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crate78
06-16-07, 10:37 AM
A local farmer named Ron Meyer, who claims to have done a tour in Vietnam with the 26th Marines in 1966 and 1967, had an anti-war op-ed piece published in the Lincoln Journal-Star this morning.

In the piece, he claims Smedley Butler became disillusioned later in life and stated that, "as a soldier he had been used as a 'gang-like mobster' to protect American banking and corporate interests that plundered other nations and their people".

Before I do extensive research on my own, does anyone better informed than I know anything about a comment like this from Butler? Meyer's statement that Butler refered to himself as a "soldier" throws up a red flag immediately.

Also, were the 26th Marines in Vietnam in 1966 and 1967? If they were, how could I confirm that a farmer from Nebraska named Ron Meyer was a member?

I'd love to bust this guy on general principals.

crate

yellowwing
06-16-07, 10:42 AM
We go do our jobs. You know better than me SSgt.

Ed Palmer
06-16-07, 11:09 AM
http://www.the7thfire.com/Politics%20and%20History/Gen-Smedley-Butler.htm

General Smedley Butler: an Honest War Hero

Smedley Darlington Butler, Major General - United States Marine Corps [Retired], was born in West Chester, Pa., July 30, 1881, educated at Haverford School, married Ethel C. Peters, of Philadelphia, June 30, 1905. He was awarded two congressional medals of honor, for capture of Vera Cruz, Mexico, 1914, and for capture of Ft. Riviere, Haiti, 1917. He was also awarded the Distinguished Service Medal in 1919.

He joined the Marine Corps when the Spanish American War broke out, earned the Brevette Medal during the Boxer Rebellion in China, saw action in Central America, and in France during World War I was promoted to Major General. Smedley Butler served his country for 34 years, yet he spoke against American armed intervention into the affairs of sovereign nations. Throughout his life, Butler demonstrated that true patriotism does not mean blind allegiance to government policies with which one does not agree.

Unhappy with the Marine Corps bureaucracy, he took a leave of absence to act as director of Department of Safety, Philadelphia, 1932 but encountered much opposition from government officials who were in league with the illegal liquor syndicates. In Oct. 1, 1931 General Butler retired. To earn extra income he became a lecturer throughout the 1930's, was a Republican Candidate for Senate in 1932, and was asked to head an alternative government by right-wing industrialists. He died of cancer at Naval Hospital, Philadelphia, June 21, 1940

FistFu68
06-16-07, 12:00 PM
:evilgrin: YES THE 26TH.MARINE REGIMENT,WAS IN THE 'NAM;DURING THAT TIME PERIOD!!!A.K.A.THE PROFESSIONAL'S.YOU CAN GET THE COMPANY ROSTER,FROM HQ.'S MARINE CORP'S;BUT THEY WILL ONLY SEND YOU THE DAILY ROSTER FOR 3 MONTH'S AT A CRACK.IT WILL HAVE,EVERY SWINGING DICK;THAT WAS THERE OR ON LEAVE,R&R,SICK BAY OR WHEREVER?ASK HIM WHAT MONTH'S HE WAS THERE?IT TAKES A'BOUT 6 WEEEK'S TO GET THE ROSTER FROM THE CORP'S,BUT YOU HAVE TOO KNOW WHAT BN.AND WHAT COMPANY HE WAS IN,S/SGT!!!

10thzodiac
06-16-07, 02:14 PM
A local farmer named Ron Meyer, who claims to have done a tour in Vietnam with the 26th Marines in 1966 and 1967, had an anti-war op-ed piece published in the Lincoln Journal-Star this morning.

In the piece, he claims Smedley Butler became disillusioned later in life and stated that, "as a soldier he had been used as a 'gang-like mobster' to protect American banking and corporate interests that plundered other nations and their people".

Before I do extensive research on my own, does anyone better informed than I know anything about a comment like this from Butler? Meyer's statement that Butler refered to himself as a "soldier" throws up a red flag immediately.

Also, were the 26th Marines in Vietnam in 1966 and 1967? If they were, how could I confirm that a farmer from Nebraska named Ron Meyer was a member?


I'd love to bust this guy on general principals.

crate


I was a Gangster for Capitalism

by Major General Smedley Butler

November 1935

Major General Smedley Darlington Butler (July 30, 1881 - June 21, 1940) was at the time of his death the most decorated U.S. Marine in history. He was twice the recipient of the Medal of Honor, one of only nineteen to be so honored.


http://www.doublestandards.org/smedleybutler.jpg

Smedley Butler on Interventionism

-- Excerpt from a speech delivered in 1933, by Major General Smedley Butler, USMC.


War is just a racket. A racket is best described, I believe, as something that is not what it seems to the majority of people. Only a small inside group knows what it is about. It is conducted for the benefit of the very few at the expense of the masses.



I believe in adequate defense at the coastline and nothing else. If a nation comes over here to fight, then we'll fight. The trouble with America is that when the dollar only earns 6 percent over here, then it gets restless and goes overseas to get 100 percent. Then the flag follows the dollar and the soldiers follow the flag.

I wouldn't go to war again as I have done to protect some lousy investment of the bankers. There are only two things we should fight for. One is the defense of our homes and the other is the Bill of Rights. War for any other reason is simply a racket.

There isn't a trick in the racketeering bag that the military gang is blind to. It has its "finger men" to point out enemies, its "muscle men" to destroy enemies, its "brain men" to plan war preparations, and a "Big Boss" Super-Nationalistic-Capitalism.

It may seem odd for me, a military man to adopt such a comparison. Truthfulness compels me to. I spent thirty- three years and four months in active military service as a member of this country's most agile military force, the Marine Corps. I served in all commissioned ranks from Second Lieutenant to Major-General. And during that period, I spent most of my time being a high class muscle- man for Big Business, for Wall Street and for the Bankers. In short, I was a racketeer, a gangster for capitalism.

I suspected I was just part of a racket at the time. Now I am sure of it. Like all the members of the military profession, I never had a thought of my own until I left the service. My mental faculties remained in suspended animation while I obeyed the orders of higher-ups. This is typical with everyone in the military service.

I helped make Mexico, especially Tampico, safe for American oil interests in 1914. I helped make Haiti and Cuba a decent place for the National City Bank boys to collect revenues in. I helped in the raping of half a dozen Central American republics for the benefits of Wall Street. The record of racketeering is long. I helped purify Nicaragua for the international banking house of Brown Brothers in 1909-1912 (where have I heard that name before?). I brought light to the Dominican Republic for American sugar interests in 1916. In China I helped to see to it that Standard Oil went its way unmolested.

During those years, I had, as the boys in the back room would say, a swell racket. Looking back on it, I feel that I could have given Al Capone a few hints. The best he could do was to operate his racket in three districts. I operated on three continents.






</PRE>

erased
06-16-07, 03:15 PM
I guess that question is answered, eh? It invokes a strange feeling to hear a Marine Corps legend say those things 74 years ago. I wonder if other legendary Marines had similar feelings of government misuse of military might.

FistFu68
06-16-07, 03:56 PM
:evilgrin: HOW WOULD HAVE MAJOR GENERAL BUTLER,HAVE REACTED TO THE ATTACK'S ON THE WORLD TRADE CENTER(A.K.A.911)???:evilgrin: :iwo:

erased
06-16-07, 06:36 PM
I imagine he would've wanted to go after the people who organized it. We haven't done that yet... I have to wonder why.

