PDA

View Full Version : Extraordinary document from the Corps' war in Vietnam



fontman
05-20-07, 10:31 AM
Extraordinary document from the Corps' war in Vietnam
WarChronicle ^ | May 19, 2007 | David Allender

On January 18, 1969, Colonel William White, USMC, concluded an investigation into the possibility of charging Corporal Alvin L. Blackburn with the murder of 13 captured enemy soldiers in Vietnam.

The colonel's decision was to recommend the corporal for the Medal of Honor. (What happened next is unknown to me.)

Two of the documents are below. Both reveal an extraordinary story of heroism in the war in Vietnam.

Warning: The language is rough.

___________________

18 Jan 1969

From: Colonel William W. WHITE 031 562/9910 USMC

To: Commanding General, III Marine Amphibious Force

Subj: Investigation into the circumstances of the demise of 13 North Vietnamese Army (Regular) soldiers of 22 December 1968

Ref: (a) JAG Manual, par. 5017

Encl:
(1) Statement of Corporal Alvin L. BLACKBURN Jr. 23 13 039/0311 USMC
(2) Statement of Lance Corporal William E. MARCOTT 24 13 049/0351 USMC
(3) Statement of Private Steve A. KEARNS 24 84 625/0351 USMC

1. As required by reference (a), an investigation was conducted to determine the feasibility of bringing charges of first degree murder, 13 separate counts, against Corporal Alvin L. Blackburn Jr.

2. Follow-up patrols confirm the count of 86 enemy dead and five friendlies at coordinates 82514316. Ten enemy dead were confirmed at 70132921. The ten confirmed at 70132921 were in addition to two decapitated bodies and thirteen enemy forces; hands tied, blind-folded and gagged. Each one had one shot hole in the temple area. Calibre unknown.

3. Friendly casualties consisted of five dead, two wounded, and the miracle (explanation to follow). Lance Corporal MARCOTT, one gunshot wound to left thigh, numerous cuts and scratches. Private KEARNS, numerous shrapnel wounds in back, buttocks and legs in addition to scratches and cuts. Both men suffered from exposure and malnutrition. The team leader, Corporal BLACKBURN, had no visual wounds other than scratches, cuts, and abrasions over the entire body area. Medical examination revealed major concussions and severe internal bleeding; exhaustion, malnutrition and was suffering from shock. Medical records indicate a prior weight of 147 pounds after weight of 102 pounds. That this marine was alive is a miracle.

4. Statements from the soldiers who first came into contact with the Marines (soldiers were from sub unit of 1st Air Cav) validate the initial condition of the Marines. Corporal BLACKBURN was carrying Private KEARNS over his shoulder and had Lance Corporal MARCOTT on a stretcher made of two branches, belts and jackets. KEARNS and MARCOTT were not coherent. Corporal BLACKBURN was, at first impression, coherent; however, it became apparent that he was in some state of shock and. exhaustion. Extracts of the aforementioned statements on the condition of BLACKBURN are indicative: "piece of ground meat" "walking dead" "zombie".

5. The facts in this case are self-explanatory. (Refer enclosures) It is the undersigned opinion that to bring charges against this Marine would destroy what the Marine Corps and this Country stands for. It is further Recommended that Corporal BLACKBURN be awarded the Congressional Medal of Honor for his actions on 21, 22, 23, 24, and 25 December 1968.

Respectfully submitted,

W. W. WHITE
Colonel
United States Marine Corps

___________________

http://warchronicle.com/MilitaryJustice/officialdocuments/Dec221968.htm

I, Steve A. KEARNS, make the following statement on my own free will fully aware of the consequences of false or incomplete statements:

I was a member of a seven man recon team termed DAGGER II. Our mission was to parachute somewhere forward of friendly positions and set up an ambush. We were to be heli-lifted out. The date was 21 December 1968. My team Leader was Cpl A. L. BLACKBURN 23 13 039 and had been my leader for six other missions.

We jumped on the right coordinates but dumb *ss Duke landed in a tree. Brutus (investigator's comment - "Brutus" was an alias by which the accused was identified by his counterparts) had to climb up and cut him down and then he set us in. This was to have been my last mission before skying to the world and I was really shaking my sh*t. I was set in across from Brutus with Jack, Duke and John flowing left; and Mark, Spook, and Bill flowing right.

Brutus told us a whole f*cking gook company was coming instead of a patrol but, we couldn't call for an extract because the enemy was too close. Brutus told us to lay quiet and wait till he moved. I had a 12 gauge and two .38s but I wish I had a f*cking tank.

They must've been only an inch away before he stood up and he had the barrel of the BAR in this gook's guts and cut 'em in half. For about five minutes there was nothing but lead, sh*t and guts in the air. Bill and Spook were backing and blowing gooners left and right. Mark was firing bloopers from about ten feet and blew his own *ss to the deck several times. Duke was lying with a BAR and was cutting loose about b*lls high. I don't remember John or Jack. Brutus had a BAR screaming from his thigh and throwing grenades like candy at a f*cking parade. I thought maybe Brutus had cracked his marbles but he just calmly waded through the blood and sh*t shouting orders for us and melting his BAR.

I didn't see it, but Spook bought it and by that time Brutus had made it to where Spook and Bill was. The BAR was actually on fire so Brutus picked up Spook's 16 gauge and with his own K-Bar began kicking *ss and cutting throats. We didn't stick around to count but I figure he must've got 40 or 50 by himself. About 2 dozen of 'em threw guns down but Bill just kept blasting then before Brutus knocked his *ss down. There was only three of us, me, Brutus and Bill. I finished off the wounded and since the radio was busted and we knew reinforcements would be coming for the gooners we got out of there fast.

We marched for 13 or 14 hours before we stopped. It was my watch, I guess about 4 or 5 in the morning when they hit us. It only lasted a minute or so and all I did was keep shooting. I was so f*cking tired I could care less. Bill was hollering that his b*lls were blown off and two of the POWs had tried to run but the traps had blown their heads off. Somewhere, I don't remember when, I caught shrapnel in my back *ss and legs and the pain started coming on when Brutus got to me from Bill. He kept telling Bill that he would make a cute fagaot if he would get false teeth and a beard. I distinctly remember that cause Bill was b*tching that his b*lls were gone and Brutus was trying to make him feel better and for some reason I felt like laughing. I know it sounds crazy but I was laying face down about five feet from them and Brutus was holding Bill's b*lls and was calling him all sorts of dumb f*cking names trying to convince him that they were still attached. I guess I passed out because the next thing was Brutus standing over me trying to stop my bleeding.

It was hard to tell whose blood was whose since he was bleeding all over. Neither Bill nor I could walk and we still had 13 POWs so Brutus did the only thing he could. He had a choice, take the POWs out or us. I don't know what I would have done. Brutus just looked at Bill, then me, and I was really scared, more scared than when the whole company of gooks came at us, because he had blood everywhere and was shaking and his eyes. God, man, his eyes were white. I'm not sh*tting you white. Like a robot he walked up to each one and said "God forgive me" or something like that and shot each one in the head.

Then he loaded 2 shotguns, strapped them to each leg. He took off his clothes and ours to reduce weight. All he had was a belt a .38, 2 shotguns, 2 K-Bars and some ammo. He had used all of our first aid ****. He made a litter out of branches and belts and he alternated between carry one of us and dragging the other. We hadn't eaten for several days and I was flashing off and on but every time I woke up we were still moving. One of the last things I remember before waking up in the cross was staring at his back. I was lying face down on this stretcher thing, and seeing the dried blood caked over the straps on his shoulders.

Without b*ll****ting, I don't think I could have done it. I owe him my life and so does Bill. If they burn him I'll be the first in line to waste the b*stards that try it...and that's no threat, that's a blood oath.

THIS STATEMENT IS TRUE ACCORDING TO MY MEMORY. IT CONSISTS OF TWO PAGES.

STEVE A. KEARNS
PRIVATE
UNITED STATES MARINE CORPS

davblay
05-20-07, 12:37 PM
This Marine has all that the Corps stands for in his heart and mind!!! Semper Fi Cpl and thanks for a job well done!

Thanks Fontman, good post! :thumbup:

maverickmarine
05-20-07, 12:50 PM
Yeah, it also shows just how thin that line is between getting charged with a crime and being considered a hero.

Oustanding job Marine!!!!

DROD
05-20-07, 01:08 PM
Great post! Some people in this world are true heroes.

Semper FI !

bigdog43701
05-20-07, 02:42 PM
OHHHHHHHHH-RAHHHHHHHHH Get some, RECON

davblay
05-20-07, 04:46 PM
Yeah, it also shows just how thin that line is between getting charged with a crime and being considered a hero.

Oustanding job Marine!!!!

AMEN!

10thzodiac
05-20-07, 07:38 PM
Give me a ****** break, a Recon team that parachuted into a ambush with BAR's [Browning Automatic Rifle] the end of 1968 ???

1960, we had to double-time from the butts at Camp Mathews back to our tents with BAR's at long port (part of the way). Besides being too ****** heavy, they worked like sh!t they were so old and decrepit.

The sh!t is getting deep on this one !

BAR's were replaced with full auto M-14's (selector) in the early sixties not late sixties. Some were given to Vietnamese troops in early sixties, but much to heavy for dinks to lug around.

Paratroopers [Recon] jumping with #40 BAR's (rifle, bi-pod and bandoleer) ???

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hEo8yRiDU0w&mode=related&search=

yellowwing
05-20-07, 07:46 PM
I'll do some digging and try to get some first hand accounts from BAR and RVN era Recon Marines.

HOLM
05-20-07, 07:49 PM
Oh no... This is not going to turn into one of those "Were F 102's used in nam" debates is it?

OLE SARG
05-20-07, 07:54 PM
Old and decrepit key words - I don't know what BAR's you were firing 10th but the ones I got to use were wicked as hell and shot REAL GOOD!!!!!!!! As far as jumping with BAR's, I guess it was the BAR'S or light .30 caliber machineguns!!

SEMPER FI,

10thzodiac
05-20-07, 08:03 PM
I'll do some digging and try to get some first hand accounts from BAR and RVN era Recon Marines.

The .30 Cal Carbine 5 lbs. was the answer to the 30.06 Springfield M-1 Garand 10 lbs. for paratroopers not 40lbs. BAR's http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/tsmileys2/34.gif

The paratrooper version of the .30 cal carbine had a folding metal stock

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/63/M1A1_Carabine.jpg/250px-M1A1_Carabine.jpg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:M1A1_Carabine.jpg)
http://en.wikipedia.org/skins-1.5/common/images/magnify-clip.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:M1A1_Carabine.jpg)
M1A1 Carbine. Paratrooper model with folding buttstock.

greensideout
05-20-07, 08:41 PM
The BAR only weighed about 20 lbs. Not a big deal. The ammo was the heavy weight, and it took two to carry the standard issue.

10thzodiac
05-20-07, 08:45 PM
Old and decrepit key words - I don't know what BAR's you were firing 10th but the ones I got to use were wicked as hell and shot REAL GOOD!!!!!!!! As far as jumping with BAR's, I guess it was the BAR'S or light .30 caliber machineguns!!

SEMPER FI,

When I was in the Gitmo barber shop (Missile Crisis) a young 1st lieutenant that was getting his side walls polished had a briefcase handcuffed to his wrist and was guarded by a corporal with a grease gun. So I know the Corps still has grease guns.

Grease guns and carbines have thirty not twenty round magazines like BAR's.

Some dumb ass Murtha type must of did the TO for the ambush team, 20 round BAR's -vs- 30 round grease guns and carbines http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/tsmileys2/02.gif

If we're talking crew served weapons now [Quote] "light .30 caliber machine guns" [Un-quote], Since I'm an arty Marine, I would of jumped with a light 105 mm Howitzer. Those canister rounds make for good ambushes too, 1,100 titanium balls coming at you can ruin your day http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/tsmileys2/11.gif

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/m102-s.jpg (http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/m102.jpg)

yellowwing
05-20-07, 08:51 PM
I did find that the BAR was used by the South Vietnamese. Maybe the Recon Team thought that was what they needed for the mission, so they 'borrowed' one.

10thzodiac
05-20-07, 08:57 PM
Oh no... This is not going to turn into one of those "Were F 102's used in nam" debates is it?

