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thedrifter
07-02-07, 06:58 AM
Pack in your pistols
Many staff NCOs and officers will now carry the M4 carbine rifle
By Kimberly Johnson - kjohnson@militarytimes.com
Posted : July 09, 2007

In the field, junior Marines can often tell who the “decision makers” are — not by rank insignia but by what’s strapped to their shoulders.

Even in the streets of Iraq, where Marines of all ranks sport helmets, body armor and rifles, the guy with the pistol in his holster is the guy telling rank-and-file leathernecks which door to kick.

Now, the phrase “every Marine a rifleman” just took on a whole new meaning.

The Corps on June 22 announced a major shake-up in weapons assignments, saying that staff sergeants and up, as well as second lieutenants through lieutenant colonels and chief warrant officers, will now be issued the M4 carbine as their “T/O” weapon. It stands for “table of organization,” and it refers to the weapon associated with their rank. Marines in those paygrades were previously issued the M9 pistol, which colonels and up will continue to carry.

Privates through sergeants will still be issued the M16A4. Assignment of automatic rifles will not change.

Sailors E-5 and below who are with Marine units will be issued the M4. The remaining paygrades will still carry the pistol.

Outfitting officers and staff NCOs with greater firepower is a reflection of what’s happening on the ground in Iraq, according to the Corps’ top range officer. In years past, officers and senior enlisted could stay back and direct traffic while junior leathernecks did the shooting and scooting. But in a war lacking a front line, everyone has taken to toting a rifle.

“I believe it’s a matter of service policy that everyone is required to carry a long gun outside the wire,” Chief Warrant Officer 5 Daniel Luke said.

So forget the 9mm. During his tours in Iraq, now-retired Col. Gary Wilson carried an M4, a shotgun and an AK47 rifle, along with an MP5 submachine gun with two 50-round magazines, whenever he went outside the wire.

“All the officers ended up carrying M4s and M16s and shotguns, because the 9mm is useless against an AK47,” said Wilson, a reservist who has written extensively on fourth-generation warfare. The AK47, a Soviet-made assault rifle that’s popular with insurgents in Iraq, fires a standard 7.62mm cartridge that many combat veterans and weapons experts contend packs more “stopping power” than the lighter 5.56mm round used by the M4 and M16.

Wilson wasn’t the only commander in Iraq packing extra heat. Combat commanders are regularly exercising their ability to outfit officers and staff NCOs with rifles, said another Corps official.

“Commanders in Iraq and elsewhere have the flexibility to task organize with available resources to optimize their capabilities,” said Lt. Col. Pat Beckett, combat integration officer for the fires and maneuver integration division at Marine Corps Combat Development Command. “This policy incorporated direct input from the operating forces in order to capture ‘frontline’ requirements.”

It was unclear as of press time whether this policy created a direct rank-to-weapon relationship in Iraq that had not existed before. A review of Marine photographs taken in the war zone showed Marines of every rank carrying different rifles. Some staff sergeants carried M16s, while NCOs carried M4s. Beckett, who would respond only to questions e-mailed to a spokesman, could not be reached with a request for further information.

The weapons distribution policy was set into motion in January 2006 after the Marine Requirements Oversight Council signed off on recommendations made by the Marine Corps Equipment Review Group, Beckett said.

“The priority continues to be units/individuals deployed or preparing to deploy” to Iraq, Beckett said. “The transition will be taking place over time in accordance with acquisition plans” and is based on the number of weapons delivered monthly by the manufacturer, he said. It was unclear as of press time how far along that process was.

While the requirement decision has been in place, there haven’t been enough rifles to go around. Traditionally, because of its smaller size, the M4 has been issued to Marines assigned to tanks, light armored vehicles and assault amphibian vehicles.

“When the decisions were made, we had a limited amount of M4s in the arsenal,” Luke said. “Now that we’re going to 202,000 and increasing our end strength, we’re going to need more M4s.”

A bigger end strength — expected to be achieved by 2011 — also means additional M4s will be needed for the increase in support troops, such as Navy corpsmen, he added.
Smaller, lighter

The Corps has already received 23,000 M4s and has ordered 40,000 more that will be delivered over the course of the next 12 months, said James Battaglini, chief operating officer of M4 manufacturer Colt Defense.

