A 'democracy' that tortures: figure it out for yourselves......

[jetdawgg]

Science panel criticizes harsh interrogation styles
By Scott Shane
and Mark Mazzetti
Published: Wednesday, May 30, 2007


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<!-- give first paragraph a p tag -->WASHINGTON - As the Bush administration completes secret new rules governing interrogations, a group of experts advising the intelligence agencies argues that the harsh techniques used since the 2001 terrorist attacks are outmoded, amateurish and unreliable.

The psychologists and other specialists, commissioned by the Intelligence Science Board, make the case that more than five years after the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks, the Bush administration has yet to create an elite corps of interrogators trained to glean secrets from terrorism suspects.
While billions are spent each year to upgrade satellites and other high-tech spy machinery, the experts say, interrogation methods - possibly the most important source of information on groups such as al-Qaeda - are a hodgepodge that date from the 1950s, or are modeled on old Soviet practices.


Some of the study participants argue that interrogation should be restructured using lessons from many fields, including the tricks of veteran homicide detectives, the persuasive techniques of sophisticated marketing and models from American history.

The science board critique comes as ethical concerns about harsh interrogations are being voiced by current and former government officials. The top commander in Iraq, Gen. David Petraeus, this month sent a letter to troops warning that ``expedient methods'' using force violated American values.

In a blistering lecture delivered last month, a former adviser to Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice called ``immoral'' some interrogation tactics used by the CIA and the Pentagon.

But in meetings with intelligence officials and in a 325-page initial report completed in December, the researchers have pressed a more practical critique: There is little evidence, they say, that harsh methods produce the best intelligence.

The Bush administration is nearing completion of a long-delayed executive order that will set new rules for interrogations by the CIA. The order is expected to ban the harshest techniques used in the past, including the simulated drowning tactic known as water-boarding, but to authorize some methods that go beyond those allowed in the military by the Army Field Manual.

Bush has insisted that those secret ``enhanced'' techniques are crucial, and he is far from alone. The notion that turning up pressure and pain on a prisoner will produce valuable intelligence is a staple of popular culture from the television series ``24'' to the recent Republican presidential debate, where some candidates tried to outdo one another in vowing to get tough on captured terrorists.

A 2005 Harvard study supported the selective use of ``highly coercive'' techniques.
But some of the experts involved in the interrogation review, called ``Educing Information,'' say that during World War II, German and Japanese prisoners were questioned effectively without coercion.

http://www.registerguard.com/news/2007/05/30/a2.int.intelexp.0530.p1.php?section=nation_world

[drumcorpssnare]

In today's PC world, you can't even raise your voice during an interrogation, without it being considered "cruel and unusual" punishment.

True, the Gestapo and the Japanese military did often glean information from the Allies. Without coercion? These Axis interrogators would quite often torture prisoner "A" unmercifully. Then, prisoner "B", who just witnessed the torture, would answer any and all questions. Is that what you call "without coercion"?

Torture is one of the many sad realities of war. The world needs to "get over it."

Think about it... It's okay to dismember a combatant with mortar schrapnel, a hand-grenade, or IED. You can blow your enemy's head off with a high-powered rifle. But, you can't slap a prisoner in the face, or play loud music 24/7, because that might hurt his feelings???

Get freakin' real!:evilgrin:

drumcorpssnare:usmc:

[Dave Coup]

I say whatever it takes to save American lives. If kissin' and hugs work or a good ***** slapping or rap in the nutz, do it. I can guarantee the Russians, Chinese, Koreans et al wouldn't be concerning themselves with PC BS. Please don't give me the lecture about that's what separates them from us.

SF

Dave

[10thzodiac]

I'm for torture as long is it ain't me http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/tsmileys2/04.gif

<CENTER><CENTER>http://smileys.on-my-web.com/repository/Battle/acid.gif</CENTER></CENTER>

[mark king]

i hope we do if it saves american lives.

[jetdawgg]

This kind of activity causes more hatred for the USA and continues to sink us in the eyes of the world as the other thread shows (96th place).

I don't see how it saves lives at all.

[hrscowboy]

we need to use any force we want and dont give a crap what anyone else thinks...

