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sdk87to91
08-08-07, 10:01 AM
What do you think? Sloppy or reasonable?


>Legislation Allows Veterans to Salute the Flag
>
>WASHINGTON, D.C. - U.S. Senator Jim Inhofe (R-Okla.) today praised
>the passage by unanimous consent of his bill (S.1877) clarifying U.S. law
>to allow veterans and servicemen not in uniform to salute the flag.
>
>Current law (US Code Title 4, Chapter 1) states that veterans and
>servicemen
>not
>in uniform should place their hand over their heart without clarifying
>whether they can or should salute the flag.
>
>"The salute is a form of honor and respect, representing pride in
>one's military service," Senator Inhofe said. "Veterans and service
>members
>continue representing the military services even when not in uniform.
>
>"Unfortunately, current U.S. law leaves confusion as to whether
>veterans and service members out of uniform can or should salute the flag.
>My legislation will clarify this regulation, allowing veterans and
>servicemen alike to salute the flag, whether they are in uniform or not.
>
>"I look forward to seeing those who have served saluting proudly
>at baseball games, parades, and formal events. I believe this is an
>appropriate way to honor and recognize the 25 million veterans in the
>United States who have served in the military and remain as role models to
>other citizens. Those who are currently serving or have served in the
>military have earned this right, and their recognition will be an
>inspiration to others."
>

jerryk
08-08-07, 11:41 AM
what i would like to know is,i was taught all americans are to salute the flag with their right hand over the left side ,do this mean a vet can now give a hand salute to the fore head as in the service either way i have broke the law my salute been a hand salute to the forehead and will till the day i die or now can we salute with only over our heart

Kegler300
08-08-07, 11:57 AM
No thanks. I'll place my hand over my heart.

outlaw3179
08-08-07, 12:09 PM
Marines salute only in uniform.

yanacek
08-08-07, 12:28 PM
I would like to make everyone aware of a few things regarding this Bill concerning saluting the flag in civilian clothing.

First of all, the referenced legislation is not yet Law. The Bill has passed the Senate but has not been voted on by the House and as such, has not been signed by the President. Here is a link to get the Bill's current status:
http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd?bill=s110-1877

Although this Bill appears to be a sincere gesture on the part of the Senator, I am strongly opposed to it. I have addressed this same issue in a number of Marine Corps forums and initially received some rather nasty responses. However, my last post apparently got many folks thinking, and I would like to share my PERSONAL thoughts with everyone concerning this issue. You may not agree with my thoughts, but please consider them.

When not wearing my Marine Corps uniform or my uniform of the Marine Corps League, I will continue to remove my hat and from the position of attention, and place my hand over my heart. Although some may feel that rendering honors in this manner somehow degrades anyone who has earned the title Marine, I maintain that doing this is being a Marine more than rendering a hand salute as proposed by the Senator. Here is my rationale:

1. Marines as taught in boot camp/OCS that when they are not in uniform and/or not covered a hand salute is not rendered to officers or to the Colors. Of course, the Army and Air Force routinely salute when not covered, but I am not a soldier or airman. I am not influenced by popular opinions in this matter. I am comfortable with the Naval tradition as I was taught and see no need to change that time-honored tradition. As you probably already have seen, placing the hand over the heart is not even what most civilians do anyway--most don't even know enough to stand.

2. The military salute originated in the ancient world. An ancient warrior would raise his open hand out of respect to his superiors as an assurance of obedience and a physical way to demonstrate he would not strike out against lawful authority with a weapon. That is why Naval tradition only permits us to salute when "under arms" or covered.

3. The current language of the law in no way prohibits anyone from rendering a hand salute when not in uniform (it says "those not in uniform SHOULD place their hand over their heart and those in uniform SHOULD render a hand salute"). In fact, the law as written would not prohibit a civilian from rendering a hand salute. I just do not find this legislation to be worthy of the time of our Congressmen and Senators. It seems to me to be a piece of legislation designed to placate our veterans rather than addressing REAL veterans issues.

