Dragunov?

[daggertiger]

Somebody showed me these pictures and claim that the Marines fielded SVDs at some point in Iraq. Before I send some harsh words his way, can you guys confirm that SVD has never been either issued or approved? http://i127.photobucket.com/albums/p150/mritva/431693376wecgggph6su.jpg http://i127.photobucket.com/albums/p150/mritva/523952397qxdfexph6fw.jpg

[Messenger]

The M40 is not the only weapon used by Marine snipers. In fact Marines have tested many weapon systems and modifications over the years. I can not remember seeing a SVD as a weapon issued in mainstream Marine Corps but I would think a modified version is likely to have been in play at least a few times.

Prior to the Gulf War and operations in and around Afghanistan and Iraq the US primarily trained and equipped for Jungle and Woodland battles but with the advent of the last decade in a half having so much activity in and around desert environments with vast open spaces I would think it reasonable to assume that they would be experimenting with many options that would conform to the Geneva and other conventions and treaties. Legally you cant just go shoot someone with a LAW rocket. I am reminded of a cartoon where I saw once where a Marine was firing a shoulder fire tomahawk missile, funny but not exactly practical ROFL.

It is possible that what you are looking at is a captured weapon that some were playing around with when the photos were taken. Lets face it, snipers don’t carry two rifles, nor would they gear up as these guys are, but I have no idea on how they gear up a “designated marksman“ which I know are use a lot in these areas.

So in short, I would use the standard UFO sighting technique when reporting on this; “I saw something but I am not exactly sure what it was”. LOL
Simper Fi

[Echo_Four_Bravo]

It isn't the DMR, that is for sure. But, there could well have been a Marine with one in his hands at some point- or many points. From time to time the weapons of the enemy may be used against them.

[Messenger]

After thoughts;

After posting the above reply I looked closer at the two photos. And noticed that for one there was no spotting scopes or binoculars. No flak jackets or helmets being warn or in sight. I see no insignia or rank that would not only indicate that these are in fact US Marines or even US Troops for that matter.

A trained US Marine sniper would not make themselves such an easy target as to be standing on a roof in the manor that these individuals are in these photos. I see many other details that lead me to believe that these are not “Snipers” but as I mentioned in the above post, I am not aware how “Designated Marksman” gear up or operate.

I would not be quick to confront the person on this matter because there is a lot of unknowns. His, yours and my ideas of the differences between snipers and unit designated marksman (UDM) will differ. I personally have serious doubts that those in the photographs are UDM’s or snipers but like I said I would NOT be likely to confront anyone over the validity of the photos or the fact that US Marines are, or are not using dragonovs modified or otherwise.

The fact is that even most Marines can not tell you what the preferred distance to a target is for a trained sniper. Over the years I have heard many fakers tell how they were snipers and like most fakers I can figure out if they are faking in just a few minutes of talking to them. The devil is in the details.

If I was just handed those two photos and was asked what my thought were about them I would probably indicate that it looked like some servicemen were on a rooftop probably in or around Iraq or Afghanistan and they were likely being orientated to the area and enemy weapons. I would not think that they were snipers but I would have to consider the possibility that they were UDM’s not actually working but possible training.

Simper Fi

[SkilletsUSMC]

Looking ot the archetecture of the buildings that is definately in the Mid East so its natural to assume its Iraq. Theres no doubt that the man in the photos is a Marine. Hes got way to much USMC issued equipment to not be. Id say hes posing, its not smart to expose yourself like that on a real mission. Its not good to have photos of you not wearing a kevlar either.

For daggertiger,

The way you would come about some SVDs is to either kill a Muj sniper that had one, or to find them in a raid or weapons cashe sweep. Your Company armory will not had have SVDs just hanging arround to issue, and Marines recieve no training with them. But thats not to say that a Marine couldnt find a usefull way to employ one. I know I carried an AK 47 on one patrol, with my M16 slung over my back.

