Oh boo-hoo [Archive] - Marine Corps

MOUNTAINWILLIAM

09-08-07, 08:35 PM

With regards to the mis-treatment of recruits - Here is an observation from an old Marine.

"From: LLOYD Evans <BOHAUSA@peoplepc.com (Taiwan Veterans Badge of Honor Association)
To: A BOH Communication <BOHAUSA@peoplepc.com
Date: Sunday, August 12, 2007 2:20 PM
Subject: Parris Is., Aug trip, and miscellaneous observations, BOHAUSA

Members: I have returned from Parris Island where I experienced my first USMC Recruit Graduation in 50 years. Sure, I've been there since 1956, but not to see a graduation ceremony other than to experience my own in March of 1957. Members and USMC (Sgt) David P. Glaysher and (M/Sgt) Eugene Nebelung were also at hand to experience this graduation. This newest Marine is the son of a good and proud friend with a very proud family.

Much has changed in half a century. Gone are the legendary sand fleas at Parris Island (they "DDT'd" 'em all?), gone too is the discipline of spit-shining shoes and barracks cap brims (patent-leather), buckets and scrub brushes and doing your own laundry (they have laundries that do this for them now), but the main "drill" remains the same, i.e., 500 civilians came in 13 weeks ago and were gleaned down to a new Corps, of 6 platoons, a company of 400 Marines. These enlisted marines of today are brighter than we of the past and older by 'bout 3 years. Where we were in our mid teens they are in their early 20's. So good to be amongst these distinguished young men (I've met them also at USAF and USA bases as well. We gotta be proud of them all.).

Occasionally I found myself defending Marine ethos and that of our entire military in the many conversations I engaged in. One in particular stands alone, "And now "they [our Gov't]" is sending them over there [Middle East] to get killed." My retort was "And I thought these warriors believe that 'they' are going to support themselves in their commitments and to extend and defend freedom to those victimized by tyranny?"

Here's the "problem": Most Americans are so distanced from this war that they believe it is not worthwhile. All they see are the mounting casualties and expenditures.One noteworthy commentary on the news was that someone postulated that we need another 911 to shock us into a renewed reality. Its as if 3,000 murdered in a day isn't sufficient motivation, I don't know what is? I don't think we need another 911, what we needed on 9/12/2001 was a president that would have asked for sacrifice on the part of every American and he didn't. Instead, its "business as usual,": and instead of "Let's Roll," we got a rolling economy and a roiling stock market. I voted for Pres. Bush, twice - and before you ask, yes, I have voted for Democrats in the past - but I have been very disappointed in this CIC lack of calling for national sacrifice in this war on terror; and in so many Americans unwilling to assist our warriors with a common voice.

Anyway, we are all back at BOHAUSA HQ and looking to leap into September BOHAUSA action. Paul Wong has yet to deliver the Aug. 2008 trip itinerary as the Grand and other ROC points of interest are embroiled in 10/10 reservations and maybe later this month something may develop.

We as a group were successful in seeing passage of the House Foreign Affairs Committee's Taiwanese high-level visits resolution - each of you made that possible by contacting your Reps. and we need to chime in when it goes to the House floor for a vote. Disappointing was to see another attempt to join the UN - even with the name only of Taiwan. Guess who orchestrated that, you bet ChiCom Hu).

Well, Business Week allowed by blurb to be placed on their. Some very interesting comments by many others, its worth your review. But there was an additional item that I attached to my comment that was not printed and will be in the SEP NL.

OK, talk with you later, enjoy what remains of this summer. The temperature at Parris Island was measured using the THI, it was 115F - they held the graduation inside an air-conditioned facility. Past USMC members may have numbered 30 or so out of the 3,000+ that were in attendance. We received a standing ovation; and we very "few" would have preferred it had been held outside and on the famous grinder - Oh, guess what? The two day graduation event passed and someone (the LCL "Master-of-Ceremonies) failed to give the command to the band to play the Marines Hymn. It was in the program and...well, all too many "things" have changed in the past 50 years (I'm not finished with the Col and that LCL yet! I laid out my complaint nicely and you can rest assured it'll never be missed in any future ceremony),

Semper Fidelis,

LLOYD"

Those hollering about being abused are forgetting that the training has pretty well remaind the same since the formation of the Corps. It maintains continuity with the past.

Gary Hall

09-08-07, 09:51 PM

No need to sweat it, like my favorite stand up says, "Look around man, look around." Since 1950, every stand up will agree there's an unending supply of comedy to be derived from the foibles of the intelligent ones. Presently, and absolutely the brou.ha.ha at MCRD San Diego is directly due to the wrong command presence set by the CG there and that some things in life are constant and one such is that there are roles to be performed by males only and females only, especially in the military. One such is that the role model for Marines be of the male of the species and I don't care if a highly credentialed female is assigned the job of commander of any combat unit it can't work out even if she should have the male testosterone level of an ape (male, that is). Females are not built for running combat troops. I hope it will be remembered when considering the circumstances of Sgt. Glass "... that no member of his platoon was seriously injured..." And I wish the Sergeant well in the coming time of his undeserved travail. The respect previously earned by Marines has always been as a result of discipline, training, leadership and core values, all presented and exemplified by the example of proper role models, not by managers. If it is considered that losing 4 recruits out of about 60 (by running away) consider also then an example in the 1999 book by Jim Dent entitled THE JUNCTION BOYS. Coach Paul (Bear) Bryant, in his first summer at Texas A & M, took 111 football Wannabe's to Junction, TX (on 2 busses) and after a 10 day work out designed to find out who wanted to play football for Texas A & M, counted only 35 survivors. 76 losers had quit the team by slipping away from camp at night during the 10 day period. Bear Bryant took the 35 keepers back to A & M, on one bus, it was reported, and won the Southwest Conference Championship, the following year. If Captain Christian Pappas believes "... every member of Glass' platoon was a victim ..." then I conclude the good Captain is not a combat infantry officer. Captain Kenneth J. Houghton and Col. Chesty Puller never would have made such an observation. Captain Callahan, I am much appreciative of your words "... prosecutors have gone overboard with their case.", which is what to expect of managers, in contrast to the example set by leaders. Gary Hall, W-3-1, 1950 - 51, at Tyler, TX. Semper Fi.

SlingerDun

09-08-07, 10:18 PM

Coach Paul (Bear) Bryant, in his first summer at Texas A & M, took 111 football Wannabe's to Junction, TX (on 2 busses) and after a 10 day work out designed to find out who wanted to play football for Texas A & M, counted only 35 survivors. 76 losers had quit the team by slipping away from camp at night during the 10 day period. Bear Bryant took the 35 keepers back to A & M, on one bus, it was reported, and won the Southwest Conference Championship, the following year. I'm not sure how far the movie makers spiced up the truth but as i recall Bear Bryant (Tom Berenger) later in life lamented about how he pushed the 'Junction Boys' to hard, they were beat up and worn down and the losing first season confirmed his thoughts. He was then reminded from an assistant that the following year was successful.

--->Dave

Covey_Rider

09-09-07, 08:20 AM

I'll put $20 down betting that those recruits that are weak and are reporting abuse, used to say the phrase "pain is weakness leaving the body" before they went to boot camp. I'm astonished to see that this event even came about. Abuse is one thing but hardening is another. If a recruit truly was abused then yes it's wrong. But if a recruit was being hardened then there is no reason for this case at all.

Everything that happens in house stays in house. There is no reason for their laundry to get aired outside of the squad bay. Weakness of those recruits is what it comes down to.

yellowwing

09-09-07, 09:04 AM

There are a small number that show up on the Yellow Footprints that just ain't right. No matter how hard you try or what you do, you just can't motivate them enough to Our Standards.

Every Marine has seen them, those guys that just go away. Maybe we send them a fleeting good luck, but we are usually too busy with our own job.

I remember my own Bros in the Corps and have come to know some newer generation Marines here. I would not want any substandard warrior watching our back.

greensideout

09-09-07, 09:58 PM

huey guns

09-09-07, 10:30 PM

No doubt GSO, too much PC crap for them all to be crying mommy.

Alphaonethree

09-10-07, 08:57 PM

Whole platoon was questioned by the series XO and the Chaplin. One at a time in the duty hut. NO DI's They made us all take out t shirts off so they could look for brusis. No one cracked. After they finished The XO walked out and the DI put us at attention and the XO chewed the entire platoon a new one. After he and the Chaplin left and for our undying loyalty we were treated to an extended peroid of bends and thrusts.

Scottyva

09-10-07, 10:36 PM

And the schools in the country are just as bad. Where are the hard chargers at??? Sometimes we have to take an ass kicking to give us a reason to be MARINES....... 
 
I do have to ask if this is a...

Sgt Leprechaun

09-10-07, 11:36 PM

I'm going to chime in on this one. While I agree that current society is, for the most part, a bunch of sob sisters and assorted ne'er do wells, and quite likely some of these recruits stories will fall apart as soon as this gets to court, by the same token, hitting these kids with channel locks is unsat. (IF that did happen).

Yes, I know, if they get into combat in the sandbox, AQ will be far more brutal. But that ain't the point. I have no issue with some measure of physical correction when it is required or needed, but it's a slippery slope.

Here's the question to ask yourself, if it were your son/daughter telling you the DI hit them in the face with a channel lock, and had been kicking hell out of the entire platoon (not just one or two idiots, but pretty much everybody), how would you feel? I'd tend to think that particular DI had some issues that needed to be addressed. Again, I'm not talking about my kid getting a rap upside the head for failing to follow simple instructions, but something else entirely.

I am going to withold judgement on this, though, until the facts are all in. I hope to hell that it's a bunch of recruits put up to this by someone that is too soft. I really do. But if it's not.....

Isrowei

09-12-07, 11:06 AM

Interesting thread. 
 
The stuff at MCRD did happen. The recruits were mistreated. Blaming it on the female leadership (specifically on the fact that the General in charge is a female) is ignorant...

