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thedrifter
06-26-07, 05:36 AM
The Truth About Guantanamo <br />
Proposals to treat detainees as criminal defendants make a mockery of international humanitarian law. <br />
<br />
BY JAMES TARANTO <br />
Tuesday, June 26, 2007 12:01 a.m. EDT <br />
<br />
Was...

thedrifter
06-26-07, 07:11 AM
June 26, 2007 <br />
Op-Ed Contributor <br />
The Guantánamo I Know <br />
By MORRIS D. DAVIS <br />
<br />
Arlington, Va. <br />
<br />
LINDSEY GRAHAM, a Republican senator from South Carolina, is right: “The image of Guantánamo Bay and...

Sgt Leprechaun
06-26-07, 08:11 AM
Like I said before, those who are so concerned with the 'feeelings' of these people, should offer to take them into their homes. Use the ACLU HQ as a detainment facility.

HOLM
06-26-07, 08:55 AM
All I have to say... If they move them into my neck of the woods (Leavenworth)

They are going to WISH they could be back at GITMO..

jetdawgg
06-27-07, 08:48 AM
The problem with GTMO is that the 'detainees' don't get to have legal council, are held for years without charges and believed to be tortured among other abuses. <br />
<br />
How can the USA espouse 'human...

HOLM
06-27-07, 08:49 AM
How can the USA espouse 'human rights' to other nations and then put into practice a place like GTMO?

To think that this does not make people hate America (create more terrorists) is just pure denial.


Iran does it all the time.. And it don't seem to bother anybody...

jetdawgg
06-27-07, 08:54 AM
Iran does it all the time.. And it don't seem to bother anybody...

HOLM in any game when you play down to the level of your opponent you generally lose. To win, you have to play your game, use your strategy, your skillset, your best offense and defensive pratices.

I don't like the idea of playing down to the level of Iran or any other nation and thinking that I am going to win. And as you see, we are losing.:usmc:

Play your game and win, play someone else's and you increase your chance of losing.

HOLM
06-27-07, 09:00 AM
I did NOT say we should play their game..


I am against beheaded adulterer's and "political" prisoners..

What concerns me is that you seem more interested, and I very rarely see you jump in, propeller puppy, for anything other than a chance to bash the President or your own country..

That ****'s me the fuk off..



And letting some crybaby liberals that are MORE concerned with "terrorists" rights, than doing what needs to be done, Sure as hell ain't the way to win any ****** war.. EVER...

jetdawgg
06-27-07, 09:16 AM
I did NOT say we should play their game..


I am against beheaded adulterer's and "political" prisoners..

What concerns me is that you seem more interested, and I very rarely see you jump in, propeller puppy, for anything other than a chance to bash the President or your own country..

That ****'s me the fuk off..



And letting some crybaby liberals that are MORE concerned with "terrorists" rights, than doing what needs to be done, Sure as hell ain't the way to win any ****** war.. EVER...


HOLM you are such and extremist. You mentioned Iran, knowing that they are a nation that practices human rights violations regularly.

The US involvement of those practices, (measuring one type of practice against the other is meaningless) is what we are discussing.

You should be banned for the name calling. I have a screen name.

Let me school you on some civics. I live in the USA. I can't control what goes on in Iran. I can control what goes on in the USA. When a practice is underway that I am against, I will let the entity know my position.

In this nation, we elect leaders to represent us. When the representation is not desireable, we throw them out. As for your feelings, I have stated before that you seriously need to see someone regarding that.:usmc:

HOLM
06-27-07, 09:23 AM
Yawn....


So Lincoln should have just let all the "copperheads" loose on the streets?

http://www.sonofthesouth.net/slavery-pictures/beating-slaves-750.jpg

jetdawgg
06-27-07, 09:30 AM
HOLM, how you connect subjects is puzzling. Sometimes it appears that you take the most remote routes to attempt to prove a point and this is just another case.

Mr. Lincoln was killed for his thinking. That certainly removed him from office.

jetdawgg
06-27-07, 09:38 AM
WASHINGTON, June 25 (UPI) -- The United States (http://www.upi.com/Security_Terrorism/Briefing/2007/06/25/aclu_us_holds_19000_terror_suspects/8191/#) currently is holding about 19,000 terror suspects, a human rights group said Monday.


