PDA

View Full Version : This is why we are losing....



Sgt Leprechaun
06-15-07, 11:51 AM
It's even printed in the NYT, def. not an 'unbiased' paper by any means.

New York Times
June 15, 2007

The Laptop Is Mightier Than The Sword

By Owen West and Bing West

WHILE waiting to see if the Iraq surge strategy pays off, President Bush and Defense Secretary Robert Gates have shown Gen. Peter Pace, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, the door and brought in Lt. Gen. Douglas Lute as the new White House “war czar.” Well, they can shift senior leadership all they want, but unless they give our troops patrolling the streets the tools they need, our leaders are going to see this strategy fizzle.

Part of the problem was that when the military surge was announced, it became commonplace for officials to assert that political compromise, not military force, would determine the outcome of the war. This vacuous idea would startle George Washington, Abraham Lincoln, Mao Zedong and Ho Chi Minh, to mention only a few unlikely bedfellows who forged success during an insurgency.

Buying time with American lives is not a military mission. No platoon commander tells his
soldiers to go out and tread water so the politicians can talk. The goal of American soldiers is to identify and kill or capture the Shiite death squads and Sunni insurgents.

What is keeping them from doing so? The war in Iraq would be over in a week if the insurgents wore uniforms. Instead, they hide in plain sight, and Iraqi and American soldiers have no means of checking the true identity and history of anyone they stop.

This is inexcusable. In Vietnam, the mobility of the Vietcong guerrilla forces was eventually crippled by a laborious hamlet-level census completed by hand in 1968. Biometric tracking and databases have since made extraordinary advances, yet our vaunted technical experts have failed at this elementary task in Iraq.

Any time a car is stopped in the United States, the police run an immediate check. The New York Police Department tracks criminal trends by neighborhood and block in a real time database called Compstat. The Chicago police have handheld devices that send fingerprints over the airwaves and get a response in minutes. So do our border police. But in Iraq, for four years our units have been forced to concoct their own identification databases using laptops, spreadsheets and poster boards. At any one time, the military is conducting dozens of separate census operations. Houses are labeled by one unit and relabeled by the next.

Meanwhile, it is common for an Iraqi civilian to carry two or three IDs with different names. The result: Last year 400,000 coalition and Iraqi troops made fewer than 40,000 arrests; in contrast, 22,000 New York City patrolmen made more than 500,000 spot checks and 313,000 arrests.

One of us (Owen) experienced this confusion firsthand. With his unit struggling to keep track
of the insurgents in their area, it found a nonprofit company called Spirit of America that designed and sent over a handheld device, built from scratch in 30 days, to take fingerprints and photographs.

Secretary Gates and General Lute should sever the bureaucratic chains that have crippled the
military biometrics effort by calling on private companies to compete on designing handheld devices to be carried by troops, with results demanded within six weeks. The arrival of the equipment must be followed immediately by a biometric census — in which every house would be labeled, every occupant identified and most transients listed in a real-time database.

The other major defect we’ve seen in our military strategy is the consistent release of captured insurgents. Imprisonment is the dominant military weapon for quelling this insurgency. Vietnam was a shooting war; Iraq is a police arrest war. The insurgents learned years ago not to engage in firefights with American troops. American troops in Vietnam in 1968, for example, found that they killed 13 enemies for every one captured; in Iraq, one enemy is killed for every 10 captured.

Yet, according to Pentagon records, more than 85 percent of the suspected Sunni insurgents and Shiite militiamen detained are soon set free. The troops call it “catch and release.” The American and Iraqi jails now hold about 40,000 prisoners — by some estimates just half the number Saddam Hussein released from prison in the mass exodus of 2002. Texas, with a smaller population, has more than 170,000 in jail.

Part of the problem is that, in response to the shameful abuses at Abu Ghraib, the American military instituted vastly excessive civil rights protections for detainees. In our experience, it has worked this way: After an arrest, two soldiers must file affidavits, together with physical evidence and digital pictures, and then an American lawyer decides if the package is strong enough to withstand further review. About half of all detainees are released within 18 hours; the others are sent from battalion level to brigade level, where the evidence is re-examined, resulting in more releases.