3077India

09-12-07, 11:36 AM

Mis-treatment in boot:cry:? I'm stunned:scared:! If they think boot is bad, what the heck are they gonna do when they get into combat with bullets whizzing passed their heads and explosions goin' off all around them? :confused:

CHOPPER7199

09-12-07, 11:38 AM

Well said Isrowei, but please fill out your profile to reflect your status.

Alphaonethree

09-12-07, 11:58 AM

Yes, well said psyco babble. Some recruits just do not learn unless you go upside there heads. Some mommys boy screwed a Staff NCO's career over because he did not like the way the drill instructor trained him. Dont know where your from but where I live my country is at war. And if a boot in the butt or a crack across the head teaches a young person to not make a mistake that could end the life of a fellow Marine then I say train away and thank you for doing so.

jetdawgg

09-12-07, 12:00 PM

I agree with some of the content regarding your post. I don't agree that the female leadership is/was the problem. I also agree that the rules are the rules.

I don't think that you should call the older Marines in the house 'ignorant'. A lot of older Marines did not have the same opportunities for formal education that we had/have. To consider that they are ignorant is rather strong. I do expect you to be strong as you are a Marine.

I also expect you to understand and respect the postion(s) that the older Marines, who by the way made the way for you and I to be a Marine stand.
These are very honorable men and women who sacrificed greatly and calling them ignorant is too strong a word:usmc:

Isrowei

09-12-07, 12:11 PM

...what the heck are they gonna do when they get into combat...

They're going to do exactly what we've trained them to do. Move toward the sound of the guns, locate, identify, and destroy the enemy using all available assets in accordance with the ROE.

In other words, what they do EVERY day right now. Marine boot didn't change yesterday. The men AND women (yes, female Marines) on the front lines right now are fighting the fight and ... *gasp*... doing a good job! In fact, you might even say they're doing a GREAT job! All those rules, soft training, mothers of America, etc (yep, I learned about them 10 years ago when I did boot) haven't slowed down our Marine Corps one bit. What they have done is identify and weed out those individuals who have no more leadership ability than to physically enforce their will on another person. What part of the 14 leadership traits did that fall under? I must have missed it.

Our Marines today are every bit as tough as the Marines from Vietnam, World War II, or any other conflict we've ever had. They're also smarter, something that I think EVERY old vet has reaffirmed when they visit a recruit depot (and can be verified through academic testing statistics over the years). Many of our NCOs and SNCOs have college degrees and a very suprising number also have Masters. They're innovative, a quality that is shown on a daily basis while engaging a cunny and crafty enemy who changes tactics on an almost daily basis.

So when you want to bag on the "new generation" do some homework. When you want to decry the "softness", think about what real toughness is.

And GSO, I'm stationed at MCRD PI currently. I've updated my profile to reflect.

3077India

09-12-07, 12:18 PM

They're going to do exactly what we've trained them to do. Move toward the sound of the guns, locate, identify, and destroy the enemy using all available assets in accordance with the ROE...Not if they thought boot was too harsh. :p Which I tend to think boot should be hell, then combat could be heaven by comparison. :nerd:

yellowwing

09-12-07, 12:22 PM

You're doing a fine job Marine. Training men like Chris Adlesperger, who would have done good at The Rock Pile, Khe Sahn or Iwo Jima.

Isrowei

09-12-07, 12:29 PM

I don't think that you should call the older Marines in the house 'ignorant'. A lot of older Marines did not have the same opportunities for formal education that we had/have. To consider that they are ignorant is rather strong. I do expect you to be strong as you are a Marine.

Unfortunately, age is no defense for ignorance. I do not consider "older" Marines ignorant. Of course not. I do however, consider the simple tactic of blaming a senior Marine simply because of her gender to be gross ignorance. My comment didn't single out any specific individual, as I addressed the view, not the poster.

Don't like females? Fine, you're free to have your point of view.

But like the poster above who said the career of a "good" SNCO was ruined, it's a view completely devoid of any consideration of reality. Hence, ignorant.

Every SNCO isn't a "good" SNCO. Every Marine isn't a good Marine. Every female marine isn't weak and only out to screw her way to the top. As far as the BGen seeking her next star... why is it a mark against her to seek promotion? Isn't that something we ALL strive for? Isn't that something we teach our junior Marines to strive for?

Having personal opinions is fine. But sniping at a rank or gender to support your position is a weak foundation for any argument and one that simply can't be taken seriously. Regardless of how "old" or senior you might be.

jetdawgg

09-12-07, 12:31 PM

Isrowei, A few of the older Marines here see a lot of the younger Marines and know that they are smarter and more educated. Older Marines also know that today's Marines grow up without fighting in school and such.

Thus the increase in hand-to-hand combat training. When I went thru boot camp I had three fights in the 14 weeks. The DI was also able to display a certain amount of 'physicality' when necessary. It is the 15th trait of leadership.

Fighting among Marines is just part of the Corps. Having DI's be physical is also a part of that tradition. Abuse is one thing. Physicality from the DI is another.

I want to think that today's Marines are just as tough as the Marines of yore. A bit of our 'legendary' status is removed when we see stories like this. I hope that the boots did not get abused. I also hope that the DI does not take it on the chin.

Taking a boot to tasks is just a part of becoming a Marine. How can one earn the title without that?

Isrowei

09-12-07, 12:43 PM

... then combat could be heaven by comparison.

Unfortunately, there is no substitute for combat. And I don't think there is really anything worse no matter how hard you could make it. Any training, no matter how tough or egregious it could be made, wouldn't be allowed to kill the students or it wouldn't be effective.

Let me ask you all this? (Especially for those who are proponents of a "tougher, more physical" boot camp)

What can prepare a young person (17-25 years old, the overwhelming majority of our current Corps) to see their friend, their squad get blown to bits in front of them? To watch as their buddy is riddled by gunfire just a few feet next to them and hear the gurgle of his chest as blood bubbles out of his lungs while he fights for breath.

Does hitting him in bootcamp prepare him for that? Does it make him act any faster or make him care any more?

No.

Discipline in first aid training will prepare him to give that buddy a fighting chance at living another day. Discipline in combined arms tactics will allow Marines to effectively leverage accurate, effective fires against that enemy. Proper leadership by experienced NCOs, SNCOs, and Officers will ensure that Marines are trained properly and effectively.

And we are delivering those kinds of properly trained Marines to the fight every day. So I would argue that we're doing something pretty right in our training.

3077India

09-12-07, 01:13 PM

Unfortunately, there is no substitute for combat. And I don't think there is really anything worse no matter how hard you could make it. Any training, no matter how tough or egregious it could be made, wouldn't be allowed to kill the students or it wouldn't be effective.

Let me ask you all this? (Especially for those who are proponents of a "tougher, more physical" boot camp)

What can prepare a young person (17-25 years old, the overwhelming majority of our current Corps) to see their friend, their squad get blown to bits in front of them? To watch as their buddy is riddled by gunfire just a few feet next to them and hear the gurgle of his chest as blood bubbles out of his lungs while he fights for breath.

Does hitting him in bootcamp prepare him for that? Does it make him act any faster or make him care any more?

No.

Discipline in first aid training will prepare him to give that buddy a fighting chance at living another day. Discipline in combined arms tactics will allow Marines to effectively leverage accurate, effective fires against that enemy. Proper leadership by experienced NCOs, SNCOs, and Officers will ensure that Marines are trained properly and effectively.

And we are delivering those kinds of properly trained Marines to the fight every day. So I would argue that we're doing something pretty right in our training.Why so serious when I was speaking in satire. I'm well aware that nothing compares to the realities of combat; no amount of training, no matter how tough or thorough could ever prepare someone for the horrors of war. No argument here from me.

...BUT I DIGRESS!

Isrowei

09-12-07, 01:20 PM

Thus the increase in hand-to-hand combat training. When I went thru boot camp I had three fights in the 14 weeks. The DI was also able to display a certain amount of 'physicality' when necessary. It is the 15th trait of leadership.

Fighting among Marines is just part of the Corps. Having DI's be physical is also a part of that tradition. Abuse is one thing. Physicality from the DI is another.

I want to think that today's Marines are just as tough as the Marines of yore. A bit of our 'legendary' status is removed when we see stories like this. I hope that the boots did not get abused. I also hope that the DI does not take it on the chin.

Taking a boot to tasks is just a part of becoming a Marine. How can one earn the title without that?

Jet, I can see a little of where you're coming from, but let me address a few things specifically.

The Marine Corps has always had some form of hand-to-hand combat training. Additionally, we've always had some form of rifle markmanship training. I would argue that our marksmanship training (both in boot and follow-on instruction) in unparalleled by anything we have ever had previously in the history of the Corps. That isn't to say that Marines of old were bad shots. Of course not. But we have better courses because we know better methods and we're using them. Similarly for hand-to-hand combat, we have a Martial Arts program, not because our current kids are horrible (I rather enjoy watching the Pugil Stick fights and hand-to-hand fights we do. The recruits have no lack of aggressiveness and intensity... ) but because we have better methods to achieve the same goals as before.

Right now, in our 12 week training schedule, recruits undergo 4 Pugil Sticks fights (the fourth being a 2 vs 2 fight at the Crucible) and an unarmed 1 vs 1 fight also at the crucible. Sure, they use safety gear, because if they didn't, a lot of recruits wouldn't leave the Octagon in one piece (yes, they fight in an Octagon. it's pretty cool). It's intense, it's physical, it's aggresive training. It's also done safely and with a purpose to prepare the recruits for eventual combat related actions. NOT.. as a disciplinary measure. They receive many hours of instruction between each fight to increase their knowledge and profiency as they progress through recruit training.

Having the Drill Instructors be physical is a myth that we as Marines perpetuate as "legend". Before the 1940s it was unheard of for a Drill Instructor to touch his recruits. I would encourage you to read "The Few and The Proud: Marine Corps Drill Instructors In Their Own Words" by Larry Smith. It chronicles the story of recruit training from the early 1900s to current day. Has a Drill Instructor ever hit a recruit? Sure, it has happened. But it has never been SOP. Flagrant recruit abuse has never been tolerated at any time. It would take a long time to spell out the history of it all, but suffice it say that the idea or fiction that a Drill Instructor could do whatever he wanted to a recruit has been gone for over 50 years now since the 1956 Ribbon Creek incident.