No, I just though it funny anybody taking this privates statement seriously. Even as greensideout pointed out the BAR is very heavy ammo and all.

Now if this private said grease gun, carbine, M-16 ('68 M-14's already replaced by M-16's generally) I wouldn't of said anything.

This one is a little after your time HOLM, but I'm sure you wouldn't jump (parachute) with a 40 lbs BAR get-up, or would you http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/tsmileys2/06.gif

HOLM
05-20-07, 09:05 PM
Hey 10z... I find this one interesting... But I am not an expert on when and how weapons were issued in Nam......

When you are speaking for yourself instead of quoting others 10z I find your posts very enjoyable to read..


And you meant... Before.. not after my time.. I am 6'5" around 210 lbs.. and half crazy.. 40 lbs wouldn't be any big deal... Even with all the other gear. But I am with you on this one 10z.. give me the 105 mm Howitzer and ammo.. I could think of a lot of weapons I would rather have with me in that situation... But I'll let ya'll figure out whether or not they would have had BAR's

10thzodiac
05-20-07, 09:06 PM
I did find that the BAR was used by the South Vietnamese. Maybe the Recon Team thought that was what they needed for the mission, so they 'borrowed' one.

Please don't take this wrong, if you ever had to field a BAR, magazines and all, that would be the last ****** gun you'd want to take on a Recon mission especially if you were jumping (parachuting) into a jungle ambush. I thought the gun sucked ! Especially compared to the fully auto M-14 !

If anybody wants to believe they jumped with BAR's that's their prerogative, I just know ****** better.

yellowwing
05-20-07, 09:13 PM
Just good S-2 to have different sources of information. :nerd:

greensideout
05-20-07, 09:23 PM
The BAR was a good one, 10thZ!
20 lbs of bark!
I would rather have that in a firefight then the 60, 14, 30 cal Carbine or the Greese Gun. I have used them all.

10thzodiac
05-20-07, 09:35 PM
Hey 10z... I find this one interesting... But I am not an expert on when and how weapons were issued in Nam......

When we went to VN August '64 we still had M-14's, no BAR's !

When you are speaking for yourself instead of quoting others 10z I find your posts very enjoyable to read..

When I quote other's, it is two fold: 1) I agree. 2) the source.

When I speak for myself it is a combination of the above two and/or what I've experienced.

And you meant... Before.. not after my time.. <(thank you) I am 6'5" around 210 lbs.. and half crazy.. 40 lbs wouldn't be any big deal... Even with all the other gear. But I am with you on this one 10z.. give me the 105 mm Howitzer and ammo.. I could think of a lot of weapons I would rather have with me in that situation... But I'll let ya'll figure out whether or not they would have had BAR's

I'm 6'2, #230, definitely crazy-lazy like a fox. In other-words I find the easiest way to do something or not doing it at all. I was AWOL so many times, if they ever caught me I'd still be doing the brig step. They had a hard time making me keep my helmet on, it was too heavy. When we made wet landings they could never figure out why I was dry and they were wet. I even took my name off the Battalion Communication Roster; I kept it up to date for Two different Comm O's. I didn't want them sending me anywhere I didn't want to go. My last con & pros were high 4's too, go figure http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/tsmileys2/04.gif

Zulu 36
05-20-07, 09:37 PM
Why couldn't Marine Recon teams jump with BARs? Army paratroopers did it at least five or six times alone in WWII.

Yes, I have carried and shot a BAR, so I know the gun and accouterments are on the heavy side. If paras can jump with an M-60 machine gun and ammo, they could jump a BAR too.

Although I was a sport parachutist, not military qual, it is still my opinion a BAR and ammo could have been easily jumped if properly rigged.

I have also carried and shot a full-auto M-14. I'd rather have the BAR. The M-14 is too light for 7.62mm full auto and it over-heats too fast. Very hard to hold even with that cute little handgrip and heavy wooden stock. The BAR was designed for the workload it got, although the foregrips did sometimes catch fire when heavily used. The full auto M-14 wouldn't have even made it that far before it burst into flame.

All kinds of guns were available in Vietnam. In 1972 my unit (VMA-211) did still have .45 cal M3 grease guns assigned. They were commonly carried by the payroll guards on payday, rarely otherwise. They were TO&E for the pilots in a ground role. 10Z is right, they had 30-round mags. I believe M3 subguns were still TO&E for tankers at that time period.

The pilots flew with .38 cal revolvers (S&W Model 10s w/4" lightweight barrels). They also had .38 cal tracer ammo for them.

My unit also had some .12 gauge Winchester trench shotguns w/brass cased ammo.

This was just an A-4 flying squadron. If we had a few "exotics" I'm sure a recon unit had even more available.

10thzodiac
05-20-07, 09:49 PM
The BAR was a good one, 10thZ!
20 lbs of bark!
I would rather have that in a firefight then the 60, 14, 30 cal Carbine or the Greese Gun. I have used them all.

I'm the exact opposite, the BAR was too big, heavy and cumbersome. I remember my bro was the automatic rifleman in my squad (arty HQ platoon). I watched him run with the BAR, bi-pod and those 12 X 20 30.06 Mags that was the most sorriest sight one would ever want to see not mentioning the pain on his face http://www.leatherneck.com/forums/images/icons/icon13.gif

greensideout
05-20-07, 09:49 PM
We were more "exotic" ZULU-36---HMM-362. ;)

greensideout
05-20-07, 09:55 PM
I'm the exact opposite, the BAR was too big, heavy and cumbersome. I remember my bro was the automatic rifleman in my squad (arty HQ platoon). I watched him run with the BAR, bi-pod and those 12 X 20 30.06 Mags that was the most sorriest sight one would ever want to see not mentioning the pain on his face http://www.leatherneck.com/forums/images/icons/icon13.gif


!0th, 20 lbs is not a "hump" for a Marine!

10thzodiac
05-20-07, 10:03 PM
!0th, 20 lbs is not a "hump" for a Marine!

Depends how many of the little people are chasing you and how close they are ! I'll take the grease gun http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/tsmileys2/04.gif

SF

10th

greensideout
05-20-07, 10:26 PM
Depends how many of the little people are chasing you and how close they are ! I'll take the grease gun http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/tsmileys2/04.gif

SF

10th


The Greasegun was "my" pick in an evaluation in Nam. We had many others, the Swedish-K etc. Hummm, they listened to this boy from Missouri?

FistFu68
05-20-07, 10:54 PM
:evilgrin: SOMETHING ELSE,A'BOUT THIS MISSION;SMELL'S KIND'A FOUL ALSO.NO MENTION OF UNIT.THERE WERE NO PARACHUTE INSERTION'S,BY MARINES;IN VIETNAM!!!DON'T COME UP WITH SOME CHIT,THAT IT WAS A COVERT;MISSION.JUST ANOTHER SEA STORY??? OH,I NEVER ONCE SAW A 16 GAUGE SHOTGUN;IN COUNTRY EITHER!!!

10thzodiac
05-20-07, 10:57 PM
:evilgrin: SOMETHING ELSE,A'BOUT THIS MISSION;SMELL'S KIND'A FOUL ALSO.NO MENTION OF UNIT.THERE WERE NO PARACHUTE INSERTION'S,BY MARINES;IN VIETNAM!!!DON'T COME UP WITH SOME CHIT,THAT IT WAS A COVERT;MISSION.JUST ANOTHER SEA STORY???:evilgrin:

You tell 'em FISTFU68, you walked the walk :thumbup:

CHOPPER7199
05-20-07, 11:12 PM
Interesting subject that B.A.R. just happened to had carried that for my time with the fleet, took charge of it as soon as I hit I-3-8 2nd Mar. Div. in early 59. Carried it also as a fireteam leader with the tops permission. I was a nasty with that thing. Got chased off the pop ups at i.t.r as I wiped them out, also was t.a.d. for a couple of weeks to the range with it to show some newbees. The mags sucked, the springs were bad, learn to tape mags together for faster loading, made the assistant husle ha ha. Them were the days.

DougRagan
05-21-07, 03:44 AM
Did Murtha accuse this Marine of cold-blooded murder yet?

10thzodiac
05-21-07, 01:01 PM
Did Murtha accuse this Marine of cold-blooded murder yet?

http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/tsmileys2/27.gif

Zulu 36
05-21-07, 03:01 PM
:evilgrin: SOMETHING ELSE,A'BOUT THIS MISSION;SMELL'S KIND'A FOUL ALSO.NO MENTION OF UNIT.THERE WERE NO PARACHUTE INSERTION'S,BY MARINES;IN VIETNAM!!!DON'T COME UP WITH SOME CHIT,THAT IT WAS A COVERT;MISSION.JUST ANOTHER SEA STORY??? OH,I NEVER ONCE SAW A 16 GAUGE SHOTGUN;IN COUNTRY EITHER!!!

I served with an HM1, who was a recon corpsman, and jumped in more than once. He was badly wounded on one and I read part of his records, not just his word. He was on instructor staff of Field Med School at Lejuene when I met him.

FistFu68
05-21-07, 03:21 PM
:evilgrin: THE ONLY JUMPING RECON MADE,WAS OUTTA THE 'BAC OF A 46;INTO ABOUT 20 FT.OF ELEPHANT GRASS!!! FORCE RECON,WAS A DIFFERENT STORY,I WAS ATTACHED TO THE 26TH.MARINES AS A PARACHUTIST;WAS CALLED ON TO DO JUMP'S OUTTA THE BACK OF AN OV.10 BRONCO.FOR ALL THE BRASS TO WATCH,AT THE 1ST.MAR.DIV.GRINDER SIDE OF THE AIRSTRIP;IN DANANG.IT'S ALL BULLCHIT,NO COMBAT JUMP'S;THE 173RD.FOUND OUT WHY?:usmc: :iwo:

capmarine
05-21-07, 03:38 PM
warzone C if a remember correctly was not that bad of a jump and not really much happened-if that is what you are talking about?the area was prepped way before hand?

10thzodiac
05-21-07, 08:54 PM
Uh...

Colonel William W. WHITE 031 562/9910 USMC,

There were no Marine air parachute insertions between 1967 and 1969. Furthermore there were only three Marine jumps during the entire Vietnam War.

The first June 14, 1966 (successful)

The second September 15, 1967 (very un-successful)

The third November 17, 1969 (successful)

Maybe the jump December 1968 was a "TOP SECRET MISSION" with 20lbs. BAR's & 16 ga. shotguns and not declassified yet http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/tsmileys2/29.gif

Source: http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/news/2004/08/mil-040810-mcn01.htm

10thzodiac
05-22-07, 12:19 PM
For what it's worth, I just got through talking to a WW II paratrooper who was in the army three years and 81 years old. He was born in Texas (Texican) and has lived in Chicago 61 years.

I told him about this thread and he couldn't recall ever making jumps with BAR's.

10thzodiac
05-23-07, 12:30 AM
I served with an HM1, who was a recon corpsman, and jumped in more than once. He was badly wounded on one and I read part of his records, not just his word. He was on instructor staff of Field Med School at Lejuene when I met him.

We had a L/Cpl that worked in the office in HQ-2-12 and he put himself in for pro-pay and had something going with a Gunny at dispersing. When I was the duty NCO, this Gunny after hours kept calling for this L/Cpl ???

My point is, record books can and are altered. When I left the 3rd Mar Div they let me take my SRB with me to report to the 2nd Mar Div. If I knew then what I know now, I'd now look like a Russian General dripping with medals http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/tsmileys2/11.gif

BTW, that L/Cpl was quite ingenious, he was selling Volkswagens to the Okinawans (he didn't have any) the Okinawans beat the fuk out of him. One day he got caught robbing a soldier and his girlfriend with a bayonet (the 12th shared the same base with the 173rd).

I remember our CO (also my Comm O) having a fit right after this L/Cpl was court marshaled with a BCD. He asked the Captain before going to the brig if he could deposit a $50,000.00 (1963) cashiers check that he just inherited from his grandfather estate.

This ******* also had my permission to marry a Japanese girl in his wall locker that he was typing on the side for me. I had a hard time getting it back.

There were only three jumps in Nam, sounds like your corpsman was related to our creative office poguge that put himself in for jump-pay.

BTW, most former Marines that I bump into on the street were door gunners and snipers.