[10thzodiac]

In Senate testimony, Senator Jack Reed (D., R.I.) asked the military this question: "If you were shown a video of a United States Marine or an American citizen [under the] control of a foreign power, in a cell block, naked with a bag over their head, squatting with their arms uplifted for 45 minutes, would you describe that as a good interrogation technique or a violation of the Geneva Convention?" The chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, Marine General Peter Pace, answered: "I would describe it as a violation." The next question might be: Why have these and other violations of the Geneva Conventions been certified as legal when employed by the U.S.?

Pace says then that it was "absolutely the responsibility of every U.S. service member if they see inhumane treatment being conducted to intervene to stop it."

Rumsfeld said, "I don't think you mean they have an obligation to physically stop it; it's to report it."

Pace responded, "If they are physically present when inhumane treatment is taking place, sir, they have an obligation to try to stop it."

[jinelson]

Hey jettdawg!


http://i182.photobucket.com/albums/x157/usmc3537/258880.jpg

Jim :D Winky Winky

[Zulu 36]

In Senate testimony, Senator Jack Reed (D., R.I.) asked the military this question: "If you were shown a video of a United States Marine or an American citizen [under the] control of a foreign power, in a cell block, naked with a bag over their head, squatting with their arms uplifted for 45 minutes, would you describe that as a good interrogation technique or a violation of the Geneva Convention?"

Sounds like somethings that happened to me and others in boot camp. I guess I should report my DIs for violating the Laws of War (an oxymoron if ever there was one).

[hrscowboy]

Screw the Geneva Convention no other country abides to it why should the USA be the only ones.. Its time to open the Gates of Hell and let the devil dogs do the real job we are trained to do..

[bigdog43701]

cowboy,

you hit the nail square on the head. nike 'em all and let God sort 'em out.

[Dave Coup]

Here's an example of how torture might save lives, albiet a joke 'The FBI takes Jet into custody for interrogation re the location of bomb making material. Initiallly he denies any knowledge. After a good rap in the nutz he remembers that 10th has some in Chi Town and the Sears Tower is saved from from destruction.' I rest my case.

SF

Dave

[Sgt Leprechaun]

Sigh.

I am a veteran of many, many, law enforcement interrogations, including that of homicide suspects. I have to follow a certain and very detailed set of rules as to my conduct. (Vic Mackey...the Shield....AIN'T US lol).

I've also studied interrrogations of POW's, both Allied and German (a very good book, required reading, is of a Luftwaffe interregator, called "The Interregator", now long out of print), Korean, VC, NVA, etc., in an attempt to learn my 'trade' better.

The bottom line is, torture in questioning typically gets the person, if they are untrainined in the 'art' of resisting, to spill all information they have within a very short time. This technique is workable when needed, on little fish.

It is not, however, advised or reccommended, as the little fish goes back and tells all the other fish.

You get more flies with honey, than vinegar, as the saying goes.

Now, however, we have a new kind of enemy (as well as street gangster, altho realistically, AQ terrs are far smarter than street hoods), that has been trained to deal with US techniques, and practiced, very much as we do, in how to defeat them. Claiming to have been tortured is only one of their tactics. They are very, very, good at what they do. Underestimating them is done at our own peril.

Using torture, IMO, would be counterproductive. If only for the probitive media 'value' for 'their' side, alone.

The 'ticking bomb' scenario is one of those 'damned if you do' type of deals. In the short term, some type of coersion *may* work. Then again, it may not.

Having an 'absolute' in place, set down by fat suited morons sitting in an ivory tower, tho, is the absolute worst idea (along with having attorneys in the combat zones) we have ever come up with. Should there be rules and guidelines? Absolutely. Should there be accountability? Absolutely.

However, all that should be "as the situation dictates".

There are no 'right' answers here, just more questions.

[yellowwing]

The primary goal should be getting Intel from prisonors. Keeping them for years in Gitmo is only helping Al Qaeda.

[Sgt Leprechaun]

The problem with that, is, what do you do with them? We can't very well just let them go.

[yellowwing]

Three months then hang 'em I say.

[OLE SARG]

Hey Wing, I like the "Three months then hang 'em" bit. Of course, that would get dickhead durbin and the rest of his worthless buddies up in arms, but I say **** 'EM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! They are the joke!!!!!!

SEMPER FI,

[10thzodiac]

Sounds like somethings that happened to me and others in boot camp. I guess I should report my DIs for violating the Laws of War (an oxymoron if ever there was one).