I guess my biggest concern is your comment on our "legendary" status. Does Full Metal Jacket comprise the "legend" of the Marine Corps? What happened to Chesty Puller and his 5 Navy Crosses (who, incidentally, wasn't beaten in recruit training)? What about Smedley Butler and Dan Daly and their Medals of Honor? Our legend of being tough fighters has nothing whatsoever to do with training recruits in a physical manner. Our "legend" continues to live and grow as we carry out modern day missions with lethal effectiveness.

Today's Marines are earning the Title. And they are doing us proud on the front lines every day. I think that speaks for itself.

Isrowei

09-12-07, 01:22 PM

Why so serious when I was speaking in satire.

I apologize. This thread hasn't been quite satirical in nature from the beginning so I was in full serious mode. No offense I hope?:beer:

3077India

09-12-07, 01:41 PM

I apologize. This thread hasn't been quite satirical in nature from the beginning so I was in full serious mode. No offense I hope?:beer:None taken; you were actually preachin' to the choir here. I agree with what you said. I feel I probably wasn't clear on the point I was hoping to make in the way I was trying to make it. My mistake.

jetdawgg

09-12-07, 01:53 PM

Jet, I can see a little of where you're coming from, but let me address a few things specifically.

The Marine Corps has always had some form of hand-to-hand combat training. Additionally, we've always had some form of rifle markmanship training. I would argue that our marksmanship training (both in boot and follow-on instruction) in unparalleled by anything we have ever had previously in the history of the Corps. That isn't to say that Marines of old were bad shots. Of course not. But we have better courses because we know better methods and we're using them. Similarly for hand-to-hand combat, we have a Martial Arts program, not because our current kids are horrible (I rather enjoy watching the Pugil Stick fights and hand-to-hand fights we do. The recruits have no lack of aggressiveness and intensity... ) but because we have better methods to achieve the same goals as before.

Right now, in our 12 week training schedule, recruits undergo 4 Pugil Sticks fights (the fourth being a 2 vs 2 fight at the Crucible) and an unarmed 1 vs 1 fight also at the crucible. Sure, they use safety gear, because if they didn't, a lot of recruits wouldn't leave the Octagon in one piece (yes, they fight in an Octagon. it's pretty cool). It's intense, it's physical, it's aggresive training. It's also done safely and with a purpose to prepare the recruits for eventual combat related actions. NOT.. as a disciplinary measure. They receive many hours of instruction between each fight to increase their knowledge and profiency as they progress through recruit training.

Having the Drill Instructors be physical is a myth that we as Marines perpetuate as "legend". Before the 1940s it was unheard of for a Drill Instructor to touch his recruits. I would encourage you to read "The Few and The Proud: Marine Corps Drill Instructors In Their Own Words" by Larry Smith. It chronicles the story of recruit training from the early 1900s to current day. Has a Drill Instructor ever hit a recruit? Sure, it has happened. But it has never been SOP. Flagrant recruit abuse has never been tolerated at any time. It would take a long time to spell out the history of it all, but suffice it say that the idea or fiction that a Drill Instructor could do whatever he wanted to a recruit has been gone for over 50 years now since the 1956 Ribbon Creek incident.

I guess my biggest concern is your comment on our "legendary" status. Does Full Metal Jacket comprise the "legend" of the Marine Corps? What happened to Chesty Puller and his 5 Navy Crosses (who, incidentally, wasn't beaten in recruit training)? What about Smedley Butler and Dan Daly and their Medals of Honor? Our legend of being tough fighters has nothing whatsoever to do with training recruits in a physical manner. Our "legend" continues to live and grow as we carry out modern day missions with lethal effectiveness.

Today's Marines are earning the Title. And they are doing us proud on the front lines every day. I think that speaks for itself.

Dammit, this site times out too fast and it deleted my entry.

In brief, I have read 'The Few' in May as a matter of fact. Excellent read and I recommend all Marines read it. I am asure that the training methodolgies get updated as time evolves. I am sure that the Marines of today are somewhat better trained as they are better athletes than the Marines of my time (in general). I played 5 sports while in the USMC.

We did not have the Octagon, we had some 'down time' where we could take care of differences though. I did have one fight at the Pugil Sticks training.

Some idiot hit me after the whistle. I ripped off my helmet and gloves, then slammed his head to the turf. The DI's killed me (PT) when I got back to the Squad Bay. I know that they enjoyed that though. I did not show the necesary discipline and forgot where I was for a minute.

FMJ is the Marine Corps favorite. No doubt. Every Marine I know watches and enjoys the first 45 minutes of that movie

jetdawgg

09-12-07, 01:59 PM

Isrowei

09-12-07, 02:07 PM

FMJ is the Marine Corps favorite. No doubt. Every Marine I know watches and enjoys the first 45 minutes of that movie

Oh yeah... :) It's a great movie I won't argue with that. My point just being it's not the definitive word on Marine training. It was interesting to read Ermy's recount of making the movie in 'The Few'. A great book I must say. If I get a Marine that hasn't seen Full Metal Jacket (it's rare, but I have come across one before) it's one of the first things I advise them to see!

yellowwing

09-12-07, 02:10 PM

Stripes is the Army comedy, Full Metal Jacket is our comedy! :D

Every Marine I've seen the movie with laughs like hell. Big difference.

Cope

09-12-07, 02:21 PM

I'm speaking as a hopeful future Marine.

While I would'nt go to boot and assume it would be a cake walk, and I see no reason to make an abuse case out of this, I would like to know what the purpose behind hitting someone with a channel lock is?

While I havent been to boot, obviously, I do have family and friends who went, have read books (actually am In the process of reading one mentioned here, The Few and the Proud) and have watched movies online that were taken at boot.

Everything I have seen makes sense. I see a purpose behind it. I dont see a purpose behind beating someone. But if someone could give a reason for it, I'm all ears :)

jetdawgg

09-12-07, 02:23 PM

Oh yeah... :) It's a great movie I won't argue with that. My point just being it's not the definitive word on Marine training. It was interesting to read Ermy's recount of making the movie in 'The Few'. A great book I must say. If I get a Marine that hasn't seen Full Metal Jacket (it's rare, but I have come across one before) it's one of the first things I advise them to see!

I also read 'The Few'. Good read and R. Lee Ermey's take is great. By the way I used to sit on a commision with Mayor Dinkins of NYC (USMC) back in the late 90's.

I think that the Marines of today are just as good as the Marines of yore. I also think that the physicality inflicted from the DI was a great learning tool for all of the other Marines who were not being eh, meddled with at that time.

Even in FMJ that slap of Pvt Pyle shocked the audience. That shck value is what I think that the Marines here are referring to.:usmc:

Good drop Isrowei

Cope

09-12-07, 02:33 PM

SlingerDun

09-12-07, 02:40 PM

Aye Chihuahua the politics laced with piety sure smells of pogue and aspiring feminist incumbent. Spent any quality time around Men? We dont much take too or appreciate being talked down and scolded...

Isrowei

09-12-07, 02:42 PM

I think that the Marines of today are just as good as the Marines of yore. I also think that the physicality inflicted from the DI was a great learning tool for all of the other Marines who were not being eh, meddled with at that time.

I liked the jelly doughnut scene... :) Speaking of.. just the other day there was a recruit who smuggled 3 peanut butter packets back to the squadbay.

He subsequently paid them in good recruit currency... hot sweat on the quarterdeck :evilgrin: Then, everyone was treated to an all-expenses-paid trip to the beach by the Senior :beer: Yep, the sandfleas fed well that day... hehe

Isrowei

09-12-07, 02:45 PM

Aye Chihuahua ...I'm qualified! how about you sweetheart, got a handle on it?

--->Dave

Pants-check?

When I came into work this morning, First Battalion was still an all-male training unit.

Want to re-think that statement... sweetheart?

jetdawgg

09-12-07, 02:49 PM

Pants-check?

When I came into work this morning, First Battalion was still an all-male training unit.

Want to re-think that statement... sweetheart?

Watch Out Now, things are going to a little bumpy for you Marine:D

Isrowei

09-12-07, 02:51 PM

I dont see a purpose behind beating someone. But if someone could give a reason for it, I'm all ears :)

Agreed.

SlingerDun

09-12-07, 03:07 PM

Re-think not a chance, i wasnt questioning or calling out a battalion. I've extracted plenty of sign from previous posts to get a good fix. Some of my best most time consuming and thoughtfull postings (hows that for piety) seem to get deleted anyway so i'll leave it here.

--->Dave

Isrowei

09-12-07, 03:08 PM

Watch Out Now, things are going to a little bumpy for you Marine:D

Hehe, thanks for the warning. I can handle my own though.

Truth is truth. It shouldn't need the defense of coming from a man to be valid though. If you have an honest rebuttal to anything I've said, please, post it. I am always willing to consider new viewpoints, and I welcome those that are supported by well-constructed arguments.

On the flip-side, if you have nothing but personal attacks against me... bring it.

As my Senior Drill Instructor once told me:

A fool doesn't need to be exposed, he does that on his quite well on his own.

CHOPPER7199

09-12-07, 04:40 PM

Oh my, verbal abuse, chit my d.i. picked on my poor sister all the time. chit, could have choked but did't, sad thing to say on graduation day after all said and done I told him never had a sister unless dad forgot to tell me. The good old days Still lmfao

Covey_Rider

09-12-07, 06:31 PM

I didn't mean for it to sound like all females are weak. I apologize for that. But from my experience, whenever a female gets put in charge, things change and new rules are enforced to somewhat...

Isrowei

09-12-07, 07:30 PM

I understand where you're coming from but consider a few other things as well: (pardon, this is going to be long.. ) 
 
Throughout your career you will constantly hear people complain whenever...

yellowwing

09-12-07, 07:54 PM

We are preserving our weak and inhibiting the strengthening or our race.
Long story short, that is not a Marine problem.