4. The Senator also claims that he "...looks forward to seeing those who have served saluting proudly at baseball games, parades, and formal events." I trust that the Senator was somehow misquoted. During the playing of our National Anthem (or during the Pledge of Allegiance or when Colors pass in review), one's focus should always be on the National Color, not on others in the crowd. To those veterans who support this Bill as a means of being recognized in this manner, I maintain that this is a totally self-serving act which is contrary to a basic principle of being a Marine. Rendering appropriate honors are for the purpose of showing respect to the National Color, not to draw attention to oneself.

Fellow Marines, salute out of uniform or uncovered if you must. I will not berate anyone who does. As for me, I will continue to render honors in the time-honored Naval traditions as prescribed by the Marine Corps. But in my book, there are only two ways to do things: The Marine way and the wrong way.

Semper Fi,
yanacek

jerryk
08-08-07, 01:10 PM
well dont ya,ll think ya,ll have as vet of the u.s.marine corps has earned the right to salute the flag with a hand salute outher then anyone else
or same as a civalan that has never served

gwladgarwr
08-08-07, 01:18 PM
I'm in total agreement with the MSgt: not in uniform, no hand salute.

The Flag Code does not have any provision for punitive action against those who violate the flag code, and 'transgressors' against the Flag Code cannot be punished for violations. The Flag Code is not enforceable (at least not in the civilian world.)

If I want to salute the flag while wearing a beanie, that's my deal. I don't need another self-serving law proposed by a self-serving and attention-getting senator to legislate my respect for my flag, much less enacting more laws dictating my behavior.

Of course, my proper Marine Corps bearing dictates that I follow the old Naval tradition of not saluting the colors when not under arms.

Just keep this in mind when you do render the proper respect and when folks sneer at you for doing so:

"When you see the Stars and Stripes displayed, son, stand up and take off your hat. Somebody may titter. It is in the blood of some to ridicule all expression of noble sentiment. You may blaspheme in the street and stagger drunken in public places, and the bystanders will not pay much attention to you; but if you should get down on your knees and pray to Almighty God, or if you should stand bareheaded while a company of old soldiers marches by with flags to the breeze, some people will think you are showing off.

But don't you mind! When Old Glory comes along, salute, and let them think what they please! When you hear the band play "The Star-Spangled Banner" while you are in a restaurant or hotel dining room, get up even if you rise alone; stand there and don't be ashamed of it, either!

For of all the signs and symbols since the world began there is none other so full of meaning as the flag of this country. That piece of red, white and blue means five thousand years of struggle upward. It is the full-grown flower of ages of fighting for liberty. It is the century plant of human hope in bloom.

Your flag stands for humanity, for an equal opportunity to all the sons of men. Of course we haven't arrived yet at that goal; there are many injustices yet among us, many senseless and cruel customs of the past still clinging to us, but the only hope of righting the wrongs of men lies in the feeling produced in our bosoms by the sight of that flag.

Other flags mean a glorious past, this flag a glorious future. It is not so much the flag of our fathers as it is the flag of our children, and of all children's children yet unborn. It is the flag of tomorrow. It is the signal of the "Good Time Coming." It is not the flag of your king—it is the flag of yourself and of all your neighbors.

Don't be ashamed when your throat chokes and the tears come, as you see it flying from the masts of our ships on all the seas or floating from every Flagstaff of the Republic. You will never have a worthier emotion. Reverence it as you would reverence the signature of the Deity.

Listen, son! The band is playing the national anthem—"The Star-Spangled Banner!" They have let loose Old Glory yonder. Stand up—and others will stand with you.

This tribute to the flag is offered to the country in appeal to all men and women of all races, colors and tongues, that they may come to understand that our flag is the symbol of liberty and learn to love it."

ALVIN M. OWSLEY,
Past National Commander, The American Legion

For the record, I adamantly oppose a Flag Desecration amendment. I don't need my 1st Amendment slowly chipped away to get me to respect MY flag.

OK, I'll get off my soapbox now. :evilgrin:

Sgt gw:iwo:

semperfi170
08-08-07, 05:18 PM
I totally agree with the viewpoints expressed by gwladgarwr and yanacek!:thumbup:

I was taught the proper way to render honors to our flag from the time I was in grade school in the 1950s, then in the Boy Scouts, then in our beloved Corps. The idea of another law just for this is ridiculous! I will continue to renders honors the way I was taught. I haven't yet seen anybody arrested for using the hand salute to render honors. If an individual who feels inclined to use the hand salute, let them. As for flag desecration I strongly resent those who do it, but it is their right if they want to portray their ignorance!! Personally, if somebody physically stops them, too bad for the individual(s) performing the desecration.