Battaglini, a retired Marine major general, said the shift from pistol to rifle would not likely result in much of a culture change among the ranks. “Still, everyone has their role,” he said. “But it does provide the officer and the staff NCO a personal weapon that will be more effective and practical on today’s battlefield.”

“The [M4’s] collapsible butt stock is particularly useful when you need to make an adjustment to the weapon due to body armor,” Battaglini said. It’s well-suited for the urban battlefield, the jungle and mountainous terrain, such as where you have to enter caves, he added.

Its shorter barrel and telescoping stock — the two main features that make the carbine different from the M16 — make it easier to get the rifle in and out of vehicles, Luke said. Unlike the carbine, the M16A2 and M16A4 do not have a collapsible stock, which makes them a little more difficult to handle in confined spaces, he added. The M16A4, which features an improved rail, is already replacing the A2, and that phase-in will continue as planned, the MarAdmin said.

“[The M4 is] a good weapons system we procured before the war really started,” Luke said. “It’s a good weapon for the type of fight we’re fighting right now.”

The M4s will be distributed to officers and staff NCOs piecemeal, through the armory’s weapons allocation for individual units. “It’s not like if you’re an officer, you go turn in your M9,” Luke said. “It doesn’t happen on a certain date.”

When officers are tapped for weapon reassignment, they will receive their M4 by pre-deployment workup, Luke said. Some units already have weapons before pre-deployment training, while some get their weapons during the training, he said.

“It is fair to say that units that are deploying, when they get into training, they have the weapons they’re required to have,” he said.

“While in this transition period, we must guard against any degradation in the operating forces capability,” the message said. “No organization shall dispose of weapons until their replacement weapons have been fully fielded.”

The weapons distribution policy, however, will not necessarily prevent those officers previously assigned an M9 from doubling up.

“The Marines in the past who were required to carry pistols will carry M4s. They will now have the opportunity to carry both at the commander’s discretion,” Luke said.

That request for double firepower, however, might not always receive the thumbs-up from command. “Sometimes, we have to deny for their own good,” Luke said. A Navy corpsman, for example, might be denied a request to carry both a rifle and a pistol because of the extra weight, which could reduce his endurance over the long run, he said.

One major piece to this weapons change, and one that is still up in the air, is the issue of training staff NCOs and officers on the M4.

“There are training and qualification-related impacts to the implementation of this decision,” which the Corps is studying, Beckett said. The study will be conducted by — among others — MCCDC, Training and Education Command, operating forces and Marine Corps Systems Command, he said.

With the weapon requirement comes the need for more range time, Luke said. “There will be more rifle training of the senior staff NCOs and field-grade officers now that they’re not required to carry a pistol,” he said.

Infantry officers and staff NCOs will be required to train on Tables 3 and 4 — intermediate and advanced combat marksmanship training, respectively — while noninfantry will train on Table 3, he said.

Wilson, the retired colonel, had no complaints about the M4, a lightweight weapon that he thinks everyone should get. “It was good for an officer and, I think, for generals and below and staff NCOs, who ought to have the M4 and the .45,” he said. “But it didn’t have the punching power of a 7.62. That’s why people found the AK47.”

He’s all for the Corps giving up its 9mm pistols, which, he noted with seriousness, “you could use ... as a paperweight.”

Gidget Fuentes contributed to this report.

Ellie

thedrifter
07-02-07, 07:46 AM
Editorial: Rifles make sense
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Posted : July 09, 2007

If for some reason you doubt the truthfulness of the phrase “every Marine a rifleman,” all you need to do is look at photos of Marines in Iraq.

From private to staff sergeant, second lieutenant to lieutenant colonel, everyone is carrying a rifle outside the wire. It’s a nod to the reality on the ground, where the “front lines” can be found far behind the junior enlisted door-kickers, and sometimes even inside the wire. Roadside bombs take out convoys, mortars target chow halls and car bombs create kill boxes wherever U.S. forces gather.

Yet within these photos you’ll also spy a piece of gear that’s looking more and more antiquated: the service pistol.

Gone are the days when senior enlisted and officers stood far from the rank-and-file troops, when the pistol marked the last line of defense for a decision-maker, well after things had gone horribly wrong.