Covey_Rider

09-12-07, 08:03 PM

I apologize for not clarifying what I was referring to society in general, and not Marines when I was discussing the preservation of weakness in society. As far as the Marine Corps is concerned I do think that we're not weak by any means. Yes we have those who slip through the lines but overall weakness isn't really a problem.

greensideout

09-12-07, 09:20 PM

And GSO, I'm--------

OK, I noticed you Isrowei. You run your mouth well but seem to lack the ability to understand what you read. Re-read my post. I pointed my finger to where I believe the problem is. Not the recruits.

Our current Marines----http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y90UPLLo6nY

Enjoy!

Too make it easier for all to view...
Ellie

Isrowei

09-12-07, 09:37 PM

greensideout

09-12-07, 09:44 PM

Another try at the addy--

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y90UPLLo6nY&mode=related&search

It's the Marine Silent Drill Team.

yellowwing

09-13-07, 02:39 AM

Another try at the addy--

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y90UPLLo6nY&mode=related&search

It's the Marine Silent Drill Team.
Twice you can hear us Old Salts yell Ohh Rahh to these perfect 6'2" Marines. And in the tradition of Silent Drill Team, they give a perfect performance!

greensideout

09-13-07, 08:47 PM

Truth is truth.

As my Senior Drill Instructor once told me:

A fool doesn't need to be exposed, he does that on his quite well on his own.

Humm? Were you listening?

Scottyva

09-13-07, 09:17 PM

Oh, I read your post GSO. Blame the females for laxness in training (one female in particular) and then accuse the recruits of being "nursed by a JAG". Stellar.

I believe I already stated my opinion of that garbage and the reason why in case you missed it. Why don't you re-read my post there on page one.

If Anyone is to blame its JAG. Lawyers have historically sought to destroy what they cannot control. It could also be the pinheads that want to get wid of the Military as well.:flag:

Achped

09-13-07, 09:51 PM

As someone who just left recruit training, but also one who doesn't want to endanger the careers of his drill instructors by any "politician" mis-interpreting what I write, I'll be concise.

I never saw any abuse. I did see training. Good training, training that by 3rd phase I realized was necessary, in first phase I was like "Holy **** I can't believe the DI just did that", but in 3rd phase it was a "What a nasty recruit, he deserves to get that every day until graduation".

My heavy even told us he knew that beating a recruit, or slapping him silly, knocking him out, breaking bones, etc, was stupid, but that didn't stop him from "training" us. My heavy was the strongest in the company, and from what OTHER SDIs told our platoon on grad week, one of the strongest Sgts on the Island. He knew what he was doing, and most other drill instructors did, but I did see drill instructors doing sadistic things that weren't training, that were just stupid. Example, graduation practice had us all behind the all weather training facility. To keep the hatches open and stop them from locking us out, recruits would hold the hatches by sticking their hand in the hatch and let them rest on it until it was time to go inside.

I saw a drill instructor walk up to the hatch, face away from the hatch, and lean back, with the recruits hand in the hatch. I heard the DI saying "You like that boy?"....thats not training. The recruit wasn't laughing, being nasty, he was just standing there. Our heavy pointed that out to us later that night. Again, we got "trained", the "right way", but we were never abused. If you screwed up, especially in house, you got trained, but a DI would never just go up to a random recruit and physically do anything to him. Ever. That's the way boot should be, in my opinion.

But still, even if I WAS "abused"....what happens in the house stays in the house. My loyalty was to my SDI and DIs, they made me a Marine, not the Series Commander.

Isrowei

09-13-07, 11:06 PM

My loyalty was to my SDI and DIs, they made me a Marine...

Yeah, I was at your graduation. You know, as one having a whole 6 days under his belt away from Parris Island, I can't really say I wholeheartedly trust that you really know what "training" is all about. Your loyalty is commendable, if not a little blind. But that's the way we train it to be. As a recruit, I was loyal to a fault to my SDI and team. However, a few years later, I can honestly critique what they did and point out what parts were good, what parts were bad, and what parts were training.

As for the comment on the chain of command, just keep in mind that every person there from the 4th Hat to the Company Commander was placed there for a reason and had a hand in directly shaping your training... whether you saw it or not.

huey guns

09-14-07, 07:16 PM

BOOT IN '75, We had GIT, personal heart to heart talks, Full card thrashings with blankets over the windows till dawn, they got it good now.

SlingerDun

09-14-07, 10:53 PM

Those hollering about being abused are forgetting that the training has pretty well remaind the same since the formation of the Corps. It maintains continuity with the past. well sure if it aint...

SlingerDun

09-14-07, 11:37 PM

Once again hell of an introduction! Throughout the pages of this website one may notice these words; (Marine Corps Community for USMC Veterans) The way i see it many of us have been tested and...

SkilletsUSMC

09-14-07, 11:49 PM

Interesting point of view. 
 
I was thinking about the difference between hard training and "hazing" and the one thing that separates the two is when the "training" is not done as much for the...

SlingerDun

09-15-07, 12:13 AM

Discipline in first aid training will prepare him to give that buddy a fighting chance at living another day. Discipline in combined arms tactics will allow Marines to effectively leverage accurate, effective fires against the enemy The word discipline has been used with blanketing ambiguity throughout this thread so lets try and refine it shall we?

Field Tactics, Medicine, 3 day event/Dressage, Rodeo, Welding, Brazilian Jui Jitsu, these are disciplines. Competance in these is achieved through study and repetition. Actions then may appear to be instinctual but are likely habitual. Substitute the words work ethic, self or other means of control for the word discipline and this is the "glue" (self, work ethic) or "fence" (other means) That maintain order and control in any given discipline.

"Discipline" in the form of punishment may best be defined as just that, punishment.

I can wake up on a day off stuff my rucksack and head out for an all day mountain hike. Thats one kind of discipline i consider work ethic, i got it, thats what i do.

Also what i don't do, is discipline. But it also stands a strong argument for self control. Like not snacking after dinner if i need to lose a few pounds. Waving at the person who cut me off on the road with all 5 digits instead of just 1.

Blessed is he who has nothing to say and cannot be persuaded to say it. Charlie Goodnight. Now thats discipline.

Referances and Sources;

Iron John: A Book About Men. By Robert Bly

Passion & Discipline: Don Quixote's Lessons For Leadership. APT

Al Irwin: UC Irvine Mens Water Polo Coach.

Mark Sprague: USA Oregon Wrestling Coach: Trainer and Mentor to a host of State and National Champions. U.S. Olympic Wreslting Team members and medalists. One 7 time World Junior Freestyle Champion, his son Mark.

Jim Jackson: Former All Marine Greco-Roman Wreslting Coach.

SlingerDun

09-15-07, 12:39 AM

Long story short, that is not a Marine problem. I learned as a former wrestling coach and current mentor to wannabe cowhands and horseshoers that not many have and fewer capitalize on opportunities to build a foundation towards a specific endeavor that interests them.

There is an open window of optimal time that closes for most of us. A well seasoned full time lifelong coach and mentor told me: Humans from the age of about 7 through high school are the most absorbant and coachable. With proper training throughout most or all of this time span they are the only ones capable of being world class athletes, with few exceptions.

This ranch kid wakes every morning, opens bails and forks hay to the saddle horses and grains the feeder calves. Then he walks a mile or so down the drive to the bus stop. After school he walks back and see's pop shoeing his favorite "outside circle" horse, so he drops his bookpack and straps on his chaperos. Homework can wait until after supper. He spends his weekends holidays and summers gathering, seperating, calving out heifers and doctoring wormy calves. He'd rather fork a good saddle horse than any other kind of work but he'll buck bailed hay and string wire if he has too. He develops bone mass and muscle density from hard work during these formative years and a work ethic often confused with "discipline' that will last out a lifetime. When something breaks he fixes it. When a friend or stranger gets bucked off a horse he makes sure they are okay before he laughs. He often thinks before he speaks. The Marine recruiter has an eye on this lad.

Another young man has spent these same formative years clicking a remote and wrastling a joy stick. His skeleton has never been tested and reinforced, muscle tone the consistency of Velveeta. Work is something his father does. Up until the day he shipped off for basic training he was still being packed around in a mini-van to and from school and feeding on happy meals and soda.

I reckon this could present a problem.

--->Dave

Isrowei

09-15-07, 04:45 AM

Slinger, if this is an example of your more thoughtful work, then please, post more. You have some great points here and a well articulated delivery.

jetdawgg

09-15-07, 09:24 AM

SlingerDun, that is where sports and other physical activities come into play. I am from NYC. We don't have too many ranches in the city. I grew up playing sports and encourage my sons to do the same.

They do use the remotes and joysticks too. My oldest is a Top 30 NYC Baseball Player in HS (now a Sr). NYC has over 1MM students attending the school system.

By allowing them to use their physical tools this has help to build a serious layer of muscle on my oldest. The video games have allowed my oldest to build his mental capacity. By playing the "Madden" series of video games he has learned how to strategize, adapt, improvise and overcome.

By the way he has a 96 average in school. A combination of the two will build mind and body. The Marine Corps needs smarter Men and Women to fight future wars:usmc:

He does now want to get an earing. I shake my head about it. My brother who is also a Marine veteran has one along with several tats. I just pick the battles that I can win with him and let him define his own way thru life for himself.

Isrowei

09-15-07, 09:49 AM

jetdawgg

09-15-07, 10:03 AM

Is, I always challenge both my sons' intellectual capacity. My 4 year old is also very bright. I see his brain parts moving when I ask him questions like;

"Since we are in New Jersey, then where is Old Jersey?". I start cracking up but he is using his brain to try to figure out where it is. My oldest has always been a good athlete. As an 8 year old 3rd Baseman in LL, he one day made a play where the ball was hit to him.

He made the catch and then ran down the runner who was on 3rd base on his way to home (he is also an extremely fast runner). I asked how did he do that and he expalined to me that if the ball was hit to him, he thought that the runner would try to get home.