The next illogical step would be to arrest those who don't render honors at a parade orturn their back on the flag as it comes by; or don't stand during the playing of the National Anthem.

semperfiman
08-08-07, 08:32 PM
i am all for vets saluting our colors. it lets others know that we served our great nation with pride

sparkie
08-08-07, 08:47 PM
You salute In uniform,,, You give honor as a civilian,,,, Nuf said. Why change? Sept to appease some new age liberal? Yea ,gotta make all things new,,, cause Gotta serve the all, somehow. Some can't adapt, cause I gotta fall on my knees to them. Get over, I don't have to bend cause your imaginary heart bleeds.

Robert Browell
08-08-07, 09:19 PM
I have rendered honors both ways,Marines don't salute indoors either,unless they're under arms,which can be an empty web belt.Having used both methods,I won't be a hypocrite.As long as you are silent,and respectful(yup that means stand at attention),you won't get any grief from me!:usmc:

greensideout
08-08-07, 09:46 PM
Is something broken? Does it need to be fixed? I didn't think so. Senator Inhofe seems to think that it is more important to recognize the Vet then to honor the flag in the traditional time proven way. I disagree. As for me, out of uniform I will put my hand over my heart. God bless America!

sdk87to91
08-09-07, 06:03 PM
I thought Marines were to stand at the Position of Attention , which means no hand over the heart, and which would mean remaining covered even in civies. Am I remembering wrongly?

yanacek
08-09-07, 06:29 PM
Here is what the law says, verbatim:

SEC. 5. During the ceremony of hoisting or lowering the flag or when the flag is passing in a parade or in review, all persons present except those in uniform should face the flag and stand at attention with the right hand over the heart. Those present in uniform should render the military salute. When not in uniform, men should remove their headdress with their right hand and hold it at the left shoulder, the hand being over the heart. Aliens should stand at attention. The salute to the flag in a moving column should be rendered at the moment the flag passes.

SEC. 6. During rendition of the national anthem when the flag is displayed, all present except those in uniform should stand at attention facing the flag with the right hand over the heart. Men not in uniform should remove their headdress with their right hand and hold it at the left shoulder, the hand being over the heart. Persons in uniform should render the military salute at the first note of the anthem and retain this position until the last note. When the flag is not displayed, those present should face toward the music and act in the same manner they would if the flag were displayed there.

SEC. 7. The Pledge of Allegiance to the Flag, "I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands, one Nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all", should be rendered by standing at attention facing the flag with the right hand over the heart. When not in uniform men should remove their headdress with their right hand and hold it at the left shoulder, the hand being over the heart. Persons in uniform should remain silent, face the flag and render the military salute.

To answer your question, when in civvies, you should stand at attention and remove your hat and place your hand over your heart as indicated above.

Additional details regarding Title 4, USC is provided at: http://www.obxmarines.com/information/flag_code.html

sparkie
08-09-07, 06:34 PM
Good post, Sir,,, And thank you.

LCPLE3
08-09-07, 07:42 PM
Marines in our Marine Corps League meetings saluting the flag indoors must have a cover on.

sparkie
08-09-07, 07:47 PM
Saluting in doors means you are assumed to be under arms. Only reason for wearing a cover indoors.

Sgt Leprechaun
08-11-07, 08:40 AM
Good post. I agree. I don't need a "law" or the "intent of congress" to tell me what I both already know, and already DO, by instinct and training.

Nitpickie legislation designed to pander to someone for sure.

And, what, I'm gonna tell the local constabulary to "Arrest that man!" if he's not displaying proper respect?

Puuhhlease.

sdk87to91
08-13-07, 05:37 PM
[QUOTE=yanacek]To answer your question, when in civvies, you should stand at attention and remove your hat and place your hand over your heart as indicated above.