HOLM
05-23-07, 09:00 AM
My point is, record books can and are altered. When I left the 3rd Mar Div they let me take my SRB with me to report to the 2nd Mar Div. If I knew then what I know now, I'd now look like a Russian General dripping with medals


So that is what happened to my DD214...:bunny: You bas tard...:banana:



I received a packet in the mail last night from 2008 Elloit rd. Quantico VA

It contained my release from active duty to revserve status... (form.. dd214) But I still don't have one for my separtion from reserve duty..:devious:

Sgt Leprechaun
05-23-07, 03:47 PM
I love these kinda stories. They are sooooo cool.

However.....

There is no reference for "William H White", or at least, a modern reference, using search engines. Nor does "Colonel William White" show up. I DID find a "Major William White", however, he's an Iwo Jima vet. Might he be the same guy? Doubtful.

The link has the 'actual' PDF file. If you know ANYthing about Admin, the first thing to look for is the "SSIC", or Standard Subject Identification Code, located in the upper right corner. Since this is purported to be a JAGMAN investigation, I would think the SSIC code would be in the 5800 series. Either 5810, 5811, or 5830. It is none of those. Instead, it is coded "5514". The 5500 series of SSIC codes relate to security (and were used by us Intel geeks frequently). 5514, in SSIC, is the code for filing for "CENSORSHIP".

Here is a good link for SSIC codes:
http://www.uscg.mil/ccs/cit/cim/ssic/ssic.htm

I seriously doubt that a full bird Colonel typed this. I also doubt that some LCpl snuffy/clerk in the Adjutant shop typed it and gave it to him for signature. This would have been proofread and looked at several times, by at least, a SNCO, and probably the Adjutant. That SSIC code wouldn't have slipped by them. No S-1 or Adjutant worth their salt would have let that fly.

Continuing...there are other errors. In the original document, at the end, the wording mentions "(Refer Enclosures)". This is incorrect wording for a Naval letter, per the Naval Correspondence Manual. Anytime you "refer enclosures), you would properly state "Refer to Enclosure 1" or something along those lines.

Also, I seriously doubt the Colonel, his adjutant, the SNCO, and the snuffie, would ALL not note that it's the Medal of Honor, not "the Congressional Medal of Honor".

And, the Colonel lists his MOS as "9910". That's an unrestricted officer. Odd, but not wholly unusual. Also, note that his signature line does NOT indicate a unit. Nor is this done on letterhead.

In the statements the Marines made.....there is a signature line for the Colonel, in the Cpl's statement, but not on the other two. The Colonel has no reason to sign any of em.

I could go on, here...but I think I've proved my point.

While an entertaining read to be sure, they are not, in my opinion, the genuine article.

I wish they were...but they aren't, I'm afraid.

10thzodiac
05-23-07, 04:19 PM
So that is what happened to my DD214...:bunny: You bas tard...



I received a packet in the mail last night from 2008 Elloit rd. Quantico VA

It contained my release from active duty to revserve status... (form.. dd214) But I still don't have one for my separtion from reserve duty..:devious:

I'd demand my reserve status, I love the smell of Napalm in the morning :D

dt9615
05-23-07, 04:29 PM
Does it really matter what weapons someone jumps with?

10thzodiac
05-23-07, 04:47 PM
Does it really matter what weapons someone jumps with?

As long as you bring one :D http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2xpm47uKyWQ

Turn your speakers on !

redneck13
05-25-07, 02:48 PM
There was only one Recon unit that jumped from chopper's in Nam....that was "Delta" recon...Or "Force" recon. My former C.O. was a Plt. Leader with Force Recon, "D" Co., 3rd Recon Bn. Dong-Ha, North of Quang-tri...(I don't know if there was a "Force" Recon unit with 1st, 2nd, Recon Bn.'s) He didn't make any jumps as he wasn't there very long, until he came to us Peon Recon'r's. The only time, which I know about that B.A.R.'s were used in Nam was....the South Vietnamese Army were given them....To jump into the jungle with the weight of one of them, with the heavy ammo, and they didn't shoot very well because they were worn out, would be very hazardous. My Lt. who came from "Force" recon, told me, they only would jump with light weaponary, and a B.A.R. would not be considered "light weaponary." Of course he made jumps Stateside, as preparation for "combat jumps" in Nam. I was curious about Force Recon, as they were scuba trained, and other stuff we regular Recon Marine's weren't. So I asked a lot of question's and got straight forward answer's from him. He was killed later, so there's no way I could contact him to give exact answer's. And maybe Yellow wing is right....if they killed some VC they could've gotten a B.A.R. from them, as they did steal our weapon's, or South Vietnamese Army. As far as this being real?, I would have to question, about the B.A.R. used by jumper's. SF

FistFu68
05-25-07, 04:43 PM
:evilgrin:NOW WE ARE GETTING SOMEWHERE,CPL.10Z,SGT.L.,&S/SGT.REDNECK;
SOME MARINES THAT KNOW WHAT THE FRIGGING REAL DEAL IS!!!!!S/F THAT:usmc: :iwo:

Firebrand38
06-19-07, 03:11 PM
I just had a FOIA request come back from the National Personnel Records Center and there is NO record of a William W. White even being in the Marine Corps at that time.

Sgt Leprechaun
06-20-07, 07:16 AM
Not a surprise, really.

yellowwing
06-20-07, 12:08 PM
It was very entertaining though! Eight Marines wiping out an NVA company, wow! It was funky but gave me hard on. :D

Too bad Schwarzenegger has a day job now. Ya' think Bruce Willis can pull this off?

Sgt Leprechaun
06-20-07, 12:20 PM
I agree with ya there. Someone sure went to alot of time and trouble to gin that whole thing up.

10thzodiac
06-20-07, 12:54 PM
After I was released from active service 30 June 1965.

Somewhere in the early part of 1966 I was working at Chicago's O'Hare International Airport. Besides seeing the guys coming home from Vietnam in coffins occasionally, I'd see and/or talk to Marines traveling through.

Once I saw this Lance Corporal just dripping with medals without a hash-mark and I just knew I had to ask him how he got 'em all. He told me he was returning home after being treated at Great Lakes Naval hospital for wounds. He said his Force Recon team ran head on into to a enemy company in a rain storm. His team leader a Lieutenant was killed trying to rescue a fallen Marine. If I remember right, he said only he and one other survived.

Another time I saw this very young, big good looking, dark haired Marine walking thought the airport with whom I assume was his parents, one on either side. He was a Private with one medal, a Purple Heart and walking on crutches missing a leg. I wanted to talk to him, but didn't.

On another job '68 I was talking to a former Marine who told me he wounded by a grenade. I was with a co-worker and I guess I was standing on the side you couldn't see the scars, because my co-worker said he was really scared on the other side.

There was a former army S/Sgt there at that job that was a tanker. He said, he wanted to make a career out of the army in tanks, but the anti-tank weaponry changed his mind and he got out.

ggyoung
06-20-07, 01:53 PM
10Z-----------I had the M-14 with the full auto switch in 1964-66. When aboard the Prinston the gunny sent me down to the ships with2 mags for the M-14 and to see Chief so and so. I gave him the 2 mags and 20miks later I had 1 mag that would hold 42 rounds. What I'm saying is anything and everything is posaball. Remember our Bn. arumers could and did lots of things to make things better. Also our armerys had lots of different weapons. While at 29 Palms we fired the M-3 grease guns all the time as they were our TOA weapons. I thought they were no good.

10thzodiac
06-20-07, 07:57 PM
10Z-----------I had the M-14 with the full auto switch in 1964-66. When aboard the Prinston the gunny sent me down to the ships with2 mags for the M-14 and to see Chief so and so. I gave him the 2 mags and 20miks later I had 1 mag that would hold 42 rounds. What I'm saying is anything and everything is posaball. Remember our Bn. arumers could and did lots of things to make things better. Also our armerys had lots of different weapons. While at 29 Palms we fired the M-3 grease guns all the time as they were our TOA weapons. I thought they were no good.

You just reminded me, I have some high capacity M-14 mags. I forgot if they are thirty or forty, I think thirty.

I noticed that on high capacity mags most don't work well fully loaded.

My Japanese brother-in-law in Japan, hunts wild boar up in the mountains on his Island with a M-1 Carbine. At first he had only 5 round mags, I had a hard time finding Japanese legal 10 rounders for him, so I sent him some of my 15 round mags. I asked him if he wanted 30's. He said no. Last week I sent him his two 10 rounders.

You wouldn't believe how many wild boars he shoots. In 1999 he shot 50 just before visiting me in Illinois.

He never takes me hunting, he's afraid I'll get bit by a habu (cobra)

http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s143/10thzodiac/Oneof50wildboarsToraichishotwitha.jpg

yellowwing
06-21-07, 09:39 AM
Mmmm...that's some pig! Nothing is finer than swine, slow cooked and tender! Yum.

ggyoung
06-21-07, 10:22 AM
Notice the right hand driving on jeep or what ever it is.

ggyoung
06-21-07, 10:24 AM
10Z-This mag worked great. Never a problem

Firebrand38
06-22-07, 08:26 AM
Just got another response to a FOIA request from the National Personnel Records Center and there is no record for a Marine named William E. Marcott with that service number as well.........

Firebrand38
07-10-07, 07:47 PM
My latest FOIA request came back from NPRC. There was indeed a Marine named Alvin Blackburn with III MAF. He was assigned on 4 Dec 68 to H&S Co as an Admin Man. In Sep 69 he was assigned Camp Pendleton to Base Personnel. He served from 4 Aug 1966 to 30 Nov 1977 when he was discharged at Camp Pendleton as a WO2. He was working in Personnel there as well.

Add that to the fact that there was no Colonel White and none of the KIA's names are on the Wall and there you have it.

USMCmailman
07-10-07, 08:05 PM
O.K.------------But it's one hell of a story !!!!!!!:scared:

1LONGSHOT
07-12-07, 02:54 PM
A BAR is 18.5 lbs not 40lbs 10th zodiac get you fact's right.

Sgt Leprechaun
07-13-07, 11:40 AM
My latest FOIA request came back from NPRC. There was indeed a Marine named Alvin Blackburn with III MAF. He was assigned on 4 Dec 68 to H&S Co as an Admin Man. In Sep 69 he was assigned Camp Pendleton to Base Personnel. He served from 4 Aug 1966 to 30 Nov 1977 when he was discharged at Camp Pendleton as a WO2. He was working in Personnel there as well.

Add that to the fact that there was no Colonel White and none of the KIA's names are on the Wall and there you have it.

Well done, sir!

OLE SARG
07-13-07, 12:47 PM
That must have been an overweight BAR, OR it was on steroids!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I might add, the BAR I shot DID NOT WEIGH 40 pounds!!!!!!!!!!

SEMPER FI,

jetdawgg
07-13-07, 01:17 PM
Uh...

Colonel William W. WHITE 031 562/9910 USMC,

There were no Marine air parachute insertions between 1967 and 1969. Furthermore there were only three Marine jumps during the entire Vietnam War.

The first June 14, 1966 (successful)

The second September 15, 1967 (very un-successful)

The third November 17, 1969 (successful)

Maybe the jump December 1968 was a "TOP SECRET MISSION" with 20lbs. BAR's & 16 ga. shotguns and not declassified yet http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/tsmileys2/29.gif

Source: http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/news/2004/08/mil-040810-mcn01.htm
1

ggyoung
07-13-07, 04:18 PM
I want to know what is this "16 gage" Every Marine shotgun I seen was "12 gage" that enclouds a few old Winchester 97's. I just happen to have a old "97" in 16 gage.