"It is estimated that there are currently about 18,000 detainees held in Iraq, over 660 in Afghanistan (http://www.upi.com/Security_Terrorism/Briefing/2007/06/25/aclu_us_holds_19000_terror_suspects/8191/#), and about 375 at the U.S. prison in Guantanamo Bay," the American Civil Liberties Union said in a statement.

Most of those detainees "do not have access to attorneys or family members, and, under terms of the Military Commissions Act eliminating habeas corpus protections, have been denied the right to challenge their detention in civilian courts," the ACLU said.

"In addition, it has come to be known that the CIA is engaging in the unlawful practice of 'extraordinary rendition' -- the kidnapping of foreign nationals for detention and interrogation in secret overseas prisons in countries where it is known detainees are routinely tortured or abused," the human rights (http://www.upi.com/Security_Terrorism/Briefing/2007/06/25/aclu_us_holds_19000_terror_suspects/8191/#) group said.
The Democratic-controlled 110th Congress has launched a more energetic oversight of the detainment programs in the war on terror (http://www.upi.com/Security_Terrorism/Briefing/2007/06/25/aclu_us_holds_19000_terror_suspects/8191/#). But the Bush administration says the current policies are essential to prevent terror groups reorganizing to carry out more deadly attacks.

http://www.upi.com/Security_Terrorism/Briefing/2007/06/25/aclu_us_holds_19000_terror_suspects/8191/

HOLM
06-27-07, 09:49 AM
HOLM, how you connect subjects is puzzling. Sometimes it appears that you take the most remote routes to attempt to prove a point and this is just another case.




You are talking about Habeas rights during a time of war..

I am simply showing you that what you are seeing is not the first time it has happened in the country...


And what do ya know? The oppostion talking points are the same..

Look up McClellan's platform

http://www.sonofthesouth.net/union-generals/mcclellan/democratic-platform-1864.htm



That is the same chit you are telling me today

...



Resolved, that this convention does explicitly declare, as the sense of the American people, that after four years of failure to restore the Union by the experiment of war, during which, under the pretence of military necessity, or war power higher than the Constitution, the Constitution itself has been disregarded in every part


Blah blah blah...

Resolved, that the aim and object of the Democratic party are to preserve the federal Union and the rights of the States unimpaired ; and they hereby declare that they consider the administrative usurpation of extraordinary and dangerous powers not granted by the Constitution; the subversion of the civil by the military laws in States not in insurrection; the arbitrary military arrest, imprisonment, trial, and sentence of American citizens in States where civil law exists in full force; the suppression of freedom of speech and of the press; the denial of the right of asylum; the open and avowed disregard of State rights; the employment of unusual test oaths, and the interference with and denial of the right of the people to bear arms in their defense, as calculated to prevent a restoration of the Union and the perpetuation of a government deriving its just powers from the consent of the governed.

Resolved, that the sympathy of the Democratic party is heartily and earnestly extended to the soldiers of our army and the seamen of our navy,


Look they even threw in the "support the troops bit... :devious:





Mr. Lincoln was killed for his thinking. That certainly removed him from office.
I can't believe you just said that.. :thumbdown




And quote the ACLU.. that is frign great....

Like we are just going around roughing up folks for fun. Please...

HOLM
06-27-07, 09:56 AM
Saved the best for last
Resolved, that the aim and object of the Democratic party are to preserve the federal Union and the rights of the States unimpaired ; and they hereby declare that they consider the administrative usurpation of extraordinary and dangerous powers not granted by the Constitution; the subversion of the civil by the military laws in States not in insurrection; the arbitrary military arrest, imprisonment, trial, and sentence of American citizens in States where civil law exists in full force; the suppression of freedom of speech and of the press; the denial of the right of asylum; the open and avowed disregard of State rights; the employment of unusual test oaths, and the interference with and denial of the right of the people to bear arms in their defense, as calculated to prevent a restoration of the Union and the perpetuation of a government deriving its just powers from the consent of the governed.