Our DI's were born-hard-sadist making us bounce up and down in the squatting position with our hands behind our head until our legs were numb and tingling and felt like they were on fire and you dare not stop seeing recruits kicked unmercifully by DI's who couldn't keep bouncing.

I though I joined the ****** United Sadism & Masochists Corps by mistake http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/tsmileys2/34.gif

Quote:
<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=alt2 style="BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset">Originally Posted by 10thzodiac
In Senate testimony, Senator Jack Reed (D., R.I.) asked the military this question: "If you were shown a video of a United States Marine or an American citizen [under the] control of a foreign power, in a cell block, naked with a bag over their head, squatting with their arms uplifted for 45 minutes, would you describe that as a good interrogation technique or a violation of the Geneva Convention?"



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Sarge, note the "catch 22", foreign power :D

SF
10th

[Zulu 36]

[quote=10thzodiac]Our DI's were born-hard-sadist making us bounce up and down in the squatting position with our hands behind our head until our legs were numb and tingling and felt like they were on fire and you dare not stop seeing recruits kicked unmercifully by DI's who couldn't keep bouncing.

I though I joined the ****** United Sadism & Masochists Corps by mistake http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/tsmileys2/34.gif

Yet you keep coming on this site instead of theirs.

[OLE SARG]

I think reed is dickhead durbin's blowjob man!!!!!! He is a wacko too and no "catch 22" there!!!

SEMPER FI,

[10thzodiac]

[quote=Zulu 36]Yet you keep coming on this site instead of theirs.[Quote]

Stockholm Syndrome

[Sgt Leprechaun]

Just to bring us ALL back to reality, this is what the jihadis are teaching THEIR kids:

http://michellemalkin.com/archives/images/deathallah.jpg

How nice.

[jetdawgg]

The current implementation is not working. The ineffectiveness of it is astounding.

Another failure of policy by this admin.:usmc:

[Sgt Leprechaun]

Ah yes, and I can't WAIT to have the wonderful socialists from Hillary or Kedwards come in and "save us all".

Riiiiight.

[yellowwing]

The Legacy of GWB is going to be that he was determined to torture human beings. Its not yielding any good results for our side. Our civilised NATO allies disdain it. And we can really use thier help in sending 50,000 boots on the ground in Iraq.

Close Gitmo and get 50,000 Germans in Al Anbar. It not a bad deal at all.

[10thzodiac]

Marine Corporals know more than Texas Zoomies

[Sgt Leprechaun]

I think now that the Germans have changed leadership, we'll get some support from that end. However, I don't believe we'll see 50,000. Be lucky if it's a thousand, tops.

[drumcorpssnare]

I disagree with keeping the prisoners for three months, then hanging them....

We should hang them for three months, then keep them!:D

drumcorpssnare:usmc:

[redneck13]

I would like to know for sure if there is real proof that these prisoner's are being tortured in any way? Like one said, there's more question's than solutions. I too was a cop, and we dared not do what protocol called for. I also think that Yelloww:iwo: ing is right. The more we keep these people, the more they get P****at us. Are there anymore prisoner's coming to the facility? And where did these there now come from? Right or wrong, we are still American's, and we can't lower ourselves to their tactic's. As we would be just like them. And maybe that's what would upset these terrorist. Lately, one committed suicide, and how many more will? Every time this may happen, it's bound to infuriate their brother's.
The primary goal should be getting Intel from prisonors. Keeping them for years in Gitmo is only helping Al Qaeda.

[HOLM]

I think we have have a couple of these kinds of incidents...

The film disappeared into government archives, said Israel, and the report was sent to 3rd Army commander Gen. George S. Patton, who "called it a bunch of junk, burned all the papers on his desk and said get back to work.

Right after we carry out Drums plan...



That would make the little bastards talk.... Or not.. At that point what would it matter any frign way...

[hrscowboy]

bringum to Semper Fi Ranch here in Kansas i have all kinds of Oak trees and plenty of good rope and plenty of good horses..

[drumcorpssnare]

cowboy- can we get ya to braid some pig intestines into a noose, for the "neck-tie party"?:banana:

drumcorpssnare:usmc:

[hrscowboy]

we can throw them in the hog lot and watch the hogs eatum..

[drumcorpssnare]

NICE!!!:thumbup:
drumcorpssnare:usmc:

[Zulu 36]

I'm not sure where in the definition of "democracy" is any prohibition of torture .

[hrscowboy]

it used to be called the geneva convention but have you ever seen any other country abide by it except the USA?