I never push the USMC on them. In fact my youngest just really found out about it in May at Fleet Week NYC. He had to tell MY mother that "daddy lived in the Marines":D (kids).

My oldest tells me that he would only go into the Marines, he is on his way to college next year to play BB. Still up in the air about which school (The U, Clemson, Ga, Md...). Who knows, maybe he will go to the Marines. I did after a year of college.

I know that they would both make fine Marines. No matter what I am proud of them:usmc:

greensideout

09-15-07, 10:00 PM

You know, since working here at recruit training, I've observed that most people can develop physical strength if given enough time. Even the most out-of-shape recruit can work himself into decent ability if he tries. But intelligence is a different matter. If a kid doesn't come with critical thinking skills, it's almost impossible to teach to him no matter how long we have to work with him.

Thus, I place a certain value on physical ability, but I am absolutely thankful for the smart, intelligent breed of young men and women that comprise the bulk of new blood coming into the Marine Corps.

You MAY be a Marine Officer, I don't know? You came into this site sounding more like a L/CPL who just got his first chance to lead. You are here hanging with enlisted Marines for the most part, what is taught about fraternizing now? You really have the term "intelligence" hung in your gizzard. I'm not sure what that's about with you? I never met a lieutenant as jacked up as you seem to be while I was in the Corps or the Army. It's time to get off your high horse and sound like a leader, a Marine Corps officer---SIR! Oh ya, remember that you are only as good as the success of your NCOs. Calling them stupid is not a good idea---:marine:

3077India

09-15-07, 10:27 PM

You MAY be a Marine Officer, I don't know? You came into this site sounding more like a L/CPL who just got his first chance to lead. You are here hanging with enlisted Marines for the most part, what is taught about fraternizing now? You really have the term "intelligence" hung in your gizzard. I'm not sure what that's about with you? I never met a lieutenant as jacked up as you seem to be while I was in the Corps or the Army. It's time to get off your high horse and sound like a leader, a Marine Corps officer---SIR! Oh ya, remember that you are only as good as the success of your NCOs. Calling them stupid is not a good idea---:marine:I just saw that Isrowei is a "Ring Knocker". Many congrats to him on his accomplishment, my brother-in-law graduated from West Point. :marine:

SlingerDun

09-15-07, 11:35 PM

Understood JettDawg, The examples i used may be considered extreme or at the least more uncommon than average. I'm familiar with both of these young men and neither of them is inclined to join the Military, that was added for effect. But s*** could happen. S*** DOES happen.

--->Dave

davblay

09-15-07, 11:56 PM

GSO----you and I have been out for a long time, as have many of our brothers on this site. The LT started out at PARRIS ISLAND and now he is an officer on the Island. My hats off to him as he has made the same start Chesty made, as a enlisted man. He has walked the walk, so I believe he can talk the talk! Like I said GSO, you and I, and most of the other Marines on this site, are a little outdated don't you think? He has the guts to come here and talk to us, answer or questions, give us the straight word. So who are we to challange his authority or position? When I went thru boot camp I was taught to respect officers and listen to what they say, not question or argue with them! I think we, as a whole, should thank the Lt for his time to come to this site, I know I appreciate him!

SEMPER FI to all my brothers and sisters

SlingerDun

09-16-07, 12:53 AM

I admire anyones ability's to potently express ideas and opinions without having to reveal status (barring necessary qualifications and referances for conformation on certain topics). Kinda puts everybody on even human terrain and requires the individual thinker to sift dirt and extract the nuggets.

If content contains "meat" and doesn't appear to be to green or tainted, it dont need USDA approval to plug a hole. IMNSHO.

--->Dave

Isrowei

09-16-07, 07:55 AM

You MAY be a Marine Officer, I don't know? ...Oh ya, remember that you are only as good as the success of your NCOs.

GSO, I am a Marine Officer. Not really a huge signifigance in that because I am the same guy that was a Marine Lance Corporal 10 years ago... just a little older and hopefully wiser now. I have tried to present my opinions, views, and ideas apart from my status and position because I firmly believe that ideas should rest on the weight of their own validity. And, as I mentioned before, truth can come from anybody... Pvt to General. I can disagree with quite a few people, but it does not mean I respect them less. Not at all. Remember when I said that you are only known by the things that you say, the things you write, and the actions you do? It has nothing to do with what you wear on your collar. In 10 years no one will remember the person who lead by rank only (except maybe in a negative light). A person who leads by the strength of ideas and a true caring for his men... will be remember for all time.

I don't believe I ever called any person.. and especially not NCOs particulalry.. "stupid". Trust me, I realize perhaps more-so than you how much my success depends on my NCOs. I trust them completely because they are truly the backbone by which the unit operates and is effective. I did however address certain ideas as "ignorant". Please notice my choice of words here. Ignorant does not mean stupid. It means uninformed. A lack of knowledge if you will. I truly believe that some of the views expressed earlier simply are grossly inconsiderate of the reality of leadership. I can support it with examples of why I believe so. However, I definately respect all the contributors who have posted here. Why? Because they're Marines first and foremost. And no matter what I think of their ideas, I know that the earned the same title I did. Second, they had the guts to bring their ideas forward for public view. I know a lot of people who wouldn't. Third, is that no matter what we throw around on these forums... any one of you guys would be welcome for a beer with me at the Brig 'n Brew here on PI, because .. dammit... I like hanging out and shooting the breeze with Marines, new or old.

I have met many Marines during my time in the Corps. I continue to meet more. I've argued up the chain and down the chain. In fact, I have an open invitation to all my Marines in my Series that if they don't like a policy or a decision I make, to come and talk to me and bring good, solid reasoning why it should be different. I listen to ideas, I like sound reasoning, and I'm not afraid to admit when someone has a better idea than mine. It's how we get better as an organization.

Isrowei

09-16-07, 08:01 AM

... my brother-in-law graduated from West Point. :marine:

Hehe, thanks! I don't wear rings though. Old habit from working in a squadron.

West Point has my respect though. I have some great memories of tearing up more than a few Philly bars after the game. They can hang... they can hang.. :beer:

bootlace15

09-16-07, 10:34 AM

sh!t happens!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

3077India

09-16-07, 11:40 AM

Hehe, thanks! I don't wear rings though. Old habit from working in a squadron.

West Point has my respect though. I have some great memories of tearing up more than a few Philly bars after the game. They can hang... they can hang.. :beer:Sounds like a couple of our fellow Marines here are a bit resentful (ie envious). I must admit I'm envious.:p Graduating from one of the academies is quite an accomplishment, and nothing to be sneared at.:cool: My brother-in-law was first generation German-American born here, yet a graduate of West Point. He doesn't like to brag about it, but I tell him you don't have to, since my sister does that for him enough as it is. Although I must say some ring knockers have been known to be absolute snobs about being an academy grad, no sense in that.

BUT I DIGRESS... ...sorry for the thread hijacking.

Isrowei

09-16-07, 12:29 PM

Ok, after sitting on this for a few hours, I can't let this go. I don't know where you got your definition of fraternization from, but this ain't it. First, this is a forum for ALL Marines. Not just...

greensideout

09-16-07, 02:25 PM

"Enlisted men are stupid but are crafty and sly and bear watching." ---Army Officer Training Manual of the 1800's.

Welcome on board Lieutenant! :beer:

kingkong

09-16-07, 03:25 PM

Hell I thank my DI's for making me the hardcore s.o.b. that i am today. I went in , in 1990 , their teachings helped me survive the gulf. To all the DI's i thank you for making me a warrior,to you wussie's who cant handle earning the title, join the freakin airforce and let real warriors be trained and take the helm!!!!!! oohrah 03's. semper fi!!!!!!!!

Isrowei

09-16-07, 03:48 PM

"Enlisted men are stupid but are crafty and sly and bear watching." ---Army Officer Training Manual of the 1800's.

Pssst....! Army... :marine: Hehe :beer:

greensideout

09-16-07, 04:17 PM

Pssst....! Army... :marine: Hehe :beer:

We got off to a bad start Isrowei. We view things in a somewhat different way but my guess would be that our view is more alike then not.
I'm proud of my service in the Corps and yes, the Army too.

Not as stellar as yours but what the he11. :beer:

greensideout

09-16-07, 04:31 PM

SlingerDun

09-16-07, 06:00 PM

Titles proliferate about like discount coupons in a foul wind, the weekend symposium holds the promise of status upon payment, while the high school senior is once again reduced to boot freshman, passing may reveal who has acquired or remains titled in the after life--->SlingerDun '07

Isrowei

09-16-07, 07:33 PM

We got off to a bad start Isrowei. We view things in a somewhat different way but my guess would be that our view is more alike then not.
I'm proud of my service in the Corps and yes, the Army too.

Not as stellar as yours but what the he11. :beer:

Bygones GSO, no worries. And I would be the last one to call my time stellar.. there's still a few shenanigans I'm glad they didn't find out before I left Oki.. hehe :beer:

jahhead88

09-16-07, 09:48 PM

It amazes me that some people sign up for the Marines, go to bootcamp, are often warned by other Marines about how tough it is mentally and physically, and then complain of abuse when they get there.
Send a Marine NCO through drill instructor school. Tell him or her to train Marines and prepare them for the possibility of combat, but tie there hands. Having been through Parris Island, I had at least two occasions to ruin the career of the Heavy in my platoon. And believe me the thought of reporting him came across my mind more than once. On one occasion he bent the cleaning rod on my rifle cleaning gear and threw it down the middle of the squadbay. But looking back on it, he did me a favor.

Many years later when I worked in a juvenile detention facility in Missouri, I was able to stay calm and deal with kids who were being aggressive and in some cases needed to be restrained. I've been cussed, and insulted by these kids; and now looking back I can thank the Heavy in my platoon for riding me. To have reported him would have been abuse.

jahhead88

09-16-07, 09:50 PM

Almost forgot. What do they define as abuse? Because if you look at some of the definitions out there; if I fart by you and it stinks, I've just comitted an act of abuse.

greensideout

11-15-07, 07:11 PM

Well he got 6, 6 and a kick but I think the following says it all--

Prior to the courts-martial, Glass had been an exemplary Marine, according to both the defense and prosecution.