10thzodiac
06-16-07, 06:54 PM
:evilgrin: HOW WOULD HAVE MAJOR GENERAL BUTLER,HAVE REACTED TO THE ATTACK'S ON THE WORLD TRADE CENTER(A.K.A.911)???:evilgrin: :iwo:

If, anyone listened to Major General Butler 9/11 would of never happened.

"Let's build up a national defense so tight that even a rat couldn't crawl through!" ~ Excerpt from a speech delivered in 1933, by Major General Smedley Butler, USMC on Interventionism

HOLM
06-16-07, 07:01 PM
Ya'll That maginot line don't work...


The great wall didn't work...


And I have damn sure played enough Rugbyto know that standing at middle field and forming a big line to hold off the attackers damn sure ain't guna work...


I read something once in a manual about attacking THROUGH the enemy...



Besides that.. With todays weapons tech.. Butlers big Navy program would be defeated in about a half a second..

Ya can only shoot missles down for so long before ya have to go after that launcher...


And I say why wait to see if you missle defense system works...

HOLM
06-16-07, 07:02 PM
http://www.thepeoplescube.com/images/Maginot_Line_400.gif

crate78
06-16-07, 09:32 PM
Guess I got my questions answered, but, dang, it irks to hear a fellow Marine spout off anti-war stuff.

crate

10thzodiac
06-17-07, 06:43 AM
Guess I got my questions answered, but, dang, it irks to hear a fellow Marine spout off anti-war stuff.

crate

Try, "it irks to hear a fellow Marine spout off pro-war stuff."

In my experience as a Marine there were enough Marines that I saw, especially S/NCO's that weren't eager to go into harms way.

When my unit was jetted into Cuba I'll never forget that not only did my 1st Sergeant disappear at El Toro, MCAS, my one big nasty mouthed platoon sergeant pretended he hurt his leg (crutches and all) so he wouldn't have to go.

When my unit was sent to Vietnam, guess who bugged out first, our First Sergeant (different one). My Gunny (Bn. Comm. Chief) didn't want to go for the second time either, saying we were going to loose this war and he wasn't going to be in it.

It seems to me from the safety of our computer consuls there are some of us too eager to have someone else run off to war to look down the barrel of a gun instead of their-selves. Reminds me of that above Platoon sergeant of mine, all 'big mouth Marine' until the sh!t hits the fan.

I suppose I'm going to hear now from some of you now, "I was in the sh!t and/or I'd go, but I'm too old or I'm too lame, otherwise I'd go in a heart beat ! Well, you know what, in my opinion you are either a fool or have a big ****** mouth.

"I wouldn't go to war again as I have done to protect some lousy investment of the bankers. There are only two things we should fight for. One is the defense of our homes and the other is the Bill of Rights. War for any other reason is simply a racket." ~ General Smedley D. Butler USMC

Ditto

SF :usmc:

10thz

Sgt Leprechaun
06-17-07, 12:33 PM
I also heard that in later years, General Butler renounced his prior stand. However, I can't back that up with a quote or other source material, I just recall reading it someplace.

Check to see if the 26th Marines have a website, or a reunion outfit, that is another good way to locate a potential wannabee, altho perhaps this guy is what and who he says he is.

I knew 10Z would be able to post stuff about Butler!

Also, I know there is at least one bio out there someplace.

General Butler would perhaps change his mind in today's world. Remember, that the 'bannana wars' were just that, small counterinsurgency campaigns that were, in fact, fought for big business and the various sugar, fruit, and other corporations of the time.

You also have to remember WHAT time period this was; the era of rampant capitalism, teapot dome, 'the roaring 20's' and that whole bit.

So, while General Butler's quotes and words are, I believe, correct for HIS time, they perhaps don't fit into ours. Nor, realistically, do they even fit into the WWII era. This is called 'taking history out of context'. Most people tend to forget that.

Sgt0811
06-17-07, 02:41 PM
The web site for the 26th Marines is: www.26thMarines.org

FistFu68
06-17-07, 02:57 PM
:evilgrin:I PERSONALLY KNOW A BUNCH OF MARINES I SERVED, WITH THE 26TH MARINE REGIMENT;THAT DON'T DO REUNION'S.OR WHO DO NOT BELONG TO THE ASSOCIATION,MOST WERE DRAFTEE'S.LIKE A FORMER CPL.FROM MIKE COMPANY TOLD ME, JACK THE WAR IS OVER FOR ME.DON'T WANNA HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH THE CORPS,OR ANY REUNION'S OR ANY OF THAT BULLCHIT.HE CONSIDERED THE WHOLE DEAL,A WASTE OF LIFE.HE SAID IT WAS THE DARKEST TIME OF HIS WHOLE LIFE! I RESPECT HIS OPIONION,HE FOUGHT FOR IT. TO EACH HIS OWN? SO YOU'R WANNABEE,MIGHT NOT BE ON THE ASSOCIATION'S ROLL'S!!!SEMPER~FI...:evilgrin: :iwo:

JCam0331
06-17-07, 03:29 PM
Ya'll That maginot line don't work...


The great wall didn't work...


And I have damn sure played enough Rugbyto know that standing at middle field and forming a big line to hold off the attackers damn sure ain't guna work...


I read something once in a manual about attacking THROUGH the enemy...



Besides that.. With todays weapons tech.. Butlers big Navy program would be defeated in about a half a second..

Ya can only shoot missles down for so long before ya have to go after that launcher...


And I say why wait to see if you missle defense system works...


Sorry bro, but the Maginot Line worked PERFECTLY.

The purpose of the Maginot Line was to discourage Germany from attacking straight into France and instead diverting their forces through the Ardennes Forest in Belgium, where top of the line French units would be waiting.

That was EXACTLY what the Germans did, and the Maginot Line was one of the last French positions to surrender, only because ordered so by the French government.

The Belgian/French Forces was defeated by the Germans due to inferiority in French tactics and the rigid top-down structure of the French chain of command, having to wait for outdated instructions from Paris, whilst German field commarders were allowed to make important decisions as the conditions of the field changed and numerous other factors.

But just to let you know that the Maginot Line worked EXACTLY as advertised.

Sgt Leprechaun
06-17-07, 03:45 PM
Good point Fist, something else to consider.

HOLM
06-17-07, 04:13 PM
But just to let you know that the Maginot Line worked EXACTLY as advertised.


Ummmm yeah... The Germans went around the damn thing and had France in less than 5 days.. That is not how it was advertised to work...


Sounds like a good plan to me...


Maybe the wall just wasn't big enough... please..


Like I said before... The Germans attacked quickly and furiously right through the defenses of the French... Cut of the supply routes and the game was over..


I thought I mentioned

I read something once in a manual about attacking THROUGH the enemy...


A much more sound defensive policy in practice... You sit and wait for him... I am going to jab his ass over and over again following through with a big right hand that comes in fast and hard, and his uppercut/right hook combo will never amount to a hill of beans...


And if your defenses are flat footed and stationary the enemy can just sit there and scout them out... Waiting and testing to find the weak point..

Standing flat on you feet only allows the enemy to pick his shots.. and sooner or later he is going to start landing them.. Then you will find that you have to chase his ass down.. But you have spent all of your effort and time, and money training on how to repel attacks from a stationary position.. Men that train in such a manner make horrible attack forces...




Take Iwo for example... We needed that baby fast.. Or else all that we had to do was sit and wait.. sooner or later the Japs would have gotten real hungry... and real tired of the shelling....



You figure out how to get Washington to stop the Mexican population from flocking over the border.. and only then will I even listen to a "Maginot" "great wall" defensive theory...

jetdawgg
06-17-07, 04:40 PM
I imagine he would've wanted to go after the people who organized it. We haven't done that yet... I have to wonder why.

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/South_Asia/images/osama-travel.gif

http://www.myspacecomedy.com/images/funny/Osama-show.jpg

A-1 dirt
06-17-07, 05:04 PM
Ron Meyer is a neighbor and friend of mine .He did seve with the 26th Marines in Vietnam. You may disagree with him but he is one of the least phony most honest people I know. Dave Lovewell Superior Nebraska Alpha Company First Battalion Fourt Marines 66-67

A-1 dirt
06-17-07, 05:15 PM
Ron Meyer is a neighbor and friend of mine. He did serve with the 26th marines in Vietnam. You may disagree with Ron but he is one of the least phony most honest people I know. Dave Lovewell Superior Nebraska Alpha One Four 66-67

bobdon
06-17-07, 05:17 PM
Ask him about Khe Sanh...then post it....I will tell you if his story is true....all 77days worth..:evilgrin::usmc:

JCam0331
06-17-07, 06:41 PM
Ummmm yeah... The Germans went around the damn thing and had France in less than 5 days.. That is not how it was advertised to work...


Sounds like a good plan to me...


Maybe the wall just wasn't big enough... please..


Like I said before... The Germans attacked quickly and furiously right through the defenses of the French... Cut of the supply routes and the game was over..


I thought I mentioned

I read something once in a manual about attacking THROUGH the enemy...


A much more sound defensive policy in practice... You sit and wait for him... I am going to jab his ass over and over again following through with a big right hand that comes in fast and hard, and his uppercut/right hook combo will never amount to a hill of beans...


And if your defenses are flat footed and stationary the enemy can just sit there and scout them out... Waiting and testing to find the weak point..

Standing flat on you feet only allows the enemy to pick his shots.. and sooner or later he is going to start landing them.. Then you will find that you have to chase his ass down.. But you have spent all of your effort and time, and money training on how to repel attacks from a stationary position.. Men that train in such a manner make horrible attack forces...




Take Iwo for example... We needed that baby fast.. Or else all that we had to do was sit and wait.. sooner or later the Japs would have gotten real hungry... and real tired of the shelling....



You figure out how to get Washington to stop the Mexican population from flocking over the border.. and only then will I even listen to a "Maginot" "great wall" defensive theory...

You're sidetracking

you said the Maginot Line did not work.

The Maginot Line was an astounding success. Germans dared not try to breach the lines of French fortifications.

The French Command wanted Germany to attack through the Ardennes Forest of Belgium, a tactically favorable position for the defense, and thats what Germany did.

Too bad the French Generals were too inept to stop the Germans AFTER their plan worked

lol

JCam0331
06-17-07, 06:44 PM
Ron Meyer is a neighbor and friend of mine .He did seve with the 26th Marines in Vietnam. You may disagree with him but he is one of the least phony most honest people I know. Dave Lovewell Superior Nebraska Alpha Company First Battalion Fourt Marines 66-67


Just on a side note - I just wanted to know since when did someone's opinion of the Iraq war put the credibility of their prior service in jeopardy??

I've seen that amongst fellow Marines not just with this guy, but also with several politicians such as John Kerry and John Murtha.

Heck, Jim Webb would probably be thrown into the fire too had he not earned a Navy Cross !!

HOLM
06-17-07, 07:16 PM
You're sidetracking

you said the Maginot Line did not work.

The Maginot Line was an astounding success. Germans dared not try to breach the lines of French fortifications.


lol
I understand your point that the plan worked on the level that the Germans "had" to side step the wall.... but the purpose of the wall was defend the country... It didn't even come close to serving that purpose.. In fact if you figure the HUGE dollar cost in building a wall that when the time came proved itself to be ineffective it should be considered extremely detrimental to its intended purpose.

All the Germans had to do was make it look like they were actually going to attack the wall and the French braced themselves and waited...

My basic problem with such a wall, or similar defensive strategy is that the basic idea is fundamentally flawed.. The same types of minds that think you can defend yourself from a military attack in such a manner... (that the French knew was coming or they wouldn't have built the ineffective wall) are that those types of minds are not capable of managing an effective strategy that would ACTUALLY serve its intended purpose and defend the borders... The whole French plan was focused on that wall doing its job... And it didn't...




Any way you slice it.. at the end of the day the system that thought the wall would work failed... A bigger or longer or better wall would not fix this judgmental error... A Wall will not stop a modern military, It will only make it easier for them to watch the defensive forces try to start an attack.. these "wall" and "borders" ideas were of thing of the past around 1917 or so...


If you know that the attack is coming you fight it in enemy territory.. not on your own... and that is real hard to do that from behind a damn wall of any type...


The German version didn't work at the end day of the day either.....


Of course the French thought they were fighting the "phony war" when they were building the Maginot line... So maybe it is the minds, and not how much concrete you can stack up that is important...

HOLM
06-17-07, 07:33 PM
Never mind that last post... I know how I can sum that up shorter and better...


By 1936 Hilter has violated every League of Nations deal that had been made post ww1... Now they had some big meeting about this right?


So instead of going and kicking some butt.. They built a stupid wall and talked some more...

Even into 1940 WW2 was refered to by some in Europe as the "Phony War" (Gee do I smell a trend)


That is my problem with the wall.... If they would have attacked Germany in 1938 when everyone in the damn world knew that Hitler was a problem and decided not to do anything about it.... The loss of life would have been much less... On both sides...


Hell... In 1938 Japan had already whacked a couple million chinnesse and openly joined forces with Hitler....

Active foreign policy makes the left cry and whine... It always has since the beginning of mankind... At the end of the day ... It saves lives...

Walls fall down...

10thzodiac
06-17-07, 08:04 PM
I also heard that in later years, General Butler renounced his prior stand. However, I can't back that up with a quote or other source material, I just recall reading it someplace.

Maybe in your dreams, Sgt Lep ? http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/tsmileys2/18.gif

Check to see if the 26th Marines have a website, or a reunion outfit, that is another good way to locate a potential wannabee, altho perhaps this guy is what and who he says he is.

I knew 10Z would be able to post stuff about Butler!

Also, I know there is at least one bio out there someplace.

General Butler would perhaps change his mind in today's world. Remember, that the 'bannana wars' were just that, small counterinsurgency campaigns that were, in fact, fought for big business and the various sugar, fruit, and other corporations of the time.

Sgt. Lep, I see you're totally ignorant ("banana wars") and know nothing of General Butler (Oil):

In a speech in 1933, Butler said the following:

“I helped make Mexico, especially Tampico, safe for American oil interests in 1914. I helped make Haiti and Cuba a decent place for the National City Bank boys to collect revenues in. I helped in the raping of half a dozen Central American republics for the benefit of Wall Street. The record of racketeering is long. I helped purify Nicaragua for the international banking house of Brown Brothers in 1909-1912. I brought light to the Dominican Republic for American sugar interests in 1916. In China I helped to see to it that Standard Oil went its way unmolested.”


You also have to remember WHAT time period this was; the era of rampant capitalism, teapot dome, 'the roaring 20's' and that whole bit.

So, while General Butler's quotes and words are, I believe, correct for HIS time, they perhaps don't fit into ours. Nor, realistically, do they even fit into the WWII era. This is called 'taking history out of context'. Most people tend to forget that.

Out of date, out of context ? I'm interested on how you, HOLM and the other wingnuts will try to explain away this former current Pentagon Lt. Colonels views, that mirror our General Smedley D. Butler's that War is a Racket (http://www.wanttoknow.info/warisaracket) . Will it be this Colonel is a female and/or she's Army, therefore what she thinks and says makes her a moonbat ?

Retired Lieutenant Colonel Karen Kwiatkowski, who has also appeared in Robert Greenwald’s Uncovered: The Whole Truth About the Iraq War, left the military after serving in the Pentagon during the build-up to the Iraq War. The war was something she saw no justification for, to the point that she had to remove herself from the process, which ended her military career. In Kwiatkowski we have a once-proud soldier who now would not allow her two sons to enlist. She brings the discussion back to Smedley Butler territory when she says, “If you join the military today, you are not serving your country. You are helping a group of pundits advance an imperialist agenda.”


http://www.moviefreak.com/artman/publish/movie_whywefight.shtml

I have just rented above movie (URL) "Why We Fight" from Netflix http://www.leatherneck.com/forums/images/icons/icon14.gif

HOLM
06-17-07, 10:28 PM
Oh yeah... 10z... quote "deep throat"


I am always amazed by that chit...

Bush became president in jan 20th 2001... and by the middle of 2002 those folks claim that he was able to dominate all of the pentagon and CIA information systems...

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHA....

After 8 years of clinton... and Bush didn't even fire all the Clinton staff...

HAHAHAHAHHAHA... Maybe Bush should have done a little more "De-Clintonization"

10thzodiac
06-17-07, 10:48 PM
And I'm amazed at your naivety Holm that you would bring up the Maginot Line ! WTF does that have to do with a bunch of camel jockeys [terrorist] without a navy ? They can't swim that far [our shores] and our government would [hopefully] get suspicious if that many Arabs started booking flights all at once to come here.

Some neo-cons really did a good job blowing smoke up your's and Sgt. Lep's ass, you two believing if we don't stop them there we'll be fighting them here nonsense.

I'm still waiting for the Viet Cong to attack the San Diego beaches like president Johnson warned if we don't stop them in Indochina.

Have you checked the poll on L'necks Home Page lately ?

HOLM
06-17-07, 11:02 PM
Read that poll question again 1oz...


Neo Cons... HAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHA....


AQ was the guys that claimed responsibilty for 911 right?

Did the NVA try that?

10thzodiac
06-17-07, 11:24 PM
Read that poll question again 1oz...

You canceled my vote, but you are still in the minority !

Neo Cons... HAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHA....

I knew you'd like keeping that close to home http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/tsmileys2/04.gif

AQ was the guys that claimed responsibilty for 911 right?

Ever hear of "Blow-back" ? Regan-Beruit...

Did the NVA try that?

Didn't have too, they had China !



http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/tsmileys2/18.gif

JCam0331
06-18-07, 07:52 AM
I understand your point that the plan worked on the level that the Germans "had" to side step the wall.... but the purpose of the wall was defend the country... It didn't even come close to serving that purpose.. In fact if you figure the HUGE dollar cost in building a wall that when the time came proved itself to be ineffective it should be considered extremely detrimental to its intended purpose.

All the Germans had to do was make it look like they were actually going to attack the wall and the French braced themselves and waited...

My basic problem with such a wall, or similar defensive strategy is that the basic idea is fundamentally flawed.. The same types of minds that think you can defend yourself from a military attack in such a manner... (that the French knew was coming or they wouldn't have built the ineffective wall) are that those types of minds are not capable of managing an effective strategy that would ACTUALLY serve its intended purpose and defend the borders... The whole French plan was focused on that wall doing its job... And it didn't...




Any way you slice it.. at the end of the day the system that thought the wall would work failed... A bigger or longer or better wall would not fix this judgmental error... A Wall will not stop a modern military, It will only make it easier for them to watch the defensive forces try to start an attack.. these "wall" and "borders" ideas were of thing of the past around 1917 or so...


If you know that the attack is coming you fight it in enemy territory.. not on your own... and that is real hard to do that from behind a damn wall of any type...


The German version didn't work at the end day of the day either.....


Of course the French thought they were fighting the "phony war" when they were building the Maginot line... So maybe it is the minds, and not how much concrete you can stack up that is important...

you got some great points bro. Unfortunately the French were not strong enough to invade Germany. They would have been crushed.

drumcorpssnare
06-18-07, 03:16 PM
The French weren't real bright in their planning of the Maginot Line.
The heavy guns in the line could only traverse l. and r. enough to fire on Germany! The hubris of the French didn't allow them to see that maybe they would need to train those guns on France, to oust a German invader.
The Ottoman Turks made the same mistake at Aquaba in WW I. But, T.E. Lawrence and his Bedouins attacked from the rear, and the Turks could only point their artillery to the sea!
The French govt. did, in fact, tell it's people the Line would stop the Germans. The project almost bankrupted the French nation! They never even considered how easy it would be, for German paratroopers to simply "jump" the line!!!
When it comes to fighting....you pretty much have to put the French at the bottom of the list!

And 10thz...Smedley talks about Haiti and Nicaraugua, whose conflicts of the 20's/30's are universally referred to as "The Banana Wars."

drumcorpssnare:usmc:

10thzodiac
06-18-07, 05:31 PM
The French weren't real bright in their planning of the Maginot Line.
The heavy guns in the line could only traverse l. and r. enough to fire on Germany! The hubris of the French didn't allow them to see that maybe they would need to train those guns on France, to oust a German invader.
The Ottoman Turks made the same mistake at Aquaba in WW I. But, T.E. Lawrence and his Bedouins attacked from the rear, and the Turks could only point their artillery to the sea!
The French govt. did, in fact, tell it's people the Line would stop the Germans. The project almost bankrupted the French nation! They never even considered how easy it would be, for German paratroopers to simply "jump" the line!!!
When it comes to fighting....you pretty much have to put the French at the bottom of the list!

And 10thz...Smedley talks about Haiti and Nicaraugua, whose conflicts of the 20's/30's are universally referred to as "The Banana Wars."

drumcorpssnare:usmc:

Uh...why do you wingnuts always say it is not oil ?

In a speech in 1933, Butler said the following:

“I helped make Mexico, especially Tampico, safe for American oil interests in 1914. I helped make Haiti and Cuba a decent place for the National City Bank boys to collect revenues in. I helped in the raping of half a dozen Central American republics for the benefit of Wall Street. The record of racketeering is long. I helped purify Nicaragua for the international banking house of Brown Brothers in 1909-1912. I brought light to the Dominican Republic for American sugar interests in 1916. In China I helped to see to it that Standard Oil went its way unmolested.”

jetdawgg
06-18-07, 06:41 PM
If we don't fight them there....
Supporting our Troops....
Hillary....
Macaca....
Terrorists.....
Homocide Bomber.....
Cut and Run....
Cease Fire Crowd....
Moonbats.....
Jihadists.....
Defeatocrats....
Mission Accomplished.....
Bomb Iran.....
http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u17/jetdawgg/Sheeple20Watch20Fox20News.jpg

Sgt Leprechaun
06-18-07, 07:55 PM
I guess I'm a wingnut then. If it's about oil, why are my gas prices so high?

Oh, yeah, I keep forgetting, the bushcheneyhalliburton evil minion conspiracy. Riiiighht.

Cute photo Jet. I'd change the channel tho to show the regular media. Probably more appropriate.

Yep. Defeatocrats works for me!

JCam0331
06-18-07, 08:20 PM
The French weren't real bright in their planning of the Maginot Line.
The heavy guns in the line could only traverse l. and r. enough to fire on Germany! The hubris of the French didn't allow them to see that maybe they would need to train those guns on France, to oust a German invader.
The Ottoman Turks made the same mistake at Aquaba in WW I. But, T.E. Lawrence and his Bedouins attacked from the rear, and the Turks could only point their artillery to the sea!
The French govt. did, in fact, tell it's people the Line would stop the Germans. The project almost bankrupted the French nation! They never even considered how easy it would be, for German paratroopers to simply "jump" the line!!!
When it comes to fighting....you pretty much have to put the French at the bottom of the list!

And 10thz...Smedley talks about Haiti and Nicaraugua, whose conflicts of the 20's/30's are universally referred to as "The Banana Wars."

drumcorpssnare:usmc:

You're right that the Maginot Line cost a fortune and that money could have been used elsewhere. But it worked. Instead of having to defense the entire border, now the French only had to defend a small stretch where they shared with Belgium.

And German Paratroopers jump the line?


rofl with no armor support? Thats suicide.

Look up Operation Market Garden. Catastrophic failure in the use of airborne troops.

Airborne operations are risky to begin with. Dropping German troops in the heart of France is asking to have your butt handed to you.

JCam0331
06-18-07, 08:24 PM
I guess I'm a wingnut then. If it's about oil, why are my gas prices so high?

Oh, yeah, I keep forgetting, the bushcheneyhalliburton evil minion conspiracy. Riiiighht.

Cute photo Jet. I'd change the channel tho to show the regular media. Probably more appropriate.

Yep. Defeatocrats works for me!

I don't think oil was the primary objective, but it surely is part of it.

Why are your gas prices so high? Because our military has failed to bring peace and stability to Iraq, insurgents are still attempting to (with varying degrees of success) destroying Iraqs oil production capabilities, Chinese comsumption (and many newly industrializing states) is increasing exponentially and other reasons beyond our control

as for the defeatocrats, I've never heard of such a politcal party. Is that one you're starting up? I hope you have some funds to run for public office but I doubt you'd get far with such a name for your party, kind of has a bad ring to it.

HOLM
06-18-07, 08:28 PM
You're right that the Maginot Line cost a fortune and that money could have been used elsewhere. But it worked. Instead of having to defense the entire border, now the French only had to defend a small stretch where they shared with Belgium.



Or the league of Nations could have grew some balls and started enforcing its laws, and there would have been no German army to contend with in the first frign place.....


And the mentality that built the wall is what failed.. A small German decoy is all that it took to make such Brilliant French military strategist's think it was actually going to work..


Walls fall down..

MOUNTAINWILLIAM
06-18-07, 08:50 PM
Just a couple of notes on Ol' Smedley;

I understand a lot of his reputation was enhanced during the war to end all wars (WWI) when he scrounged wood to "pave the trenches" so the troops would not have to be in the mud.

He also went undercover on an investigation into members of the Congress being involved in a plot to overthrow the government. He identified a number of notables as members of the conspiracy, but the powers that be didn't want to press on because some of the folks under suspicion were too well known. Sound familiar??

Semper Fi
:flag:

JCam0331
06-18-07, 08:51 PM
Or the league of Nations could have grew some balls and started enforcing its laws, and there would have been no German army to contend with in the first frign place.....


And the mentality that built the wall is what failed.. A small German decoy is all that it took to make such Brilliant French military strategist's think it was actually going to work..


Walls fall down..

I'm loving the history debate with you !! Apparently you are a student of history as well

ok

here goes:

The League of Nations was a flawed concept. An attack on a member was supposed to have all other members react militarily to the aggression.

Doesn't this kind of present a prisoner's dilemma?

Think about it. Say you're lowly Holland. Germany attacks France. Which means you're obligated to fight Germany.

Wow, what if you send your little Dutch Army in, and the big guns like Britain just sit tight and do nothing? Didn't you just knid of screw yourself then?

Nobody trusted eachother in the League. Thats why it did not work.

I sense your sarcasm there in the "brilliant French Strategists". Yes, French Strategy was terrible. They tried to fight WW2 as if it was WWI while Germany greatly evolved their strategies and tactics to fight a new form of warfare - based on maneuver instead of fortifications.

I would never defend the French strategy in WW2. It sucked.

But I'm defending the Maginot Line was a work of great engineering. From that perspective, it worked exactly as it was supposed to work.

Sgt Leprechaun
06-18-07, 09:10 PM
The primary reason the League of Nations failed was the fact that the United States would not become a signatory.

I, too, am a student of history. The Maginot line worked exactly as intended for it's time. Sadly, the French were still focused on 'fighting the last war', and didn't keep up with "Lightning Warfare". While today the Maginot Line is regarded as somewhat of a failure, the Germans put it to good use in reverse during the fall/winter of 1944. However, they too, failed to realize that the shoe was now on the other foot, as the allied tank armies (once they overcame the fuel shortage) eventually flanked the fortifications in some areas. Also, had the Belgians agreed to allow the line into their territory, it may have been a different outcome. The Germans, tho, used the Ardennes (a ground considered impossible for tanks) to good advantage. The French still persisted in using their own tanks (which actually outnumbered the Panzerwaffe) in single or small groups, rather than as an offensive fighting force. The German army, believe it or not, was still a primarily horse drawn army for the most part until the middle part of 1943. While Rommel pushed his Panzers all the way to the outskirts of Dunkerque in 1940, the rest of the Werhmacht continued to slog and slug it out through France.

A different version, tho, of the Maginot was done up in Italy. General Kesselring (a Luftwaffe general with a grunts eye for ground fighting) managed to keep the Allies from overrunning the Italian boot right up until the end of the war, using fixed defenses similiar to the Maginot concept. The allies were constrained by terrain, which greatly favored the defender.

JCam0331
06-18-07, 09:12 PM
nice post !!

HOLM
06-18-07, 09:14 PM
I'm loving the history debate with you !! Apparently you are a student of history as well

ok

here goes:

The League of Nations was a flawed concept. An attack on a member was supposed to have all other members react militarily to the aggression.

Doesn't this kind of present a prisoner's dilemma?

Think about it. Say you're lowly Holland. Germany attacks France. Which means you're obligated to fight Germany.

Wow, what if you send your little Dutch Army in, and the big guns like Britain just sit tight and do nothing? Didn't you just knid of screw yourself then?

Nobody trusted eachother in the League. Thats why it did not work.

I sense your sarcasm there in the "brilliant French Strategists". Yes, French Strategy was terrible. They tried to fight WW2 as if it was WWI while Germany greatly evolved their strategies and tactics to fight a new form of warfare - based on maneuver instead of fortifications.

I would never defend the French strategy in WW2. It sucked.

But I'm defending the Maginot Line was a work of great engineering. From that perspective, it worked exactly as it was supposed to work.



Sounds like the ****** UN to me....

erased
06-18-07, 09:16 PM
If it's about oil, why are my gas prices so high?

Because the oil isn't for us. It's for the foreign (as in non-Iraqi) oil companies that are getting 30-year leases on Iraqi oil at huge discounts. Why would they cut into their record profits for us?

JCam0331
06-18-07, 09:21 PM
Sounds like the ****** UN to me....

The UN evolved from the League.

Also do you know what the UN's annual budget is?

1 billion dollars

Compare that with the US military annual budget of $460 billion dollars.

You honestly expect the UN to get that much done?

Sgt Leprechaun
06-18-07, 09:27 PM
JCam, thank you.

Holm, the League of Nations is what the UN was based on. Except 'this time around', the thinking was, that if the United States, Britain, France, and the USSR basically started it together (remember, this was before the Cold war) it would have more support and actually work, with some teeth to it, whereas the League, once the US didn't vote to join it, became a squabbling bunch of countries with no 'teeth' to enforce decisions.

Sgt Leprechaun
06-18-07, 09:28 PM
And...the UN budget is far more than that. That is the amount IIRC that the United States gives them.

And that should be slashed, and the UN sent packing. They have devolved into something worse than the League of Nations. Just about totally useless, unless you are a third world country looking to bash the US on it's own soil, that is.

JCam0331
06-18-07, 09:33 PM
And...the UN budget is far more than that. That is the amount IIRC that the United States gives them.

And that should be slashed, and the UN sent packing. They have devolved into something worse than the League of Nations. Just about totally useless, unless you are a third world country looking to bash the US on it's own soil, that is.

My mistake, 1.9 billion, not 1 billion. Of which the US pays $420 million or so.

The US share of the UN budget
The United States is assessed for the regular budget at the ceiling rate of 22 percent, which in 2006 was $423,464,855 of the total $1,924,840,250. This works out to be a contribution of about $1.42 per American citizen, according to 2006 census data. Japan, the second largest contributor to the regular budget at 19.47 percent, pays $374,727,900 or about $3.94 per citizen in comparison.
For the peacekeeping budget, the US is assessed 27 percent. In 2005, this amounted to about $1.28 billion, but by the end of 2005, the US still owed $521 million of that $1.28 billion to the UN for peacekeeping dues.

http://www.unausa.org/site/pp.asp?c=fvKRI8MPJpF&b=1813833



The UN should be sent packing?

How many peacekeepers does the United States have in Africa?

The UN is sorely underfunded which limits its effectiveness. It still has a place in this world, especially as a forum where every country has a say in the General Assembly.

Sgt Leprechaun
06-18-07, 09:46 PM
Quite frankly, I don't give a rip how many 'peacekeepers' we have in Africa.

We DO have many units around the Horn of Africa and such. That is plenty.

I want my 1.42 back.

I think the freakin UN should be paying US.

JCam0331
06-18-07, 09:49 PM
Its easy for you, as an American with so much wealth, freedom and security to take things for granted.

We should be doing a bigger part to making the world a better place. A large portion of the population still lives on $1 a day. A large portion of the world's population has no safe drinking water.

Many live in fear of civil war and genocide.

As the world's superpower, we need to be doing a greater part in helping to solve such problems.

Sgt Leprechaun
06-18-07, 09:57 PM
Why? If you use the 'it prevents terrorism argument', then perhaps I'll become a believer.

Otherwise, we have a myriad of problems at home that can be taken care of prior to messing around with issues that are of no concern to the average Amurkan.

Heres a question.....those horrible things you talk about (which sound like one of those 'Can't you feed a child?' commercials)....do those folks WANT our help? Why do you believe that everyone wants western culture knocking down their front door with bottled Evian water, DVD's and Paris Hilton updates 24/7?

This statement isn't directed at you personally, but I think it's typical of western liberal elite arrogance that thinks 'the world' needs us to come in and 'save them' from themselves so they can buy crap they don't need.

Let them alone. All 'we' have managed to do, for the most part is screw those places up.

erased
06-18-07, 10:29 PM
Heres a question.....those horrible things you talk about (which sound like one of those 'Can't you feed a child?' commercials)....do those folks WANT our help? Why do you believe that everyone wants western culture knocking down their front door with bottled Evian water, DVD's and Paris Hilton updates 24/7?

This statement isn't directed at you personally, but I think it's typical of western liberal elite arrogance that thinks 'the world' needs us to come in and 'save them' from themselves so they can buy crap they don't need.

Let them alone. All 'we' have managed to do, for the most part is screw those places up.

Are you talking about Iraq? If you're not, you should be. You're dead on.

Sgt Leprechaun
06-19-07, 03:16 AM
I'll grant the point to a certain degree. However, it would seem libs want to have it both ways; they want us OUT of Iraq (and in some cases Afganistan as well), but INTO such places as Sudan, Darfur, etc etc etc.

JCam0331
06-19-07, 08:20 AM
Why? If you use the 'it prevents terrorism argument', then perhaps I'll become a believer.

Otherwise, we have a myriad of problems at home that can be taken care of prior to messing around with issues that are of no concern to the average Amurkan.

Heres a question.....those horrible things you talk about (which sound like one of those 'Can't you feed a child?' commercials)....do those folks WANT our help? Why do you believe that everyone wants western culture knocking down their front door with bottled Evian water, DVD's and Paris Hilton updates 24/7?

This statement isn't directed at you personally, but I think it's typical of western liberal elite arrogance that thinks 'the world' needs us to come in and 'save them' from themselves so they can buy crap they don't need.

Let them alone. All 'we' have managed to do, for the most part is screw those places up.

The average starving family with no cleanw ater want our help.

If some power hungry mullah warlord is resisting help to their people...well thats when force of arms plays a role.

JCam0331
06-19-07, 08:21 AM
Yes we need to be in Darfur.

No, they don't need Paris Hilton Updates.

I'm talking about basic necessities. Food and clean water. Which a shockingly large number of the world's population do not have.

ggyoung
06-19-07, 10:06 AM
The big war will be over clean water.

jetdawgg
06-19-07, 10:28 AM
The big war will be over clean water.

True that:usmc:

HOLM
06-19-07, 11:19 AM
oh oh oh.. I got the answer to this one...


any one of you lefties which world powers won't let the UN make a large scale effort in Darfur..

jetdawgg
06-19-07, 11:22 AM
oh oh oh.. I got the answer to this one...


any one of you lefties which world powers won't let the UN make a large scale effort in Darfur..

Israel. They want us to bomb Iran for them.:usmc:

HOLM
06-19-07, 11:44 AM
http://www.inminds.co.uk/may17-03-565.jpghttp://www.inminds.co.uk/may17-03-598.jpg

jetdawgg
06-19-07, 12:06 PM
Just like I said, Israel

10thzodiac
06-19-07, 12:35 PM
http://ftp.metalab.unc.edu/hyperwar/AMH/XX/MidEast/Lebanon-1982-1984/USMC-Lebanon82/img/USMC-Lebanon82-39.jpg


"Over My Dead Body" A Marine takes a stand http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,953698,00.html

sgtrock1970
06-19-07, 12:57 PM
It was also said that General Butler lead the veterans bonus march on D.C. in the 30's that ended with the U.S. Army under the command of BlackJack Pershing that smashed and burned the veterans camp. If you have protected the right of free speech and defended your nation, as Smedley did, he certainly had the right to use those rights. If your remember correctly upon his return from Korea, Chesty Puller was also a critic.

jetdawgg
06-19-07, 03:03 PM
Great drop 10Z. I was stationed on Camp Geiger with the 8th Marines. We shared barracks with them 80-82.

Then we moved to Mainside. If you think that Israel is in lockstep with the USA, this shows otherwise. Those Israelis have their own agenda and it is not necessarily like that of the USA or the citizens of the USA.:usmc:

erased
06-19-07, 04:34 PM
10thzodiac, how long have you been a Jew-hater? Obviously, anyone who doesn't agree 100% with everything Israel does hates all Jews.

jetdawgg
06-19-07, 04:47 PM
10thzodiac, how long have you been a Jew-hater? Obviously, anyone who doesn't agree 100% with everything Israel does hates all Jews.


:D

Dave Coup
06-19-07, 08:34 PM
So if a person has fought for or is willing to fight for what they believe to be a just cause, they are foolish or loud mouth? Go **** yourself 10th

Tracker
06-19-07, 08:53 PM
Nothing this brave Marine may have said "later" in life tranishes in any way the extreme bravery he displayed on the battlefield nor do they portray any disloyalty to his Country or Corps. There is no reason for anyone to wonder or doubt what General Butler would have done in this war or any war, in which time period he would have served,he would do what Smedley Butler did best, fight for his country. History is full of bigger than life heros who voiced misgivings about wars in which they took part. Warriors hate war more than anything, they know the terrible costs in human suffering. However, it doesn't mean they wouldn't serve again if the nation needed them.

10thzodiac
06-19-07, 09:50 PM
10thzodiac, how long have you been a Jew-hater? Obviously, anyone who doesn't agree 100% with everything Israel does hates all Jews.

Lets put it this way, I've always been ready to give my life DEFENDING my country, not Israel or Iraqi Freedom. They can go F*ck themselves !

You may be brainwashed and/or f*cking stupid, I'm not !

<TABLE class=tborder cellSpacing=1 cellPadding=6 width="100%" align=center border=0><TBODY><TR title="Post 254105" vAlign=top><TD class=alt1 align=middle width=125>Dave Coup</TD><TD class=alt2>So if a person has fought for or is willing to fight for what they believe to be a just cause, they are foolish or loud mouth? Go **** yourself 10th</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

Yes, if they are not defending their homes or the Bill of Rights !

BTW, it is not long enough http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/tsmileys2/02.gif

http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/tsmileys2/18.gif

erased
06-20-07, 01:53 AM
Lets put it this way, I've always been ready to give my life DEFENDING my country, not Israel or Iraqi Freedom. They can go F*ck themselves !

Agreed 100%

You may be brainwashed and/or f*cking stupid, I'm not !

Judges? No, I'm sorry. "Joking" was the answer we were looking for. Better luck next time. :marine:
:banana:

yellowwing
06-20-07, 03:06 AM
Okay, 10thZ. I see this particular policy as an extension of Projecting Power.

Projecting Power is another small phrase for such a large meaning. Can Sudan or even Pakistan even think about developing the B-2 or F-22? We freakin' developed a totally new rail line for the Minute Man Missiles. That's expensive as hell! Who else can do that?

Yes we are entangled in Iraq and Afghanis-liban. But look at the global sh*t piles we are not in. Because we Project Power that we will "Smite Thee With Great Vengeance and Furious Anger", and they believe it because it is TRUE.

Okay not everyone believes that. But enough for us to be up to our arse in alligators rather than our eyeballs in alligators.

There were set Constitutional Limitations to this great power prior to 2000. But today technically lawyerly legally there is none. Not even the people's voice of the Congress can stop a sole decision maker, right or wrong.

Oil? Ha! The price of oils has remained constant within normal global fluctuations. Check it out on the global market values.

Why does does gasoline remain HIGH in Des Moines, Dallas, Dover, and Denver? Because the cost of Projection of Power has DEVALUED the American Dollar.

Take a look at any financials currency markets. The US Dollar is diving to the deck looking for cover from a superior hunter. Financials are neither Liberal or Conservative. Business is Warfare.

Frack Smedley Butler! You know I really don't know if this current debt expense is worth it. I can't see that far. We are no longer talking bananas or emerging small oil ventures. This is Global Economic Dominance.

A primaro demand from Osama is that we leave Saudi Arabia, leave them naked and next to defenseless. Bah, the Madarasses are front to His Global Projections Plans. Killing him is a probably a good idea. Making his death a National Priority is even better.

We aided, trained, and set up Osama Bin Laden as the CIA trained Logistics Leader and Strategic and Financial Organizer to fight the Soviets in Afghanistan. Once re-set, it was nothing to aim his organization against us and the WTC.

We need a two fold strangulation on his monies. One, wipe out his Opium Crops, an easy USAF/Dow Chemical exercise. and Two lean on the Saudi Family to declare him a total reject.

Two is gong to be hard when we have Cheney being summoned to Riyadh. Face it. Cheney is Old Guard. Cheney goes back 30+ years, they this old family does not even want to waste the time to talk to a 7 year temp like GWB. Cheney has been there twice compared to GWB's how many?

Diplomatically Saudi Arabia feels safer talking personally to Dick Cheney than Condi or GWB. But we got to convince them that killing their Nephew will make it easier. Think about it and your extended family. Not an easy argument.

"Hey Jim, down in Jefferson County we got a bad problem with your nephew Michael. We got to kill him. Help us out to kill him dead."

Hell no you are not going to trust the newly elected DA. You will at least listening to the Old Political hand that has been there for 40 years.

So this is something new to America. How do we let VICE PRESIDENT Cheney know its okay to convince the House of Saud to let us kill their Brother's Son?

Frak another good idea Way Above My Pay Grade!

Sgt Leprechaun
06-20-07, 06:18 AM
Bonus Army: Pershing had nothing to do with 'smashing' the Bonus Army, it was General MacArthur who led Regular Army troops to clear the encampments.

Second, someone mentioned that 'those who don't have enough to eat and need clean water "want" us to come "save" them'....

Really? You know this....how again?

Chesty Puller was a critic of the way the war in Korea was being fought, yes. He was critical that we weren't DOING ENOUGH to win. He was also critical of army training methods and whatnot.

jetdawgg
06-20-07, 09:42 AM
Nothing this brave Marine may have said "later" in life tranishes in any way the extreme bravery he displayed on the battlefield nor do they portray any disloyalty to his Country or Corps. There is no reason for anyone to wonder or doubt what General Butler would have done in this war or any war, in which time period he would have served,he would do what Smedley Butler did best, fight for his country. History is full of bigger than life heros who voiced misgivings about wars in which they took part. Warriors hate war more than anything, they know the terrible costs in human suffering. However, it doesn't mean they wouldn't serve again if the nation needed them.

Totally agree with you. Ane the looneys that insist on war have very little understanding of it outside of lining their pockets and getting the sheeple to vote for them so they can line their pockets even more.

Where was the republican oversight to this madness in Iraq?

Sgt Leprechaun
06-20-07, 10:07 AM
Where is the Demo oversight? Hmmmmm???? "They" are in power right now? I don't see much being done, other than the attempts at surrender.

I don't see any sort of better plan being put forth.

jetdawgg
06-20-07, 10:34 AM
Where is the Demo oversight? Hmmmmm???? "They" are in power right now? I don't see much being done, other than the attempts at surrender.

I don't see any sort of better plan being put forth.

Walter Reed Medical Center for starters........Libby, Gonzales......

http://www.usmedicine.com/images/walterReedbldg.jpg

Sgt Leprechaun
06-20-07, 10:42 AM
Oh, yes, I feel much better now.


The Walter Reed thing didn't have anything to do with politics, and Dems don't deserve any more credit for that one than do any Republican who may have been involved.

That was an internal army screwed up mess from the 'gitgo'. Those who were fired deserved to be.

jetdawgg
06-20-07, 10:44 AM
Oh, yes, I feel much better now.


The Walter Reed thing didn't have anything to do with politics, and Dems don't deserve any more credit for that one than do any Republican who may have been involved.

That was an internal army screwed up mess from the 'gitgo'. Those who were fired deserved to be.

Think what you will...Nancy has the oversight committee in high gear

Sgt Leprechaun
06-20-07, 11:38 AM
Yes, and god help us all. However, I will withhold total judgement on that one. I still fear for

Sgt Leprechaun
06-20-07, 11:41 AM
Edited....double posting.

yellowwing
06-20-07, 11:54 AM
I told GSO months ago that the Dems would give GWB his billions to fight in Iraq, but with strings attached. These strings have come true. Attached to the Emergency Spending Bill is billions of dollars for farmers and the Katrina disaster and some outright pork. Politics is goofy.

That will get them votes to win 2008. What they will do +Jan 2009 is anyone's guess.

jetdawgg
06-20-07, 12:07 PM
I told GSO months ago that the Dems would give GWB his billions to fight in Iraq, but with strings attached. These strings have come true. Attached to the Emergency Spending Bill is billions of dollars for farmers and the Katrina disaster and some outright pork. Politics is goofy.

That will get them votes to win 2008. What they will do +Jan 2009 is anyone's guess.

Bomb Iran. The new AIPAC crew will be in the office without the burden of the Iraq war debacle

Sgt Leprechaun
06-20-07, 12:14 PM
Sure, why not?

I, for one, am not at all convinced that doing so, however, is in the best interests of the country at this point. We are pretty overextended as it is, that would probably be the tipping point. I'd be initally against that without some more (and better) documentation. Iran poses little or no threat to us at this point, other than 'on the ground' support of bad guys which is proving less than useful for the most part.

yellowwing
06-20-07, 12:26 PM
Yeah, but can they reforge our old NATO alliances to get it done? Can they convince France, Germany and Turkey that smacking Iran is in their best interests?

France will be difficult. They are bending over for their angry Islamic monirity. They let them burn cities until they got tired and bored with it without sending in heavily armed Govt troops. How can anyone count on them?

jetdawgg
06-20-07, 12:35 PM
http://www.talkbubbles.com/media/chirac_paris_riots_01.jpg





http://bushspeaks.com/img/chirac.jpg

jetdawgg
06-20-07, 01:11 PM
http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u17/jetdawgg/protect.jpg

yellowwing
06-20-07, 01:14 PM
Umm...wow Jet...I'd like to have a few hours to talk to her about that. ;)

jetdawgg
06-20-07, 01:31 PM
So you want to leave us with sloppy seconds?:D Again?

yellowwing
06-20-07, 01:37 PM
Well okay, flip a coin. Heads I win, tails you lose.

JCam0331
06-20-07, 01:53 PM
Umm...wow Jet...I'd like to have a few hours to talk to her about that. ;)

she's not hot

yellowwing
06-20-07, 01:56 PM
Well F*ck Jcam, she's hot in my current AO. :D

drumcorpssnare
06-20-07, 01:59 PM
If she has...1.) a pulse

or... 2.) is breathing

or... 3.) is NOT cold yet...

then she's good to go!:thumbup:
drumcorpssnare:usmc:

Sgt Leprechaun
06-20-07, 02:05 PM
I'll take that "not hot" and run with it.

HOLM
06-20-07, 03:44 PM
HAHAHAHAHHAHAHHA.. you guys are funny...


Jet just posted a picture advertising www.protestwarrior.com (http://www.protestwarrior.com)...


HAHAHHAHHAHAHA....


The home page of the website claims.. "Fighting the left.. and Doing it right"



It is a great collection of idiot left wing protester pictures...

I love it...

Sgt Leprechaun
06-20-07, 03:49 PM
Jet comes up with good stuff. And is a damn good debater.

Now, just cause I said that, don't think we're gonna be takin long showers into the wee hours of the morning....

HOLM
06-20-07, 03:52 PM
Jet comes up with good stuff. And is a damn good debater.
.

You would skunk his ass in a live debate... That I would Guarantee...

drumcorpssnare
06-20-07, 03:57 PM
Sgt Leprechaun- When you say the jetster is a "good" debater, would you categorize that as an "apprentice bater" or a "master bater"?:D

Just wonderin'...
drumcorpssnare:usmc:

erased
06-20-07, 04:00 PM
I guess there's no room for a journeyman-bater in this day and age....

Sgt Leprechaun
06-20-07, 04:07 PM
I had a great reply all written out then lost it. So much for being a "master" bater.

LOL.

drumcorpssnare
06-20-07, 04:07 PM
True, but at least a "journeyman-bater" is not a "jerk-off.":D
drumcorpssnare:usmc:

jetdawgg
06-20-07, 04:10 PM
If she has...1.) a pulse

or... 2.) is breathing

or... 3.) is NOT cold yet...

then she's good to go!:thumbup:
drumcorpssnare:usmc:

drums we now know that you have a lot of experience. Keep teaching the young guns

jetdawgg
06-20-07, 04:11 PM
You would skunk his ass in a live debate... That I would Guarantee...

HOLM you not on that plane yet?:D

jetdawgg
06-20-07, 04:13 PM
I had a great reply all written out then lost it. So much for being a "master" bater.

LOL.

Hey, I come from the 'Kunta Kinte' side of this nations heritage:D

http://www.syndetics.com/index.aspx?type=xw12&isbn=0385037872/SC.GIF&client=harrisp

Sgt Leprechaun
06-20-07, 04:28 PM
Hahahahaahaha. You never cease to amaze.

jetdawgg
06-20-07, 04:43 PM
Hahahahaahaha. You never cease to amaze.

Hey the USMC spares no one:D