[Dave Coup]

Drum and Cowboy ifn you throw those scumbags to the hogs you'll have PETA after you. We'll just have to re educate them and make them promise never to do bad things again and then they can go home and we'll all live happily ever after. Gimme a frickin' break

SF

Dave

[jetdawgg]

I would like to know for sure if there is real proof that these prisoner's are being tortured in any way? Like one said, there's more question's than solutions. I too was a cop, and we dared not do what protocol called for. I also think that Yelloww:iwo: ing is right. The more we keep these people, the more they get P****at us. Are there anymore prisoner's coming to the facility? And where did these there now come from? Right or wrong, we are still American's, and we can't lower ourselves to their tactic's. As we would be just like them. And maybe that's what would upset these terrorist. Lately, one committed suicide, and how many more will? Every time this may happen, it's bound to infuriate their brother's.

Abu Gharib.....

[bigdog43701]

jet...interesting question for you...how many pow's have we murdered? however rag head terrorists in iraq CAPTURED three us army troops, disarmed them and then murdered them...hell yea i'm for torture if it saves American lives and it's good for pay back.

[Dave Coup]

Sorry Jet, I don't consider what those idiots at Abu Gharib did torture, That was a bunch of unproffesional goofs showing off for each other. While disgusting, didn't come close to what terrrorists do to people daily. Even though the media and the left jumped all over it, I think most people realize it
was just what I said above.

SF

Dave

[Sgt Leprechaun]

I agree with both of you. While damaging to 'our' image, the only reason I think it was done was because of bored troops and **** poor leadership. They paid the price, rightfully so.

However, notice that it is only the left, and their ilk, who continue to bring it up. Over and over and over again. Why? Because it's the only thing they got.

[drumcorpssnare]

Here's a thought....You are captured and held by the enemy. Your captor, for some strange reason, offers you a choice.

"I can treat you like the Americans treated their prisoners at Abu Gharib.....or......I can treat you the way I want to treat you....."

Given that choice, I'll go with the Abu Gharib treatment...all day; every day.

How about you?

drumcorpssnare:usmc:

[OLE SARG]

That's too hard a question for the bleeding heart liberals!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I would like to see their definition of "torture". Probably watching a Walt Disney movie!!!!!

SEMPER FI,

[drumcorpssnare]

OLE SARGE- Yeah, torture for Rosie would be having to munch a muff that didn't smell like rotten carp!:D
drumcorpssnare:usmc:

[Sgt Leprechaun]

Torture for me is having to watch the MSM or any demo political commercial

[bootlace15]

Why is Sunday the only day people are nice,then theres Chrismas,Easter and Thanksgiving,don't forget anniversaries and birthdays,and when you get lucky,Now for a Marine thats torture,cause I aint nice on any day.........Screw torture,kill the basterds. Then Reup........

bootlace15 out

[drumcorpssnare]

bootlace15- Ooorah! We think alike! Quick story...

My great-grandfather was a Marine who fought in the Phillipine Insurrection, in 1900. His only Marine Corps story passed on through his son, etc.
A Filipino bandit was being questioned, and was not co-operating. Gallons of water were forced down his throat. He was held down, flat on his back...and a Filipino soldier jumped off a chair, landing both feet on the prisoner's gut.
The other prisoners started singing like little birds.
drumcorpssnare:usmc:

[Sgt Leprechaun]

I have actually used things I read in various books about interrogations during my 'talks' with bad guys (including, believe it or not..comic books LOL). <br />
<br />
I have shown 'fake' fingerprints 'If you...

[drumcorpssnare]

Sgt. Leprechaun- About 40 yrs ago, in my home town of Oswego, NY, there was a brutal murder of a 3 yr. old little girl. Police didn't have a clue for "however" long (?).
One day, a neighbor kid, 13 or so, got picked up for shoplifting. He was sitting at the Police station, and out of nowhere, the Police Cheif asked this kid, "Yeah, I suppose you killed that little girl too...didn't ya?"
The kid, Chris Bivens (developmentally slow) answered, "How did you know it was me?" Then proceeded to share details only the killer could have known.

Strange world, huh?
drumcorpssnare:usmc:

[Sgt Leprechaun]

It does work out that way sometimes. Very odd as well. I was working a string of what I thought was unrelated burglaries, and popped a jv for setting a neighbors newspaper on fire. (No...