Pfc. Bradley Montgomery, 20, who was one of the recruits in Glass' platoon, said the sentence was too harsh. Montgomery testified on behalf of the prosecution under orders.

"This whole thing is ridiculous," he said. "Sgt. Glass thought of us as his own kids."

hrscowboy

11-15-07, 08:04 PM

I say screw the new Marine Corps lets go back to the OLD CORPS way..
3 mile runs 2 times a day
25 mile force marches once a month
all PFT test done in boots and uts.. Then we"ll see who seperates the Men from the Boys.. 3 or 4 inspections a week , get stupid with an NCO you serve time in the brig a red line brig at that...

sparkie

11-15-07, 08:25 PM

cowboy,,, you know what' red line ' is like? Hell in a handbasket. I was wishin I was dead. Try Indock. Sh!tten yerself was a good thing.

OLE SARG

11-15-07, 09:07 PM

Great point to bring up 3077India.

I, like Sgt Lep, am going to withhold judgement on this until more is released on this. As stated before, I got THUMPED more than once in Bootcamp and probably deserved it. But, then again, I was not brutalized!!!!!

SEMPER FI,

hrscowboy

11-15-07, 09:21 PM

Yelp was a prisoner chaser at the red line brig in GITMO for a year it was good duty 24 on 48 off ...

Big Jim

11-15-07, 10:46 PM

There are alot of really good points of argument here on this subject. But I think we can all see there is a fine line between brutalization and abuse. Who is to define this? because when i was...

Gary Hall

11-16-07, 06:29 AM

Hrscowboy: Continuing evidence will prove your thoughts are correct. Gary Hall, Tyler, TX.

Isrowei

11-16-07, 08:44 AM

Isrowei, you ARE on a very high horse and I'm sorry your arrogance blinds you to the point of being ignorant, (you're word, not mine), but I believe its disrespectful and dishonoring to have an argument with an older and more experienced Marine who has dealt with more of these issues in the past than you can understand with your present state of mind. I also belive the new generation can yake lessons from the old. HINT-HINT!!

Big Jim, I mean no disrespect to any individual, whether current or former Marine. However, I am free to, and I believe, obligated to, confront opinions and ideas that are contrary to the Marine Corps Ethos and our way of doing business. That's not being disrespectful... It's refining our Corps and making people better by discussing oftimes difficult subjects.

I claim as my sources the leadership principles of the Marine Corps, our guidelines of leadership as expressed in our NCO, SNCO, and Officer courses of instruction, and countless hundreds of military thinkers who have talked, written, and practiced GOOD military leadership over the hundreds of years of global military history.

What are your sources?

Big Jim, I don't have a problem disagreeing with "older" Marines. I don't have a problem addressing what I feel is wrong. If one thing is crystal clear is that age and experience DOES NOT confer legitimacy of ideas. If you find it disrespectful, that's unfortunate. Find a legitmate basis to refute my position and make a counter-argument. If you have a problem with me personally, address it off-line in PMs.

If you open up your mind a little and even though you disagree, what you believe just sometime doesn't fit so neatly into right and wrong...it just doesn't work that way.. sometimes. When that happens the best judgement calls go into play here...the RIGHT ones!! You want to challenge regulations and doctines with the fact that there isn't a person who can't make a good judgement call?!?!?! I understand there are policies for everything nowadays, but what happens when a situation arises that doesn't fit into the regs? I think its MADE to fit into the round hole, by the policy makers, even though its a square peg, This isn't about the abuse of recruits anymore...its about what's right and wrong...but the thing about it is...its about what YOU think is right and wrong and that's what matter most isn't it?.

Actually, as I stated before... it's about what the Marine Corps thinks is right and wrong that matters. I've only ever quoted Marine Corps regulations, Marine Corps leadership, and widely-respected military thinkers (endorsed by the Commandant) when putting forth my arguments. That is why I am amazed there is so much friction.

Well, you're also self-righteous and maybe you're entitled...but guess what...so are we!! We earned the title and the right to be opiniated...we endured the thrashings, waterloggings, smackings and the sandfleas, chiggers and crabs!! Can you tell me this isn't ALL a form of ABUSE?!?! Well...I'm still here...and so are the generations past!!!!!!! And stronger and prouder because of it!!! If the harshness and toughness wasn't there....WE WOULDN'T BE MARINES!!! By removing this aspect of training, we become somewhat soft as does our integrity and that IS one of the leaderaship traits of the NCO...and you say it hasn't happened but it has...really...it lowers the high standards of achievement and self-satidfaction after going through it and I've seen the changes brought into active duty by this "new" generation. On top of everything else, I just want to say, for the most part, the Corps has become better in alot of ways...ALOT of ways...but this simply isn't one of them.

:!:

We all have a right to our opinions. Yours and Mine. Some of them don't happen to be right with regard to the Marine Corps philosophy, that's all.

Please tell me where our "Integrity" has been lost? The Marines of today are doing just as much in the areas of combat effectiveness and leadership and are widely outstripping past generations in terms of education and advancement. They aren't "soft". That's a throwback to "when I was in, we had it REALLY bad..." kind of thought. We have less drug usage than 20-30 years ago. We have less racial problems than 20-30 years ago. We have markedly less disciplinary problems than 20-30 years ago. So tell me again, where are they SOFT?!?

All of you are seasoned Marines, with years of life to accompany your years in the Marine Corps. I would take a boot today and stack him up against any boot from years past. I would also take a Sergeant today and stack him up against any Sergeant from years past. The proof is on the front page of any newspaper. Sure, I've seen changes in the last 10 years. Some of them I like, some of them I don't like. Those are my personal preferences. BUT... I haven't seen a loss in our combat effectiveness, a loss in our integrity, or a loss in our strength of tradition and pride in the title of Marine.

If anything, I have only seen those things become stronger.

jetdawgg

11-16-07, 09:08 AM

Is, that was a very well scripted post. I really understand what you stated.

The USMC Men and Women of today are just as good as ever.

The point that I think that you may have missed is the USMC value of 'tradition'. I did not see that mentioned (in that post anyway).

The USMC as you know is built on tradition. Traditions in the USMC are much vaunted. With the heritage of our Corps seemingly being threatened here by acts like those who spoke out on the DI, there is a great deal of resistance.

To break with the USMC 'tradition' of being 'shown the Marine Corps way' is one that older Marines will have a great deal of difficulty to part with. Fighting and toughness is a part of boot camp. In PISC I had three fights on the island.

The second one the DI's showed me something about fighting. It is a lifelong lesson, I can tell you that. We don't want newer and future Marines to go without those lessons. I think that there is a thought that when needed, that methodology of DI delivery will be sorely missed.

We do not want ANY Marine to go without that experience. Just the thought of it happening can add to the discipline of Marines. Tradition means a lot to us as Marines can you address that for me a bit?

SF

Isrowei

11-16-07, 09:47 AM

.... BUT... I haven't seen a loss in our combat effectiveness, a loss in our integrity, or a loss in our strength of tradition and pride in the title of Marine.

If anything, I have only seen those things become stronger.

Jet, I didn't address it directly or in detail, but I would agree with you that tradition is important, and that the tradition that you (speaking collectively to the older Marines) value so highly is still in place.

Perhaps it is an issue of unfamiliarity with the current recruit training process. You mentioned when you went through PISC, you had three fights that really brought home the seriousness of the task that you were embarking upon.

I'll address this in two parts: First will be my own boot experience and the second will be the current. I want to show the continuity of values even though some of the actual practices might have changed.

I did four Pugil sticks bouts and two hand-to-hand bouts when I went through PISC. We also did LINE training, during which we engaged in numerous "mock" engagements, bayonet training, knife fighting, etc. The bottom line is that we knew very well and were aquainted with the feeling of being hit and hitting someone else. It was done in a manner that taught us how to respond to an aggressor, how to choose your manner of attack, and where to strike to get the most advantage for your effort.

Current recruit training also has four pugil stick bouts including a 2-vs-2 bout at the crucible. There is only one hand-to-hand bout, but.. on the flip side, the martial arts program is far more intensive and immersive than the line training I received. Coupled with tactics and movements are lessons is character, leadership, ethics, and what it means to be a Marine. The program is designed to strengthen and train the mind as well as the body. Recruits undergo many hours of remediation in the basic movements with time built in to practice with each other. Again, the focus of training is to create a thinking warrior who chooses his response with cool focus and calm application rather than brash response. This is only basic training of course, but I think if you observed them in their bouts, you would agree that the vast majority of them grasp the concepts readily.

The tradition of being a Marine is in tough, realistic training. Toughness comes from expectation of a standard. Saying that Marines are tough only because they got hit in boot camp lowers the value of every Marine currently out there who didn't get hit. Am I less of a Marine because my Drill Instructors didn't hit me? I defy you to say that I am. My Drill Instructors modeled the absolute BEST of the Marine Corps to me. Strict adherance to the rules they swore to uphold. Demanding excellence of themselves and their recruits, they trained me and my fellow recruits to surpass every standard of recruit training by generous application of the tools they were allowed to use. I will tell you this, my respect for them lay in their actions and professionalism and not in their physical interaction with me. By the second week, I WANTED to make them happy. I WANTED them to be pleased by the platoon. The worst thing that could happen was my SDI walking out to us and sadly telling us that we had disappointed him because he knew we could do better. He never touched me. He didn't have to. It's a farce to think that that's the only way to train... or in my opinion, the best way to train.

When people think of Marines, they think of the ramrod straight, 8th & I Silent Drill Team image of men and women who will do the right thing... always. They think of us as above the pettiness that runs rampant through the Army and Navy. They see men and women who are respectful, helpful, hardworking, and capable. We're still training to that standard. And physical abuse hasn't been tolerated on any Marine Corps Recruit Depot for over 50 years. Tell me why it's so necessary? Or is it just the fond rememberances and nostalgia kicking in mixed with a little ignorance of the current training standards?