I was wrong all these years. thanks

Quinbo
06-01-08, 03:23 PM
I was hoofing it across Patch barracks the other day when colors started. Rain was pouring down. As taught 23 years ago I stopped faced the flag and stood at attention. I didn't know about the cover and the heart thing either so I just stood at attention and faced the flag. When colors was over I resumed my rapid walk when a lieutenant colonel Army broke into a trot and caught up to me. Ohh **** what have I done now? He pulled up beside me and called me sir. Umm sir I'm not a sir. What did I do? You stopped and rendered honors to our flag when many might not have. I want to thank you. I never even caught his name but that was cool.

SSgt Wink
06-01-08, 06:58 PM
well dont ya,ll think ya,ll have as vet of the u.s.marine corps has earned the right to salute the flag with a hand salute outher then anyone else
or same as a civalan that has never served

This is the land of the free...this is a stupid law and a waste of tax payers money. Who cares how you salute the flag? As long as you render a proper salute and show respect what's the big deal?

As a veteran of two wars I'll continue to place my right hand over my heart. If you choose to render a hand salute who am I to say your wrong? Aren't we all free?

yanacek
12-20-08, 08:45 PM
This is an old post, however, some new information has come to light.

The proposed amendment to permit veterans to salute the National Color when out of uniform and/or uncovered has passed and is now law. With that said, the Commandant of the Marine Corps has (wisely, in my opinion) issued the following guidance to all Marines:

UNCLASSIFIED//
ALMAR 052/08
MSGID/GENADMIN/CMC WASHINGTON DC CMC//
SUBJ/CUSTOMS AND TRADITIONS//
REF/A/DESC:DOC/CMC WASHINGTON DC/05MAY2003//
AMPN/REF A IS MCO P5060.20, MARINE CORPS DRILL AND CEREMONIES MANUAL.
//
GENTEXT/REMARKS/1. THIS ALMAR REINFORCES THE IMPORTANCE OF OUR CUSTOMS AND TRADITIONS AND AMPLIFIES THE PROVISIONS OF THE REFERENCE FOR RENDERING SALUTES AND HONORS TO THE NATIONAL FLAG; THE PROPER CONDUCT OF THE MARINE CORPS BIRTHDAY CAKE CUTTING CEREMONY; AND THE PLAYING OF THE MARINES' HYMN.

2. CUSTOMS AND TRADITIONS PROVIDE A LINK TO THE PAST; THEY BOND MARINES WHO HAVE GONE BEFORE WITH MARINES WHO WILL CARRY THE TORCH THROUGH THE FUTURE. ANY LOSS OF TRADITION OR IMPROPER OBSERVATION OF CUSTOM BLURS OUR IDENTITY AND WEAKENS US AS AN INSTITUTION. THROUGH THE FAITHFUL ADHERENCE BY COMMANDERS AND EACH INDIVIDUAL MARINE, WE PRESERVE OUR IDENTITY AND REPUTATION AS A UNIQUE AND ELITE FIGHTING ORGANIZATION.

3. SALUTING. A RECENT CHANGE TO THE LAW HAS AUTHORIZED ACTIVE DUTY AND RETIRED SERVICEMEMBERS TO SALUTE THE NATIONAL COLORS, WHETHER COVERED OR UNCOVERED, INDOORS OR OUT. BY CUSTOM AND TRADITION, MARINES DO NOT RENDER THE HAND SALUTE WHEN OUT OF UNIFORM OR WHEN UNCOVERED. LET THERE BE NO CONFUSION; THAT HAS NOT CHANGED. DURING THE PLAYING OF THE NATIONAL ANTHEM, OR THE RAISING, LOWERING, OR PASSING OF THE NATIONAL FLAG, MARINES WILL CONTINUE TO FOLLOW NAVAL TRADITIONS AND THE POLICY / PROCEDURES CONTAINED IN REFERENCE (A). SPECIFICALLY, MARINES NOT IN UNIFORM WILL FACE THE FLAG, STAND AT ATTENTION, AND PLACE THE RIGHT HAND OVER THE HEART. IF COVERED, MARINES NOT IN UNIFORM WILL REMOVE THEIR HEADGEAR WITH THE RIGHT HAND AND PLACE THEIR RIGHT HAND OVER THEIR HEART. WHEN THE FLAG IS NOT PRESENT, MARINES WILL ACT IN THE SAME MANNER WHILE FACING IN THE DIRECTION OF THE MUSIC. IN CASES SUCH AS INDOOR CEREMONIES, WHEN MARINES ARE IN UNIFORM AND UNCOVERED, THEY WILL FACE THE FLAG, OR THE DIRECTION OF THE MUSIC WHEN THE FLAG IS NOT PRESENT, AND STAND AT ATTENTION.