To be certain, battalion commanders and sergeants major aren’t typically leading assaults into insurgent-infested homes. But the growing radius of the battlefield means those Marines need more kick than the 9mm pistol provides, whether it’s during convoy operations or when the forward operating base comes under attack.

On June 22, the Corps announced that the standard-issue weapon for tens of thousands of Marines throughout the Corps — not just in the streets of Iraq — will change. Staff sergeants and up, and officers up to lieutenant colonel, will officially be associated with the M4 carbine. Colonels and up will keep carrying the pistol, while privates through sergeants will stick with the M16.

While the training issues are still being worked out, it’s safe to assume a lot more Marines will spend more time on the range doing advanced rifle quals and much less time shooting pistols.

The change was based on feedback from the war zone and, according to one official, will result in the “gain of individual lethality and unit force protection.”

It’s hard to argue with that.

Ellie

RON 68
07-02-07, 10:10 AM
DUH! what happened to the good old g.i. 1911&1911a1. 45? i know it was replaced by the m-9. back in the 80's however i'm sure some Marine's are able to find some.

in a war zone you use whatever you can find and shoot. RON 68

FistFu68
07-02-07, 11:49 AM
:evilgrin: FIX'ED BAYONET'S IS THE WAY TO ENTER ANY HOSTILE ENVIORMENT,I DON'T GIVE A FUC;WHAT FIREARM YOU CARRY THEY ALL JAM???MAYBEE YOU'R NEXT???A BAYONET CAN SAVE YOU'R BACON,IT DID ME;ON 12/2/68...:evilgrin: :iwo:

hrscowboy
07-02-07, 11:59 AM
Yelp Fist people have second thoughts about jumpin on some one with a big knife, cause they know someones gonna bleed real bad and its gonna hurt like heck...

crate78
07-02-07, 09:58 PM
This morning, with our local sheriff's approval, I took down two stray dogs that were creating havoc in the neighborhood. The first thing I had handy was a 9mm pistol. I should have taken time to get my 1911A .45. Or better yet, a .30-.30, of which I have several.

If the 9mm isn't any more effective on terrorists than it is on stray dogs, even with direct vital organ hits, I can see why the troops in Iraq are underimpressed with it.

crate

SSgt Blue
07-03-07, 11:12 AM
My weapons of choice, The M-4, A Tops Marine Recon fixed blade, and for a back up weapon the good old pump shot gun. It the best combo we have in my armory right now, I would love to see a 45ACP put back in every units hand and just Recon or Force. And lastly, the 9mm is the biggest POS round you can get for combat operations out there. I can’t tell you how many times I have seen guys get hit and look at Marines like it didn’t even hurt. Unless you hit them right through the eye or any other soft spot in the head, they are not going to go down.

SSgt Blue
07-03-07, 11:15 AM
Now this is should be the standard for todays operations, great combo.
http://www.springfield-armory.com/armory.php?version=29

Can you go wrong ?

FistFu68
07-03-07, 01:24 PM
:evilgrin: DURING MY 'ERA,THE 'NAM;THE SHOTGUN I HUMPED WAS OUTFITTED WITH A BAYONET LUGG.AN M-14 BAYONET WOULD FIT IT,WHY BUTT SMASH SOMEONE WITH A COLLAPSABLE STOCK? WHEN YOU CAN BURY A PIECE OF COLD-STELL INTO HIS HEART OR FACE?"SILENT BUT DEADLY":evilgrin: "DEATH BEFORE DISHONOR":iwo:

SSgt Blue
07-03-07, 01:29 PM
no lugg on the 870 Rem. I wish. The new pig sticker is sweet. I love that thing.

FistFu68
07-03-07, 03:10 PM
:evilgrin: IT WOULD BE A GREAT HEAD'S -UP,TO YOU'R ARMORER;JUST TAC.WELD 'EM ALL ON.I LIKE TO PASS ON,PROVEN METHOD'S THAT I LEARNED FROM ON THE JOB TRAINING,OR IN FIELD USE.SEMPER~FIDEILIS~MARINE~:beer: TO A'CCEPT THE CURRENT ISSUE BAYONET'S.:usmc: