Law Program Questions

[DeuceOfHearts]

Hello,

On Sunday while working as range director on staff at a Boy Scout camp, I started talking to a regional recruitment XO and he got me interested in joining the marines.

I always had the thought in the back of my mind, but my parents threatened to disown me if I went through with my plans to seek an appointment to one of the academies... and then I got a mostly full-ride to a state school, so I went the path that seemed best at the time.

I'm majoring in political science and economics, and have been taking Arabic as well. I'm on 3-day break from camp staff over the fourth, so today I tracked down the area's OSO and drove all the way across town to meet him. We talked for about an hour and a half, and I started to shy away from asking $$$ questions, because I didn't want him to think that's what I want to become a Marine for.

But I also need to know some information so that I can plan financially.
I would be headed to PLC in Summer '09, and from there obtain a Law Degree, attend TBS after the Law Degree, and end up as a JAG.

From my understanding, after graduating PLC in 09, I would be commissioned as a 2ndLt (if I make it). I would then enter Reserve status while I am in Law School. During the summers I would be on active duty. After Law school, I would attend TBS as a 1stLt by that point.

So, here's what I would like to know:

What would be, or how can I figure, my approximate Reserve Pay?
My Active Pay would just be the normal Active Pay for the summer months, correct?
What financial aid is available for tuition/housing while attending Law School? Not just Marine Corps specific, but are there any resources available through the GI bill? I know that Army/AF/Navy says they'll pay all of it, but if I'm going, I'm going Marine.

Thanks for any answers.

[Echo_Four_Bravo]

You need to fill out your profile before we can answer any of your questions. Rules of the site.

[dscusmc]

I recently graduated from law school. I went to OCS in the summer of 2005 after my first year. I just went through most of this, so feel free to ask any questions. I'll answer what I can and refer you to your OSO for the rest.

1) Reserve pay: You won't get any reserve pay while you are in law school unless you are drilling with a Reseve unit. When your OSO says that you are in the Reserves, he means you are in the Inactive Ready Reserve (IRR). You don't get paid. It does not sound like you will be drilling with a Reserve unit and even if you were it would not be worth the time or money for a law student.

2) Active pay: You will receive E5 pay while you are at OCS during the summer months. If you are married, then you may receive a housing allowance also. Your second year of law school you may be able to do "summer fun" on active duty. Summer fun is like an internship on active duty. You will be commissioned and will receive 2NDLT pay. I've heard good things about summer fun. I did not do summer fun and instead worked at the firm I currently work for.

3) The financial aid / reimbursment available to law students is the Marine Corps Tuition Assistance Program (MCTAP). MCTAP amounts to $5,200 a year. Its nice, but if you go to a private school its not even a drop in the bucket. The initial contract is for 42 months (3.5 years). If you take any MCTAP, your contract is extended to 60 months (5 years). For a lawyer, $5,200 or even $10,400 for one or two years isn't much for an extra 1.5 years downstream. That's one factor to consider if you are unsure whether you will spend 20 years on active duty. Unless you were prior enlisted, I don't think the GI Bill is available. I don't know. There may be other programs available that you should talk to your OSO about.

Don't shy away from asking money questions - it's not greedy, it's responsible. Once you see your student loan bills from law school you'll understand.

4) There is a Law School Debt Subsidy available to lawyers following their first 3 1/2 year commitment. If they agree to another committment, the Marine Corps will give them 30K towards their loans.

Hope that helps, LT C.

[DeuceOfHearts]

Profile Fixed. Sorry about that.

1) The OSO I spoke with said that I would drill with a Reserve Unit, and between that and active duty service in summer I would be a 1stLt by the time I graduated Law School and hit TBS.

2) Got it on this one, thanks.

3) Thanks on this count too.

Another question:

How is OCS different from Boot Camp? I've seen threads on what to expect when entering the enlisted ranks. What should a person expect from OCS?

[dscusmc]

1) I'll defer to your OSO on the drilling with the Reserve unit issue. I only know of one other law student that drilled with a Reserve unit. He was prior enlisted and was drilling with his old unit. After four years of active duty, I spent two years enlisted in the Reserves before law school. Law school is demanding enough without spending any time at a drill center. As far as I'm aware, drilling with a unit won't help you get promoted faster. You are receiving constructive credit for your time in law school. If you attend OCS after your first year - or even before - then you should have the constructive credit for 1LT. Again, your OSO is the expert, so we could be talking about different issues.

2) OCS Expectations.

A) If you are good enough to get selected, then you are good enough to graduate from OCS. The first three weeks of OCS are very similar to boot camp. In fact, the drill instructors treat the candidates just like the recruits at boot camp.

After the three week point, candidates get weekend liberty starting on Saturday afternoon. Don't get too excited about libo. We had at least four hours of PT on Saturday morning followed by about 30 minutes to prepare for a hot sweaty inspection. Then we had to field day before liberty and stand a civilian attire inspection. My platoon typically did not get secured for liberty until 1500-1600. We had to return from liberty around 1800 on Sunday if I remember correctly. Usually, we spent Sunday evening getting ready for a test or a hump out to the field on Monday.