Our traditions are stronger than ever. If you disagree... I challenge you to prove it.

Isrowei

11-16-07, 10:22 AM

The second one the DI's showed me something about fighting. It is a lifelong lesson, I can tell you that. We don't want newer and future Marines to go without those lessons. I think that there is a thought that when needed, that methodology of DI delivery will be sorely missed.

I didn't quite address this and I really wanted to. I fail to see how a DI hitting a recruit (who can't hit back) is "showing" them anything fighting related. I know in any fight I've been in, if the guy hit me, I hit him back. If you argue that learning how to take a blow is important.. I would agree. That is why we teach "body hardening". This is a Marine Corps standard for all Marines and is part of the Martial Arts program, it just starts a Boot Camp. Basically, individuals stand facing each other and alternate striking on various parts of the body, usually around nerve centers at about 50-70% strength. It forces Marines to feel pain, not overwhelming pain, but to deal with it and be able to function in spite of it. Chest, shoulders, arms, and legs are all toughened by repeated strikes.

If you mean the DIs modeled fighting behavior by demonstrating techniques to the recruits (not on them), then I would tell you ... it still happens today. Every martial arts session begins with Drill Instructors demonstrating the techniques on each other. First slow, so the process can be seen in small pieces. Then fast, so it can be seen as one fluid movement. When they go to their bouts, the DIs fight first... full speed. We had a video of two of our DIs going at it at my last crucible.. let me tell you, they modeled it well! They knocked each other in the air and back 4 feet with their blows.

Drill Instructors are teaching more today than I was taught ten years ago. The DIs I had these past few cycles hammered first aid into these kids, because often, a Marine is the only medical aid available when his buddy gets hit. They demanded excellence in marksmanship because a missed shot could mean death to a fellow squadmember. They teach drill, but not just for drill's sake (like I was taught), but for the attention to detail and instant obedience it inspires. Sure, we all learned the same movements 10 years ago, but the focus of training.... the "why" ...is everything.

jetdawgg

11-16-07, 10:29 AM

Is, your post is clear and concise to me. Thanks.

The fights I mentioned were outside of the hand-to-hand and Pugil Stick combat training. The Pugil Stick traiining was important as that is where the second fight took place.

This idiot hit me after the whistle and I grabbed his facemask and pulled him to the ground. I then proceeded to see how far in the mud he go, face first. The recruit was from another platoon.

When we returned to the barracks the DI's let me know about being a tough guy as they showed me who the tough guys were. I think that in a way I gained some respect from them (DI's) also as I was promoted to a leadership postion (scribe). I did not show excellence in that instance, I got hit and I regressed to a previous mindset (I grew up in the Bronx and Harlem)

I also agree with you when you state that any Marine who did not get hit is just as much a Marine who did. I have the same issue as I am called a 'lib':D .

Like I said in the other thread, the Marines I meet today carry on the necessary 'esprit de corps'. I even think that they are generally bigger now and of course they are better educated than the Marines of yore (for the most part). I still think that you can't keep Marines idle for long periods of time as the propensity to revert to 'physical activities' raises.

SF:usmc:

Isrowei

11-16-07, 10:40 AM

Hehe, I hear there Jet. I may not agree with you politically, but political sway isn't what defines being a Marine.

jetdawgg

11-16-07, 10:55 AM

Hehe, I hear there Jet. I may not agree with you politically, but political sway isn't what defines being a Marine.

Good thing too:D

sparkie

11-16-07, 06:55 PM

Funny Dawgg,,, We have always fought on opposite sides of the field, but we want the same outcome. love you, Bro. P.S. . ,,,;> SF

tripledog

11-17-07, 09:01 AM

What a thread!!!

On the one side, we have a current Marine, young, intelligent, brave, trained properly, (he says) and is currently at the training place.

On the other,, we have us old grizzled salts who were bad asses when we went in and proper training took hard knocks to bring us back to life. Hazing? Put simply , that meant who was the baddest ass with the right way of doing things. Seems, in most cases that I saw, the DIs were the winners, and had the proper way of training. (In my case it figured out that way) Must have been pretty good, we did well in nam, shame the politicans didnt go to boot with us then. Maybe we could have come out ahead.

The one thing I fail to see mentioned is, is that todays marine is educated,, smart, etc. Do you think that in the olden days of real Marines, they were the worst of the worse that joined the corps? We were the throw aways of our generation and no "proper training" was gonnna change my (our) thinking. But when that senior DI, stuck that swagger stick in my guts and hit me in the back with it every time I didnt stand at attention when he said to, I got properly trained. Physical with me and others? Darned right, that was the only way to get out attentiion. Maybe the men were just more hardened to the world back then. Sonny boy, be glad you didnt have to do it in the olden days, you may just have the same attitude us older idiots, uneducated ones have. Thank god for the education, economy, etc that allows you to be what you are.

But remember this, Marines, like me, allowed it to happen for you.

So the argument of who is what, is to me, A MARINE, immatural.

jetdawgg

11-17-07, 10:16 AM

I told that newbie to the board that Sparkie is mean:D 
 
The Chargers are ready to make a move now....

Gary Hall

11-17-07, 10:40 AM

How to achieve it? If the reason for the USMC is to protect the Nation, then I believe evidence from 1775 to date confirms considering what a European friend said to me the other day: " . . . you guys haven't done anything since WWII . . . ". Politicing, negotiating, lawyering, B.S.'ing, etc will be our downfall. To win any battle, when you're attacked in the middle of any bridge, then the winning strategy is to attack in ALL directions and kill 'em all. Only then will you have earned a few friends, when everybody's had enough. My DI, for Platoon 3, at MCRD San Diego, SSGT Douglas D. Gardner, who as of 24 Dec., 1941, when Wake Island fell, was a PFC, SN 288139, in the 1st Defense Bn (700 strong). He survived 44 months of Japanese captivity. I suggest reading some of the accounts of what those guys experienced. I am told that history is not to be a required subject in institutions of "higher learning...". This way, future generations maybe will not have their aspirations clouded by past injustices and crimes. The goal is to " ...remain free & clear..." (Read Ignorant). Since I do read History, I can carry a grudge better than nearly anybody. Thanks for the words, tripledog. In spite of the efforts of the "intelligent ones", nothing on this earth upgrades itself with time. Entropy rules on earth. In junior college, I learned that on earth, possible worthiness was maybe possible as a consequence of considering:
1.) All religions are right;
2.) Some religions are right;
3.) Only ONE religion might be right.
My professor said the choice was ours, individually.
And I should like to point out, that when I took this course, (1985-1988), here in good old Tyler, TX, the course was not permitted to be presented on the TJC Campus proper, we borrowed a room in a Church across the street from the TJC Campus. Out of a student body of some 8000, 3 students took the course. BTW, I regret that General Vandergriff, my first Commandant (Major General), has been attributed to have promulgated "... the bended knee is not a tradition of our Corps...". Gary Hall, W-3-1, 50-51.

jetdawgg

11-17-07, 10:56 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zuctkYYywZ0&feature=related

Pugil Sticks

skaterjon89

11-17-07, 11:21 AM

I was an abused kid, I read what the guy reported the DI's doing to him...lol I don't ever think he had a golf club brought to his back before...I signed up to be one of the toughest MOFO's the country has to offer...

greensideout

12-08-07, 09:34 PM

Marine DI Says He Followed Superiors 
2007-12-08 14:06:53 
By CHELSEA J. CARTER Associated Press Writer 
 
 
 
SAN DIEGO (AP) — A Marine drill instructor convicted of abusing 23 recruits says he has...

HellMarcher514

12-09-07, 02:16 AM

I've got to say that I do think that training is now WAY TOO EASY and WAY TOO GENTLE. I don't think I know of single other Marine who graduated out of PLT 1042/C who feels they really earned their...

Gary Hall

12-09-07, 07:16 AM

HellMarcher514, I appreciate your words: "... way too easy & way too gentle...". This fiasco is all BS and too much ado about nothing, which in my view is what will continue to result from the misapplication of females into combat roles. And people, don't give me any trash talk about my words being sexist, time and events bear me out. And what does the USMC do in response for the alleged abusive methods of Sgt. Glass? I believe females were designed to have the capability of performing a superior and worthy purpose in life, that is the creation of life itself, not the taking thereof. And the running of a Marine Combat Command by a female Marine will in no way produce a unit as illustrated by the picture on the dust cover of Col. Joseph H. Alexander's book "A FELLOWSHIP OF VALOR". Those guys, Officers and Men, are real Marines, not Wannabe's. This female air headed policy that resulted in Sgt. Glass' DD has in effect ruined and wasted this young man's life, and in addition potentially as well as numerous others. Mr. Commandant, again I say to you to transfer the CG @ MCRD to Hot Dog & Sircus Co. at Washington, DC in order to minimize any future damage at MCRD San Diego. And I expect you to review and rescind the DD of Sgt. Glass and again I say a $25 fine would be more than sufficient for "... stomped on toiletry kits, breaking razors and soap containers ...". My God, this is unreal, until I look around and notice who composes the H & S outfits of the US: Ted Kennedy, Barney Frank, Alcee Hastings (Along w/ Bill Borders), the distinguished Senator from Idaho, LBJ (& I don't mean Little Beagle, Jr., he's OK), Hillary & Bill Clinton, ET many AL's. Girls, if you wannabe Marines, can you accept this former Marine practice, that of a short arm inspection? Here's the way (I personally know) it used to go: In platoon formation, in public view, broad (no pun intended) daylight, the command would be: Marines, get ready for a short arm inspection, drop your panties, HO! Which would be followed by the duly (and legal) inspection (careful) of your pubic area. General, the bottom line is YOU have ruined a young man' life, for triviality. Gary Hall

Covey_Rider

12-09-07, 07:56 AM

A lot has changed over the course of a little over a year. While I was in boot camp...we may not have gotten the stick...but we learned quick. I remember black friday vividly, I was on line while my J was yelling and I eye-balled him. Next thing I knew his fist was in my face and I was flipping over a foot locker into a rack. We learned very quick. Our 3rd hat was nicknamed Sgt Dropkick for a reason. We worked as a team and no matter how much we hated our DI's to begin with. We were loyal and we knew that it was all necessary. By graduation I loved every one of my DI's. Still do.

