONVENTION??? AL'MOST AS HUMANE AS THE VIET-CONG'S!!!:evilgrin: (IM NOT FONDA JANE):usmc:

[Dave Coup]

Thier Geneve Convention encourages beheading and torture. RVHall have you seen any of the films these motherfrakers release? Anything that we do to them is like kisses from a baby in comparison.:evilgrin: When I was in Nam we just let the ARVN or PF interrogate. It was a cultural thing.:D

[HardJedi]

the Geneva convention, and our constitution are both a bit dated, as far as I am concerned and need to be updated. besides there have been many international treaties made over the years, about war conduct, and treatments of prisoners, seeking to limit the brutality of combat and such. But lets face it, if it is a time of war, yo are there to enforce your country's will through force, and or shows of force, an that means killing. Now, is it more humane to shoot someone, bomb someone, whatever, or to pull a few toenails in the hopes you can capture lots of people to preven more people from being killed or maimed?

torture meerley used to get someone to admit to believing in an ideology that is wrong, or to get them to sign a confession is wrong. but used to save lives? What the hell? I suppose we could just set em free with a weapon and shoot em instead.

[David Jameson]

This is a call that has to be made by the people on the ground and as the
situation dictates.Don't get me wrong on this.I'm not trying to be a bad ass.
It seems to me the people who make the big drama about about rough treatment of p.o.w's seem to be more concerned with how we look,then the way the enemy acts on the battle field.It seems to be a secret in some circles that this has happened in every war and depends on how our guys precive they are treated by the enemy. Examples ,the japs ,the ss.North Koreans.Get the picture.I'm really kind of surprisied that we have taken so many so called non-combatants alive with our people knowing what would be there fate if they put up thier hands.S-2 must want them.
QUESTION--People who like to bring up the Geneva convention ,I thought
that was men and women IN UNIFORM and /or recognized combatants.
People not in unifom are intitled to any protection under the GN.
Spies ,sabators,and people m
not of a recognized organization can and have bene taken out and shot on the spot in all other wars.

[ese4mc]

anytime,anyplace,anywhere,anyday,anyone that tried it on my people--they shall suffer the consequences of their foolish deeds :mad: :mad:

[sparkie]

The Geneva Convention Agreements were written for those who practice a conventional war,,,,does not apply to those who will not wear a uniform, not carry a flag, will not claim a country.. Those types are criminals and thugs, Internationally, nothing protects them.Nothing but our morals,,,,or our needs.

[yellowwing]

The Taliban ruled Afghanistan for years and we never recognized them. Years later we call then non combatants and hold them indefinitely? Thats why our NATO allies are not jumping aboard.

[LeonardLawrence]

Would anyone here on the forum use torture if it would save American lives?

I think you are assuming they want to be "tortured". I thought it was good to die for thier cause??? Wouldn't torture be like Disneyland then?

Seriously....

I have seen what they do to their own children (bombs in crowds) and citizenry, not to mention how others are treated like animals (beheadings) at the slaughter.

If I could...and it would save a life...then yes. Would I enjoy it or be a hollywood movie about it....no.

[RVHall]

Ok, I'm in a very small minority. As a Marine, I'm used to that. This is my last shot and I'm out of here.

First, who ever knows if the proposed torture will save lives.
Second, as YellowWing said, it is a valid point that 99% of the entire world hates us more and more due to our bad behavior. Do we really think that we will always be #1 and we can kick the entire world's ass? Our kids no longer excel in great numbers in math and science - they are just not disciplined enough. They prefer the touchy feely majors. We have to look for foreign students to help fill the need. I know, I'm a scientist.
Third, now that our King has made the writ of habeus corpus obsolete for the first time since the Magna Carta, all that he has to do is call you a terrorist, with no judicial or other review, and YOU can be tortured.

And finally, on the Constitution, it was not designed to protect the strong. It was designed to protect the weakest among us from the majority, until due process determines that we ought to be punished and how. I still suspect that many of these comments have come from Marines who haven't seen combat and who haven't had full control over a prisoner. In Vietnam, we took many VC prisoners who were "out of uniform". I know that there were some abuses, and when caught the UCMJ took care of the Marines who had flipped over the edge. Young Marines out there, please don't ruin your career over this issue.