MigMike
09-03-08, 10:37 PM
This "Recon" story was posted on our 3rd Force Recon site. This is a closed site, open only to 3rd Force members. The story is a total fabrication, but a hoot. There was one combat jump in RVN, by 1st Force.It was a disaster and never repeated. These guys were definately not on that jump. BARs were never used by either company. Real Recon stories are horrific enough without these cartoonish efforts. I am more amused than insulted. Mike Mc 3rd Force 67-68

rponcy
09-10-08, 12:25 PM
I ran 42 patrols with 3rd Force Recon from 2/67 to 3/68 in the I Corps area and not once were we ever inserted by parachute. None of the teams in 3rd Force ever carried BAR's, carbines, or grease guns during my tour, and I'm sure the same was true for Recon Battalion and 1st Force. This sounds like a wanna be story to me....

montana
09-10-08, 04:53 PM
i packed a M14 with 8 mags. and lots of loose rounds could fire full auto....and put all 20 in a car door at 50 yards....armory lost my M14 when i went on r&r they tried to give me a bar...not sure how much they weigh but can tell you they are alought heavyer then a M14,...told then nope...M14 or nothing...they found it a cupple days later...got a little more skate time out of it.....oh and im 5'7" and weighed 125 at the time....had one Lt that carried a grease gun...it jamed all the time if i remember rite and he finaly went to packing a M16

be safe

ROBAMP88
09-18-08, 10:20 PM
Fontman,

I was in the Corps for 13 years and I was a SSgt when I left. I am now a Police Officer in my home town. I was in some training this week when my Instructor gave me a copy of this report. I read the report along with some of my fellow Police Officers, a few of which were service members. It is a very motivating story and shows what Marines are made of. The Instructor asked me if I had ever read the story and if I knew if it was accurate. I told him I hadn't read the report before and did not know of it's truth or fiction. Could you tell me if this really happened and what the end result was. Cpl Blackburn deserved the CMH! I'm not sure if he got it but he deserved it if the story is true.

Semper Fi,
Rob

Sgt Leprechaun
09-20-08, 10:34 AM
No, sorry, it's a complete and total fabrication.

Please fill out a profile and welcome aboard!~

SgtThrasher
09-20-08, 11:14 AM
I wish the story were true instead of hyperbole.:evilgrin:

Sgt Leprechaun
09-20-08, 11:49 AM
Real MOH stories are, quite literally, more harrowing, more interesting, and, better than that, TRUE.

I read my son and daughter MOH citations as bedtime stories.

ggyoung
09-20-08, 08:50 PM
Sgt. Lep====Sgt. Thrasher and I know this one S/Sgt. who not only read his kids Marine combat stories he also had his young kids doing close order drill, all the pt he could dish out.

Sgt Leprechaun
09-21-08, 08:11 AM
LOL. I'm not that "ate up" :)

BacSi
05-10-09, 11:28 AM
This has to be flat out the funniest "true war story" on the net. What is really funny is that anyone, any Marine or Doc, could read it. Actually read what is being said and then end up believing this truly tall tale. Not one single thing in this write up is or even would be true.

This write up was not done by wannabes. It had to be done by real VN Reconners. No one could get every single thing wrong except a real pro. I mean an amature would have gotten a few things correct just by accident.

But a few comments on some of the comments I read on this thread.

In 1965 and 66 we did have BAR's and grease guns, and carbines. At times these weapons were carried on Recon patrols. I never carried the BAR but I did see it carried a few times. When you saw Big Ski or one of the others break it out you knew that was not a good sign. You knew it could be a really rough mission.


But no one would have taken a BAR on a jump.

I carried at times the other two. But then I could carry what I wanted.

I doubt there is any HM1 that made two combat jumps in VN. I doubt there was any Marine or Doc that made two of them.

Complete and total BS this write up is. But well done by a real pro.

BacSi

Rocky C
05-10-09, 04:34 PM
Yeah, it also shows just how thin that line is between getting charged with a crime and being considered a hero.

Oustanding job Marine!!!!

I'll Semper Fi That !!! :usmc:

ps. Great Post Fontman

vannc75
05-29-09, 04:18 PM
So it is VERY evident this is all a farse ... but does anyone know why/how it started? Fact is they are actually reading this and passing it as truth in the Marine Corps. I just graduated IULC and this story was read during a warriors night dinner. After a little research I quickly realized it was fake and asked one of our instructors about it. With a coy smile he told me to do a little more searching and then e-mail him with what I found - specifically about the name Blackburn and the origin of the story. Anyone know more about this Seems a little odd to me - especially since our Corps has more than our fair share of true heroics without having to make up any.

Semper Fi

Lynn2
05-30-09, 08:27 AM
So it is VERY evident this is all a farse ... Fact is they are actually reading this and passing it as truth in the Marine Corps.

Semper Fi

Not sure both of those statements can be true.


I have run across this write up before. Yes at some level it is funny. An "opposite world" where left is now right and up is now down. Everything that would be done is done in the opposite way with the opposite results.


But taking this as true as so many seem to do is an insult. Its an insult to every reconner we sent out that never came back and every Team we sent out that never came back.

For some to think that the war of the VN reconner was dozens and dozens of NVA throwing down their weapons and giving up makes a mockery of what actually happened.

An insult to what actually happened on the ground both for the reconners and those tough focks we fought.

Sad, truly sad that so many think it was this way.

Lynn2
05-30-09, 11:34 AM
"I just graduated IULC and this story was read during a warriors night dinner"

Vannc75, exactly how was this read at Warrior Night? As a joke, as a quiz for the students to see if it was real, or as the read deal?


And look I am sorry I have just read all the comments on the thread. I did not realize that so many experienced Marines would look at this and take it seriously.

I just have no idea how anyone could spend 30 days, not 30 years, in the Corps and not see this as a flaming joke.

Do people really think it was this way? Do they really think that the first thing a small Recon Team would do when sighting an overwhelming enemy force would be to turn their radio off?

This is not about 12 gage vs 16 gage BAR's vs carbines or whether a certain person can be found as having been in the Marines or not.


This is about common sense and a tiny understanding of what a real mission and a real fire fight for a Recon team is like.

Nothing like the write up that is for sure.

DocGreek
05-30-09, 11:57 AM
Lynn, and Van...PLEASE, when you get a chance...completely fill out your profiles....THANK YOU!!.....DOC

brian0369
09-13-09, 10:09 AM
This discussion (the Blackburn story) just came up with some of my Marines. As soon as I heard the conversation, I knew who they were talking about, as I first saw those documents as a young Corporal, and several times again over the years.

But, here is the Paul Harvey on it. A few years ago when I was stationed at Quantico I decided to get the full skinny and researched all the names mentioned in the documents (not too hard, since the full names, service numbers, and other information are on the documents). Not surprisingly, except for Blackburn, none of the Marines named ever existed, or at least didn't serve as Marines, including Colonel White. Alvin Blackburn, as posted by a member earlier, was an admin Marine who spent a short time in Vietnam at the Regt. and MAF level. He was discharged as an admin warrant officer in the 70's, after making unauthorized travel to the states while on leave from Okinawa, and getting in some civilian trouble while AWOL. That's a pretty interesting story too, though the outcome wasn't stated in his record, but I'm afraid I'd be violating the Privacy Act conditions of the access I had at the time to give details like that. Anyway, that's the real story. After finding out these facts, my own opinion as to the origin of this story is that Blackburn probably wrote this himself as a pure joke or for some sick self-aggrandizing joke, probably after his time in Vietnam, and it just got passed around, or was found and grew legs like so many sea stories do.

Heck, I once listened to a Marine tell a detailed story about an accident with an M2 firing off the side of an LSD, with every technical detail correct except the time frame, ship, unit and the Marines' names. How would I be the judge of that as the recipient of the story? Because it actually had happened to 3 Marines from my company, word for word as the Corporal told it. He thought it was such a good sea story that he appropriated for his own in perfect detail when he heard it and made it his own, only to be called out on it four years and a few thousand miles later. So, doesn't surprise me a bit how even fantastic stories like Blackburn somehow keep going.

Semper Fi!:marine:

Lynn2
10-06-09, 08:57 AM
Hard to believe that an admin guy without first hand experience could have done this by himself. As already stated, he got 100% of everything wrong. And I think you would have to know what teams would have really done in order to get 100% of everything wrong.

Just by accident you would think that he would have gotten one or two things correct.

My guess is that he had help. From someone with real time experience.

Someone with a clue as to how the real NVA would have fought and how a real USMC Recon team would have fought.

Throwing up their arms and giving up to a much smaller team being a good example of how the NVA did not fight.

USMC Recon
03-08-10, 07:06 PM
I just joined this forum after a friend called my attention to this particular thread. After reading it, I'm wondering if this is someone's idea of a joke.

I was in 1st Recon is Vietnam in 67-68 and I never heard of anything like this, either while in country or at Recon reunions after. Something this "heroic" would have gotten around the Recon Associations and it would have been talked about. I know of only one Recon combat parachute drop and that was overnight 2-3 Sep 1967. On that mission, Gunny Walter Webb led Recon Team Club Car on a parachute insert into Happy Valley (my good friend, HM-2 Mike Laporte is still unaccounted for from that mission. Even on that one, it was done just to say it had been done. There were 3-4 other Recon teams already in the valley acting as pathfinders for the drop.

In late 1968, there were no BARs in Recon (or in 1967 for that matter). We didn't even have 30-06 ammo in the Marine supply chain. Only the Vietnamese used M-1s and occasionally a BAR. They didn't like it because it was so big, heavy, and hard for them to shoot.

I'm afraid that, without seeing any official and certified after action reports, casualty reports, medical logs, flight logs from the drop aircraft, or authenticated legal documents about this incident, I find it to be questionable.

Just my thoughts..............

USMC Recon
03-08-10, 07:33 PM
I forgot to add.......there is just so much wrong with what is laid out in the original "documents" that, even had I not been in Recon in Vietnam through the summer of 1968 and knew what Recon did and didn't do, I would have found the entire chain of events as related to be laughable.

Rather than go into detail on every single thing that doesn't fit, suffice it to say that nothing in it passes the sniff test.

montana
03-08-10, 10:58 PM
but they did have 30-06 ammo...in 1969 our company CO had a 30 call with the CP...and after i returned from my stay on the hospital ship repose...they had lost track of my M14...i was offerd a BAR...after hefting the thing i turned the offer down ...a cupple days later they found my 14

CH53MetalMan
03-08-10, 11:24 PM
USMC Recon

Can you recall what aircraft was used for the parachute drop you mentioned?

OV-10 Bronco perhaps?

FistFu68
03-08-10, 11:33 PM
:evilgrin: Don't give a Fuc what Weapons Ammo or What Ev,this Sea Story write up is a Fucing LIE :mad: :iwo:

USMC Recon
03-09-10, 06:21 AM
Hello Montana. How long were you a patient on the USS Repose? I'm wondering which unit you served in in 1969. Were you in Recon?

As I mentioned, by 1968, the only only 30-06 weapons I'm aware of in Vietnam were in the hands of the Vietnamese. Oops....forgot; the Australians had them as well...sorry. The Army had used them on their early helicopter gunships several years earlier as had Marine advisors but by 68, they were gone from the Marine TO&E.

Perhaps your CO got the old Browning M-1919 machine-gun from the ARVN. In 1st Recon, we were allowed only one M-14 per team and the only way we were able to justify that was because, at that time, no rifle-grenade launching cartridge was available to us for the M-16. We almost never used the rifle-grenades but it was a good excuse to be alble to carry an M-14.

Semper fi......

USMC Recon
03-09-10, 06:23 AM
USMC Recon

Can you recall what aircraft was used for the parachute drop you mentioned?

OV-10 Bronco perhaps?


No. The OV-10A Bronco didn't show up in Nam until at least late 1968. RT ClubCar jumped from an Army C-7 Caribou.

USMC Recon
03-09-10, 06:25 AM
:evilgrin: Don't give a Fuc what Weapons Ammo or What Ev,this Sea Story write up is a Fucing LIE :mad: :iwo:

Bottom line is that I believe you are spot-on with your assessment of the subject sea story.

Semper fi.....

Lynn2
03-17-10, 10:36 AM
Bottom line is that I believe you are spot-on with your assessment of the subject sea story.

Semper fi.....


The question is not is this true? It is not.

The question is not could this be true? It could not.

The question is how could any Marine or FMF Doc read this and think otherwise?

It just begs the question as to basic common sense and a little understanding of Marine history or Recon history or Vietnam history.

I realize not everyone was a VN reconner but you should not have to be to spot this funny BS at a first glance.

There was a USMC recon jump in 1966. It happened at the same time as the Howard Patrol.

In 1966 we did have a BAR or two that could be taken out on special recon missions. It rarely was. But it could have been. But not on any jump that is for sure.

HM2 Mike Laporte? Its sad how this Reconner has been treated by the Corps.

Even the suggestion that someone would wait and then vol for a jump in the deep bush of ICorps just so he could go awol is so beyond stupid that it reeks of an organization covering its azz for a jump that should have never taken place.