Those detainees remaining are sent to a detention center where a combined board reviews the evidence again, and releases still more. After that, every six months a United States board must re-review the evidence in each case. Lastly, the detainee appears before an Iraqi judge, who in turn dismisses about half of the cases.

As for follow-up, before a detainee walks free, the American command sends notification to the battalion in the area where he was apprehended. But because many of the battalions have rotated back to the United States by this time, a new unit has to deal with the detainee.

Worse, there remains steady clamoring from both high-level Iraqi and American officials for yet another mass release (there have been several since 2003). To his credit, General David Petraeus, the top American commander in Iraq, has resisted, and the result is prison overcrowding since the surge began. Yet neither the American government, mindful of the criticism of Abu Ghraib and Guantánamo Bay, nor the Iraqi government wants to take the political heat of building more prisons.

Sorry, but we can’t let old mistakes be the cause of new ones. The scale of imprisonment must be doubled or tripled if we are serious about prevailing. There is no deterrence in Iraq today because most captured insurgents are released. We will never defeat an insurgency we allow to regenerate.

Secretary Gates and General Lute are beset by competing demands. Nonetheless, creating an identification system for our troops and hammering out an imprisonment policy proportionate to the scale of the war should be at the top of their agenda.

Owen West, a trader in New York City, served two tours in Iraq as a Marine officer. Bing West, a former assistant secretary of defense, is the author, most recently, of “No True Glory: A Front-Line Account of the Battle of Falluja.”

drumcorpssnare
06-15-07, 02:01 PM
Sgt Leprechaun- Sadly, you and I know the Democrats don't want this insurgency to be defeated. That would look too good for President Bush.
Sen. Reid, Pelosi, the Hildabeast, and the rest of those clowns want to be able to point to a Republican defeat, in a sorry attempt to make themselves look "better".
I just wish these "pin-heads" would read the works of Sayyid Mawdudi, al Banna, or Qutb. Our good friends the jihadists are so deeply influenced by these Islams, they are determined to bring the entire world under the laws of the Qur'an. Our enemies believe so completely in the hadith, that all factions of their life...social, ecenomic, political, military, are governed by religious law.
And the teachings of al Banna, etc. aren't that the jihadists could, or should bring death and destruction to the "infidel"...they must devote their lives to the destruction of their enemies, i.e. America.
...and to think, yesterday, a fellow Marine on this website said he thought I was too stupid to even breathe...
He should go even further back in time, and begin by reading Ibn Taymiyya, and Wahhab. Then we'll see who's stupid.
I at least understand the adage..."Know Your Enemy."

drumcorpssnare:usmc:

erased
06-15-07, 02:11 PM
Sgt Leprechaun- Sadly, you and I know the Democrats don't want this insurgency to be defeated. That would look too good for President Bush.

drumcorpssnare:usmc:
After that little trinket of knowledge, I stopped reading your comment. How could you possibly believe that? I don't presume to know what every democrat is thinking (and neither should you), to think that democrats wish for us to continue to suffer just because they disagree with the failed policies of a failed president is laughable. I'm almost certain that, if the insurgency was defeated today, everyone would be happy. But how much are we willing to sacrifice to defeat an insurgency that we created and continue to fuel?

Edit: I did read it now. It only reinforces my "how can you even breathe" question. If you presume to lump all muslims with a few radicals, I doubt you'll have a valid argument at any point.

Sgt Leprechaun
06-15-07, 02:12 PM
Somebody said you were 'too stupid to breathe'? Wow. Something you said must have really hit home then.

Typical of the left, it's all about the "feeeeeelings". They do things because it makes them "feeeeeeeeeeeeL" better. They think with their glands, not their brains.

As a former Intel weenie, I made a career out of studying the Soviets....(and let me tell ya, readin Lenin and Marx aint' no picnic....god what drivel...the proletariat, etc etc ad nauseum....) and have, since about 1990 or so, done the same with the Muslim/Islamic people. Going back into history, prior to when it was too politically incorrect to call a spade a spade, and re-read the Brits, Alexander, and the good ole Prophet himself, as well as al Banna. (Whom, for the life of me, I can NEVER get past without wanting to say 'The great bannana'. Yeah, gonna roast for that one for sure LOL).