Liberty is designed to be just long enough to either get in trouble or think about quiting. Most candidates I saw mentally quit. There were several guys that got hurt, but there's not a whole lot you can do about that at OCS other than try not to get hurt.

B) The PT is longer and more difficult than boot camp. But, if you got selected in the first place than your PFT score should be high enough to graduate.

C) OCS is just as stressful as boot camp, but in a different way. Boot camp is stressful because someone is always screaming at you. At boot camp, I was never once worried about quitting, getting sent home, or failing any of the training. At OCS, there is the constant threat that you could get sent home for any reason. You could get hurt, you could fail a test, or your Platoon Commander could simply not think you're good enough to be an officer. The tests and academics are not difficult at OCS. In fact, they are are only marginally more difficult than boot camp. Nevertheless, they intentionally design the academics around an exhausting physical schedule to leave you little or no time to prepare other than at night.

If you want to be a Marine officer bad enough, then you can make it through OCS. Most of the tips on this thread are equally as applicable to OCS - for the most part. OCS requires a more practical form of leadership than boot camp. You can't scream at your fellow candidates like you would at boot camp - that's not necessarily leadership.

Right now is an exciting time to be a Marine lawyer. I work for a firm that specializes in military criminal defense. There's lots of work right now and some interesting criminal law issues. Your experience as a Marine will be a valuable asset to any firm. - LT C.

[Echo_Four_Bravo]

That was the best post about OCS I've seen on these forums. Thanks DSC.

[DeuceOfHearts]

Got more... always got more... you're great at answering questions, DSC.

1) Who runs OCS? i.e. regular DIs, officers assigned to the task, or what?

2) The 3-mile run for PFT -- flat terrain or variable terrain?

[dscusmc]

1) The OCS platoon is structured differently than a platoon at boot camp. If I recall correctly (its been almost 10 years), a boot camp platoon has four drill instructors led by a senior drill instructor. A recruit at boot camp rarely, if ever, sees an officer.

An OCS platoon has a Platoon Commander that is with the platoon every day. The Platoon Commander is usually a captain or a very senior first lieutenant. The Platoon Commander PTs with the platoon and is present for all of the training. He is constantly evaluating the candidates and if the candidate is borderline, his evaluation could save the candidate from being sent home.

You could say that the Platoon Commander runs the platoon. The platoon also has a Platoon Sergeant - usually a gunnery sergeant or a senior staff sergeant. The Platoon Sergeant is like the senior drill instructor at bootcamp. In practice, its probably the Platoon Sergeant that runs the platoon. Finally, each platoon has at least two Sergeant Instructors that are usually staff sergeants. The SIs are just like drill instructors at boot camp.

The platoon also falls underneath leadership at the company level - the company commander, executive officer, first sergeant, and gunnery sergeant. Unlike boot camp, candidates constantly see the company level leadership.

At OCS, candidates ostensibly run the platoon and company. In reality, the company is like a train and the candidates only have to keep the train from jumping the track. The candidates rotate every few days out of every billet from the fire team leader all the way to the company commander. The Candidate Company commander might be responsible for coordinating company level training issues. The real Company Commander passes along the training schedule to the candidate company commander. The candidate company commander has a little staff meeting and passes the information along to his candidate platoon commanders. The candidate platoon commanders coordinate with their candidate platoon sergeant and so forth. The candidates are constantly evaluated on their performance. In reality, the candidate's only responsibilities are getting his unit to certain locations on time, maintining full accountability for candidates and weapons, and supervising the performance of the candidates. Behind the scenes the real company leadership is ensuring that even if the candidates screw up the training schedule will go on.

The candidate platoon sergeant usually marches the platoon everywhere - which can get ugly because most candidates have no drill experience. The squad leaders supervise field days much like at boot camp.

The sergeant instructors treat the candidates like recruits for the first several weeks, but by the third week they are starting to back off and let the candidates run the platoon. On the one hand, not having drill instructors screaming all of the time is nice. On the other hand, letting candidates run a platoon can result in lots of leadership mistakes that aren't much fun, but are valuable learning and evaluation tools.

2) The PFT course on Brown Field is entirely flat. The rumor is that its a 3.2 mile course. I don't know if that's true. I was the old man in my platoon and on my initial PFT I ran the same time that I had run for my OSO - 22 minutes. A 22 minute run time at OCS is in the back of the pack. You should shave two minutes off your run time at OCS. On my final PFT I was sick and I ran it in rougly 20 minutes flat. I came down with something two days earlier. I can't remember ever feeling as sick as I did that weekend. I tried to recover on the weekend, but I was still sick on Monday when we ran the final PFT. We were close to graduating and I didn't want to go to sick call. I sucked it up - cranked out 20 pullups, 100 situps, and a nice 20 minute flat run. I had run as fast as a 19:45 on an unofficial timed run on the hillier trails behind Brown Field.

Most of the running at OCS is on the trails which are well worn. There are one or two monster hills, but mostly flat with smaller hills. LT C