We can win lots of battles and lose the war. Gen. Giap admitted that they never defeated us, but he said that wasn't important. They didn't win militarily, they won strategically. Unless we win the hearts and minds of not only the Iraqis but also of the free world, once we are no longer the most powerful, and based on our declining technical ability we are losing ground, we are goners.

It's been an interesting discussion at times, and I wish you all the best.

Semper Fi

[HardJedi]

Um, RVHAll? Lincoln suspended habeus corpus during the civil war, so saying bush is the first is wrong, and he did it without congresional aproval or consent. they did then go back and approve it months after the fact though.

[RVHall]

Lincoln suspended habeus corpus during the civil war, so saying bush is the first is wrong,
Touche, I stand corrected. Glad someone does pay attention to historical facts. This did happen once before, although the nation's very existance was threatened in the very immediate future in a way that was indisputable at the time.
Sorry for my oversight but that doesn't change the fact that the new left is right of center in my parent's time and the new right is far to the right of anything ever seen before in the USA. That together with the exercise of war-time powers in the absence of a declared war, the undeclared "war" on a budget (again), the habeus corpus and torture issues, the decline of our technical superiority, and the alienation of the entire world does not bode well for the future of what I hope will remain the greatest example to the world of freedom and a government of, by and for the people.

Semper Fi

[HardJedi]

shoot? of , by, and for the people? not in MANY MANY years. not when it is estimated to now cost over 600 million to run a presidential campaign. what need to be done, is political parties need to be outlawed and people running for president be forbidden to spend more than 1 million dollars on thier campaign. then maybe we'll get people there in office who don't owe so much for to large corps and speacial interest contributers:mad:
and of course i pay attention to historical facts! I am a blonde butt hai away from becoming a HS history/ social studies teacher. YAY for me lol

[Amtracs1962]

We all took the oath to defend and protect the Constitution...I shall not break mine...Torture is wrong under any circumstances and if we resort to torture, then what separates us from the barbarians?...I am a Marine and will always be proud to be part of the best...I am an American and will always be proud to be a member of the greatest country in the history of the world, a country that has done more good than all combined countries that have ever existed...What can be better than that...

[LCPLE3]

We all took the oath to defend and protect the Constitution...I shall not break mine...Torture is wrong under any circumstances and if we resort to torture, then what separates us from the barbarians?...I am a Marine and will always be proud to be part of the best...I am an American and will always be proud to be a member of the greatest country in the history of the world, a country that has done more good than all combined countries that have ever existed...What can be better than that...

Well said!

As a Marine and a American we all should have high standards for our conduct but if your going to wrestle pigs in the mud (war) your going to get dirty! So sometimes our conduct has to change to deal with those that do not have any.

[yellowwing]

Is anyone else getting kinda bummed out about that we even have to talk about this? I look back at my comments and think, "Wow, this is harsh."

[HardJedi]

i am actually MORE disapointed no one has any thoughts on my moral justifications for torture thread! :) :banana:

[OLE SARG]

You know what, I just have to say this:::::: I really don't give a **** what the rest of the World thinks about my USA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! AND if we stopped their foreign aid, you can bet their ****ing attitude WILL CHANGE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I say **** them and the rest of the World!!!!!!
Would anyone here on the forum use torture if it would save American lives?

Now, to the point at hand. Would I torture to save a Brother Marine's live - give me the ****ing pliers and some wire and I'll torture the truth out of their ass!!!!!!!!!!! You damn right I would!!!!!!!!!!

The Geneva Convention crap has no place in this conflict and does not even apply. The sheetheads have made the rules and that is the rules we should abide by!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! "Nuff said!!!!!!!!!!!!!

SEMPER FI,

[LeonardLawrence]

Some of the posts lead me to believe that the US Constitution is in place to protect foreigners....

Now if you want to snow me with the moral high ground, then I get it, but otherwise, invoking the Constitution is another issue...