Anyway...keep on keepin on....

Sgt Leprechaun
06-15-07, 02:13 PM
Actually, erased....despite protestations to the contrary, it certainly seems like political considerations have far outweighed good military tactics, knowledge, strategy, and common freakin sense.

Aren't we supposed to be 'the good guys' in this fight? The left sure doesn't act that way. Truth be told, I see no evidence showing they are interested in winning anything, except the White House in 2008, hysterical rantings aside.

What, exactly, have they done to further the war effort? Sniping? Backbiting? Hell, this started in September of 2001, long before the Iraq war.

And, quite frankly, it's what I've come to expect.

003XXMarineDAD
06-15-07, 02:19 PM
...and to think, yesterday, a fellow Marine on this website said he thought I was too stupid to even breathe...

I will let you use my air hose, us dumb ones need to stick together.:D

Sgt Leprechaun
06-15-07, 02:24 PM
HAHAHAHAHAHAHHAA.

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!
The Morlocks are gonna get me!!!!! AAAAAAAHHHHH!!!

http://www.cylon.org/images/classic/tmweb022.jpg

The REAL Harry Reid....

"Does this codpiece make me look fat?"

drumcorpssnare
06-15-07, 02:49 PM
erased- Show me please, where I said all Moslems are our enemies...???
I believe I said the extremist jihadists are our enemies.
Sounds to me like you need to "make that poppin' noise", and pull your head out of your a$$! Do a little research! Find out exactly what it is, and why, it motivates our radical enemies!
And not that it really matters to me, but I have been called "intelligent" by some who I know to be smarter than you.:banana:
drumcorpssnare:usmc:

...so there! Nyah nyah! (tongue stuck out)

Sgt Leprechaun
06-15-07, 02:56 PM
Heck, I lump 90 percent of "Muslims" (Moslem being the old term, now fallen out of general use. It too, replaced "Mohammedian"...) with the group that would like nothing more than to take over any Non Muslim state. To do otherwise, according to various sections of the Koran (using the English spelling), would go against the faith.

Perhaps you should read more of the Koran and it's teachings, and less of moveon.org and whatnot :)

It's an interesting book, to be sure.

erased
06-15-07, 03:01 PM
Actually, erased....despite protestations to the contrary, it certainly seems like political considerations have far outweighed good military tactics, knowledge, strategy, and common freakin sense.

Aren't we supposed to be 'the good guys' in this fight? The left sure doesn't act that way. Truth be told, I see no evidence showing they are interested in winning anything, except the White House in 2008, hysterical rantings aside.

What, exactly, have they done to further the war effort? Sniping? Backbiting? Hell, this started in September of 2001, long before the Iraq war.

And, quite frankly, it's what I've come to expect.
Actually, I feel it is safe to say that it started before then, but you are correct. I mean in no way to defend the democrats, but to attempt to show both sides of the aisle as corrupt bastards instead of picking teams and deafening myself to all but the hype.

@drum: I said, "If you presume...". I quess if you skip over my points and fail to comprehend syntax, you'll feel like you've got an argument.

@Leprechaun (again): I make an concious effort to avoid sites with a clear agenda or a reputation for such. It makes objective debate more than easier, but at all possible.

drumcorpssnare
06-15-07, 03:05 PM
Sgt Leprechaun- Sir, I beg to differ with your 90% estimation, simply on the opinion that most Moslems are simple peace loving people, who just wish to be left alone to live their lives.
I believe that the small, vocal, VIOLENT minority of Moslems...aided by a media that loves to sensationalize EVERYTHING...is what we're fighting.
Wouldn't you characterize the average South Vietnamese peasant in a similar vein? (Not the NVA; not the VietCong) Didn't they just want to be left alone to grow their rice, and raise their families?
Anyway, just my thoughts...
drumcorpssnare:usmc:

Sgt Leprechaun
06-15-07, 03:05 PM
Ah, but the thing is, you can't say middle of the road forever. The only thing in the middle of the road are yellow lines and dead opossums.

The Dems are merely the most guilty, to be sure. The Repubs have their own issues, and I'll grant that point. However, they, for the most part, are still the best party for winning this fight.

jetdawgg
06-15-07, 03:11 PM
Ah, but the thing is, you can't say middle of the road forever. The only thing in the middle of the road are yellow lines and dead opossums.

The Dems are merely the most guilty, to be sure. The Repubs have their own issues, and I'll grant that point. However, they, for the most part, are still the best party for winning this fight.

500BB and counting.......

Sgt Leprechaun
06-15-07, 03:12 PM
Drumcorps, while you make a valid point, comparing the SV peasant, to say, the average Muslim peasant, is not only worlds away, but religions away as well.

Also recall that while the peasant out there in the rice paddy pretty much didn't like EITHER side (the guerrillas stole his rice and made him hide weapons/arms and sometimes them...the Americans burned his rice and killed his water buffalo, and sometimes him, for 'harboring' them....) religion pretty much didn't play a central part in the whole thing.

This fight, on the other hand, is about almost nothing but religion. Part of the Muslim religion basically tells the believer that the 'infidel' is one who refuses to convert to the ways of the Prophet, and therefore can be shown no mercy.

While we threatened to 'bomb them back to the stone age', courtesy of General LeMay, in 1965, (a ridiculous arguement but a cool quote), the Muslim still lives IN the stone age, to his way of thinking, a 'crusader' is far worse than the old 'imperialist running dog lackey' (etc etc), in that the Crusaders and Saladin (and all the others from the 13 th Century) are still viable and vibrant today as they were then. The Koran is not a 'living document' like some say our Constitution (and the Bible) is, amendable to change.....far from it.

Sgt Leprechaun
06-15-07, 03:13 PM
500BB and counting.......

I'm never sure....is that "billions" or "barrels of monkeys" or what??:p

erased
06-15-07, 03:22 PM
I agree that republicans are likely the best party to pick here... just not the liberal, big-government republicans (there's an oxymoron for ya). That's why I'm so supportive of Ron Paul. Like he said himself, he's the most republican candidate in this race.

drumcorpssnare
06-15-07, 03:23 PM
Sgt Leprechaun- You're preaching to the choir buddy! I know all too well this is a religious issue. And a part of me wonders if the influx of Moslems into America and throughout Europe might just be latent "sleeper cells", just waiting to be called to action.
I, unlike 'erased', have read Hassam al Banna. I'm familiar with the "Muslim Brotherhood", and al-jihaz al-sirri, the group who assassinated Pasha.
But, 'erased' says I'm just a big dummy...
Oh well...
drumcorpssnare:usmc:

Sgt Leprechaun
06-15-07, 03:27 PM
Ron Paul, while he talks a good game, just won't be a viable candidate.

Fred Thompson, if you want to put your money on a winning horse, is the way to go.

I know D/C, but I used your question as an opener for some 'education' LOL.

erased
06-15-07, 03:28 PM
Sorry, don't have a whole lot of time to read... with all this training and fighting in Iraq and all. Besides, I don't see how reading extremist muslim garbage has much to do with anything.

erased
06-15-07, 03:29 PM
Ron Paul, while he talks a good game, just won't be a viable candidate.

Fred Thompson, if you want to put your money on a winning horse, is the way to go.

I know D/C, but I used your question as an opener for some 'education' LOL.

While I don't know Fred Thompson's politics, I don't think one should try to bet on the winning horse (if by that you mean who is likely to win the election) since we get to decide who wins.... at least in theory.

jetdawgg
06-15-07, 03:32 PM
I'm never sure....is that "billions" or "barrels of monkeys" or what??:p

BB=Billions

MM=Millions

erased
06-15-07, 03:33 PM
BB=Billions

MM=Millions

Ah... I thought it was 500 Banana Boats.

Sgt Leprechaun
06-15-07, 03:34 PM
Hmmmm....might help you understand a tad bit about your enemy.

In WWII, soldiers/sailors/Marines were bombarded with all sorts of stuff about the respective armies, and the culture, they were fighting against. I have some of those manuals.

I'd advise, in addition to the Commandants reading list, for you to not only peruse the Koran (extremist or no, failing to read it is equilvant to not learning 'Stop' in Arabic), but as many texts as you can find by Mohammedian scholars. Also, peruse "The Other side of the Mountain", which tells the story of the Afgans vs the Soviets, in an unbiased manner.

Lastly, you are telling me, in all seriousness, you have ZERO time to read?

Oh, come on. I know how much down time there is.

erased
06-15-07, 03:40 PM
You're right, I was mostly being cynical. I'm on leave anyway. :marine:

drumcorpssnare
06-15-07, 03:44 PM
erased- Point well taken re: training and fighting in Iraq. But, understanding the fundamental reasons why the jihadists are fighting us, is paramount to finding a way to either come to terms with them, or defeat them. The current extremists, and the Imams who influenced them have made it quite clear....They are not interested in "terms." They don't want to have a "dialogue." They want to kill us.
For the most part, we Americans are told the "Western viewpoint" of why these Islamic radicals hate us. I chose to research the Islamic explanation...to get the facts "right from the horses mouth", so to speak.
And I certainly don't have all the answers, but, I know it's vitally important to "know your enemy."
drumcorpssnare:usmc:

Sgt Leprechaun
06-15-07, 03:48 PM
See, I would have guessed 'bannana boats' myself. But, that's just me :) :)

Also, I mis-spoke. I believe Fred Thompson will be the best candidate, in addition to being the front runner.

OLE SARG
06-15-07, 06:48 PM
"After that little trinket of knowledge, I stopped reading your comment. How could you possibly believe that? I don't presume to know what every democrat is thinking (and neither should you), to think that democrats wish for us to continue to suffer just because they disagree with the failed policies of a failed president is laughable. I'm almost certain that, if the insurgency was defeated today, everyone would be happy. But how much are we willing to sacrifice to defeat an insurgency that we created and continue to fuel?"

It would appear you are defending the democrats and just what you stated above outlines the democrats "defeat Bush" policy!! Look at dirty harry, dickhead durbin, ms kerry, fatass kennedy, bones pelosi, - who do think they are pulling for in this situation????? It damn sure ain't us!!!!!!!!!!!! Is that a valid POINT?????????????????????

SEMPER FI,

semperfi170
06-15-07, 11:12 PM
Thomas Jefferson also studied the Koran. What better way to get to know your enemy than by reading the doctrine they use as the basis for their religion and their view of the world!

500 banana boats to feed barrels of monkies!!!?

erased
06-15-07, 11:50 PM
"After that little trinket of knowledge, I stopped reading your comment. How could you possibly believe that? I don't presume to know what every democrat is thinking (and neither should you), to think that democrats wish for us to continue to suffer just because they disagree with the failed policies of a failed president is laughable. I'm almost certain that, if the insurgency was defeated today, everyone would be happy. But how much are we willing to sacrifice to defeat an insurgency that we created and continue to fuel?"

It would appear you are defending the democrats and just what you stated above outlines the democrats "defeat Bush" policy!! Look at dirty harry, dickhead durbin, ms kerry, fatass kennedy, bones pelosi, - who do think they are pulling for in this situation????? It damn sure ain't us!!!!!!!!!!!! Is that a valid POINT?????????????????????

SEMPER FI,

I think they're pulling for themselves and the lobby groups who pay them, just like the republicans. I'm not defending the democrats here as I feel they're all greedy scumbags. Again, I feel like I'm trying to convince you that there is no real difference between the democrats and republicans here. If you're so hell-bent on playing sides, I don't think you'll see the big picture.

huey guns
06-16-07, 12:06 AM
Why doin't the 99% "good' Muslims tell the 1% "Bad" Muslim to stop with this jihad ****. Because they can't or won't

erased
06-16-07, 02:49 AM
Of course! If they just ask nicely, the maniacs who devote their entire lives to a jihad will just hang up their suicide vests and get jobs at Wal-mart.

HOLM
06-16-07, 07:35 AM
Its the Quicky Mart... 7-11, and the Shell Station, Not Walmart...


Geez.. I was thinking you were just a little slow.. Now I am sure of it...

jetdawgg
06-16-07, 09:54 AM
So they control the oil in the MENA and here in the USA?

erased
06-16-07, 02:59 PM
I consider myself above using stereotypes. Say what you will about it, but I've never seen an arab working at a gas station. Indians, sure, but that's different.

FistFu68
06-16-07, 04:04 PM
:evilgrin: NO ARAB'S WORKING IN GAS STATION'S,WHERE THE 'FUC ARE YOU,ISREAL???(LMFAO):evilgrin: :iwo:

HOLM
06-16-07, 06:00 PM
I consider myself above using stereotypes. Say what you will about it, but I've never seen an arab working at a gas station. Indians, sure, but that's different.


:p


yeah... This from the guy that ... Awe.. I don't even have to go there... Come on...


Jet stereotypes all the time... and that is not WHAT we hold against him...


You stereotype every damn day of your life.. It is a psychological matter of necessity...


You consider yourself above..... above what? :sick: Yep... typical lefty...



Damn, did I just stereotype? I was typing.. I know that much...

erased
06-16-07, 06:34 PM
:p


yeah... This from the guy that ... Awe.. I don't even have to go there... Come on...


Jet stereotypes all the time... and that is not WHAT we hold against him...


You stereotype every damn day of your life.. It is a psychological matter of necessity...


You consider yourself above..... above what? :sick: Yep... typical lefty...



Damn, did I just stereotype? I was typing.. I know that much...
I understand that everyone stereotypes -- I meant in a discusison, like this one, where facts are more important than suppositions and emotion. You seem to have missed that one though. Typical lefty? It's funny that someone who is likely more conservative than you is a lefty because you don't understand a political spectrum.

erased
06-16-07, 06:41 PM
:evilgrin: NO ARAB'S WORKING IN GAS STATION'S,WHERE THE 'FUC ARE YOU,ISREAL???(LMFAO):evilgrin: :iwo:

New York, then Utah, then North Carolina, and now California.

HOLM
06-16-07, 06:46 PM
I was just joking ya num nut...


Maybe I should have made that more clear... Take it easy..


I don't understand the political semen.. uhhh I mean spectrum..


Ya, like you want to have the discussion with me about how todays modern "Conservatives" are actually far more "liberal" than the "liberals" are..

You are the one here spitting out the same stupid talking points that we have heard ten billion times over.. I use the ones that make sense when and where I see it.. But I do try to avoid it, not brag about it...


So Yes oh brilliant one.. Lets get into a disscussion of left verses right.. and "classical" liberalism verses "modern/welfare " liberalism..

But I am sure as a dummy faux noise watcher all that I will be able to muster is the strength to just make it through some of the very enlightening garbage you can dream up..


Maybe I should just stare at the wall and watch the paint dry.. and leave the thinking to ya smart folks...

erased
06-16-07, 08:30 PM
You are the one here spitting out the same stupid talking points that we have heard ten billion times over..

Yeah... talking points... whatever you've got to tell yourself.

Here's how this is going:

You say: Bush is great. Terrorists are gonna get us unless we take over the entire world.

I tell you you're wrong and why.

You make sarcastic comments and ad hominem attacks.

HOLM
06-16-07, 09:08 PM
Yeah... Quote me saying "Bush is Great"

And no need to take over the whole world.. just a few key STRATEGIC locations and root out a little bit of extremism... That if you would listen a little more carefully to... does plan to take over the world..

At least that is what they say there goals are...

That is also of course unless that KGB a-hole don't get bored with them first...



Sarcasm is the tool of champions.. I am just here working on fine tuning this particular skill.. Done right it is highly effective and much more useful of a life skill than just ranting on and on and boring folks to death with nonsense that they have already heard twenty times over...

HOLM
06-16-07, 09:22 PM
Oh and not to forget this nonsense


When I have ever debased any of your claims here, soley by insulting you or anyone else for that matter, and NOT backed it up with fact...

If I am ever guilty of calling you a moron, or an idiot, or just plain stupid... I will always back it up with fact...

Therefore entirely disproving this ad hominem attack you have made against me by assuming that I resort to such ad hominem tactics...