4. THE MARINE CORPS BIRTHDAY CAKE CUTTING CEREMONY. THE MARINE CORPS BIRTHDAY CAKE CUTTING CEREMONY IS ONE OF OUR TIME-HONORED TRADITIONS IN GARRISON, IN THE FIELD, AND IN COMBAT. ONE OF THE MOST IMPORTANT ELEMENTS OF THE CEREMONY IS THE TRADITIONAL RECOGNITION OF THE OLDEST AND YOUNGEST MARINES PRESENT. TO CLARIFY THE LANGUAGE IN REFERENCE (A), THE COMMANDER CUTS THE CAKE AND HANDS THE FIRST PIECE TO THE GUEST OF HONOR. THEN THE COMMANDER HANDS THE SECOND PIECE OF CAKE TO THE OLDEST MARINE PRESENT AS A SIGN OF HONOR AND RESPECT TO EXPERIENCE AND SENIORITY. AFTER TAKING A BITE, THE OLDEST MARINE PASSES THE SECOND PIECE OF CAKE, AND A CLEAN FORK, DIRECTLY TO THE YOUNGEST MARINE PRESENT; THIS ACTION SYMBOLIZES THE PASSING OF WISDOM, KNOWLEDGE, AND EXPERIENCE, AS WELL AS TRUST AND CONFIDENCE IN THOSE WHO WILL CONTINUE TO CARRY ON OUR MARINE CORPS TRADITIONS.

5. PLAYING OF THE MARINES' HYMN. THE MARINES' HYMN IS THE OFFICIAL HYMN OF THE MARINE CORPS. IT IS THE SONG OF PRAISE TO OUR INSTITUTION AND THE LYRICS ARE A DIRECT TRIBUTE TO OUR WARFIGHTING CULTURE. BY CUSTOM AND TRADITION, THE MARINES' HYMN IS THE LAST SONG PLAYED AT CEREMONIES AND GATHERINGS OF MARINES. ALTHOUGH THE REFERENCE ALLOWS FOR THE PLAYING OF SPECIAL MUSIC REQUESTS BEFORE THE MARINES' HYMN, SUCH AS "ANCHOR'S AWEIGH," THIS IS BY EXCEPTION AND AT THE DISCRETION OF THE LOCAL COMMANDER.

6. ONE OF OUR HALLMARKS AS MARINES IS THAT WE ARE AS GOOD ON PARADE AS WE ARE IN THE ATTACK. OUR SHARP APPEARANCE - IN AND OUT OF UNIFORM - AND OUR SUCCESS IN BATTLE ARE TWO IMPORTANT PARTS OF OUR IDENTITY. WE TAKE PRIDE IN OUR TRADITIONS, AND THEIR UNIFORM APPLICATION, WHEREVER MARINES ARE ASSIGNED.

7. SEMPER FIDELIS, JAMES T. CONWAY, GENERAL, U.S. MARINE CORPS,
COMMANDANT OF THE MARINE CORPS.//

Eric Hood
12-21-08, 02:11 PM
If I am not in uniform, it would'nt be right.

sdk87to91
12-23-08, 01:24 PM
Every morning our front desk personel hoist the flag out in front of our little USDA Forest Service office. I often witness this from the parking lot and about half the time I am in Forest Service Uniform, which makes me feel strange, I would never salute in USDA FS uniform but I feel like I should be standing at attention. Although I wear my current uniform with pride I guess I should treat it like civvies. I will face the flag, uncover, and place my hand over my heart.
Thanks for the followup on this information. It is great to have the CMC direction to feel like I will be consistient with those other Marines out there.

arjones0351
12-23-08, 01:55 PM
I only feel comfortable saluting while in uniform. Everytime I see someone (Veteran or not) giving a salute while not in a uniform, it appears almost as a joke. The salute is to be done in uniform and that should be that.