Don't those idiots realize he could have just walked out the front gate and hitched a ride if he wanted to go over the hill? Idiots.

CH53MetalMan
03-17-10, 05:00 PM
No. The OV-10A Bronco didn't show up in Nam until at least late 1968. RT ClubCar jumped from an Army C-7 Caribou.

Thank You

USMC Recon
03-17-10, 06:14 PM
Response to Lynn @1, post #88

Couldn't seem to quote your post and still post my reply for some reason so my reply is here:
TO Lynn1, post 88: I really didn't come to this thread to get in an argument about the veracity of the initial reporting. This thread was called to my attention by a buddy and I came to check it out. The entire thing has been totally debunked by several Marines, former Marines, and retired Marines who belong to an e-mail net with me....I don't remember any jumps in 1966 other than practice ones. I would be interested in finding out more details about those. Could you provide some more specifics? Which team was it that made the jump during the fight on Nui Vu? Do you remember who the team leader was? .....As I said in an earlier post, the only BARs I remember in the area belonged to the Vietnamese that were assigned to us. I don't know why we would bother with them when we had the much more effective M-60. However, my Platoon Commander carried a grease gun in the early days so I never say never; just that I don't remember any. ......As for Doc Laporte....I do remember well as I knew him and he was a friend. We played cards occasionally when we were out of the field. ..l..I'm not sure what you mean by; "treated by the Corps." For weeks after his loss, even during the heavy ops tempo of Operation SWIFT, Recon patrols searched both sides of Happy Valley and halfway up to Ba Na for him. The Marine Corps reported his status as missing in action, which is what he was. They later issued a presumptive (legal) finding of death but he remains unaccounted for and his remains continue to be searched for. As a matter of fact, I have, on occasion, talked on the phone with his step-mother over the years. .....As I recall, a small group of Reconners, including one Corpsman who did not get along with Doc Laporte, began spreading the UA/defector rumors and those rumors did spread to other recon teams and to other units. However, those rumors were the work of that group of individuals. I would be cautious about extending culpability to "The Corps" for those actions. .....If Doc Laporte wanted to go UA/defect, he did not have to wait for a paradrop to do it. He could have slipped out of the lager site on any number of patrols. He didn't even have to do that. All he had to do was go down to Dog patch and disappear. <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>

Lynn2
03-17-10, 09:11 PM
Response to Lynn @1, post #88

Couldn't seem to quote your post and still post my reply for some reason so my reply is here:
TO Lynn1, post 88: I really didn't come to this thread to get in an argument about the veracity of the initial reporting. This thread was called to my attention by a buddy and I came to check it out. The entire thing has been totally debunked by several Marines, former Marines, and retired Marines who belong to an e-mail net with me....I don't remember any jumps in 1966 other than practice ones. I would be interested in finding out more details about those. Could you provide some more specifics? Which team was it that made the jump during the fight on Nui Vu? Do you remember who the team leader was? .....As I said in an earlier post, the only BARs I remember in the area belonged to the Vietnamese that were assigned to us. I don't know why we would bother with them when we had the much more effective M-60. However, my Platoon Commander carried a grease gun in the early days so I never say never; just that I don't remember any. ......As for Doc Laporte....I do remember well as I knew him and he was a friend. We played cards occasionally when we were out of the field. ..l..I'm not sure what you mean by; "treated by the Corps." For weeks after his loss, even during the heavy ops tempo of Operation SWIFT, Recon patrols searched both sides of Happy Valley and halfway up to Ba Na for him. The Marine Corps reported his status as missing in action, which is what he was. They later issued a presumptive (legal) finding of death but he remains unaccounted for and his remains continue to be searched for. As a matter of fact, I have, on occasion, talked on the phone with his step-mother over the years. .....As I recall, a small group of Reconners, including one Corpsman who did not get along with Doc Laporte, began spreading the UA/defector rumors and those rumors did spread to other recon teams and to other units. However, those rumors were the work of that group of individuals. I would be cautious about extending culpability to "The Corps" for those actions. .....If Doc Laporte wanted to go UA/defect, he did not have to wait for a paradrop to do it. He could have slipped out of the lager site on any number of patrols. He didn't even have to do that. All he had to do was go down to Dog patch and disappear. <o>:p></o>:p>

http://www.vietnam.ttu.edu/star/images/1201/1201013194.pdf

The June 1966 jump is covered in several books dealing with recon and VN. A quick google will most likely bring up a lot on it.

But if you scroll down about 1/3 of the way down the page in the link you will see the official word on that jump. Its listed as a #5.

As far as Doc LaPorte? I have seen several discussion as far as the aftermath of his jump. I am blanking here but the book "Inside Force Recon" may be the most detailed account.(I could be off on the name of the book)

And maybe saying "the Corps" was to strong. But in that book they talked about USMC officials going thru his mail and such. The book alleged that it was officials who had made this suggestion about him. Not team mates.

Although your account makes the most sense. In fact it makes more sense than anything I had heard or read about this sad situation.

Yep we had a lot of old ww2 weapons--- a grease gun, carbine, that BAR.. And a Thompson submachinegun. We had them. But it was only the carbine that was used frequently. That one I carried quite a bit.

When I said that anyone should know this "award-murder" write up is a joke it has nothing to do with weapons carried or jumps never made.

It has to do with several dozens of hardcore NVA throwing down their weapons and surrendering to a small team of 7 or so reconners.

Reconners who before engaging turned their radio off.

No one in their right mind could believe that silly stuff.

Take Care

Lynn2
03-18-10, 08:35 AM
Just did a little google myself. This below from a discussion of airborne in modern times. Not just USMC. Clearly this write up is off somewhat since it does not mention a missing Doc:

"The first was on 14 June 1966 during the Vietnam War. A small team of recon Marines made the low altitude night jump determined to quietly insert and set up an observation point within enemy territory. The team made it to the ground with only one small injury and was later extracted. The jump was hailed as a success (http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ops/airborne4.htm#) by most involved and the combat jump was accepted as a viable means of placing Marines in hostile areas. The second, on Sept. 5, 1967, almost killed the combat airdrop idea for the Marine Corps. A group of nine Marines jumped into the night sky for a supposed 700-foot elevation drop. Because of mechanical malfunctions with the plane, the Marines unknowingly jumped from around 1500 to 2000 feet. The team was blown off course by unexpected winds and landed separately in dense jungles far from their intended target. They suffered numerous wounded, three of which had to be medically evacuated, and some of the team barely escaped capture by the enemy. The failure of this mission halted the process for two years until Nov. 17, 1969, when the last jump occurred and the three Vietnam jumps marked the end of the Marine Corps combat jump history."

USMC Recon
03-18-10, 09:49 AM
http://www.vietnam.ttu.edu/star/images/1201/1201013194.pdf

The June 1966 jump is covered in several books dealing with recon and VN. A quick google will most likely bring up a lot on it.

But if you scroll down about 1/3 of the way down the page in the link you will see the official word on that jump. Its listed as a #5.

As far as Doc LaPorte? I have seen several discussion as far as the aftermath of his jump. I am blanking here but the book "Inside Force Recon" may be the most detailed account.(I could be off on the name of the book)

And maybe saying "the Corps" was to strong. But in that book they talked about USMC officials going thru his mail and such. The book alleged that it was officials who had made this suggestion about him. Not team mates.

Although your account makes the most sense. In fact it makes more sense than anything I had heard or read about this sad situation.

Yep we had a lot of old ww2 weapons--- a grease gun, carbine, that BAR.. And a Thompson submachinegun. We had them. But it was only the carbine that was used frequently. That one I carried quite a bit.

When I said that anyone should know this "award-murder" write up is a joke it has nothing to do with weapons carried or jumps never made.

It has to do with several dozens of hardcore NVA throwing down their weapons and surrendering to a small team of 7 or so reconners.

Reconners who before engaging turned their radio off.

No one in their right mind could believe that silly stuff.

Take Care

I agree that no one in their right mind would believe the stuff portrayed in that set of messages.

I stand corrected on the 1966 jump. I do not remember it.

As for the Laporte issue, I know Paul Young (though not well). One of the officers why surveyed Laporte's gear after he went missing is an individual I know well. We still disagree on what happened to Laporte. However, any references to official Marine corps sanction of the Laporte UA/defection story are not true. That story was pushed by the small group I mentioned in my earlier post and, unfortunately, picked up and further spread by other individuals without first-hand knowledge. It was never an official Marine or Navy stance.

Semper fi; Bill

Lynn2
03-18-10, 10:54 AM
I agree that no one in their right mind would believe the stuff portrayed in that set of messages.

I stand corrected on the 1966 jump. I do not remember it.

As for the Laporte issue, I know Paul Young (though not well). One of the officers why surveyed Laporte's gear after he went missing is an individual I know well. We still disagree on what happened to Laporte. However, any references to official Marine corps sanction of the Laporte UA/defection story are not true. That story was pushed by the small group I mentioned in my earlier post and, unfortunately, picked up and further spread by other individuals without first-hand knowledge. It was never an official Marine or Navy stance.

Semper fi; Bill

Bill, its sad that those unfounded and to me truly wacky rumors about Doc L made it into so much print. And never once have I read (although I am not saying I could not have missed it) a defense of him and debunking of those inane stories.

All you had to do was spend a day or two in Happy or Elephant Valley or Charlie Ridge to know that no one was going awol in a jump out there.

Truly sad that for so many casual readers that will be what they know about Doc.

Glad you are trying to set things straight

Now I could be off here. But my fading memory sort of tells me that the Howard Patrol may have been extended in the field because of that jump in June 1966.

Acting as a radio relay maybe?

Of course you know what that got them for their troubles.

Take Care Brother

FistFu68
03-18-10, 11:16 AM
:evilgrin: Any you 2 Recons know one of my Former Co's in the 'Nam A Mustanger then a S/SGT.with A Co.3rd Recon.1st.Plt. R.E Hoover Sr.?In 66...:confused: :iwo:

Lynn2
03-18-10, 11:55 AM
:evilgrin: Any you 2 Recons know one of my Former Co's in the 'Nam A Mustanger then a S/SGT.with A Co.3rd Recon.1st.Plt. R.E Hoover Sr.?In 66...:confused: :iwo:

I sure do. Ron Hoover of Hoovers Hunters fame.

He was with us or I should say we were with him on my last set of missions in the spring and summer of 1966 when we went north to Quang Tri to stir up some trouble i.e. Hastings.

What do I remember? Sadly not much.

But sadly I can now say that for far to much of my tour. I know that George Neville and the late Andy Anderson were some of his old hands at the time.

Like virtually every officer in the company at the time he was well respected and good in the field.

Friggin Hastings

fmoyer
03-18-10, 01:29 PM
Just a couple of things from an old grunt, BAR 19.6 lbs with bi-pod 20 rd mags 1 lb never seen a .16 ga in service and the Bar was a very fine weopon and a joy to fire. Never was a door gunner or a sniper or recon so dont know how much I really know. Those who knew stated the grease gun was fine to carry as long as you didn't have to use it and then the wanted a real firearm don't know never used one. Story was a good read but anyone could see thru it as it was just that a story.

Lynn2
03-19-10, 09:32 AM
"I agree that no one in their right mind would believe the stuff portrayed in that set of messages."


I guess it depends on how you define "right mind".

I have seen this document posted now at least 3 different times on various Marine forums. It always starts out as a serious post by some Marine who wonders if a MOH was given or asking why was no MOH given.

Then a gaggle of other Marines come on to say how proud they are to have worn the same uniform as these heroes and what a thin line it is between murder and a MOH and how PC the Corps is.

Then a few Semper Fi's

Then somewhere between the 6th post and the end of the 2nd page some Marine or Doc will show up and proclaim this all bullsnot and untrue.

Followed by a discussion of 38's vs 45's. Or jumping with a BAR. Or what weapons a recon team might actually carry.

Then those demanding a MOH stop posting and the discussion becomes---- what funny BS this all is for the next 5-8 pages.

And on the modf I read where a 30 year Marine vet E-9 type was pleading for help in getting a MOH awarded. And arguing with posters once the BS flag was raised.

Every time I see this played out I think-----something is seriously wrong. And I mean seriously.

I just cannot shake my frustration and anger at Marines who must think we in ICorps were fighting the Keystone Cops. Civilians and wannabe HS kids I can understand.

But actual Marines?

Rant Off

FistFu68
03-19-10, 09:59 AM
:evilgrin: Captain Hoover R.E. Is still alive We exchange Christmas Cards every year and I visted him a couple years back He Resides in Penn.now.But is not doing too Good Physically.But I pray for the Gung Ho Bastard,S/F GodSpeed Marine...Jack :beer: :iwo:

Lynn2
03-19-10, 10:07 AM
:evilgrin: Captain Hoover R.E. Is still alive We exchange Christmas Cards every year and I visted him a couple years back He Resides in Penn.now.But is not doing too Good Physically.But I pray for the Gung Ho Bastard,S/F GodSpeed Marine...Jack :beer: :iwo:

FF68, sorry the Capt is not doing that well but glad he is still with us.

It saddens me greatly to see how many of our guys from that BN have died since they returned home or are dying now.

If you have not come across it I strongly suggest you get a copy of Larry Vetters book "Never Without Heroes---The 3rd Recon BN in VN" (paperback)

There is a fair amount of coverage of Hoovers time and more than a little on him as well.

FistFu68
03-19-10, 10:14 AM
:evilgrin: Will do Marine Thanks I Fought my Azz off with Him on Meade River in last two months of '68 S/F GodSpeed OORAH :beer: :thumbup:

Class of 65
06-15-10, 04:26 PM
:evilgrin:I just had to get in on this one! I was in C-1-Recon, 7th Marines, in 1965. Medivac out in 1966. I had also been in on the Gulf of Tonkin "Incident" in Aug 64. Sat on a ship and watch the sea gulls and junk floating in the water. Saw a few jets get launched and a few that had holes in them when they came back. (And no jumped ) Yawn.
1) We (Batt. Recon) were not yet joined with 1st Force Recon in 1965, but it was fast approaching, and after I left-flat on my back-there was ONE jump and that was a disaster. I knew some who made that jump. What a wreck they describe!
2) A BAR weighs 20 pounds and it was all a man could do to struggle along with the BAR and 200 rounds in mags...and we DID NOT carry them into RVN in 1965, so I don't think they were there in 1968.
3)We used fullauto M-14's and very few men could hold one down on full auto...so it was almost always semi fire. We had a few M-79's, maybe 6 in the whole Co.
4) we had a few 12 guage shot guns in 65, never heard of a 16 being in Country.
5) Unless these guys stole revolvers off the Air Force, no one in the Marine corps carried a .38. All 1911A-1's. And "fireing a 45 in each hand"? Give me a break!
6) It was really hard to get 40 klicks from friendlies, even in 65....and I was out as far as Laos...from Chu Lai.
7) On my next point, I'm a little fuzzy as I wasn't in the Navy..but I think we were a Task Force, not a Marine Amphib Force, as the heading on the Col's Letter indicates. I know for sure we left the States as RLT 7 3rd Marine Div. (Rein) as I just looked at my old orders, (yup, still got them in the blouse pocket of the greens I wore on my last day on active duty.) We later became the 1st Marine Division.....again. Anyway, I just don't think I missed something there. We were always BATTALION LANDING TEAM or RLT (REGIMENTAL LANDING TEAM)
And last I would like to say that I killed some NVA in August of 1965...proven hardcore NVA, I think they were from the 356th division. They had on grey/green pants, black pajama ****s and greenish bush hats. Over a period of several days we came into contact with quite a bunch of these slopes and they all looked alike, AND NONE HAD BRASS ON HIS UNIFORM OR INDICATION OF RANK (but one did have a pistol-an old Webley) OR LITTLE RED STARS, or beannie hats with propellers on top.
So I would like to pronounce this "investigation" to be complete BS.
Thank you for your indulgence and thank you for serving your Country thru all of the adversities it has faced.
Semper Fi.

USMC Recon
06-16-10, 05:01 PM
Hello Class of 65. I just read your post and am a little confused. Were you with 1st Reconnaissance Bn or the 7th Marines? If with Recon, were you in Charlie Company 1st Recon in Nam? I'd thought that in 1965, only 3rd Recon was in Nam. It was several months before my arrival but I thopught 1st Reconnaissance Bn didn't arrive in Nam until about March of 1966. As I said, that was a little before my time and I could be mistaken.

Yes, I remember the jump very well. It was Recon Team Club Car led by Gunny Walter Webb on a jump into Happy Valley. I seem to remember it was on the night of 2 Sep 1967; that was during Operation Swift but the junmp was not associated with that operation. The Corpsman was my friend, HM-2 Mike Laporte. He was MIA on that jump and I still wear his MIA band today.

When I first got to Bravo Company, I was issued the M-79. If we had motre than a 4-5 man patrol, we always carried one M-79 and 1 M-60 (I traded the M-79 for the M-60 when the gunner rotated home). We also had Ithaca 12 ga shotguns available and the patrol leader could carry that instead of an M-16 at his discretion. I also don't remember any 38cal revolvers being carried....and why would one want to carry a .38 instead of a .45 anyway?

Sgt Leprechaun
06-16-10, 05:37 PM
'65, how about filling out a profile for us? Part of the site rules my friend.

v/r
Sgt Lep

Class of 65
06-16-10, 05:46 PM
:flag:Hey, USMC Recon:
I was trying to answer you and it kept kicking me out of the window, so......
How about this?
I was a little confused too. I was with Drawer 16, DaNang in 1964 but was on board 2 different ships...not in DaNang. We had men on shore before the "incident" but I only knew a few of them and I have no idea where any of them went except those that I went ashore with in 1965 at Xa Qui Nhon. Later we were moved to Chu Lai. We were in 1965, C-1-Recon, (when the 7th Marines shipped from CONUS, the whole Recon Bn went with them-Charlie was assigned to 3rd Bn) 3rd Bn. 7th Marine Regt, attached to the 3rd Marine Div. We sailed out of the CONUS as 1st Div. As the 7th Marines have always been, and arrived in the South China as 3rd Marine Div (Rein) There were 3rd Marine Div Recon people in country when the 7th Marines got there. They came in at DaNang in Mar. 65. I was in DaNang one day and ran into two guys I'd been with on the Dishenko in 1964. Anyway, confusing there for a while as to who we were, that is for sure. 1st Force, 1st Bn and 3rd Bn were all joined and were called 1st Recon Battalion in March of 66. You are right on that. I was gone in Feb. but I knew it happened from talking to guys that came thru the hospital in Guam when I was there for 3 months in 66.
As I said the only jump I knew about was after I left and was sent to Guam, via Clark AFB.
My comment about the .38's was that only if they were stolen from the Air Force did these guys have any as they were the only service with .38's. As a team leader/squad ldr. and later a platoon Sgt. I had a 1911A1 .45 ACP, just like all the other Marines who had a side arm. One of the reasons I called that story BS. And he was "running thru them firing one in each hand?" Give me a break!!
Semper Fi

Class of 65
06-16-10, 05:50 PM
:iwo:Sgt Leprechan,
I thought that was what I did yesterday when I signed up.

Sgt Leprechaun
06-16-10, 06:17 PM
I'm afraid there is nothing there, sir.

v/r

Bruce59
06-16-10, 06:27 PM
All that I can tell you is in 1960 and 61 3rd Recon did have Bars. I know because I carried one for a couple of months. The only change in
weapons was the M-60 about half though my year with A co. 3rd Recon.
All other weapons were still being used, grease guns ect. in 61.

Lynn2
06-17-10, 08:12 AM
"1st Force, 1st Bn and 3rd Bn were all joined and were called 1st Recon Battalion in March of 66."

65, I will log this one up to a bad memory.

Yes as I remember it was C-1st Recon that became part of 3rd Recon early on in the war.

Did you know Doc Brunt or Doc Armstrong?

But this quote above is just wrong. 1stForce was for a while a letter company within 3rdRecon. 3rdReconBn never became part of 1st Recon BN. Not in March 1966. Not any time during the war.

I was in 3rdRecon Alpha co during that time period.

3rdRecon until late august or Sept operated out of DaNang until they moved to the DMZ to stay (except for B company they were not housed in DaNang they were up north PhuBai---I think these guys were at once C 1st Recon but my memory is not 100% on this)

When 3rdBn went north to Quang Tri to stay 1stRecon BN came to DaNang and took over my bunk at Camp Reasoner.


I have posted this before but in 65-66 we did have at least a few BAR's in the BN. At least 3 times I saw it taken out on patrol on my Teams.

The grease gun, carbine, and the Thompson SMG were also available. I carried at one time or another the grease gun and the carbine. But more often than not it was the 12 gage for me.

Lynn2
06-17-10, 08:31 AM
65, if you were in C 1stRecon does this mean you then became B 3Recon?

If so I have a question.

Were you on the patrol in June 1966 were a large (large by Recon standards) patrol ran into a much larger force of NVA and had a MarineKIA-BNR?

Or the next day when the entire B co went back to recover the body?

My best friend from Lejuene Doc Roach was killed on that 2nd patrol. His first and only firefight.

Class of 65
06-17-10, 09:59 AM
:iwo:Sgt Leprechan,
I thought that was what I did yesterday when I signed up.


I keep getting kicked off that page. I have completed it 3 times now and it throw as flag up on me and blows the page clean. Ideas?:usmc:

Class of 65
06-17-10, 10:06 AM
Hey Lynn 2
The changes you are talking about undoubtedly happened at the times you've given but as I said, I was outta there by March, 66. W had people transferred from Chu Lai to 3rd Recon at or near DaNang during Dec 65 and Jan 66. I was gone from RVN when Ssgt Howard got hit...if that's the patrol you're talking about. Didn't know either corpsman your asking about.

Lynn2
06-17-10, 10:53 AM
"I was gone from RVN when Ssgt Howard got hit...if that's the patrol you're talking about."

Nope the one I was asking about was up in PhuBai. And that was 3Recon not 1stRecon.

Brunt and Armstrong were both 1stRecon Docs in the states before they came to VN.

But I know how it is. You know the guys in your plt. You may know the guys in your company. What happens in another company may as well be happening to someone on the Moon for all you know. Another company can be a different world.

Except for a Doc or two I bet I did not know one guy from Delta company. And for 13 months they were housed not more than a few 100 meters from me.

I remember well when the Howard patrol got hit. We were getting radio reports of some sort up in Reasoner as those guys fought for their lives.

Doc

Class of 65
06-17-10, 11:30 AM
Ya, I knew some but not all of the guys in Charlie Co and nobody in the others. It always seemed like chance meeting even with some of your own Co. I do remember running into a guy I went to boot camp with who came in to help remove the tracks that were knocked out on the Van Troung in Aug 65. Haven't seen him since...Chance meet.
I just had to respond to that stupid "investigation" letter. I usually try not to dig stuff out from under the carpet, if you know what I mean. I spent 25 years in hell, 3 marriages, lots of hangover mornings. I was diagnosed with PTSD (no s***?) 18 years ago, and I do OK most of the time, but the more I leave it alone, the better off I am.
Semper Fi

USMCmailman
06-27-10, 08:36 PM
In the Nam in early 1968, after my first fire fight at LZ Stud, I traded my M-16 with an ARVN officer for his .45 caliber grease gun. Best deal of my 13 Months in the bush! Back then the M-16's jammed every other magazine! I caught hell when I went to turn that in before I rotated back to the World!:scared:

Sgt Leprechaun
06-27-10, 08:37 PM
LOL. Too bad you had to.....(Turn it in I mean..)

USMCmailman
06-27-10, 09:03 PM
Yes it is Sarge. The Capt. on the flight line gave me two choices. Leave the gun or stay in Nam! I think I picked the right one! Besides, I have an M-4 now that is dead on at 400yds.

Sgt Leprechaun
06-27-10, 09:12 PM
LOL!!! Wise choice, then. Grease gun was fun to shoot (I had one as a 'track crewman in my Army reserve days) but heavy and a PIA.

USMCmailman
06-27-10, 09:25 PM
It was a handy weapon when we got overrun during Tet of 1968. It was pretty accurate at 25 feet!

Zulu 36
06-27-10, 09:36 PM
We had a bunch of M-3s in my squadron. They were supposed to be for the pilots if the whole unit had to go infantry like Wake Island. They are fun to shoot. Usually whoever stood pay guard was armed with one.