Resolved, that the shameful disregard by the administration of its duty in respect to our fellow-citizens who are now and have long been prisoners of war in a suffering condition, deserves the severest reprobation on the score alike of public policy and common humanity.

jetdawgg
06-27-07, 10:00 AM
HOLM the subject is GTMO. You brought the other entities into the discussion.

No worries.

Again even if we are not roughing up folks, we are holding them in a manner that USA should not be. Humans have rights regardless of where they come from.

It is much better to be the moral lead as you will attract more alliances. The current slate has done the opposite. It is there for all to see and our allies have deserted us

MGySgtSki
06-27-07, 10:13 AM
Jet, looks like you missed this part or decline to recognize it: <br />
<br />
&quot;The primary purpose of holding enemy combatants during wartime is not punitive but preventive--to keep them off the battlefield....

jetdawgg
06-27-07, 10:29 AM
MSGTSki, I did not miss the point. These people are called 'detainees' not enemy combatants. Not POW's

They are called this so the the administration can circumvent the laws of war and the Gen Con. You seem to miss that point.

Too much FIX'ed News, I mean FOX Noise Channel viewing going on here.

How can you not see that we have lost our alliances that we gained during the past century because of this? I am just making that up? Is this a sound and scaleable policy?:usmc:

MGySgtSki
06-27-07, 11:40 AM
MSGTSki, I did not miss the point. These people are called 'detainees' not enemy combatants. Not POW's

They are called this so the the administration can circumvent the laws of war and the Gen Con. You seem to miss that point.

Too much FIX'ed News, I mean FOX Noise Channel viewing going on here.

How can you not see that we have lost our alliances that we gained during the past century because of this? I am just making that up? Is this a sound and scaleable policy?:usmc:

What exact laws of war would you propose that we've violated? It's apparent to me that the Supreme Court has determined the "detainees" are indeed enemy combatants and are to be treated as POWs.

As far as alliances we've lost, I really think we're better off without the French and their fair-weather friend ilk. At least now we really know who's our friend out there and who's going to stab us in the back and sell us out. Then again, I'm just a simpleton I suppose.

S/F

erased
06-27-07, 11:49 AM
Right, because it's in our best interest to be seen as a rogue nation.

jetdawgg
06-27-07, 11:55 AM
Sir not being a lawyer, I am not one to really know all of the laws that we have violated here. There are countries in the world that want to try people from this administration for war crimes:

http://www.bushcommission.org/

The Supreme Court is suspect at this point in time as it hand picked the current CIC for selection as president in 2000. Credibility is a real issue here.
It is more than the French that we have lost.

In another thread I posted where people from many nations feel that the USA is lost or in the very least off track. The Gen Con was a treaty signed by many nations to act as a guideline for treatment of POW's.

Clearly this admin is circumventing and skirting as many rules of engagement as possible to even naming POW's 'detainees' to get away with abuses and injustice.

This is pathetic and just not a scaleable solution to a long term problem. In fact it is making the problem (terrorism) worse.

Sgt Leprechaun
06-27-07, 05:46 PM
So, it's one vast conspiracy, eh? I don't buy it. <br />
<br />
Again and again, I've said this, the Hague/Geneva conventions offer little to no protection for terrorists and guerrillas. <br />
<br />
Also, it's not...

jetdawgg
06-28-07, 09:43 AM
SGT Lep, with this admin it is unrealistic to think that they could conspire that well.

The level of ineptitude displayed here is unprecedented in my lifetime.
I remember an old commercial that stated:

"Is that anyway to run an airline?".....

Just input "gov't" vice 'airline'.....

OLE SARG
06-28-07, 10:14 AM
Just wait jet, if hildabeast gets elected you will see ineptitude at it's finest!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! AND with pelose and dirty harry in the congress, ineptitueness will flurrish!!!

SEMPER FI,

jetdawgg
06-28-07, 10:28 AM
OLE Sarge this admin created the opportunity for them to win and win big.

HOLM
06-28-07, 10:38 AM
George McGovern...


Ya know... The election that the "anti War" Candidate lost in a landslide..



I wouldn't count the chickens till they hatch

jetdawgg
06-28-07, 10:39 AM
George McGovern...


Look at how the democrats lost big then....