[daggertiger]

Looking ot the archetecture of the buildings that is definately in the Mid East so its natural to assume its Iraq. Theres no doubt that the man in the photos is a Marine. Hes got way to much USMC issued equipment to not be. Id say hes posing, its not smart to expose yourself like that on a real mission. Its not good to have photos of you not wearing a kevlar either.
I think they're smart enough not to expose their full face. Unless you know them personally, there's no way you can tell who they are. If you know them personally, I can't imagine you would rat them out just for posing in a couple of pictures.;)


For daggertiger,

The way you would come about some SVDs is to either kill a Muj sniper that had one, or to find them in a raid or weapons cashe sweep. Your Company armory will not had have SVDs just hanging arround to issue, and Marines recieve no training with them. But thats not to say that a Marine couldnt find a usefull way to employ one. I know I carried an AK 47 on one patrol, with my M16 slung over my back.

I'm not a Marine, but I know enough that I'm 99.99% sure the Corps doesn't officially issue nor approve SVD, let alone train Marines to use them. I just need to hear from a Marine that it is indeed the case. Of course, people find all sorts of weapons and play with them, but it's not strictly official.

[yellowwing]

Looks like he's just horsing around with a captured weapon. The original owner prolly did not give it up willingy! :D

[SkilletsUSMC]

I think they're smart enough not to expose their full face. Unless you know them personally, there's no way you can tell who they are. If you know them personally, I can't imagine you would rat them out just for posing in a couple of pictures.;)



I'm not a Marine, but I know enough that I'm 99.99% sure the Corps doesn't officially issue nor approve SVD, let alone train Marines to use them. I just need to hear from a Marine that it is indeed the case. Of course, people find all sorts of weapons and play with them, but it's not strictly official.

Looks like your picture awnsered your own question then.

[daggertiger]

After thoughts;

After posting the above reply I looked closer at the two photos. And noticed that for one there was no spotting scopes or binoculars. No flak jackets or helmets being warn or in sight. I see no insignia or rank that would not only indicate that these are in fact US Marines or even US Troops for that matter.

A trained US Marine sniper would not make themselves such an easy target as to be standing on a roof in the manor that these individuals are in these photos. I see many other details that lead me to believe that these are not “Snipers” but as I mentioned in the above post, I am not aware how “Designated Marksman” gear up or operate.

I would not be quick to confront the person on this matter because there is a lot of unknowns. His, yours and my ideas of the differences between snipers and unit designated marksman (UDM) will differ. I personally have serious doubts that those in the photographs are UDM’s or snipers but like I said I would NOT be likely to confront anyone over the validity of the photos or the fact that US Marines are, or are not using dragonovs modified or otherwise.

The fact is that even most Marines can not tell you what the preferred distance to a target is for a trained sniper. Over the years I have heard many fakers tell how they were snipers and like most fakers I can figure out if they are faking in just a few minutes of talking to them. The devil is in the details.

If I was just handed those two photos and was asked what my thought were about them I would probably indicate that it looked like some servicemen were on a rooftop probably in or around Iraq or Afghanistan and they were likely being orientated to the area and enemy weapons. I would not think that they were snipers but I would have to consider the possibility that they were UDM’s not actually working but possible training.

Simper Fi

The guy in the first picture carries an M16A4 fitted with an ACOG scope on his back, colloquially known as a "West Coast SAM-R". There is a good chance that he is indeed a UDM.

There's a lot of possibilities; they could simply be posing for picture, they could be training with it, or they could actually be using it for whatever reason. What I'm trying to find out is whether the use of SVD is official.

[daggertiger]

Looks like your picture awnsered your own question then.

You're right! If they weren't horsing around, they wouldn't have been so careful!

Thanks!

[yellowwing]

Finding out the capabilities and strengths and weakness if the enemies preferred weapon is invaluable.

If you lads are out hunting these Muj SOBs, intimately knowing what they fight with is priceless to save Marines Lives.

[Sgt Leprechaun]

I think YW is spot on, here.

Also, if you look thru the 'net, you'll be bound to find photos of Marines totin AK's, as well.

[yellowwing]

The Dragunov is not to be taken lightly. In the hands of a trained sniper it will hit hard. Where does he shoot from? How far? Where does he lay up? Find that out and you can kill him before he hurts our Marines.

[daggertiger]

The Dragunov is not to be taken lightly. In the hands of a trained sniper it will hit hard. Where does he shoot from? How far? Where does he lay up? Find that out and you can kill him before he hurts our Marines.

You are absolutely right. I'm not surprised if those guys in them pictures were simply trying to figure out how far the enemy can see with a PSO-1 scope on the SVD.

[Zulu 36]

The Dragunov does not shoot the same round as an AK-47. It uses a 7.62mm x 54R (for rimmed). It is quite comparable to our 7.62mm x 51 (NATO), and we know what that round can do out of an American rifle.

I'd bet those guys were just messing around, checking out the optics, etc.

My old Air Guard unit had a Dragunov, an RPK, 10 AK-47s, 2 RPG-7 launchers, a 51 cal heavy MG, and an old Russian medium MG that used the 54R, plus 5 or 6 Moisan-Nagant bolt action rifles (also 54R). We shot them all for Fam, and some of us got to use the RPK and AKs more often when playing OpFor.

[Alphaonethree]

Looks to me like its brand new and only dropped once.

[Echo_Four_Bravo]

It uses a 7.62mm x 54R (for rimmed).

Learn something new every day. I really thought the "R" was for Russian.

Anyway, why would an M-16 with ACOG make you think he is the DMR? Are all the kids at SOI training to be DMR types?

[thewookie]

I don't thinks it's too odd that these guys got their hands on these. Especially if they are in Iraq. You'd be surprised what some Marine Corps units have for weapons in the armory.

And just my 2 cents of observation -- The guy in the top picture is not looking directly through or into the scope, at least it appears that his eye is slightly lower then the center point of the scope, it actually looks like he's low to the right. If he's just fooling around then it really don't matter, if he's actually engaging someone then he's probably dealing with some scope issue like tunnelling.

The guy on the bottom looks like he's unfamiliar with the weapon system by the way he's holding the pistol grip. Or not holding it.

[daggertiger]

Learn something new every day. I really thought the "R" was for Russian.

Anyway, why would an M-16 with ACOG make you think he is the DMR? Are all the kids at SOI training to be DMR types?

I'm just guessing because I believe the Corps doesn't issue ACOGs to everybody, only to DMRs.

[Echo_Four_Bravo]

Well, I guess you need to tell that to the SOI instructors, because they sure seem to be using them in SOI. Look at proshooter's SOI pics thread and read some of the newer SOI posts.

[daggertiger]

Well, I guess you need to tell that to the SOI instructors, because they sure seem to be using them in SOI. Look at proshooter's SOI pics thread and read some of the newer SOI posts.

So, they are issuing ACOGs to everybody these days, and it's the newer model with the orange fiber optics. The guys with the Dragunov have the same ACOG model, so the picture must be pretty recent. Ah, I'm learning more and more about them.:)

[Echo_Four_Bravo]

It wouldn't have to be too recent. I'm sure that they were in the fleet well before they showed up at SOI. I don't keep up on the optics that are available, so I don't know when they were introduced to the fleet though.

[daggertiger]

It wouldn't have to be too recent. I'm sure that they were in the fleet well before they showed up at SOI. I don't keep up on the optics that are available, so I don't know when they were introduced to the fleet though.

I googled it, and apparently the new scope was introduced around mid 2005. So, the picture can't be older than 2005.

http://www.quantico.usmc.mil/Sentry/StoryView.aspx?SID=63

[Koble_USMC]

Only speaking for West Coast, Marine Logistics Group Marines, all outside the wire Marines are being issued and trained on the ACOG systems. This started before my last deployment (Aug 06) and the MLG has purchased more systems to take out with us on our next tour at the beginning of '08. Our Marksmanship Training Units have created new curriculums to train Marines how to effectivley shoot with the ACOG. And this is from a support perspective. I am sure the Division Marines recieved this gear long before we did.

Semper Fidelis,

Lt

[Echo_Four_Bravo]

Thank you for the information sir.