Sgt Leprechaun
06-27-10, 09:39 PM
No freakin doubt about being fun to shoot! And that round is deadly at freakin close range for sure.

USMCmailman
06-27-10, 10:07 PM
The only drawback, when you run out of ammo it's real hard to "fix bayonets"! Thank God for my K-Bar!

New Corps
06-30-10, 09:51 PM
I find myself falling into this a little late in the game but it is necessary to defend those that need defending (that's what Marines do) especially some of our misinformed brothers and sisters out there. Clearly this story is a hoax, I will be sure to crush the dreams of the young boot-tennant that sent this to me via the leadership line (that's current day terminology for e-mail).

I feel it necessary to point out that there are a lot of old corps fuddy duddys that are quick to put people down for believing something that they can see as false. I'm not sure if they re-painted the yellow foot prints for my generation but we didn't get un-ending knowledge by standing there so saying that anyone that has the title of Marine should know this is BS... I think that statement is BS. It's that same superiority attitude that the stupid bring to the field with them. Remeber wayyyyyy back when... complacency kills. It hurts deeply to think that the torch that I so freely took from my predecessors (that's most of you) is burning with quick judgements based on no information. Keep reading, I do make a good point.

Yes there are Marines out there passing this on as legit (my Lieutanant is one of them), from the evidence that I have read in just this thread alone has brought me to a conclusion. The reports look good, way better than some ground pounder could make, it would have to be someone familiar with Naval Letter Format (sound like this WO Blackburn previously explained?) There are of course a few things missing but to someone that was not in the vietnam war, which I have to point out there is no one left on active duty that was in Vietnam, this would look legit. To someone with no Admin experience, this looks pretty damn good too. With all of the rediculous heroic stories of Marines long past, and most of them sound like BS too, it has become difficult to pick the corn out of the crap.

This is something you should think about before you put someone down for believing the word of another Marine. I didn't quite believe it myself which is why I wanted to do the research but I was 50/50. It looked like it could have happened but seemed a bit far fetched (not unusual for a war story though). It actually hurts to think that the men that I'm supposed to be carrying on their legend act this way and would think this way about other Marines to include me. I'm a huge trash talker, but when I put it to someone it's very well thought out and based on solid observations. This attack is not very well thought out and uncalled for. On a brighter note, I will disseminate to all appropriate authorities that this is bogus.

Semper

- SSgt A

p.s. If I hurt your feelings... too bad, be a man... no, be a Marine.

Sgt Leprechaun
06-30-10, 10:10 PM
Just FYI, good observations. However, a good ways back, this was pretty well de-bunked (by myself and others).

Welcome to the site!

v/r

New Corps
06-30-10, 10:16 PM
Thanks, I had two goals. Either to find out if the story was a load of crap or not. If it was crap I would want the info backing that up, if it was real I would want more info so I could be more informed than those that I am forced to call my peers. You guys did a stand up job of really figuring this thing out. Some of the posts that I read I thought I was reading a script for an up coming episode of NCIS. Personnel requests and things of the like. Very resourseful. Somewhat impressed when I read it. I don't even feel the need to look elsewhere, the information came from so many different sources I think that it is good enough for me to sign off. I can't wait for tomorrow when I publicly humiliate the Lieutenant by crushing his wet dream about death and destruction. Then I'm going to tell him the 13 mile hump he has planned is stupid too.

Sgt Leprechaun
06-30-10, 10:23 PM
LOL!!!!! That's hilarious.

Don't crush his spirit too much...just make him do his frakkin research before he fowards crap out like that in the future.

You are having waaay too much fun with this, I fear....

New Corps
06-30-10, 11:31 PM
When busting the young butter bar's balls it's always in good fun, but he definitely asked for it. I have yet to get this guy because I have been biding my time waiting for the right moment and right circumstances. With all the research you gentlemen did on this there is no question in my mind that this is the subject, it will be a learning lesson too... I'll make it like a "you got to check your stuff before you hit forward on the e-mail" lesson. Plus there are a number of other things that are going to come out too. And for the record, this is not just fun and games, it is my job as a SNCO to mentor the young platoon commander to be a good officer. I just happen to have fun with my job, which is why I still do it and do it well. Kudos go to all who gathered info on this.

This brings up another point, someone with moderator status or whatever power that be should make a forum discussing the "Leadership by E-Mail" thing. That seems to be the perferred method of communication these days. Kinda weird.

Sgt Leprechaun
07-01-10, 04:08 AM
Actually, SSgt, that's the first I've heard of this. YOU have every right, as a Marine, to start a thread in Chesty's Hooch re: this topic. Sounds like you are certainly the 'duty expert' at the moment.

Lynn2
07-01-10, 07:55 AM
"Yes there are Marines out there passing this on as legit (my Lieutanant is one of them),"


With respect I disagree. This has nothing to do with having been in VN, having been in Recon, or having gone up against the NVA.

It shows what happens all so often when people read something. They do not put on their thinking hat. They spend not one critical moment thinking about what they are actually reading and whether it makes sense or not.

And they believe just because they see it in print.

And maybe they just want to believe.

I find it hard to think that any Marine who had spent more than a few minutes under real fire and has seen how real Marines acts in a fire fight and how a real enemy acts in a fire fight could read this and think........makes sense to me. That would just be plain stupidity.

And if you had not yourself seen the elephant I am assuming here that Marines have at least done some basic reading about combat. They have read about recon teams in trouble, they read about KSCB, or Tet or good lord the horror of Operation Buffalo. And if not VN then some other reading about some other fighting.

Because I showed this write up without comment to a Navy SWO in the family and he just laughed. He knew from first look it was bs.

Any Marine IMO should be able to do the same.

This write up is so far from reality that just common sense should have been enough.

Lynn2
07-01-10, 09:05 AM
Yesterday I was trying to do a little leg work for a son who was trying to find info re. his winger father in VN. I ended up on the popasmoke site.

Go to their VN forum. Read what those chopper crew guys write about Recon teams in trouble.

"emergency recon extraction"---- being some of the absolute worst words they heard as they were given a mission.

Danger and terror for those crews. Danger and terror for the Team.

But then these posts written by the crew members were not written as an obvious joke.

FistFu68
07-01-10, 12:01 PM
:usmc: :thumbup: :usmc:

rickyracer
07-01-10, 01:21 PM
Corporal Alvin L. BLACKBURN Jr.
Sounds like a very motivated Marine.

Lynn2
07-01-10, 01:54 PM
"Brutus (investigator's comment - "Brutus" was an alias by which the accused....."

Right here the author nails the difference between Reconners and the rest of the Corps.

You guys had nicknames

We had an alias

Baaaaaaaaaaaaa:cool:

Lynn2
07-01-10, 01:57 PM
.

Lynn2
07-01-10, 02:04 PM
"The BAR was actually on fire so Brutus picked up Spook's 16 gauge and with his own K-Bar began kicking *ss and cutting throats. We didn't stick around to count but I figure he must've got 40 or 50 by himself. About 2 dozen of 'em threw guns down....."



If there is a real Marine Lt out there that read this and believed it all I can say is that there are some rock stupid Lt's in the Corps these days.

Lynn2
07-01-10, 02:24 PM
"Then he loaded 2 shotguns, strapped them to each leg. He took off his clothes and ours to reduce weight. All he had was a belt a .38, 2 shotguns, 2 K-Bars and some ammo."


Yep that old reconner trick of taking off all your clothes in the jungle to save weight.:sick:

You know I have seen another version of this write up. Also posted by Fontman on another forum. That one had them killing prisoners 2x. The first with the shots to the head like in this write up. But the 2nd time was even better.

They had put explosives around the necks or heads of a whole line of prisoners maybe 13-15 of them (the 3 or 4 of the Marines that were left did) and while marching them they got hit by another company of NVA. While the 3 or 4 of them were fighting off this whole company of NVA Blackburn blew up all the pow's.

That version also had not one but two different groups of NVA throwing down their weapons and surrendering at different times

This version has been edited for sure

Some truly great writing

Lynn2
07-01-10, 02:46 PM
The original version as posted by Fontman on another forum. I did not realize to just now how much had been edited out of the version that started this thread. The White memo is the same in both This version is sooooo much better:

"I am aware of my right under the Uniformed Code of Military Justice and the Constitution of the United States, and I voluntarily make this statement. I am aware that the facts presented below may be used in my court. I am aware that I have been charged with thirteen counts of murder in the first degree. The below stated events are true to the best of my recollection.

I was assigned team leader of DAGGER II, a recon insert team with a mission of ambushing enemy probe patrols.] Drop point coordinates 81964373. Ambush coordinates 82514316. Extraction was to be at 0320 22 December 1968 at 80403915. I knew that the nearest friendly unit was approximately 40KM southwest. Team consisted of myself and seven others; JOHN R. BAKER, WILLIAM E. COTT, STEVE R. KEARNS, JOHN E. JACKSON, G. WASHINGTON JR (SPOOK), JOHN W. WELLINGTON (DUKE) AND MARK C. BRADLEY. I set the men in a hill position and began watch. Instead of a patrol I spotted a point element of about seven men leading a column of four abreast. I estimated about 100 to 110 enemy. We were in the direct lines of march. It was too late to retreat so I decided just to fight it out. I did not break radio silence as it would have given our position away. I was action man. When the enemy point had passed, I waited for what I hoped to be the command element. The forces were not Viet Cong but regular NVA forces. When the one with the most brass showed up, I started shooting. Steve was on my;-.left and was blasting the flank, John covered the rear, and got the point team before getting cut in half by a LAW. Jack took right flank and was firing .45s from both hands; he was shot 37 times that I could count. Duke was braced against a tree with his BAR before a grenade got him'. Mark got about three shots off before he was shot to death, 18 holes in chest and stomach. Spook was backing with Bill and pumping buckshot like crazy. He was shot to death, undetermined number of hits to head and 19 to body. About 27 NVA surrendered after about five minutes, but Bill lost his cool when Spook bought it and kept firing. I knocked Bill down and he came around okay later. I had 2 men left, 15 POW's and a ****ed up radio. I knew all the firing would bring gook reinforcements, so I tied the POW's together and booby trapped them, each with a M26. I buried our rounds and then we started to march out. We marched until I thought I had found a defendable spot and then camped. Steve was on watch about 4:00 am when sappers hit us. There was about 20 of them. The fight didn't last long but Bill caught a round in the thigh and Steve was covered with shrapnel all over his back. Two POW's had attempted to run and had been decapitated. I treated mine the best I could. I had a choice, save my men or bring out the POW's. I knowingly shot each POW in the head. I made a litter for Bill and started dragging and carrying my men out. I do not remember how long I walked or even if I ever stopped. I remember following the sun or stars and I knew I had to get Bill back before infection took his leg. I did not encounter the enemy again. We finally made it to some Army outfit who took Steve and Bill to Danang and me to Hill 63, our CP. I was then sent to a hospital ship where I made (MISSING SENTENCE)
I'd do it again given the opportunity. I have no other statement to make at this time.