Sniper10

12-09-07, 12:32 PM

OLE SARG

12-09-07, 04:44 PM

Wah! Wah! Wah! - Let me see .... I went through boot and survived to be a career Marine. I took a phisical beating from each of my DI's and did not tell on them....I figured they were just doing what they had to to get me ready to fight in combat.

These people need to grow up and understand that the DI's are alot easier on them than any enemy will be.

Semper Fi,
:flag: Steve

I agree Sniper10 - TOO ****ING MUCH OF THE ******* PC BULL****!!!!!!!

If there are whining weeners, kick their ****ing ass out of my Corps!!!!!!!!!!!!

SEMPER FI,

jetdawgg

12-09-07, 07:03 PM

I agree Sniper10 - TOO ****ING MUCH OF THE ******* PC BULL****!!!!!!!

If there are whining weeners, kick their ****ing ass out of my Corps!!!!!!!!!!!!

SEMPER FI,

OLE sarge is the best:D:usmc:

Big Jim

01-10-08, 08:27 PM

I agree Sniper10 - TOO ****ING MUCH OF THE ******* PC BULL****!!!!!!!

If there are whining weeners, kick their ****ing ass out of my Corps!!!!!!!!!!!!

SEMPER FI,

YOU'RE GAWDDAMN STINKIN RIGHT!!!!!!!

kaboom1371

01-10-08, 08:48 PM

damn strait ole sarge, we have been doing just fine our way for 232 years. people just need to leave the Corps the fuc alone.

Semper Fi Dogs

roadislin

05-05-08, 03:54 PM

http://64.233.169.104/search?q=cache:VQJNBjhgZngJ:www.usafa.edu/isme/JSCOPE06/Creely06.html+Recruit+Abuse+a+culture+of+competing +values+Creely&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=3&gl=us<O:p

ecfree

05-05-08, 04:36 PM

Hey roadislin,Proflle up.:evilgrin:

usmchauer

05-05-08, 04:49 PM

I thought about posting this a while ago, but the thread had long been left alone so I decided to not to bring it up. Now that it's TTT I think I'll chime in. I've always wondered, in another 30 years will the quarterdeck or being IT'd be considered "physical abuse". No, the Drill Instructor's aren't putting their hands on the recruits, but it is by his/her command that the excercises are being carried out. You sweat, your muscles hurt and you're in pain. I think in a few more generations someone will make an argument that it is degrading and could be considered hazing. I'm not in agreement with any of that, but I see the Corps becoming more and more PC so anything is possible. I'd like to hear some replies, somebody please tell me I'm wrong.

sparkie

05-05-08, 05:42 PM

Think about this. At one point in time, the Army boot camp was tough.
I am thankful the Marine Corps boot held on as long as it did. As far as the future,,,, Not sure we have one.

sgt.r.n.davis

05-05-08, 06:37 PM

Yes! I Agree, Leave The Marine Corp Boot Camp And Training The Way Its Always Been! It Weeds Out The Weak Ones!!!

They Will Be Turning Out Like Clinton Or Obama...ouch ...what A Way To Go Through Life!!!

Twitchell

05-05-08, 06:43 PM

I think we can all agree on this. As long as we are able to train Marines to be as mentaly prepared as possible "NO STRESS CARDS", push them physicaly to 110% as much as possible (includeing hand to...

pablox1139

06-04-08, 01:15 AM

The more you sweat in training the less you bleed in combat......Pain and Discipline sir!!!! OOOORAH!!

Jim Oliver

06-06-08, 05:04 AM

Mountainwilliam,

The apathy started on 9/11.

On that day, I was working for the State of Maryland. They sent us home early. Why? I don't know. I don't think that my office was a target of interest to anyone.

Anyway, I didn't go home. I headed straight to the Marine Corps recruiting Office. (it was the only recruiting office open that day...go figure)

What surprised, and angered, me was that the only people in there PO'd enough to enlist were me and two other Marines from the Vietnam era.

I expected there to be lines a mile long. But no young guys were there.

The S/Sgt smirked at us, took our names and kicked us out. He didn't seem too interested himself.

MotherGoose

06-17-08, 03:38 PM

And on a personal note, I have yet to meet a female who I actually respect as a leader. I'm not saying I'll have trouble taking orders from a female superior, because I won't -- orders are orders, no matter who they come from. I'm just saying that from what I saw as a civilian...women are incapable leaders. Church, school, etc. I have yet to see one I can honestly say I respect. They just don't handle things right...too much emotion, not nearly enough hard rationality -- even the "analytically minded" ones.

Nevertheless, I'll obey by rank, not gender. 'Just saying though.....

You probably won't get many females who will agree with this, but I have to chime in here and say that I agree with you in certain aspects. I remember when I was going through the SSgt course on Hansen, I would constantly get into p*ssing contests with this other female SSgt. Her stance was that she should be able to have an infantry MOS. My stance was that females shouldn't have infantry MOS's, for several reasons. There were no males in the class that were on my side, they all took the pc route (so as to not look sexist) so I was alone in my defense but I didn't care. I am not trying to offend any female, but females can't inspire the warrior spirit to a battalion of male Marines like another male can. When it comes to some things, only men can inspire other men. There are outstanding females leaders and always will be but name me one who is an inspiration for Marine Corps infantry? (okay, Carmen Electra doesn't count!) What female leader were you taught about in boot camp that inspired you? I would be surprised if you were even taught who Molly Marine was, like it was drilled into my platoon's head at PI.
I'm just giving my opinion, hope no one freaks out and goes on a hazing rant against me.
:usmc:

ecfree

06-17-08, 03:51 PM

You probably won't get many females who will agree with this, but I have to chime in here and say that I agree with you in certain aspects. I remember when I was going through the SSgt course on Hansen, I would constantly get into p*ssing contests with this other female SSgt. Her stance was that she should be able to have an infantry MOS. My stance was that females shouldn't have infantry MOS's, for several reasons. There were no males in the class that were on my side, they all took the pc route (so as to not look sexist) so I was alone in my defense but I didn't care. I am not trying to offend any female, but females can't inspire the warrior spirit to a battalion of male Marines like another male can. When it comes to some things, only men can inspire other men. There are outstanding females leaders and always will be but name me one who is an inspiration for Marine Corps infantry? (okay, Carmen Electra doesn't count!) What female leader were you taught about in boot camp that inspired you? I would be surprised if you were even taught who Molly Marine was, like it was drilled into my platoon's head at PI.
I'm just giving my opinion, hope no one freaks out and goes on a hazing rant against me.
:usmc:
Hey MotherGoose,This may be a dunb question.
Who in the world is Molly Marine ?:confused:
I never heard of her.

Phantom Blooper

06-17-08, 04:08 PM

ecfree........

http://www.leatherneck.com/forums/showthread.php?t=626

:evilgrin:

ecfree

06-17-08, 04:27 PM

Thank You.
You learn something new every day.
Marine "Annie Snyder",was quite a woman.:thumbup:
God bless her soul.

sparkie

06-17-08, 05:20 PM

About Woman Marines,,,,:beer:

What was not known at the time was the fact that a U.S. Marine, serving aboard Old Ironsides, as George Baker, was actually Lucy Brewer. Eventually the Marine Corps reluctantly acknowledged that Lucy Brewer was perhaps the very first woman marine. Here's the way the Historical Division of the USMC tells the Lucy Brewer story:

"No compilation of legends would be complete without mention of Lucy Brewer. A farm girl from Massachusetts, Lucy Brewer was the legendary first woman Marine. The War of 1812 was raging when Lucy arrived at Boston. Friendless in the strange city, she met a woman who seemed eager to take a stranger into her home. Lucy was surprised that one woman could have so many daughters, but she soon discovered that home was just a house. Unsuited to a life of sin, Lucy fled her benefactress, donned men's clothing, and found refuge in the Marine Corps. No one discovered she was a woman, and as a member of the "Constitution's" Marine guard, she saw action in some of the bloodiest sea fights of the war. Her exploits came to light when she published an autobiographical account of her experiences. She described her heroism in the major battles of the "Constitution" with such details as manning the fighting tops as a marksman, taking toll of the British with musket fire. True or not, the story of Lucy Brewer makes a wonderful addition to the colorful legends about the Marine Corps."

It would be over one hundred years before the Marine Corps seriously began to recruit women - August 1918 - to be specific.

Sounds like a Marine to me,,,, From a Bordello to a battle.

SlingerDun

06-18-08, 06:48 PM

I'd like to hear some replies, somebody please tell me I'm wrong.What happens when a teen goes from moms minivan taxi service and happy meals one day, to hoofin it and hard chow trays the next. Shock! And the only relief is to stretch the umbilical cord via U.S.P.S and enough mom doe's write enough congress joe's declaring prince's letters as evidence of abuse, and boot camp protocol gets tweaked and quiffed. It took years like wind and water eroding stone but here it is. IMNSHO video's in boot camp are redundant, nobody needs to see clips on the crucible, drill, ass chewings etc...Theres plenty of paintball camps and reality shows available to keep 'gentlemen's sons' appeased

I've always wondered, in another 30 years will the quarterdeck or being IT'd be considered "physical abuse"Well it is physical abuse. Kids in the wrestling room often use the word torture and display signs of abuse towards the end of practice. I also think about it daily when an ill tempered horse bigger and stronger than me jerks my chain *shrug*

It's certainly possible that IT thrashing could become a crime as one generation of TV/video gamers wearing bone and muscle density the consistency of velveeta sire progeny of the same. A youngster who has never whipped and spurred suddenly feels stinging pain, torture and fear from hard physical and mental labor. Some will break down, cry and yearn for the tit. If it becomes the adolescent majority with no quitting allowed...theres your abuse.

--->Dave