ALVIN L. BLACKBURN
CORPORAL
23 13 039
UNITED STATE MARINE CORPS

WILLIAM W. WHITE
COLONEL
031 562
UNITED STATES MARINE CORPS

==
I, William E. MARCOTT, make the following statement on my own free will, fully aware of the consequences of false or incomplete statements:

I was a member of a seven man recon insert team on 21 December 1968. I don't know exactly where we were other than behind known enemy forces. We were to be parachuted in and set up an ambush and then be heli-lifted out. My team leader was Cpl A. L. BLACKBURN. I have been on about eleven missions with Cpl BLACKBURN. After we all landed, Cpl BLACKBURN insured that nothing was broke and he put us in position. I was the third man on the right and in the beginning was supposed to waste the rear guards of the enemy patrol. Mark was on my left. Spook was across from me. Brutus (investigator's comment - "Brutus" was an alias by which the accused was identified by his counterparts) passed the word that instead of a patrol, a whole ****ing company was drawing in on us. We couldn't call for a lift-out cause the gooks were too close, so we just laid in and waited. The next five minutes happened so fast I can just relate what I saw and did. If I was thinking, I don't remember it. There was about 100 to 120 of the ****ers and only 8 of us, but it was sort of a **** or go blind situation. Brutus let the point go by and just as the command element came within the area of fire, he stood up and started throwing lead. He was firing the BAR off his thing with one hand and throwing grenades with the other. All I remember was Brutus running through the bodies blowing the slant-eyed ****ers away. It was really happening too fast, but I know he got at least 50 of them by himself. Somehow Spook and I got back to back and were cutting them down with our blasters when Spook caught some in the face and I guess I wigged cause all I remember for awhile is Spooks brains running all over my feet. The next thing was I was sitting against a tree and Brutus was shaking the **** out of me. There was blood all over him and me. He had blood pouring from his ears and nose and mouth. I finally got my **** together and there was only three of us left; me, Brutus and Steve. Steve was going around easing the wounded's pain with the 45. We tied the 15 gooks together with parachute cord and booby-trapped each of 'em with a M26. We marched for about 14 hours before he finally let us stop. We were taking turns standing watch that night. I didn't know what time it was but **** started going off everywhere. I just started shooting when I saw this little ****er right in front of me. He saw me then, too, and I guess we both fired at the same time. I cleaned his ears but caught a solid in my thigh. I thought my balls were blown off. The whole fight didn't last more than a minute. Brutus put a bandage on me. Two of the gooks had tried to run and the grenades had pulled their heads. I was hurting something bad and Brutus gave me some space juice and I took off. The next two days are just spot memories. Sometimes Brutus would be carrying me and sometimes dragging me on this stretcher thing he had made. The one thing that I really remember was the way he looked. Man, the blood was caked all over him and his eyes were as white as a Spook when he got scared. We hadn't eaten for 3 days but he kept going. Brutus did what he had to do and if it wasn't for him I'd been maggot food. It isn't fair that he should get burned for saving me and Steve.

THIS STATEMENT IS TRUE ACCORDING TO NY MEMORY. IT CONSISTS TO TWO PAGES.

WILLIAM E. MARCOTT
LANCE CORPORAL
UNITED STATES MARINE CORPS
24 13 049


==
I, Steve A. KEARNS, make the following statement on my own free will fully aware of the consequences of false or incomplete statements.

I was a member of a seven man recon team termed DAGGER IT. Our mission was to parachute somewhere forward of friendly positions and set up an ambush. We were to be heli-lifted out. The date was 21 December 1968. My team leader was Cpl A. L. BLACKBURN 23 13 039 and had been my leader for six other missions. We jumped on the right coordinates but dumb ass Duke landed in a tree. Brutus (investigator's comment - "Brutus" was an alias by which the accused was identified by his counterparts) had to climb up and cut him down and then he set us in. This was to have been my last mission before skying to the world and I was really shaking my ****. I was set in across from Brutus with Jack, Duke and John flowing left and Mark; Spook, and Bill flowing right. Brutus told", us a whole ****ing gook company was coming instead of a patrol but, we couldn't call for an extract because the enemy was too close. Brutus told us to lay quiet and wait till he moved. I had a 12 gauge and two 38s but I wish I had a ****ing tank. They must've been only an inch away before he stood up and he had the barrel of the BAR in this gook's guts and cut 'em in half. For about five minutes there was nothing but lead, **** and guts in the air. Bill and Spook were backing and blowing gooners left and right. Mark was firing bloopers from about ten feet and blew his own ass to the deck several times. Duke was lying with a BAR and was cutting loose about balls high. I don't remember John or Jack. Brutus had a BAR screaming from his thigh and throwing grenades like candy at a ****ing parade. I thought maybe Brutus had cracked his marbles but he just calmly waded through the blood and **** shouting orders for us and melting his BAR. I didn't see it, but Spook bought it and by that time Brutus had made it to where Spook and Bill was. The BAR was actually on fire so Brutus picked up Spook's 16 gauge and with his own K-Bar began kicking ass and cutting throats. We didn't stick around to count but I figure he must've got 40 or 50 by himself. About 2 dozen of 'em threw guns down but Bill just kept blasting them before Brutus knocked his ass down. There was only three of us, me, Brutus and Bill. I finished off the wounded and since the radio was busted and we knew reinforcements would be coming for the gooners, we got hours before we or 5 in the morning when they hit us. It only lasted a minute or so and all I did was keep shooting. I was so ****ing tired I could care less. Bill was hollering that his balls were blown off and two of the POWs had tried to run but the traps had blown their heads off. Somewhere, I don't remember when, I caught shrapnel in my back, ass and legs and the pain started coming on when Brutus got to me from Bill. He kept telling Bill that he would make a cute faggot if he would get false teeth and a beard. I distinctly remember that cause-Bill was *****ing that his balls were gone and Brutus was trying to make him feel better and for some reason I felt like laughing... I know it sounds crazy but i was laying face down about five feet from them and Brutus was holding Bill's balls and was calling him all sorts of dumb ****ing names trying to convince him that they were still attached. I guess I passed out because the next thing was Brutus standing over me trying to stop my bleeding. # it was had to tell whose blood was whose since he was bleeding all over. Neither Bill nor I could walk and we still had 13 POWs so Brutus did the only thing he could. He had a choice; take the POWs out or us. I don't know what I would have done. Brutus just looked at Bill, then me, and I was really scared, more scared than when the whole company of gooks came at us, because he had blood everywhere and was shaking and his eyes, God, man, his eyes were white. I'm not ****ting you white. Like a robot he walked up to each one and said "God forgive me" or something like that and shot each one in the head. Then he loaded 2 shotguns, strapped them to each leg. He took of his clothes and ours to reduce weight. All he had was a belt, a 38, 2a shotguns, 2 K-Bars and some ammo. He had used all of our first aid ****. He made a litter out of branches and belts and he alternated between carry one of us and dragging the other. We hadn't eaten for several days and I was flashing off and on but every time I woke up we were still moving. One of the last things I remember before waking up in the cross was staring at his back; I was lying face down on this stretcher thing, and seeing the dried blood caked over the straps on his shoulders. Without bull ****ting, I don't think I could have done it. I owe him my life and so does Bill. If they burn him I'll be the first in line to waste the bastards that try it... and that's no threat, that's a blood oath.

THIS STATEMENT IS TRUE ACCORDING TO MY MEMORY. IT CONSISTS OF TWO PAGES

STEVE A. KEARNS PRIVATE
UNITED STATES MARINE CORPS"

Lynn2
07-01-10, 06:03 PM
Just ignore my ramblings but I cannot help myself. These Blackburn threads are my all time favs

Something I assume you Marines already knew. From another forum:

": Troy Price on June 03, 2008, 05:53:56 PM <hr> This stemmed from a Murder investigation and ended in the recommendation for the Medal of Honor. Cpl Blackburn is a Marine Corps legend; Range Control at Camp Lejeune is named "BLACKBURN".

Once you read this the reason will become evident."

New Corps
07-01-10, 10:19 PM
This is an ongoing "fish story". My lieutenant sending this out was not the first I heard of this story. I wasn't sure why it seemed different until now. It's because there are extended versions. Those of us on active duty now need to start cracking down on it. I have no doubt when I return from leave he is going to be standing in front of them reading as if it were the word of god and "you Marines need to learn a lesson from this" blah blah "never quit" blah blah. Then he's going to want to drag my poor lance corporals on some rediculously long death march.

Though there are some that don't believe it, there are just as many that will think it's real. I don't think it has anything to do with who you are. Some will believe it and some won't. I admit, the first time I looked at it I thought it was real until minutes later when I noticed the discrepancies. Some will be blinded by the fact that it is really a good read. You can't blame someone for believing something. There have been many religious debates with the same exact circumstances. In the end, bashing is pointless. You should instead act as a Marine and correct a problem when you see one.

On a brighter note, I would like to take this opportunity to make someone feel old (this should be quite a few in here)
I really liked the conversation about the guns, naturally I love guns, but alas, I do not know the joy of firing the BAR. In fact, the only time I've even seen one was when I went to the National Marine Corps Museum. I've never even seen an M-60 in person. I did have the pleasure of firing a modernized version of the M-14 though. Take the wood stock away and add carbon fiber and ABS plastic with a 50 power scope and you have the designated marksman rifle (DMR) change those same parts to aluminum alloy and add a telescoping stock and an even more taxpayer draining scope and you get the new enhanced marksmanship rifle (EMR). That's the rifle I got to shoot. Just 5 rounds and I thought I was in heaven. Since I have no experience with any of the other weapons. I would have to vote for the M-14. Just if anyone is still keeping score. Oh wait. I forgot I did use a bar in a video game once. Now if that doesn't make you feel old then nothing will.

Lynn2
07-02-10, 07:48 AM
"Though there are some that don't believe it, there are just as many that will think it's real."

You have no idea unless you do some serious internet searching how widespread this story has become over the past few years.

It has taken root in virtually every MC forum, from what you and others have said also on AD, various other military forums, gun forums, political forums, some kind of sales forum, and facebook pages of wannabes and or Marines. And that is just with an hour of searching.

Blackburn at least in some quarters has become a Living Marine Corps Legend as real as Manila John and Chesty......more real in many cases with the younger crowd.

Yes there are people out there who have no clue who Mitchell Page is but see Alvin Blackburn as a real life true world hero. If that does not bring a tear to your eye.

This also shows what passes for truth and scoop on the internet. Someone reads something they do not understand, they repackage it, and send it on and it takes a life on of its own. Hardly anyone stopping to ask if it could be real.

It happens on the political forum all the time.

This write up is real because its simplistic.

Its real because it tells us how we want the world to be. Simple and easy to understand.

Who does not get a hardon thinking of 8 American boys, without helmets, without flak jackets, without cover, without fighting holes, without cleared fields of fire, without the high ground, without air support, without any big guns to call on, and without a radio that is turned on, running into 200 of some of the hardest fighters Americans have ever faced and whipping them out?

Killing them all and having almost 50% of those Americans alive at the end of the day.

The Green Hornet, BatMan, and the Hulk together have nothing on Blackburn and this band of heroes.

People want simplicity. And when our wars turn complicated and not running according to plan people get upset. They demand a simple solution. Nuke them being a not uncommon call.

What this all says about civilians and wannabes and their view of war and combat is one thing.

What it says about Marine Corps Snuffys, NCO's and Officers is quite another.

Hopefully it only says that some of them are not good readers. Because the other alternative is very scary.

Unless of course some would argue that a recon team in the jungle on a combat mission would in fact strip off all their clothes to save weight?:confused:

New Corps
07-03-10, 07:07 PM
"Though there are some that don't believe it, there are just as many that will think it's real."

You have no idea unless you do some serious internet searching how widespread this story has become over the past few years.

It is certainly true that there would have to be a little bit if research on this to definitively day that it's half and half or even use a percentage at all but at least something like that has the potential to having a number put to it. Saying something like if you are a Marine or ever were you would know this was false? Now that's not even close to anything that could be considered a provable fact. It is called a superiority complex.

I said what I said because it has a basis in reality. It's interesting that you would quote me and try to dismiss it before you would do the same for the statement that would put down untold numbers of Marines past and present. From what I understand, this isn't a bash forum, it's for the document in question.

albdagger11
01-07-11, 10:29 PM
Really---please explain the 30 cal carbines, 45 Thompsons, Stevens 10 gauge shotguns, 870 shotguns no plug, airdales and 38's grunts and 45's SKS's, 3 versions of the AK47, 3 versions and makers of the M-16, M-14's both full and simi auto and yes there were some BAR's---you don't have a clue and I only listed a small sample of what we used there!!!!!

albdagger11
01-07-11, 10:41 PM
Really???????

Class of 65
01-08-11, 11:07 AM
You may well have had all that weaponry, I wasn't there in 68. I was there in 64 and 65. We were still supposed to do our job dressed like good conventional Marines. We carried a little extra stuff, but not Rambo sized loads of un-conventional weapons.
We took casualties because of the stupidity of command, dressing in starched utilities and with white skivy shirts making the perfect triangle at the throut, so we changed as soon as we were out of sight of command. But we didn't change weapons, except for the 1911's coming out and a few Winchester 97's being assembled after coming out of a rucksack.
Old Corps...don't disparage it. We did what we did under great adversity, most created by starched non-combatants from 8th and "I"

Sgt Leprechaun
01-08-11, 06:43 PM
We have beaten this one, literally to death over the years. The entire story (at the beginning of the thread) has been de-bunked and proven to be completely wrong numerous times.

Closed, for the good of the order.